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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 00:21:50

Title: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 00:21:50: [attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Asininity on Tue, 05 May 2015, 01:34:20: I'm a really big fan of the Tex Beetle's layout. 4U spacebars are a rarity but it's not as if they are nonexistent. Some recent key sets have had optional 4U spacebars, including the 1976 set if I recall correctly.

(http://i.imgur.com/HBbCERs.jpg)

Another option is a dedicated arrow "pad" like the Six Shooter PCB or the TechKeys Programmable Keyboard Card. I'm not a big fan of function arrow keys. I find them somewhat cumbersome and inconvenient, that's just my opinion. Which is why whenever I get my POK3R I'll probably carry around my Six Shooter with it. The second option would be more preferable than the first. I think I'd prefer to have traditional dedicated arrow keys in the traditional orientation, however. Which returns to why I like the layout of my Tex so much.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Defect on Tue, 05 May 2015, 05:49:47: I use the key immediately to the right of the space bar as FN key and use [ ; ' and Enter as arrows. Page up and page down and home and end are the keys nearby, like L, K, ,, .
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 05 May 2015, 12:16:07: Quote from: Asininity on Tue, 05 May 2015, 01:34:20
I'm a really big fan of the Tex Beetle's layout. 4U spacebars are a rarity but it's not as if they are nonexistent. Some recent key sets have had optional 4U spacebars, including the 1976 set if I recall correctly.

Asininity, where did the white space bar come from? I'm using a Beetle at work that has a remarkably similar color scheme to yours and I'd love to switch the stock space out. I think the 4.5 unit bar on the Beetle is my favorite size. I prefer smaller spaces and the Beetles is just barely big enough that it's still usable if you've moved your hand to WASD for gaming. The tiny space on the Minila works fine for typing but it's too small for gaming.

I've been trying out using IJKL for arrows with SpaceFN recently and I really like it. I think my next board may be a 60% without dedicated arrows.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Sigmoid on Tue, 05 May 2015, 13:27:12: Actually, I've recently been thinking about how to program my Infinity once I get it, and ran into the same question. Having an arrow cluster on the left does look useful, especially when coupled with a numpad cluster on the other side. This would enable pretty comfortable spreadsheet editing.

I've never used the HHKB-like arrow cluster shape, so I can't give an opinion whether I'd prefer WASD to it... but WASD is surely more familiar.

Sacrificing LShift for Fn though seems like a huge loss. It gets pretty painful quickly if you only have one shift.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: neverused on Tue, 05 May 2015, 13:47:46: This was my solution to the problem, it's not perfect, but it gets the job done for me. It's my first custom built and still not completely done, but I think you can see what I did here.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/05/3115608087bc12f3fa991b82681fd7d6.jpg)
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:00:10: (http://i.imgur.com/L1iat.jpg)

My favorite layout is the 65% MXMini layout. Still compact but gives you the home/end/pg up/pg down and arrows back.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Baron Von Clop on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:04:33: I would absolutely adore that design if it wasn't for the function keys. :(
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:07:38: Oh ****. I linked the wrong thing. 1 sec.

Sent's 22Mini EX (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35864.msg1626808#msg1626808).

THAT's the layout I wanted to suggest.

(http://i.imgur.com/2bzGQ5i.jpg)
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Applet on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:44:06: I kind of use your "concept 2". I have arrow-keys at wasd in the function layer on my GH60 (revb) and Alps64 60% boards. I use capslock (hold) as function key for my left hand, since I have ctrl in the regular spot. I find wasd for arrow-keys great since I can use it with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the mouse. I also have arrow-keys in the function layer on the right side of the keyboard just in case.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Asininity on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:53:32: Quote from: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 05 May 2015, 12:16:07
Quote from: Asininity on Tue, 05 May 2015, 01:34:20
I'm a really big fan of the Tex Beetle's layout. 4U spacebars are a rarity but it's not as if they are nonexistent. Some recent key sets have had optional 4U spacebars, including the 1976 set if I recall correctly.

Asininity, where did the white space bar come from? I'm using a Beetle at work that has a remarkably similar color scheme to yours and I'd love to switch the stock space out. I think the 4.5 unit bar on the Beetle is my favorite size. I prefer smaller spaces and the Beetles is just barely big enough that it's still usable if you've moved your hand to WASD for gaming. The tiny space on the Minila works fine for typing but it's too small for gaming.

I've been trying out using IJKL for arrows with SpaceFN recently and I really like it. I think my next board may be a 60% without dedicated arrows.

I purchased it from another use in the classified. I believe it is a KBtalKing 60% keyboard kit. However, I'm not sure where user originally purchased it from as the MD buy did not include the smaller spacebar. I could message him and see if he remembers where it originally came from.

I agree with the spacebar size. It is the perfect size for me. I've looked at several layouts for building several custom keyboards and something that puts me off is the occasionally tiny little spacebar. I wonder how much you'll miss arrows one boards without them.

Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:00:10
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/L1iat.jpg)

My favorite layout is the 65% MXMini layout. Still compact but gives you the home/end/pg up/pg down and arrows back.

I absolutely love that layout. I do like the 65% as well.

Quote from: neverused on Tue, 05 May 2015, 13:47:46
This was my solution to the problem, it's not perfect, but it gets the job done for me. It's my first custom built and still not completely done, but I think you can see what I did here.

Show Image
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/05/3115608087bc12f3fa991b82681fd7d6.jpg)

What's it like with such a small spacebar?
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: neverused on Tue, 05 May 2015, 15:03:39: I like it, though I have since changed the second Enter to a spacebar so that the center is a function key, surrounded by spacebars on either side
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: TLExile on Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:54:05: I have my right 1.25 unit keys and ? mapped as my arrow cluster and it seems to work just find in a standard layout
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:57:51: SIGMOID wrote: Sacrificing LShift for Fn though seems like a huge loss. It gets pretty painful quickly if you only have one shift.
Yes, that is a weak point of my layout for people who use LShift. Speaking of me, I don’t use LShift at all, so ...

APPLET wrote: I find wasd for arrow-keys great since I can use it with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the mouse.
Yes, That is the huge advantage compared to Fn-arrows on HHKB layout, which are unpractically on the right side :-(
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 05 May 2015, 17:31:29: Interesting. I personally don't seem to ever use the mouse and the arrows at the same time. Typically I'm using something like the Ctrl-X/C/V with my left hand if I'm using the mouse or arrows keys with my right hand.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: mason on Tue, 05 May 2015, 18:05:23: Quote
I purchased it from another use in the classified. I believe it is a KBtalKing 60% keyboard kit. However, I'm not sure where user originally purchased it from as the MD buy did not include the smaller spacebar. I could message him and see if he remembers where it originally came from.

I got it from MD, it did come with the smaller space bar :)
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 05 May 2015, 18:07:44: I think the Pure Pro has a similar layout to the Beetle. Maybe it was originally from that?
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: rsac on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:17:42: And when you need the arrow keys at the same time as the main keys of the keyboard, in a flash game for instance?
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:33:05: Quote from: rsac on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:17:42
And when you need the arrow keys at the same time as the main keys of the keyboard, in a flash game for instance?

See concept 1. That is why I posted this thread ;-)
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: lookitdisnub on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:47:06: Don't need a tab button?
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:56:56: @lookitdisnub I use tabulator sometimes, not that frequent to grant it a dedicated key on a 60% though. It does it's job pretty well as Fn+space. See diagram. I can recommend this key-combination! In my humble opinion, non-alphas which should have dedicated keys are: arrow keys, shift, enter, fn, alt, ctrl, backspace/del, and esc. The rest is "nice to have", when there is some additional space left on the keyboard.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: rsac on Tue, 05 May 2015, 22:11:13: Quote from: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:33:05
Quote from: rsac on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:17:42
And when you need the arrow keys at the same time as the main keys of the keyboard, in a flash game for instance?

See concept 1. That is why I posted this thread ;-)
The concept 1 is horrible. You need two hands to operate that, you can't use the left hand for the other buttons.

But I was reading the spaceFN thread, and a transparent layer for IJKL seems workable for most of the uses. But in keyboards that have a single key for both thumbs you still can't use space together with the arrows. Some popular commands are LShift+LCtrl+space+z+x+c, for example. Well, it's the huge spacebar fault, mostly.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 22:19:49: @rsac For you it is horrible then. :-) BTW, ever typed with the space-fn concept? It doesn't work for fast typing, because by this concept you need to press and release the spacebar for evoking a space. But when typing quickly, we type the next letter _before_ releasing the spacebar. Therefore the letter won't appear. Space is one of the most frequent characters used. You don't want to cripple that, believe me :-)
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: pr0ximity on Tue, 05 May 2015, 22:31:37: I think my ideal would be Space Fn with HJKL arrows.
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: Joey Quinn on Tue, 05 May 2015, 22:39:39: How about 40% with arrows. ;)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: lookitdisnub on Wed, 06 May 2015, 01:51:29: Quote from: Eszett on Tue, 05 May 2015, 21:56:56
@lookitdisnub I use tabulator sometimes, not that frequent to grant it a dedicated key on a 60% though. It does it's job pretty well as Fn+space. See diagram. I can recommend this key-combination! In my humble opinion, non-alphas which should have dedicated keys are: arrow keys, shift, enter, fn, alt, ctrl, backspace/del, and esc. The rest is "nice to have", when there is some additional space left on the keyboard.

Ah now I see it. I use tab frequently to switch between tabs on chrome and alt+tab
Title: Re: 60% and arrow keys, the everlasting struggle?
Post by: agong8664 on Wed, 06 May 2015, 10:54:52: (http://imgur.com/12TJa9l.jpg)

My solution.