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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: maxlugar on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:00:56

Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:00:56
Welly asked to me post some pics of the key switch in my DSI/Solitek 6600 $50 midnight special so here they are.  As you will see the 6600 uses a four piece simplifed ALPS branded key switch that appears to be identical to the Fukka key switch in every way (except for the ALPS logo).

Here is a pic of the key switch with the case removed:


Here are the four components of the simplified ALPS (aka Fukka) key switch:


Not much electronics in the keyboard.  Here is a pic of the circuit board under the LEDs:


Here is what looks like a crystal oscillator, some resistors and capacitors located on the front of the circuit board, next to the num pad, above the arrow keys:


And here's what I believe is the controller chip, located on the back side of the PCB:


Overall, not a bad keyboard.  Hell, for $50 you get plate-mounted simplified ALPS and none of the transpostion issues that have driven the Wellster to the brink of insanity.  Compared to the the crappy Das (Sorry Ray, the Das really is overprice crap vs.the Filco FKBN104MC/EB), ABS, and Filco Zero, the DSI 6600 is an outstanding value. You just have to tolerate the backward L Enter key and small backspace key.

I still can't relate to you Cult of the Fukka followers.  The Fukkas are OK, but compared to the orginal complicated ALPS, they feel cheap.  We are not naive, the simplified ALPS (Fukkas) were engineered to reduce manufacturing costs, not necessarily improve performance.  However, if some of you feel that the cost reduction resulted in a better performing key switch, more power to ya.  :rolleyes:

I have a couple more pics of the DSI 6600U to post if anyone is interested.
Maybe this could be my very first Wiki contribution...:whoo:
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:04:53
Quote from: maxlugar;118297
Welly asked to me post some pics of the key switch in my DSI/Solitek 6600 $50 midnight special so here they are.  As you will see the 6600 uses a four piece simplifed ALPS branded key switch that appears to be identical to the Fukka key switch in every way (except for the ALPS logo).

Here is a pic of the key switch with the case removed:


Here are the four components of the simplified ALPS (aka Fukka) key switch:


Not much electronics in the keyboard.  Here is a pic of the circuit board under the LEDs:


Here is what looks like a crystal oscillator, some resistors and capacitors located on the front of the circuit board, next to the num pad, above the arrow keys:


And here's what I believe is the controller chip, located on the back side of the PCB:


Overall, not a bad keyboard.  Hell, for $50 you get plate-mounted simplified ALPS and none of the transpostion issues that have driven the Wellster to the brink of insanity.  Compared to the the crappy Das (Sorry Ray, the Das really is overprice crap vs.the Filco FKBN104MC/EB), ABS, and Filco Zero, the DSI 6600 is an outstanding value. You just have to tolerate the backward L Enter key and small backspace key.

I still can't relate to you Cult of the Fukka followers.  The Fukkas are OK, but compared to the orginal complicated ALPS, they feel cheap.  We are not naive, the simplified ALPS (Fukkas) were engineered to reduce manufacturing costs, not necessarily improve performance.  However, if some of you feel that the cost reduction resulted in a better performing key switch, more power to ya.  :rolleyes:

I have a couple more pics of the DSI 6600U to post if anyone is interested.
Maybe this could be my very first Wiki contribution...:whoo:


The pics didn't seem to attach in the body of the message so here they are:
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:05:53
I've actually got a 6600 in the post, hoping to bring back the white-ALPS love I had for my old Focus boards.

Though, honestly, years of Ms have trained me for a smaller enter key and double-size backspace.

Since the 6600 comes in 104 (US) and 109 (JP?) versions, has anyone checked if it can be soldered its way to a M-style layout?
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:12:00
Quote from: Hak Foo;118300
I've actually got a 6600 in the post, hoping to bring back the white-ALPS love I had for my old Focus boards.

Though, honestly, years of Ms have trained me for a smaller enter key and double-size backspace.

Since the 6600 comes in 104 (US) and 109 (JP?) versions, has anyone checked if it can be soldered its way to a M-style layout?


Until very recently, my daily driver was the original IBM PC AT 84-key which has the backwards L shaped Enter key and small backspace key so I actually prefer the key layout on the 6600 over the more modern layout.

Of course, now that I'm using a Filco Cherry Blue, HHKP Pro 2, and Topre Realforce 87U, I'm having difficulties adapting.   :)
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:13:03
Also, are those decaled keys?  :grimace:  Maybe the decals stick poorly and the Arizona heat will make it an Otaku model when it arrives at my door.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:18:55
Quote from: Hak Foo;118302
Also, are those decaled keys?  :grimace:  Maybe the decals stick poorly and the Arizona heat will make it an Otaku model when it arrives at my door.


No, they key labels do not appear to be decals; the lettering appears to be applied in the same fashion as the lettering on the Filco Zero.

The $200 CVT Avant Steller which I bought and promptly returned clearly had decal key labels and did NOT feel at all like the NorthGate Omnikeys of which it is supposedly a clone.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:28:48
max, thanks so much for the pics, very cool of you to post them :)  Ya, this should really go in the keyboard reviews section!  You can drop a pm to imav and ask him to move it... tho since the reviews section is a different layout (ie, "main article" plus discussion in "tab") maybe it wont transfer over directly, I'm not sure.  Do you want to just copy/paste it into a review "article" in the reviews section?


Those are fukkas alright and I'm really happy to see "another fukka".  (And if I had known these were fukkas I would have been  interested in this board much sooner! All along there  had been a $50 fukka under our noses?!). Also thrilled to hear that you're not seeing controller problems. Would you mind doing a credit card test just to see what its limits are? (I know it can still type perfectly well even if it doesnt pass credit card - like the endurapro does for instance- and that would be good enough for me!)

hak foo --

Quote

Since the 6600 comes in 104 (US) and 109 (JP?) versions,


where did you see that it has us and jp versions? the dsi website only seems to show one version -
http://www.notestation.com/fullsizealpsmechanicalswitchkeyboardask-6600.htm

I asked the DSI rep here via a PM if they could acquire a version that had the larger backspace. He said he would get back to me shortly on that.

Quote

 has anyone checked if it can be soldered its way to a M-style layout?


I asked this very same question to max earlier -- I was thinking maybe one could swap the dummy switch under the top of the L of the enter key with the "/" switch (including cut and rewire); they pop on regular keys from another cherry board onto backspace, "/", and enter.  Its worth a shot if a normal US version isnt available.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:33:12
A few months ago, a lot of sellers offering the 6600 had a stock photo, which showed a 109 key layout.

Example:
http://www.thenerds.net/SOLIDTEK.Solidtek_KB_6600ABU_Keyboard.KB6600ABU.html
The descriptions on some sites also have a funny setup of

"104 key keyboard.  Number of keys: 109"
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:36:52
Quote

No, they key labels do not appear to be decals; the lettering appears to be applied in the same fashion as the lettering on the Filco Zero.

on the filco zero, the lettering isnt decals, but it does feel like print rather than laser etching. I'm not 100% sure about that, but you can feel the lettering on your fingertip if you run your finger over the keys lightly. I dont know from other filco reviews if people have noticed the lettering on those coming off. It wouldnt matter to me anyway cuz I'd replace the alps keys on it with aekII keys or other old school keys probably ;)

Quote

I still can't relate to you Cult of the Fukka followers

lol, well its like you said, I guess I feel that the simpler switch wound up being different in a way that isnt awful ;) and kind of neat ;)

hey it can only be a good thing for alps that there are atleast TWO well-loved alps switches (original and fukka) ;)

Quote

I have a couple more pics of the DSI 6600U to post if anyone is interested.


if its anything not covered at the images on the dsi site (http://www.notestation.com/fullsizealpsmechanicalswitchkeyboardask-6600.htm), then sure, would love to see them :)


basically assuming a better controller, I'm already planning on buying this board (note DSI is out of stock until october, altho this board is all over ebay for $45 shipped).  If it can also come in a US layout (ie, large backspace), then thats a bonus; and/or if it can be modded into that layout, I'll do that too. The main thing is the controller :)  If it works better than the costar boards, then I'll have a new daily driver and the zero goes on ebay :) Lol.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 15 September 2009, 23:38:39
Quote from: Hak Foo;118308
A few months ago, a lot of sellers offering the 6600 had a stock photo, which showed a 109 key layout.

Example:
http://www.thenerds.net/SOLIDTEK.Solidtek_KB_6600ABU_Keyboard.KB6600ABU.html
The descriptions on some sites also have a funny setup of

"104 key keyboard.  Number of keys: 109"


the pic there still has a small backspace tho
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:06:04
Quote from: wellington1869;118310



basically assuming a better controller, I'm already planning on buying this board (note DSI is out of stock until october, altho this board is all over ebay for $45 shipped).  If it can also come in a US layout (ie, large backspace), then thats a bonus; and/or if it can be modded into that layout, I'll do that too. The main thing is the controller :)  If it works better than the costar boards, then I'll have a new daily driver and the zero goes on ebay :) Lol.


I'm pretty sure the DSI 6600 is a Costar board.  I don't know if the controller or the firmware is different from the Filco Zero.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:09:28
Quote from: maxlugar;118318
I'm pretty sure the DSI 6600 is a Costar board.  I don't know if the controller or the firmware is different from the Filco Zero.


ugh. Still, they do have some boards that are okay, one hopes this one slipped thru the cracks...


At DSI's site, we see a "mirrored L" enter key:
http://www.notestation.com/fullsizealpsmechanicalswitchkeyboardask-6600.htm

the solidtek version on amazon and buy.com and ebay seems to be the other kind, with the "inverted L" (as opposed to mirrored L):
http://www.notestation.com/fullsizealpsmechanicalswitchkeyboardask-6600.htm

In some ways, the mirrored L (DSI's version)  would be easier to mod. Cuz with the other version, ie, the inverted L, you have to move an extra key next to the enter key if you hack/mod it to look like standard 1401 layout.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:13:53
solidtek website: http://www.solidtekusa.com/index.htm


Here's the 6600 on their website:
http://www.solidtekusa.com/usb.htm#Special Keyboards


The pic there looks like the DSI pic (with the mirrored L):

(http://www.solidtekusa.com/image/6600.jpg)
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:21:53
Quote from: wellington1869;118322
solidtek website: http://www.solidtekusa.com/index.htm


Here's the 6600 on their website:
http://www.solidtekusa.com/usb.htm#Special Keyboards


The pic there looks like the DSI pic (with the mirrored L):

Show Image
(http://www.solidtekusa.com/image/6600.jpg)


Maybe Solitek is the OEM, not Costar.  The 6600 is made in China vs. the Filco Zero and Das which are made (assembled) in Taiwan.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:21:54
Actually the easiest way to make the mirrored L board (the one avail at dsi) useable for a 1401 user, is use autohotkey to remap the "\" on the top row to backspace. Thats it; remap the "\" key functions to another hotkey or swap it with a less used key).  You could even use some modelling clay and turn the backspace keys into a single key.

That would get you functional.  Of course a switch swap would be better but is far more work.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:24:07
Quote from: maxlugar;118323
Maybe Solitek is the OEM, not Costar.  The 6600 is made in China vs. the Filco Zero and Das which are made (assembled) in Taiwan.


fingers crossed... I think there's hope if it means some other company hopefully wrote the firmware from scratch.

I wonder tho, cuz I believe the chain of command goes:
costar -> diatek, solidtek, abs, and other manufactuers -> newegg, elitekeyboards, dsi, and other vendors?

On the other hand, DSi also make their own keyboards as well as selling other folks boards (for instance they also sell a kinesis ergo board, IIRC).  SO maybe they bought from an OEM in this case Solidtek.  I hope. Cuz that would mean there's a chance that solidtek wrote their own firmware independent of costar.

I just emailed solidtek asking if they're associated with costar and asking if there's any chance of a big-backspace version of this board...
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: msiegel on Wed, 16 September 2009, 00:40:25
check it: if the controller is different, then the firmware is very likely different :)

EDIT: i see the controller is just a little black blob. hard to tell what chip that is :-/
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 01:18:50
Is this (max's pic from the 6600U) the same as the holtek?

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4557&d=1253073841)

holtek here:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2836&d=1245735752)


I'll open up the zero-fukka tomorrow and take pics of controller; I expect it is also a holtek.
I cant help but wonder if the abs M1 had a holtek... wouldnt be surprised if it did, given same oem.  I couldnt take that one apart tho since i returned it right away, but if anyone has an M1 they'd like to take apart...

If the 6600U doesnt have a holtek, then maybe we're in luck... its hard to tell from max's pic above (i've never seen a circuit board printed right on top of a controller?!)  tho my guess is they're different. UPDATE: They're different, not just a matter of different packaging I think; 21 pins to a side on the 6600's controller (assuming thats what that is) and 24 pins to a side on the holtek.  Tho who knows.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 16 September 2009, 01:21:55
Did we check FCC IDs yet?
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 01:26:27
also from the look of the leaf (only one set of tabs) in max's pic, these 6600's are white (clicky) fukkas. :) Yay.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4554&d=1253073782)
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 01:29:51
Quote from: Hak Foo;118332
Did we check FCC IDs yet?


you mean on sticker on back of keyboard?  What do those identify anyway?
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: rdh on Wed, 16 September 2009, 01:51:06
Quote from: wellington1869;118335
also from the look of the leaf (only one set of tabs) in max's pic, these 6600's are white (clicky) fukkas. :) Yay.


I see the ALPS logo on the switch housing, so technically they're ALPS switches (type I simplified).  That is: made by ALPS, not by Fukka.

But since the Fukka folks ("Forward", was it?) are said to be using the original ALPS equipment, I suppose that's a distinction without a difference.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 16 September 2009, 02:35:29
Quote from: rdh;118338
I see the ALPS logo on the switch housing, so technically they're ALPS switches (type I simplified).  That is: made by ALPS, not by Fukka.

But since the Fukka folks ("Forward", was it?) are said to be using the original ALPS equipment, I suppose that's a distinction without a difference.


Yes, you are technically, (but not politcally) correct!

To Welly, those are Fukkas.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 11:18:45
Quote from: maxlugar;118345

To Welly, those are Fukkas.


i just like saying fukka. In fact, i doubt i'll ever tire of it, lol.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: talis on Wed, 16 September 2009, 11:37:19
Quote from: wellington1869;118331
Is this (max's pic from the 6600U) the same as the holtek?


I'll open up the zero-fukka tomorrow and take pics of controller; I expect it is also a holtek.
I cant help but wonder if the abs M1 had a holtek... wouldnt be surprised if it did, given same oem.  I couldnt take that one apart tho since i returned it right away, but if anyone has an M1 they'd like to take apart...

If the 6600U doesnt have a holtek, then maybe we're in luck... its hard to tell from max's pic above (i've never seen a circuit board printed right on top of a controller?!)  tho my guess is they're different. UPDATE: They're different, not just a matter of different packaging I think; 21 pins to a side on the 6600's controller (assuming thats what that is) and 24 pins to a side on the holtek.  Tho who knows.


The pin count doesn't really tell you much.  The little black blob is what they call a CoB (Chip On Board), and is just an alternative way to package an IC cheaply since you don't pay for the housing.  The pin counts can be different between CoB and the exact same surface mount component. Its not very likely that its the same, but there's still a possibility.

The fact that its a CoB on a carrier like that is odd, and is probably meant to replace a normal SMT chip that would have gone there without needing to re-design the board.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 12:42:57
for typing transposition errors is the killer.

never heard of the cob, pretty neat. So I learned something today. It looks like a rubber bumped, I feel like picking at it and playing with it. ;)
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: JBert on Wed, 16 September 2009, 14:11:04
I always associate those CoBs with cheap circuits, mostly those to be found in toys which produced sounds.
I ruined quite a few of those back in the day - and now I finally know the term for those blobs.
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 16 September 2009, 17:17:24
Quote from: ripster;118537
Aha - that's where I've seen them before.  I think I had a gift card with one of those in it.  Hmm..... what's the build quality of these DSI's?


the important thing for me is that they dont look like filco zero's ;-D
Title: DSI ASK-6600U Pics for Wellington
Post by: maxlugar on Thu, 17 September 2009, 02:10:38
Quote from: ripster;118537
Aha - that's where I've seen them before.  I think I had a gift card with one of those in it.  Hmm..... what's the build quality of these DSI's?


Fair.  Not quite as refined looking as the Filco, but pretty good overall.  The simplified Type I ALPS key switches are mounted on a metal plate.  That is what accounts for that annoying ringing sound after each key press.

The case plastics are a grade below the Filco, but the case pieces fit together well with no gaps  (unlike my $250 HHKB Pro 2 !)

I mean, come one, 50 bones buys you a decent keyboard with genuine ALPS branded key switches and none of the issues people have had with the Das, ABS or Filco Zero. It just might be the best deal out there right now.

Of course, compared to a real keyboard...:wink: