What about making left shift shorter to match the right are you talking about? Left shift is shorter than right.
Yes, it is, by half the width of a normal letter key.
But I thought it was clear in my description that I meant shortening it to match the width of the right shift key after it was shortened by the width of a single-width extra key that was inserted to the right of it.
Could you make another one of those fancy pictures?
I think this needs simplifying. E.g. the "Shift-Setup-number at top: modify the existing layout by loading in that particular partial layout. " is redundant.
The board ought to be able to create these store remaps on command as well. It might be easier and cheaper to use microSD.
Use the USB ports to store your setup files. That is, when the board boots or when the setup buttons are mashed, the board will scan storage hanging off the USB port for a corresponding remap file. The remap files would either be simple text files that the board would intepret on load, or a 'compiled' file that it would simply grab and slap into the key definition storage. The board ought to be able to create these store remaps on command as well. It might be easier and cheaper to use microSD.
It would be nice if there were several indicator lights that could be tagged to any key. This would allow for your toggle keys to be any key on the board.
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
Okay, I came up with two different layout ideas, similar to ANSI, but with a bit more flexibility.Wouldn't shifting the letters around that much in relation to each other completely hose up touch typists? I know I'd constantly be catching the right edge of the tab when I meant to hit Q, etc. I think the letters and numbers at least really need to stay in the normal "diagonal" layout.
Here:
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
Looking at it, it seems like you ought to be able to link pairs of keys with double-width keycaps anywhere they're next to each other. For instance, shift the enter key from a horizontal to a vertical orientation and move the key above it to the side.
anyway this proposed layout confuses and infuriates me
am i the only person that (as of right now) prefers a flat keyboard? the hhkb has a bit of a mandatory lift to it that im going to have to get used to. cant imagine pulling out feet on a keyboard that is already angled.
was going to do it on this one so i could cease the attempt to imagine but i cant feel them out so oh well
That bad, eh?
I figured that a lot of people like the HHKB, but it's a little too different for many people as well, so I was trying to come up with something similar to it, but not quite as unusual.
How is it that the result is so bad?
the removal of the far-right column of the numpad makes me think this was designed by someone who doesn't actually use numpads.
i dont have the hhkb yet but i feel like it underutilizes its form factor. there need to be KEYS IN THE CORNERS, DAMMIT!
plus, the removal of the far-right column of the numpad makes me think this was designed by someone who doesn't actually use numpads.
Another thing - the lack of symmetry bugs me. Two Fn keys in totally different zones - ugh!
Another thing - the lack of symmetry bugs me. Two Fn keys in totally different zones - ugh!
Just to clarify, I was still referring to the HHKB Lite 2 there. :-)
Ah. My idea was to have one key that was not remappable, used to select a layout.
When a layout is selected, usually it has only one Fn key, but in the different layouts, I've had the Fn key in different spots. And a problem is Fn key and Num Lock keys that conflict with what I want to allow for the numeric keypad.
I am going to see if I can't improve some of the details a bit; for example, perhaps have two Fn keys, symmetrically, where I was putting the Windows Shift keys in the first layout. The three layouts I have are quite different from each other, and so I need a bit more similarity so that I can have partial overlays - to independently move the control key, get rid of Caps Lock, provide Windows keys, all as separate choices.
But as the suggestions so far received haven't been for small changes, I guess my general idea of a keyboard sort of like the HHKB, but not quite as exotic, is not one that's appealing.
It needs a row of function keys, a cursor T and the 'gross movement' keys above the T or it's a non-starter for me.
I've spent years with my Thinkpad 600E and I think it's a primo mini-layout:
The only thing that occurs to me is that 7 rows of keys makes it pretty tall.
What tool are you using to draw these layouts..?
Maybe we could reuse a keyboard case with mouse buttons there to have an extra Fn and Shift key. :-)
On the other hand, I do care about having my Home/End keys within reach of the cursor.
Ah! You beat me in putting in inverted T arrows.This one is interesting and pretty clever: the distance to the cursor T is about the same compared when it is at the bottom, yet you have access to Home/End, page up/down and even have the backspace at hand!
What I was thinking:
if there were a total of 6 rows, then 12 function keys could be placed on the left side, like the model F :)
Ah! You beat me in putting in inverted T arrows.
What I was thinking:
The second arrangement is interesting, but is there really that much use for the context menu key?
With the elimination of that key, you can group scroll lock and pause/break,
Model F-style springs.
I work with the cursor T constantly, so it has to be within easy reach and it has to be a T. The split solutions and the top of the board concept won't work for me.
From my own experience, the fanciest cursor key arrangement is the traditional + arrangement, the T being something peculiar to the IBM PC.
The inverted-T arrow key arrangement seems to have originated with the DEC LK201 keyboard.
The inverted-T arrow key arrangement seems to have originated with the DEC LK201 keyboard.
But I would not have guessed the LK201 predated the PC keyboard
I may be giving up too quickly - and the ideal keyboard for you, with eight rows of keys, may not in fact cause any manufacturing issues. After all, a 122-key keyboard has eight rows of keys, and Unicomp makes those. Maybe I'll think of something - or someone else will.
The idea is that the left Windows Shift key and the keys shown as :, (, and ) would be exchanged with the cursor keys; not in a straight key-for-key swap, but with the groups as a whole being exchanged, and taking an optimum arrangement in their new home.
Here's a diagram showing one of the two states of the design with the minor change I noted, but this time in my usual color scheme so it's easier to see the different groups of keys:Once again, if the keyboard has an Fn key you can reach with your thumbs, it would be a go for me.
The idea is that the left Windows Shift key and the keys shown as :, (, and ) would be exchanged with the cursor keys; not in a straight key-for-key swap, but with the groups as a whole being exchanged, and taking an optimum arrangement in their new home.
it look kind of strange to me.It sure looks a little strange. But would you use it?
the layout. hopefully we get a layout that everyone is happy with.
It sure looks a little strange. But would you use it?
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4635&d=1253507113)
now that the colon and parens are up there, it makes me think of defining emoticon macros
and how about a gap separating the numbers row from the top 2 rows :)
i still like your original design :)
excuse my crude editing, all the numeric pad keys are supposed to be normal, just moved down one row ;)
I hope nobody's getting too wrapped around the axle about this thought exercise.
In fact, my original arrangementSome kind of hybrid cursor/misc/numpad block would be no problem for me if I can hold the Fn key with the thumb of my other hand, or if you can make the Fn layer "stick"/lock for a while.Show Image(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/remap.gif)
could definitely be remapped in such an arrangement. The three yellow keys and 7, 8, and 9 would be the Insert/Page Down rectangle in standard shape, and, just as you depict, 1, 2, 3, and 5 could be the inverted-T cursor cluster.
I don't think that's what most people would want as the default, but it would be useful for Shawn.
What about my compact layout idea? Nobody likes the grouping of the function keys?
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
EDIT: Oh, you edited your post.
I meant to ask about that keyboard layout when I saw it; was it intended to be a non-staggered layout, or was it just drawn that way for simplicity?
As is no doubt noticeable, I'm going for as conventional a keyboard as possible, to have the widest possible appeal. Of course one can select Colemak or Dvorak on the computer, but I'm assuming most people want an ordinary keyboard... yet just different enough not to be what they already have.
was it intended to be a non-staggered layout, or was it just drawn that way for simplicity?
As is no doubt noticeable, I'm going for as conventional a keyboard as possible, to have the widest possible appeal.
What's bothering me is that while your input was one of the first specific suggestions I received, it looks like the requirement for an inverted-T cursor cluster comes into conflict with most other constraints on the keyboard design.
I thought it was one of the best things since sliced bread when keyboards went from imbedding the cursor movement keys in the numeric keypad and to the inverted T.
At least, if you're willing to allow the arrangement of the Insert/Page Down block to be changed, there are more options.
+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| NumLk |PrtScr |ScrlLk |PausBrk|
| | | | |
+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| + |BackSp | | / | * | - |
| = | | Insert| Home |PageUp | |
+-----+------+--+-------+-------+-------+-------+
{ | } |XX| 7 | 8 | 9 | + |
[ | ] |XX| Delete| End |PageDn | |
+----++------+--+-------+-------+-------+ |
" | Enter | 4 | 5 | 6 | |
' | | | UpAr | | |
+--+-+----------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
? | Shift | 1 | 2 | 3 | |
/ | | <-- | DnAr | --> | |
+--+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+ |
| RFunc | RCtrl | 0 | . | Enter |
| | | | | |
+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Esc | |PrtSc|SrcLk|PauBr|NumLk|
| | | | | | |
+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = |BackSp | / | * | - |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| TAB | Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | 7 | 8 | 9 | + |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+ |
|CapLk| ' | A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | Enter | 4 | 5 | 6 | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Shift | / | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | Shift | 1 | 2 | 3 | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+-----+-----+-----+ |
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-----------+-----+ |
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | Alt | Fun | Ctl | 0 | . | |
| | | | | | | | | |Enter|
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-----------+-----+-----+
+-----+ +-----+-----+
| Esc | |PrtSc|ScrLk|
| | | | |
+-----+ +-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = |BackSp | |PauBr|NumLk|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+
+-----+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| TAB | Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | | Ins |Home |PgUp |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk| ' | A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | Enter | | Del | End |PgDn |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+ +-----+
| Shift | / | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | Shift | | UpAr|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+ +-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | Alt | Fun | Ctl | | <- | DnAr| -> |
| | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
And there is my latest contribution. The layout around the enter-key can be easily changed, but imho it is an advantage to have an bigger enter-key.Quote
I agree with that, but I also insist on the shift keys, the backspace key, and the enter key being as reachable as on the U.S. layout. If one meets that constraint, and also has a larger enter key than in the U.S. layout, {[ and }] have to be moved, and that is painful because it is desirable to have them horizontally adjacent. Moving |\ and/or ~` doesn't create that issue.
These keys can be moved, and the extra key on the internatiional keyboard added, while keeping a comfortable layout by U.S. standards, though, and many of the designs on my web site attempt this, such as:Show Image(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/ideal4.gif)
i cannot even fathom shrinking or moving the backslash key. it's perfect.
I did end up having to push the backslash key to the left of the Z,
Do you mean the ANSI layout, where you have to move your pinkie over two inches to reach the backslash? That's the one part of the ANSI style that I hate.
It looks like you moved the regular slash, the one from the ?/ key, to the left of the Z. Now that is something I cannot fathom. Thus, the I-Rocks keyboard that moved ?/ to the far side of the shift... well, that might work for gaming, but not for typing.
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| Esc | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = |BkSp | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |NumLk| |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+ +-----+-----+-----+
| TAB | Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | | | Ins |Home |PgUp |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ + +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-+ + +-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk| \ | A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | ' | | | Del | End |PgDn |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |Enter| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+
| Shift | ` | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | / | Shift | | UpAr|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | Ctl | Alt | Fun | | <- | DnAr| -> |
| | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
Numeric Keypad: Classic Diamond: Inverted T.
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| / | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| |
| |NumLk| | | | |NumLk| | | | |NumLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 7 | 8 | 9 | * | |Home |UpAr |PgUp | | | Ins |Home |PgUp | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 4 | 5 | 6 | - | | <- | | -> | | | Del | End |PgDn | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 1 | 2 | 3 | + | | End |DnAr |PgDn | | | |UpAr | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0 | | . |Enter| | Ins | | Del |Enter| | <- |DnAr | -> |Enter|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
non-ANSI layouts seem to treat the backslash/pipe key as some kind of weird, uncommon key. it's not!
! @ # $ % ¢ & * ( ) _ +
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
¼
Q W E R T Y U I O P ½
: "
A S D F G H J K L ; '
?
Z X C V B N M , . /
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = |BkSp | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| |
|*Esc | *F1 | *F2 | *F3 | *F4 | *F5 | *F6 | *F7 | *F8 | *F9 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 | | | |NumLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| TAB | Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | | | Ins |Home |PgUp | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-+ | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk| \ | A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | ' | | | Del | End |PgDn | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |Enter| | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Fun | Shift | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | / | Shift | | | ^ | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | Alt | Fun | Ctl | | <- | | | -> |Enter|
| | | | | | | | | | V | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| / |
| |NumLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 7 | 8 | 9 | - |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 4 | 5 | 6 | + |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 1 | 2 | 3 | * |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0 | | . |Enter|
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
i'd have to be pretty drunk to go for rshift and mistakenly hit \| ... it's two rows up
All the "uncommon" chars like {,},[,] and especially \ are only reachable when pressing AltGr and streching your hand to the number-keys,
you guys are thinking of doing both ANSI and ISO versions, right? :)
i like ANSI, but i wouldn't want to cripple the rest of the world ;)
you guys are thinking of doing both ANSI and ISO versions, right? :)
Okay, I think I've pretty much shot my wad here...Nice!
Here's the five-row, full numpad, inverted T layout (Num Lock OFF):Code: [Select]
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = |BkSp | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| |
|*Esc | *F1 | *F2 | *F3 | *F4 | *F5 | *F6 | *F7 | *F8 | *F9 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 | | | |NumLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| TAB | Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | | | Ins |Home |PgUp | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-+ | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk| \ | A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | ' | | | Del | End |PgDn | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |Enter| | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Fun | Shift | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | / | Shift | | | ^ | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | Alt | Fun | Ctl | | <- | | | -> |Enter|
| | | | | | | | | | V | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
The 'Fun' key on the left is used to shift the top row to get at the Escape and F keys. I imagine it could be used for plenty of other things as well. Also, with the Caps Lock OFF, there are several unused keys in the numeric keypad.
And here is the numeric keypad with Caps Lock ON:Code: [Select]
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr| / |
| |NumLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 7 | 8 | 9 | - |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 4 | 5 | 6 | + |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 1 | 2 | 3 | * |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0 | | . |Enter|
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
This should give a board about the same width as the spacesaver and a full two rows shorter (counting the F row and the gap).
a spacebar split in 3 would solve the lack of buttons there.
Wow...that's huge.
Interesting, but I think no stagger is better than reverse stagger on the left.
Wow...that's huge.I wouldn't say that; the reverse stagger just means that you will place your hands differently and in a somewhat comfortable position. It's different, but it has its merits; mainly in the area you need to get a decent keyboard.
Interesting, but I think no stagger is better than reverse stagger on the left.
Well, I appreciate your effort but I think this layout still has a problem: the [ { and ] } keys are often used during programming. Placing them at the current spot makes them a bit hard to reach.
| ` \ <
~ { } >
! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
[
Q W E R T Y U I O P ]
: "
A S D F G H J K L ; '
< > ?
Z X C V B N M , . /
I think a physical (ignoring the keycap legends) layout like this would be very comfortable:
Id prefer something like this...
I'm not sure why moving the tab and back space is a good idea, and two back space keys is odd. However, there is a more serious flaw: with only one Alt key, it isn't possible to have one of them change to AltGr when needed for international layouts.
Id prefer something like this...Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4667&stc=1&d=1253627081)
Probably just going to confuse things, but I tried shuffling around a full-size keyboard and came up with this.
- Minimal staggering (1/4 key width jump between rows.)
- Left hand staggered in 'proper' direction.
- Some keys duplicated (Ctrl, B, 6).
- Includes ISO (European) key, but in less intrusive place than normal.
- Both Shift keys large and same distance from home position.
- Fat Escape key in prominent position.
I'm not sure why moving the tab and back space is a good idea, and two back space keys is odd. However, there is a more serious flaw: with only one Alt key, it isn't possible to have one of them change to AltGr when needed for international layouts.
nice symmetry :D
Maybe I should have added some explanation...
Well, I appreciate your effort but I think this layout still has a problem: the [ { and ] } keys are often used during programming.
Steve Jobs shipped those keys off to the Numpad
getting the backslash and tilde keys out of the way has been an issue since time immemorial ;)
perhaps it could be filled by something really geeky: a set of six front-panel switches!
leaving a big rectangular empty space in the upper left corner. Well, perhaps it could be filled by something really geeky: a set of six front-panel switches!
Or maybe a REAL number pad! Two keys suffice!!:
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Esc | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - | = |BkSp | |PrtSc|NumLk|PauBr| |
| *` | *F1 | *F2 | *F3 | *F4 | *F5 | *F6 | *F7 | *F8 | *F9 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 | | | |*ScLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| TAB | Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | | Ins |Home |PgUp | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk| \ | A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | ' | | | Del | End |PgDn | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |Enter| | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Fun | Shift | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | / | Shift | | | ^ | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | Alt | Fun | Ctl | | <- | | | -> |Enter|
| | | | | | | | | | V | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|NumLk|PauBr| / |
| |*ScLk| | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 7 | 8 | 9 | - |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 4 | 5 | 6 | + |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 1 | 2 | 3 | * |
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0 | | . |Enter|
| | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
How do I satisfy Shawn Stanford's request that the cursor keys stay in an inverted-T formation, and at the bottom of the keyboard, and the Insert/Page Down block remain the same...and JBert's request that the two areas stay close together,The full numeric keypad seems to be a plus for a lot of people, and including it allows for the inverted T with full editing keys in their customary place above the T, or the classic cursor diamond with editing keys intermixed.
and the additional condition that the square brackets not be too hard for programmers to reach, and my own desires for a conventional layout,All the keys are in their standard position with the exception of the backslash, which I moved to the left side of the keyboard next to the 'A'. This move, plus resizing the keys on the margins of the board keeps things nice and tight.
plus my assumptions as to the limitations of what Unicomp could easily make?Well, figure the two hard parts are going to be the casing and the backplane. They already have the components for the keys. I think the casing would be easy and cheap enough to manufacture, even in small runs. I don't know enough about electronic component manufacturing to be able to guess as to the cost of designing and manufacturing a small run of backplanes.
I don't understand; I think your original idea of including a full numpad on the right side and integrating the cursor pad into it was brilliant.
Just to reiterate, here's Stanford V3 with the inverted T cursor block:
I should note that it was someone else's idea to allow the numpad to switch to cursor keys in inverted-T formation instead of + formation.That may have been my idea. In any case, I am absolutely its champion.
With that Fn key, and the ability to switch layouts, I'm not just aiming at switching the Caps Lock key with the left-hand Control key; oh, no. I also want the keyboard to be able to fully emulate a 122-key keyboard as well. Compared to which, it is very compact.Hmm... I have to honestly say I'm not sure how you're accomplishing that with that layout, unless you're planning on padding out the F key rows to full 12-key rows. I've had the Boscom 122-key for a couple months now and it's nice and it's sort of like going home, but I'm not wedded to it by any means.
I do have to admit that is a good layout as well, although there's one fatal objection to it as it stands; the stagger between the Q-row and the A-row is wrong, the Q-row and the one above having to be moved half a key to the right (if I understand the diagram correctly).
Placing |\ between A and the Caps Lock key is a good idea, making that key reachable and Caps Lock harder to hit accidentally, but it's a bit unconventional, and modifying the numeric keypad by cutting the 0 key in half to facilitate the inverted-T cursor cluster is again a trifle unconventional.
That may have been my idea. In any case, I am absolutely its champion.
It shouldn't look that way. At least, it's not on my monitor. Alphanumeric area should be completely standard;The QWERTY and ASDF rows are only offset a small amount on a standard board, about 1/4 key width I believe, following this pattern:
I wouldn't want to change the default cursor alternates for the numeric keypad, simply because I suspect that would please very few people, and cause all sorts of confusion and compatibility problems.You could steal an idea from the Typematrix keyboard. It has a Num key as well as the NumLock key.
I was thinking of a post by Matt Siegel on page 5 of this thread. Myself, I wouldn't want to change the default cursor alternates for the numeric keypad, simply because I suspect that would please very few people, and cause all sorts of confusion and compatibility problems. Some games require one to take the numpad out of Num Lock, and use Home, End, PgUp and PgDn for diagonal movement, for example.Yes, I agree. I thought I said that the diamond should be the default layout when the NumLk is OFF. If I didn't, I meant to. In any case: in a perfect world the user could throw a switch and swap some keycaps and have the inverted T and editing block, but if not: that's what AHK is for...
So I've drifted towards a somewhat less-compact keyboard arrangement - but it still gives you a numpad while chopping off the numpad.I think here is where we part ways. I don't see any reason to chop off the numpad. You're not gaining (or losing, I guess) a significant amount of space - especially if you squeeze a key-column out of the right side of the typing area.
And instead of adding three columns of keys, one could indeed move Print Screen to Pause to the left one key, squeeze the right Alt and Ctrl keys, nest the inverted-T into the keyboard, and go to a 3 by 2 array instead of a 2 by 3 array for Home/Page Down... and trim to two added columns on the right, in much the way the keyboard of which you showed a photo did, and, indeed, a number of other keyboards do (as it happens, even the ViewSonic VS 10679keyboard on which I type these words).
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
| 0 | - | = |BkSp | | Ins |Home |
|*F10 |*F11 |*F12 | | | | |
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
---+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
O | P | [ | ] | | Del | End |
| | | | | | |
---+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
| L | ; | ' | | |PgUp |PgDn |
| | | |Enter| | | |
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+
, | . | / | Shift | | ^ |
| | | | | | |
----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+
--+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl | | <- | | | -> |
| | | | | | V | |
--+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
I'm trying very hard to come up with a keyboard that has broad appeal, but also has certain elite features that would appeal to the sort of person that is in this group. ..snip.. But, to reiterate: to make the keyboard as practical as possible for day-to-day typing for the greatest number of people, I've allowed myself to be driven by both your suggestions and those of others to keeping the changes from the traditional PC layout to a minimum.
The QWERTY and ASDF rows are only offset a small amount on a standard board, about 1/4 key width I believe, following this pattern:Yeah, that's what happens when you're using ASCII. Imagine it as it should be, please!
You could steal an idea from the Typematrix keyboard. It has a Num key as well as the NumLock key. Translating this to Shawn's layout, we'd aim for this:
- Num off: Keys give inverted T and 6-pack navigation;
- Num on, NumLock on: Keys give numbers;
- Num on, NumLock off: Keys give diamond-cluster navigation etc.
Maybe instead of using a Num toggle, the Fn layer could be used instead.
Ultimately, it's a question of which set of compromises you're willing to buy and live with. Clearly, if Unicomp doesn't feel what we scheme up is marketable, it's a no-go.
...snip... my first idea was to omit the function keys and the cursor keys, and just have a numeric keypad - and model the behavior on the HHKB, but be lighter.
huh, i've never seen a proctologist use a transparent flashlight before...
That's what Melvin said.
With the proviso that the board would use standard keycaps and key guts -
Not easy at all. Buckling springs you're talking new membranes and the plastic key wells and a new controller for each key layout. For mechanical switches you would need new PCB layout, controller.
Then you get into the case design.....
I would help if you were Korean. And a dentist. And a little crazy.
Oh come on now, these are innocent play toys!
now if only we had members with CAD qi, a CNC milling machine, and injection molding equipment...
Still, the biggest issue I'm seeing is the circuitry. This stuff looks kinda hard...Hard to make yourself, that's a fact.
If others can solder their own CPU, doing a keyboard circuit shouldn't be that hard... :D
Not easy at all.
-------------------------------------------------------
| | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | { | } | | |
|Tab| Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | \ |
-------------------------------------------------------
|Bk | + | - | * | $ | _ | ! | ( | ) | = | : | " | |
|Spc| A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | ' |Enter |
-------------------------------------------------------
| | ~ | @ | # | ` | % | ^ | & | < | > | ? | |
|Shift | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | / |Shift |
------------------------------------------------------
| | | | | |A |1 |1 | |
|Ctl|Fn |Alt| | |a |a |A |Fn |
----------------------------------------------------
(Maybe even finding out how to get those "fake" and clicky Cherry clears?)Real Cherry clears FTW.
While this would require some custom coding at the computer end, I think, because it would be impractical to handle it all by shuffling scan codes around, unless one knew it was to be used with the U.S. layout only...Code: [Select]
-------------------------------------------------------
| | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | { | } | | |
|Tab| Q | W | E | R | T | Y | U | I | O | P | [ | ] | \ |
-------------------------------------------------------
|Bk | + | - | * | $ | _ | ! | ( | ) | = | : | " | |
|Spc| A | S | D | F | G | H | J | K | L | ; | ' |Enter |
-------------------------------------------------------
| | ~ | @ | # | ` | % | ^ | & | < | > | ? | |
|Shift | Z | X | C | V | B | N | M | , | . | / |Shift |
------------------------------------------------------
| | | | | |A |1 |1 | |
|Ctl|Fn |Alt| | |a |a |A |Fn |
----------------------------------------------------
one can get even smaller than the HHKB.
A three-bank keyboard, like on very old typewriters.
But instead of a figures shift, there's only one shift key in the normal position.
There are three keys, marked Aa, 1a, and 1A, that set what the shift key does.
With Aa, you type small letters, and the shift key gives you capitals.
With 1a, you type small letters, and the shift key gives you punctuation marks.
With 1A, you type capital letters, and the shift key gives you punctuation marks.
However, when in 1a mode, the left half of a split spacebar is also useful. That puts you in Aa mode just for the next shifted character you type.
Note that the punctuation keys to the right of the keyboard just shift normally.
You get one control key, one Alt key, but two Fn keys. Note that backspace, on the lopped-off fourth row, replaces Caps Lock.
Nice idea. But where's Esc?
Well, it might indeed be necessary to give up on buckling springs.
Who solders a CPU any more? Yes, embedded chips are routinely soldered on automated assembly lines - but the CPU in a home computer on the desktop goes into a zero-insertion force socket, just before you clamp the heatsink down on it...http://www.stevechamberlin.com/cpu/2009/05/28/bmow-project-summary/
But your illustration looks like a wirewrap board, which is complicated, but not soldered.
That would be this, right?Show Image(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/remap.gif)
I don't like the idea of A1, etc, looks worse than CapsLock.
There are already very compact layouts out there that use alternate switches.
I don't like the idea of A1, etc, looks worse than CapsLock.
Oh, and here's a really advanced keyboard design which indeed would not be suited to buckling springs:
When you push the Num Lock lever to the right, the rows of keys line up vertically.
That wiring makes Tim Tyler's (http://mykeyboard.co.uk/x_keys/matrix/) elegant in comparison.
That wiring makes Tim Tyler's (http://mykeyboard.co.uk/x_keys/matrix/) elegant in comparison.
Oh, and here's a really advanced keyboard design which indeed would not be suited to buckling springs:
the numpad isn't supported in hardware but in software,