geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: timw4mail on Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:23:56
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I can't decide if I like the one-key stagger of the bottom row or not, but here's the idea:
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
Comments?
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Loving the compact layout. I think that the bottom row should be left a key, just because of habit and muscle memory.
On the F-key rows, how about three rows of 4? I find that's a bit more natural when reading with the left hand.
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take top layout and
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break the f keys into 2 sets of 6 (left and right) so you can actually find stuff
make sysrq and pause vertical
take out break in numpad
2
use traditional fkeys
move home/end set to the right
move numpad down
get rid of arrows and use num lock
which was also added at some point
bonus points if the 5 is down instead of 2 once num lock is enabled
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Americans seem to be addicted to easy to reach left shift keys like it was crack cocaine.
But I think even they would take issue with moving ZXC... to the right like that.
I'm getting more and more obsessed by symmetry. Having the right shift two keys further from home than the left one would drive me crazy.
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I decided to try to move the bottom row left a key, and created another blank key from the extra room.
Loving the compact layout. I think that the bottom row should be left a key, just because of habit and muscle memory.
On the F-key rows, how about three rows of 4? I find that's a bit more natural when reading with the left hand.
That bugs me aesthetically, for some reason. I tried doing that at first, but found the keyboard getting too square.
take top layout and
1
break the f keys into 2 sets of 6 (left and right) so you can actually find stuff
make sysrq and pause vertical
take out break in numpad
2
use traditional fkeys
move home/end set to the right
move numpad down
get rid of arrows and use num lock
which was also added at some point
bonus points if the 5 is down instead of 2 once num lock is enabled
The break in the numpad doesn't really exist...
On the full layout...I haven't removed or changed locations of any of the Fkeys, modifiers, etc. The lock keys are blank, so you can make them lock keys if you want. You even get 5 extra blank keys.
Americans seem to be addicted to easy to reach left shift keys like it was crack cocaine.
But I think even they would take issue with moving ZXC... to the right like that.
I'm getting more and more obsessed by symmetry. Having the right shift two keys further from home than the left one would drive me crazy.
I'm sorry that the ISO layout removes your easy to reach shift key.
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Interesting to see a non-staggered key layout for a change. I like the way the shift keys are now symmetrical.
I do have to address the elephant in the room though: how does this improve the key layout with regards to posture and finger travel? Won't you have the habit to force your wrists together as to line up your fingers with the keys? Can you rest your thumbs beneath the spacebar without keeping them crossed?
Granted, the TypeMatrix is also non-staggered, but it does force the hands apart by inserting editing keys in the middle of the typing area.
Still, I'd think a non-staggered layout like the one presented here won't work due to the above, especially within the constraints of a compact keyboard. Either you will have to stagger the keys in symmetrical directions like the μTRON keyboard, split it up into two keyboard units or even do both to make it exactly like the μTRON. Otherwise I wouldn't see the point of even thinking to move keys around...
Personally, I've been thinking about a something like a physically split Maltron J-type (http://www.maltron.com/images/keyboards/maltron-jtype-front1l.jpg) keyboard, although I would change quite some things with regard to modifier and movement keys.
Anyway, you did put effort in it so don't let me stop me if you think this layout really fits you.
Off topic: that layout page is nice!
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Won't you have the habit to force your wrists together as to line up your fingers with the keys?
I think that's a red herring. Whether the keys are staggered or not doesn't have any effect on wrist position when you think about it. You rest your fingers on the home row. That defines your hand positioning, and your fingers handle the necessary corrections.
Staggered keys are good for the right hand and very bad for the left hand - at least if you accept conventional wisdom on which fingers to use where. Overall I'm convinced staggered keys are 'a bad thing'.
The QWER row is only set 1/4 key width to the left of the ASDF row. I wish manufacturers would at least have the courage to line those 2 rows up as part of a gradual process of weaning the population off of staggered layouts.
Edit> Also the number row is 1/4 key to the right of the home row - still an easy change to adjust to even though the movement is bigger relative to the QWERTY row (1/2 key width.)
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the ergonomic people tend to agree the staggered rows is like QWERTY, merely a surviving relic from the old days. too bad it's not easy to change.
and 'they' DID try it. i think it was the dell netbook. everyone went nuts and said it was stupid dell doing their stupid stuff.
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'they' DID try it. i think it was the dell netbook. everyone went nuts and said it was stupid dell doing their stupid stuff.
You mean the Mini 9 (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4578)?
I like what they did to the letter keys. Shame they had to do some other freaky stuff to pack everything in. (The number keys are small and go out of sync with the letter keys, LOL.)
(http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/36304.jpg)
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I think that's a red herring. Whether the keys are staggered or not doesn't have any effect on wrist position when you think about it. You rest your fingers on the home row. That defines your hand positioning, and your fingers handle the necessary corrections.
Well, I'm not going to say you can't start with your wrists in the right position.
However, I would think your fingers have an easier time "rolling up" or moving left-right than to do both at the same time.
When you keep your wrists in a natural position on this keyboard, your fingers are at an angle relative to the keyboard itself. So when they have to move on a matrix keyboard, they will have to move diagonally.
Somehow, I can't shake the feeling that this keyboard makes you take a bad posture if you aren't paying attention.
Of course, when you do relearn to type, you can learn to compensate for all ofthis. Still, I think that a keyboard which adapts to your habit is a better alternative, so IMO a non-staggered key layout might make more sense on a split keyboard.
Staggered keys are good for the right hand and very bad for the left hand - at least if you accept conventional wisdom on which fingers to use where. Overall I'm convinced staggered keys are 'a bad thing'.
The QWER row is only set 1/4 key width to the left of the ASDF row. I wish manufacturers would at least have the courage to line those 2 rows up as part of a gradual process of weaning the population off of staggered layouts.
Edit> Also the number row is 1/4 key to the right of the home row - still an easy change to adjust to even though the movement is bigger relative to the QWERTY row (1/2 key width.)
This is the "legacy" layout you are talking about, and very so, it is indeed a bad layout for your left hand and an annoying one for your right due to non-uniform shifting.
Still, I wouldn't say staggering is bad. If you'd change your keyboard so the staggering is symmetrical and uniform (e.g. 1/3 key), you could have a nice keyboard layout which works out OK for both hands. It would seriously mess up your muscle memory though as can be seen in webwit's comments on the μTRON (an interesting keyboard nonetheless).
Gradually shifting the rows by 1/4 a key every 5 years would be interesting. I think I read about that before, but I can't remember where.
I guess I'll have to build one or buy a matrix keyboard to make a final conclusion on this. Still, my common sense would tell me it is about as unnatural as the legacy layout, were it not that some matrix models do try to keep your hands away from each other by inserting more keys in the middle.
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You mean the Mini 9 (http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4578)?
I like what they did to the letter keys. Shame they had to do some other freaky stuff to pack everything in. (The number keys are small and go out of sync with the letter keys, LOL.)
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/36304.jpg
Close, but no cigar. :-)
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Messing with the layout in any way is somewhat problematic due to the gravity of habit. Before I did these sets of layouts, I was thinking of how it might be better to have each finger's column staggered to the relative length of each finger, like a flat Maltron keyboard, but then realized that it's very difficult to design a good layout like that because of non-standard typing styles, as well as the index finger sets of rows.
This is the unfortunate thing about everything being mass-produced: It's very difficult to make things according to individual taste.
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I really like this idea. I think I will have to borrow some cherry switches off from some poor board and build something myself. It's a bad habit of mine to never be satisfied with what is available... Which on the other hand means I'm actually pretty skilled at building stuff.
The staggering of the keys have always bugged me. Already at having to use the WASD keys for arrowing around... Not to mention embedded numpads. Embedding those and the F-keys would require Fn-buttons though. Probably above my electronics skills to implement at the moment. I would probably do a semi compact board with shrinking potential =)
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I really like this idea. I think I will have to borrow some cherry switches off from some poor board and build something myself. It's a bad habit of mine to never be satisfied with what is available... Which on the other hand means I'm actually pretty skilled at building stuff.
you can see some poor sap trying to do this
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439)
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I hate having bent wrists, so I'd either split it entirely apart, add separation in the middle (either blank like the Kinesis or with a central numberpad like the Maltron), or angle it (like the "TrulyErgonomic").
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I think I have ordered a bag of loose cherry switches, I really shouldn't stay up this late... =D
Good night.
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Thought I would be getting brown switches but only a couple of minutes ago I got a small box of 75 clear ones and 20 blue ones =) Well I thought the blue ones would be blue but not the clear ones clear...
Doesn't really matter I guess other than that now I won't get to feel a brown one. I have a Filco with blue ones on the way already.
I've selected a trash rubber dome board to donate a controller. Now I'll just have to decode the PCP (printed circuit plastic), I'll report back on any progress of this project...
Edit: By the way, does anyone know what thickness the plate should be for the plate mounted mx's?
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Edit: By the way, does anyone know what thickness the plate should be for the plate mounted mx's?
0.06 inches (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm) / 1.5 mm (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/mx_cat.pdf)
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The DataDesk SmartBoard (http://www.datadesktech.com/desktop_sb.html) is non-staggered, but also split... speaking from experience, it took a bit of getting used to, but I think non-staggered (at least for a split keyboard design) was a good design choice. I also appreciated the SmartBoard's use of trapezoidal key caps that increased in surface area as a function of the distance traveled by each finger.
I'm less convinced that non-staggered key rows make sense in a non-split scenario.
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PrinceValium: How are you going to cut the holes in the plate? Do you have access to industrial equipment?
It would be quite a chore to cut by hand .. believe me, I have cut quite a few things by hand in 1.5 mm aluminium. Steel would be impossible.
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I'm definately not going for steel with the tools I have available.. I was thinking plastic but 1.5 mm probably won't hold up. Thicker might work, I think the keys would stay in unless pulled upon. If I end up really liking it I guess it's not impossible to get something cut by laser or water jet. That's a future problem though.
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i just tested drilling in holes for a acrylic pcb.
i ended up cracking the acrylic in a few places, just too much downward force with my drill.
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Some progress at least... =D I routed the rows on a router table against the fence. A 14 mm router bit probably would have helped but some tinkering got it done pretty well. Then I sawed the colums on a miter saw.
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2mq0vmx.jpg)
Probably would have saved me enough soldering time to make it worthwhile to have designed and payed for a pcb in the first place... I decoded a hp rubberdome controller. First I tried to follow the lines around with my finger, then a pencil, then I figured out they probably are conductive (doh) and took out the multimeter =) Not exactly straight rows or columns...
It turned out to be harder than I thought to solder the wires to the controller though. So I'll have to wait for the Teensys I ordered before I get this thing up and running for real.
What's the cheapest/best place to get custom pcbs? Is http://www.pad2pad.com/ of the same company as http://www.emachineshop.com/ ? They refer to emackineshops CAD software. Might combine an order of a pcb and a mounting plate in that case...
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i just tested drilling in holes for a acrylic pcb.
i ended up cracking the acrylic in a few places, just too much downward force with my drill.
Put the PCB between 2 metal-plates and wrench them together. Now drill the holes.