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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Kroah on Thu, 11 June 2015, 09:23:02

Title: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: Kroah on Thu, 11 June 2015, 09:23:02: Hello all,

Last week, while browsing some news about upcoming mices, i saw some really nice looking keyboards... and i just realized i never thought to upgrade my very old keyboard.

So i looked at some popular guides to help me on my quest and i ended with:
- ISO French layout (105 keys)
- a simple backlight going only through keycaps legends
- Cherry MX Brown switches
- Full size keyboard
- OEM profil and WASD/Ducky compatible keycaps

I'm not a hardcore gamer, but i use my computer almost in the dark, so the need for a backlit keyboard.
I will certainly buy a keycaps set (like the ducky ones) to customize the keyboard while keeping the translucent legends.

But, sadly, after many days, i found very (very) few keyboards corresponding to those criteria:

- No backlight:
WASD
Das
CM Storm Quickfire XT

- Doesn't exist with ISO layout (exist only with ANSI layout):
Code
Max Nighthawk X8
Deck Hassium Pro

- Doesn't exist with Brown Cherry MX:
QPAD MK-70/80/85

- White back plate => bleeding between keys:
CM Storm Trigger Z
Ducky Channel 5 (soon)

- Not standard keycaps:
Corsair K70: bottom row is not standard (not WASD/Ducky keycaps compatible)

- No more available in France:
Ducky Channel Zero Shine Zone
CM Storm Quickfire Ultimate

- Expensive:
Ducky Channel Shine 4: >250€ (ouch)

I'm really disappointed because:
- WASD and Das keyboard don't exist with backlight
- the Code and Nighthawk don't seem to exist with ISO layout/105 keys (please correct me if i'm wrong)
- CM Storm Trigger Z and the upcoming Ducky Channel 5 have a white backplate giving bleeding lights between keycaps (i would like only the legends to be lit, whatever the color is).
- the remaining Ducky Channel 4 are extremly expensive (>250€)

Finally, i may buy a CM Storm Trigger Z and paint the white backplate with a black mate color... i don't know if someone already did that and if this will give good results (removing the reflection of the lights on the backplate...).

Any thoughts ? I need your help :-[

Thanks in advance,
Kroah
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: metal369 on Thu, 11 June 2015, 09:36:51: ALL YOU NEED IS JUST CUSTOM BOARDS.
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: FrostyToast on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:02:35: Painting a backplate is going to require some soldering since you can't just paint a board with the switches still on.
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28: Hello fellow frenchman,
yeah sadly our option for french mech keyboards are limited.

The first thing that stroke me, is you want to replace the keycaps. Afaik there's no mx compatible aftermarket aside from those :
http://www.keyboardco.com/product/double-shot-filco-105-key-french-keyset.asp .

you can get the duck zero zone here : http://www.mechkeyboards.eu/#!ducky-zero-zone/c1fvs .
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: Kroah on Thu, 11 June 2015, 14:48:32: Thanks all for your answers.

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
Hello fellow frenchman,
yeah sadly our option for french mech keyboards are limited.
Yes... and when i see a 149$ US keyboard sold 179€ in europe (including taxes), i'm even more sad.

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
The first thing that stroke me, is you want to replace the keycaps.
I would like to customize some caps:
(http://i.imgur.com/H76wQ.jpg)

In the case i only want to customize the 26 letters, if i get a QWERTY ISO (or even ANSI) keycaps set, may i be able to swap the 'A' and 'Q' or there's something on the keycap which will prevent me to do this (like a "mistake-proofing" [fr: detrompeur]) ? (i'm a beginner with all those stuffs)
If so, i could get something like this (QWERTY ISO):
http://www.amazon.fr/Ducky-r%C3%A9tro-%C3%A9clairage-Compatible-Keycaps-S9C6-L109-UKALV/dp/B00G6CPGCI (http://www.amazon.fr/Ducky-r%C3%A9tro-%C3%A9clairage-Compatible-Keycaps-S9C6-L109-UKALV/dp/B00G6CPGCI) (UK layout S9C6-L109-UKALV)
Or i may change only control keys (CTRL, SHIFT, ESC, F1-F12, etc).
I know the Fxx keys Fn change between ducky versions, but well...

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
Afaik there's no mx compatible aftermarket aside from those :
You mean with french layout ? If so, i agree...
Otherwise, the keycaps in the above Amazon link, aren't they compatible with the Ducky Zero for example (beside the Azerty/Qwerty stuffs) ?

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
you can get the duck zero zone here : http://www.mechkeyboards.eu/#!ducky-zero-zone/c1fvs .
Thank you for the link!

What's your opinion between:
- the Ducky Zero Shine Zone for 130€
- the Ducky Shine 4 for 200€
- the CM Storm Trigger Z for 90€
- wait for the rainbow-houseclub-Ducky Shine 5 for... what will be the price of this thing o.O

What are choosing all the non-UK, non-US people when they want to customize their keyboard ?
Are they going to the UK/US layout ? If so, how are they typing their country specific characters (accents, etc.) ?

I'm a little lost and puzzled.
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 15:16:51: Quote from: Kroah on Thu, 11 June 2015, 14:48:32
Thanks all for your answers.

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
Hello fellow frenchman,
yeah sadly our option for french mech keyboards are limited.
Yes... and when i see a 149$ US keyboard sold 179� in europe (including taxes), i'm even more sad.

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
The first thing that stroke me, is you want to replace the keycaps.
I would like to customize some caps:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/H76wQ.jpg)

In the case i only want to customize the 26 letters, if i get a QWERTY ISO (or even ANSI) keycaps set, may i be able to swap the 'A' and 'Q' or there's something on the keycap which will prevent me to do this (like a "mistake-proofing" [fr: detrompeur]) ? (i'm a beginner with all those stuffs)
If so, i could get something like this (QWERTY ISO):
http://www.amazon.fr/Ducky-r%C3%A9tro-%C3%A9clairage-Compatible-Keycaps-S9C6-L109-UKALV/dp/B00G6CPGCI (http://www.amazon.fr/Ducky-r%C3%A9tro-%C3%A9clairage-Compatible-Keycaps-S9C6-L109-UKALV/dp/B00G6CPGCI) (UK layout S9C6-L109-UKALV)
Or i may change only control keys (CTRL, SHIFT, ESC, F1-F12, etc).
I know the Fxx keys Fn change between ducky versions, but well...

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
Afaik there's no mx compatible aftermarket aside from those :
You mean with french layout ? If so, i agree...
Otherwise, the keycaps in the above Amazon link, aren't they compatible with the Ducky Zero for example (beside the Azerty/Qwerty stuffs) ?

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:06:28
you can get the duck zero zone here : http://www.mechkeyboards.eu/#!ducky-zero-zone/c1fvs .
Thank you for the link!

What's your opinion between:
- the Ducky Zero Shine Zone for 130�
- the Ducky Shine 4 for 200�
- the CM Storm Trigger Z for 90�
- wait for the rainbow-houseclub-Ducky Shine 5 for... what will be the price of this thing o.O

What are choosing all the non-UK, non-US people when they want to customize their keyboard ?
Are they going to the UK/US layout ? If so, how are they typing their country specific characters (accents, etc.) ?

I'm a little lost and puzzled.

Bon on va le faire en français par simplicité, je traduirais pour les anglophones qui veulent suivre.

Tu peux mettre tes touches QWERTY sans problème sur ton futur clavier peut importe lequel tu choisira.
Le seul problème c'est que les touches de chaque rangées n'ont pas le même profile.
Pour démonstration :
(http://i.imgur.com/kFxqOm8.jpg)

Tes touches devraient correspondre à de l'OEM , donc tu remarquera que les touches ne sont pas du tout sur le même profile selon la rangée ou elles sont censé aller. ça va être particulièrement visible pour les Z/W qui vont passé d'une rangée 3 vers la 5.

Atouts/défauts des 3 boards:
- Ducky Zero Shine Zone : pas de cable détachable , moins de possibilité avec le rétroéclairage , bas prix pour un très bon produit
- Ducky Shine 4 : câble détachable, plus de possibilité pour le rétroéclairage, prix supérieur
- CM Storm Trigger Z : peu cher, qualité inférieure à ducky, design particulier.

Je connais plusieurs français qui sont passés à l'ANSI, le language est défini dans ton OS donc tu tapera en Azerty just les marquages des touches qui seront fausses, et il te manquera cette touche [ > < ] qu'il faudra mapper avec un soft à côté.

Les deux ducky sont des bons choix, reste à voir ton budget et si quelques modes de rétro-éclairage plus câble détachable valent 70€.

Attend pas le RGB il y a pas encore de dates de sortie, et vu que la version française sera l'une des dernières, il peut se passer des mois.

Et méfie toi des browns, tout le monde dit que c'est le juste milieu que c'est tactile etc... comme beaucoup je trouve que c'est le pire switch cherry mx, donc j'espère que tu l'as essayé avant de partir la dessus et que tu te bases pas uniquement sur des lectures.

Actually too lazy to translate , rip muricans, french masterrace :)
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 15:58:28: Dont we all.

On the other hand its so good to have so many choices!
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: Kroah on Thu, 11 June 2015, 16:12:32: Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 15:16:51
Tu peux mettre tes touches QWERTY sans problème sur ton futur clavier peut importe lequel tu choisira.
Le seul problème c'est que les touches de chaque rangées n'ont pas le même profile.
[...]
Ho yes, totally forgot that...

So if i choose the following keycaps set (ISO UK Layout):
http://www.amazon.fr/Ducky-r%C3%A9tro-%C3%A9clairage-Compatible-Keycaps-S9C6-L109-UKALV/dp/B00G6CPGCI (http://www.amazon.fr/Ducky-r%C3%A9tro-%C3%A9clairage-Compatible-Keycaps-S9C6-L109-UKALV/dp/B00G6CPGCI)

A solution for my case would be to ONLY swap the following keys (control, shift, enter, arrows, F1-F12, ESC, etc) to the new purple keycaps (while keeping the vanilla 26 letters + top numbers + numpads keys).
As long as the swapped keycaps are the same between ISO layout (DE, UK, FR), i should get the same result whatever the ISO layout i buy ?
Am i missing something ? :-[

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 15:16:51
Atouts/défauts des 3 boards:
- Ducky Zero Shine Zone : pas de cable détachable , moins de possibilité avec le rétroéclairage , bas prix pour un très bon produit
- Ducky Shine 4 : câble détachable, plus de possibilité pour le rétroéclairage, prix supérieur
- CM Storm Trigger Z : peu cher, qualité inférieure à ducky, design particulier.
Thank for your feedback, much appreciated :).

Quote from: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 15:16:51
Et méfie toi des browns, tout le monde dit que c'est le juste milieu que c'est tactile etc... comme beaucoup je trouve que c'est le pire switch cherry mx, donc j'espère que tu l'as essayé avant de partir la dessus et que tu te bases pas uniquement sur des lectures.
Unfortunatley you are right... i'm only guessing. I think i will hop on the Cherry MX switch tester on Massdrop. It ends up in 4 days.
Do you know how much time it takes after this to get them in France ?

Edit: Do you know any shop in France (Paris ?) where we can test the Cherry MX switches and some WASD/CODE/Max/Pok3r/others keyboards ?
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 11 June 2015, 16:23:59: Yeah as long as it's not caps that are specific to a language you won't have problem about the profile.

MassDrop take a while, not sure you'll even get it by the end of july.

Maybe if Ldlc has a shop in paris maybe you could test some keyboards, not sure.
Otherwise check on Deskthority, there's a small french community and most of them are based around paris, there was even a meet-up like 2months ago.
Get in touch with them, there's probably someone close enough to you so you can try some boards, aswell as getting advice face to face.
http://deskthority.net/en-francais-f21/rencontre-clavieriste-en-region-parisienne-t9899.html
I would help you but I'm in Valence so it would be quite a ride ^^
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:02:27: These threads are always very strange to me.

Rather than fabricate a list of arbitrary criteria from a position of ignorance, I relied on a process of empirical experience.

Beginning with give-away/throw-away keyboards, I kept my eyes open and snagged any keyboard that tickled my fancy.

After actually using dozens/hundreds of keyboards under my fingers, over months/years, I gradually developed my preferences.
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: flamf on Fri, 12 June 2015, 00:16:17: Don't know if you can find it in France, but you can get the Ducky Legend in ISO (Nordic though) with white backlight for around 150€ http://www.webhallen.com/dk-da/computere_og_tilbehor/210186-ducky_legend_mx_brown_white_led&atcl=search:live
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 12 June 2015, 00:35:58: I can see that. I started with a random Acer that I was handed and only after typing on it exclusively for like 3 years did I look for anything else. I did much the same thing, I then got a dell and an IBM M, and after those two a space invader and I attempted cherry blues at the same time.

But I never made a thread like this, either. Especially not just attempting to buy literally one thing and expecting that one thing to actually be very well liked.
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: Kroah on Fri, 12 June 2015, 08:04:59: Quote from: fohat.digs on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:02:27
These threads are always very strange to me.

Rather than fabricate a list of arbitrary criteria from a position of ignorance, I relied on a process of empirical experience.

Beginning with give-away/throw-away keyboards, I kept my eyes open and snagged any keyboard that tickled my fancy.

After actually using dozens/hundreds of keyboards under my fingers, over months/years, I gradually developed my preferences.
I understand your feeling.

I'm always suprised when some friends ask me which perfect mouse they should buy to fit their need.
I own dozen of them and still looking for The Mouse. I tell them to start with some popular mice to find out their grip, weight, sensor, etc.

But beside my QWERTY Atari 800XL keyboard, i never owned a mech keyboard.

[whining on]
I would like being able to get some keyboards, test them after some months, etc...
But i don't have the cash to do that: importing new ISO mechs from US/UK is way too much expensive (shipping cost + VAT).
On top of that, in France, there isn't any shop where you can test mech keyboards (well, in fact some shops have the Logitech ones...).
Friends don't have any mech keyboards (they all have rubber domes) and most of the mech keyboards on ebay are either Logitech, or don't have a french layout.
Maybe i'm too old and only young gamers have mech keyboards.
Of course i could swap to ANSI/ISO-UK to have more choice, but i will still have to import them.

I dont have this problem with mouses because most of the brands (Zowie, Mionix, Roccat, SS, EVGA, etc.) are available in french retailer (Amazon, LDLC, etc.).

The arbitrary criteria you are talking about are new to me because initially, i wanted ONLY a backlit keyboard and being able to customize some color.
THEN, while browsing popular site like WASD, MAX (etc), they asked me "which switches, with O-Ring or not, which layout ANSI/ISO (FR, UK, DE...), which profil, etc, etc, etc...
I did not thought i will have to choose all those things at first for a backlit+some custom keycaps!
This explain why i (we, beginner) need to do those choices "arbitrarily".
And i can't test anywhere to find out: no availability in local shop, even online (ebay), no friend having them, expensive shipping cost, layout problems make it even more worse.
If only those keyboards were way much popular...

[/whining]

TL;DR I go back to my old computer keyboards
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: cheebs on Fri, 12 June 2015, 09:54:06: Ducky Shine 3
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: Kroah on Fri, 12 June 2015, 10:06:35: Quote from: cheebs on Fri, 12 June 2015, 09:54:06
Ducky Shine 3
I would like to add it on my list, but can't find it with a FR layout :-X. Seems to be a collector's piece now... ^-^
Title: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: cheebs on Fri, 12 June 2015, 10:08:43: It's ISO though, right? You can just get some aftermarket keycaps. I think you will be a bit hard pressed to find a non-major OEM retailer offering FR keycaps included with the board.

EDIT: Nevermind, just saw you need backlit FR caps. Alas we all await the day when a keycap seller offers custom backlit keycaps.. Do it WASD!
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: Kroah on Fri, 12 June 2015, 12:07:35: Quote from: cheebs on Fri, 12 June 2015, 10:08:43
Do it WASD!
So true! I think so many people are waiting for this...

It broke my heart when i saw the option wasn't available on the customize page :'(
Title: Re: I struggle to find my dream keyboard
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 12 June 2015, 17:12:48: I would say you can convert your Atari keyboard to PC if you wanted. But that wouldn't get you a backlight, just switches you know.