geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 18:56:58

Title: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 18:56:58
Kailh (Cherry MX clone)
Apple Butterfly
Gateron (Cherry MX clone)
Greetech (Cherry MX clone)
Razer (Kailh) (Cherry MX clone)
Steel Series QS1 (Chrry MX clone)
Logitech Romer-G (Omron)
Topre (mechanical membrane)
Topre Electo-Capacitive Clones (mechanical membrane)
(Gaote) Outemu (Cherry MX clones)
Matias (Alps)


It's a mechanical switch Renaissance!

Just wish Alps had hung on a few more years.
Glad Unicomp carries on the IBM Buckling Spring tradition.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 11 June 2015, 19:54:43
You forgot Matias.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:00:13
I did! Thanks for the correction!  :thumb:
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: demik on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:04:28
Quote
Kaihl
Gateron
Greetech
Razer

can these really be called new switches? they're just cherry clones. sure, new switch maker.. but new switches is a stretch.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:07:30
EDIT: Bad info in quotes.

Quote
Greetech

Red
Brown
Blue
Clear
Black

Gateron

Blacks - 50g Linear
Blues - 55g Clicky
Clears - 35g Linear
Browns - 45g Tactile
Reds - 45g Linear
Yellows - 50g Linear

Razer

Orange - 45g Tactile
Green - 50g Clicky

Kailh

Blue - 60g Clicky
Black - 60g Linear
Red - 50g Linear
Brown - 60g Tactile
Yellow - 50g Linear

EDIT: Bad info in quotes.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:10:08
Is there also a Gaote switch?
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:32:00
Hopefully one of these outfits will wise up and clone the Alps switch and bring back the Alps!
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Joey Quinn on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:39:41
Hopefully one of these outfits will wise up and clone the Alps switch and bring back the Alps!

Matias???
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Thu, 11 June 2015, 20:45:25
Are the Matias switches like Alps?  Im a bit in the dark about those, TBH
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Joey Quinn on Thu, 11 June 2015, 21:00:37
Matias are alps clones. They come in linear, tactile, and clicky.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: neverused on Thu, 11 June 2015, 22:21:12
Are the Matias switches like Alps?  Im a bit in the dark about those, TBH
Yes there is, I use some daily
Is there also a Gaote switch?
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Touch_It on Thu, 11 June 2015, 22:49:54
Matias will likely be about it for new alps, I'd assume.  Reason being you see tons of mx caps, group buys etc and pretty much nothing for alps besides Matias offerings.  However there is a successful  gb for alps modifiers that just wrapped up!
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Norman_the_Owl on Fri, 12 June 2015, 17:45:50
Apple butterfly?
That's not a new switch type.
That's literally just a super low travel membrane keyboard. It's so low travel they had to remove the rubber membrane, lol. It's just a metal plate that gets squashed down onto a contact
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 12 June 2015, 17:58:47
Are the Matias switches like Alps?  Im a bit in the dark about those, TBH

They say that Alps are highly subject to condition. I think they are right, and I must have gotten only bad condition clicky Alps. Which is why I like clicky Matias much more than any white alps I've ever used.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Fri, 12 June 2015, 18:01:54
Im pretty easy when it comes to key switches.  ;D
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: dante on Fri, 12 June 2015, 18:05:06
nm
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Fri, 12 June 2015, 20:54:14
Gaote is the same manufacturer as Outemu (OTM).
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Fri, 12 June 2015, 21:46:15
I found this to be really helpful for people researching switches.

http://imgur.com/a/VUqVE
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: MagicMan on Fri, 12 June 2015, 22:22:53
Is there a way to buy Topre switches? I do like all the different switches too it lets people fine tune what they like.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Fri, 12 June 2015, 22:39:18
Topre isn't exactly a discrete switch, it's more like a series of switches that are molded together. You'd basically need a whole sheet of cup rubber or someone skilled enough to separate a Topre sheet into their own switch keychains as someone has done with buckling spring.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: MagicMan on Fri, 12 June 2015, 23:21:55
Topre isn't exactly a discrete switch, it's more like a series of switches that are molded together. You'd basically need a whole sheet of cup rubber or someone skilled enough to separate a Topre sheet into their own switch keychains as someone has done with buckling spring.

Ah okay, I never really looked into how they work. It would be cool to be able to make a keyboard with them.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: gaucho_81 on Sat, 13 June 2015, 01:16:44
I am very curious about those two new switches presented at Computex, the Flaretech Switch (Adomax) and the Light Strike (A4Tech).
The Fraretech could potentially end up being a very big thing (The first?) analog/gradual switch, and both work with a infrared sensor, not by mechanical contact, sounds very interesting.
There is a post on the forums about the Flaretech, and there is also a video of the A4tech switch on Tek Syndicate.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 13 June 2015, 06:14:35
I'm not so excited. None of them make ErgoClear equivalent switches... Which is really odd to me, since it's the perfect MX style switch and I would have though the clone makers would have figured out how popular these would be, but I guess they haven't.

The closest is Matias quiet click, but I have read some experiences of poor long-term reliability (they develop chattering) and I don't like the wobbly caps. Not to mention the lack of new Alps keycap set options (there's only the Infinity DSA set and Matias stock sets).
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: davkol on Sat, 13 June 2015, 06:54:20
You'd totally love early 90's. The Chinese were spewing one ****ty cheap knock off after another. Much excite indeed. Wow!

Looking at the list, it's
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 13 June 2015, 16:40:49
I would love to see (actually, to feel) an advanced development in springs.

I would love to get a good, clean, clicky key that activated high up, and after activation the spring became rapidly and progressively stiffer.

That proably means 2 springs, a primary "normal" spring and a conical "bottom" spring.

Everybody could forget about O-rings, and you might get a good bounce-back for gaming.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sat, 13 June 2015, 16:50:39
Not sure why you'd want that, because that's actually one of my problems with cherry. Either it is too weak all around like blues or it still isn't enough resistance during typing like clears, but when just holding 'w' down to go forward, it is pushing back too hard and is tiring to continually hold it in place. This is mainly for FPS and the like, however.

RTS players who exclusively play the likes of starcraft or LoL may like that alot.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: rm-rf on Sat, 13 June 2015, 17:01:04
i will say that i would like to have one of these tester boards...
(http://i.imgur.com/jj73GAw.jpg)
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Chromako on Sat, 13 June 2015, 17:26:24
Yes-more vafiety is generally good. I do hope the new Omron and Topre offerings are good. (I have doubts about Topre's analogue response switches as they will probably require a special driver to use the new feature,  and if anything should "just work,"  it's keyboards and watches,  and I want my $200+ keyboard to work with all versions of Windows and NT, DOS,  Mac- Darwin and Classic,  Linux flavour of the month,  poorly coded BIOSes (most of them,  honestly),  Midori, OS/2 Warp, OpenIndiana,  Plan 9, whatever. I deal with a lot of weird OS's,  and the keyboard needs to work from boot up.  If it doesn't,  it better have a very good excuse or be my own fault,  or  it's garbage .)

What bothers me is that a lot of these "new"  offerings are just Asian (okay,  Chinese)  clones of products which had their  patents  expire on them.  We have no idea how good their build quality is or how long they will actually last, and I don't  trust Kaillh's "60 million" number for a minute (FYI,  I'm Chinese myself,  if that means ans anything),  and Gateron's softer stems are asking for trouble in the long run.  Point is,  in the meanwhile,  we have a lot of companies that are converting to these clones for cost reasons,  some which are forgivable,  like the Chinese brands that are keeping production local,  to those that  have no excuse,  like Razor.  One of the major benefits of mechanicals is reliability,  and,  well,  I really hope we don't have to amend that.

 (Matias has been around for awhile and their stuff is great so long as you don't get a speck of dirt in them,  which is authentic Alps behaviour,  so the lesson is that not all clones are bad).  Also,  why do so many copy the Cherry designs? They feel terrible!  /rant
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 13 June 2015, 17:53:11
Steelseries QS1 is made by Kailh, branded for Steelseries. It is not a straight clone of Cherry MX but the inner mechanism has been patterned after Cherry MX. I would rather call it a cheaper alternative to Romer-G.

Razer switches are supposedly also the same as Kailh switches, but looks just like a later revision with the quality improved a bit. (not that Razer switches wouldn't have a bad reputation...)
I'm not sure if Kailh's regular switches have been upgraded also... That would be interesting to know.

Gateron has also made at least two revisions of Cherry MX clones. The first one (KS-1) has a square slider with a circular depression at the base of the stem. The later (KS-3) which has been in the recent GB here has mostly interchangeable parts with Cherry MX.

There is a post on the forums about the Flaretech, and there is also a video of the A4tech switch on Tek Syndicate.
Here you go (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72589.msg1770791#msg1770791).

I'm not so excited. None of them make ErgoClear equivalent switches...
I would like a smoother, less wobbly version of the stock Clear. With backlighting in the centre, lower profile, analogue sensing, longer life expectancy and rubber dampers on bottoming down and topping up with the most noise from the key being at actuation.

It could be done. A Topre switch with a clear silicone dome, a slightly modified dome shape and an additional metal spring (like Topre space bars) would do the trick... But I repeat myself.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: wlhlm on Sat, 13 June 2015, 17:57:49
i will say that i would like to have one of these tester boards...
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/jj73GAw.jpg)

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=41927489594&spm=2014.12317209.0.0 :D
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: divito on Sun, 14 June 2015, 12:15:23
As much as it's nice for lots of switch options to be appearing, I unfortunately fell in love with tactile grey in my daily driver and that's pretty much impossible to find.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: nmur on Sun, 14 June 2015, 12:27:37
As much as it's nice for lots of switch options to be appearing, I unfortunately fell in love with tactile grey in my daily driver and that's pretty much impossible to find.

iirc, clears have the same stem, and are a bit easier to find (still not all too common though). It might be easier to buy a set of clears and swap in some 80g~ springs if you wanted to fill a board.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Sun, 14 June 2015, 12:32:06
I have those switches on the way to me as we speak.  :thumb:
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: divito on Sun, 14 June 2015, 12:35:45
iirc, clears have the same stem, and are a bit easier to find (still not all too common though). It might be easier to buy a set of clears and swap in some 80g~ springs if you wanted to fill a board.

As true as that is (and I do own a Clear board), I'm not into desoldering and such. Acquiring the springs, switches, and finding someone that offers to do the swap is more work and money than is really worth it.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: hwood34 on Sun, 14 June 2015, 14:52:26
As much as it's nice for lots of switch options to be appearing, I unfortunately fell in love with tactile grey in my daily driver and that's pretty much impossible to find.

iirc, clears have the same stem, and are a bit easier to find (still not all too common though). It might be easier to buy a set of clears and swap in some 80g~ springs if you wanted to fill a board.
Something tells me it would be a bit easier to find grey switches than it would 80g springs :p
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Sun, 14 June 2015, 19:02:26
Something tells me it would be a bit easier to find grey switches than it would 80g springs :p

In my experience it is way easier to find heavier springs than lighter springs.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: nmur on Sun, 14 June 2015, 19:10:35
Something tells me it would be a bit easier to find grey switches than it would 80g springs :p

In my experience it is way easier to find heavier springs than lighter springs.

Could always just stack a gateron clear spring + red spring (=80g?) right?  ;)
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 14 June 2015, 19:41:25
You can only compress them so much...
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: hwood34 on Sun, 14 June 2015, 20:25:49
You can only compress them so much...
never say never
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: nmur on Sun, 14 June 2015, 20:48:56


You can only compress them so much...
never say never

believe
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Sigmoid on Mon, 15 June 2015, 09:43:07
Apple Butterfly

I've checked that out at the Apple Store... Calling that a "keyswitch" is like calling a pair of roller skates a "car". Calling it a "mechanical keyswitch" is like calling them a "sports car". Being excited by it is rather unwarranted.

You know those felt cover / keyboard thingies for the Surface Pro? That's exactly what it feels like. Or the buttons on a remote control from the 80s.

Kailh (Cherry MX clone)
Gateron (Cherry MX clone)
Greetech (Cherry MX clone)
Razer (Kailh) (Cherry MX clone)
Steel Series QS1 (Chrry MX clone)
(Gaote) Outemu (Cherry MX clones)

Is there anything exciting about MX clones? They are MX clones. Cheaper ways to get MX stems. As far as I understand, they tend to be inferior to actual Cherry MX switches... Or is there something I'm missing?
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Mon, 15 June 2015, 09:53:56
Is there anything exciting about MX clones? They are MX clones. Cheaper ways to get MX stems. As far as I understand, they tend to be inferior to actual Cherry MX switches... Or is there something I'm missing?

Gateron are lauded in the keyboard community and Kaihua Kailh are very good clones. The rest are pretty much junk from what I've heard.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 16:26:50
Is there anything exciting about MX clones? They are MX clones. Cheaper ways to get MX stems. As far as I understand, they tend to be inferior to actual Cherry MX switches... Or is there something I'm missing?

Gateron are lauded in the keyboard community and Kaihua Kailh are very good clones. The rest are pretty much junk from what I've heard.

I wouldnt call them junk. I would call them much better than your commonplace rubber dome.   

The same mentality with regards to Chinese cloned Alps switches in the 90s.  Now they are appreciated more.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: davkol on Mon, 15 June 2015, 17:01:29
Appreciated more? Do you mean the Tai Hao APC junk or stuff like that? Nah, there's one praised clone (Monterey) and the rest is indeed crap, esp. compared to original complicated Alps switches; even simplified switches are kinda controversial.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Snarfangel on Mon, 15 June 2015, 17:01:31
Something tells me it would be a bit easier to find grey switches than it would 80g springs :p

In my experience it is way easier to find heavier springs than lighter springs.

(http://www.katyspring.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/coil-spring-compression-springs.gif)

Super-ultra-hyper-mega blacks!
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 17:30:59
Appreciated more? Do you mean the Tai Hao APC junk or stuff like that? Nah, there's one praised clone (Monterey) and the rest is indeed crap, esp. compared to original complicated Alps switches; even simplified switches are kinda controversial.

Come on man.

Omron, Mitsui, Futaba, Aristotle, Hua Jie...all made decent key switches. 
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 15 June 2015, 17:53:57
Omron, Mitsui, Futaba, Aristotle, Hua Jie...all made decent key switches.
Aristotle's Cherry MX clones have a reputation of being brittle.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:01:33
Omron also needs to stick with their mouse switches, they are far better than their keyboard switches.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:08:43
Omron, Mitsui, Futaba, Aristotle, Hua Jie...all made decent key switches.
Aristotle's Cherry MX clones have a reputation of being brittle.

Yeah but they were 100 times better than most rubber domes for the 10 years that they worked.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: davkol on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:15:56
So what? Almost anything, including some of the worse domes, is much better than the original rubbery ZX Spectrum keyboard. Does it mean I'll be running around and praising the "almost anything". Not in the slightest.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:28:14
Apple Butterfly

I've checked that out at the Apple Store... Calling that a "keyswitch" is like calling a pair of roller skates a "car". Calling it a "mechanical keyswitch" is like calling them a "sports car". Being excited by it is rather unwarranted.

You know those felt cover / keyboard thingies for the Surface Pro? That's exactly what it feels like. Or the buttons on a remote control from the 80s.

Kailh (Cherry MX clone)


Thanks for your thoughts on the Apple Butterfly thingy. I wasnt endorsing any singular new thingy, just listing some of them.

PS - I think the Gateron & Romer G switches have advantages when using LED backlighting of the key caps as well.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:29:48
So what? Almost anything, including some of the worse domes, is much better than the original rubbery ZX Spectrum keyboard. Does it mean I'll be running around and praising the "almost anything". Not in the slightest.

FYI: You come across as the BMW snob sneering at Hondas & Toyotas.

Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Lepidus on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:39:16
KBT Switches on ducky zero.
http://waishezhi.com/ducky-2087s-keyboard-photo.html
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: davkol on Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:56:10
So what? Almost anything, including some of the worse domes, is much better than the original rubbery ZX Spectrum keyboard. Does it mean I'll be running around and praising the "almost anything". Not in the slightest.

FYI: You come across as the BMW snob sneering at Hondas & Toyotas.
Not really, because BMW isn't particularly functional/reliable/whatever, compared to some alternatives.

I believe it's a great attitude to just get any decent keyboard (especially if it's basically free like many of these semi-vintage keyboards) and stick with it.

Hoarding on the other hand… it takes space, time and effort. What outcome do you expect? I'm all for a more complete Deskthority Wiki (I suck at writing it though). What else?

Meanwhile, there are much more efficient alternatives.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 19:02:44
It's good to have competition, variety, & choices.

Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Mon, 15 June 2015, 19:21:16
As far as that goes, there almost isn't any. A bunch of cherry derivatives plus matias, is still basically cherry and matias. Not only that but nearly all random mech keyboard manufacturers already did use cherry and now that cherry can't make enough the only change they are making is to switch to a cherry derivative.

There are only a couple of keyboard with Matias switches, and besides Matias-made whole keyboards none are on the normal marketplace and they are targeted at enthusiasts only. There was one Matias RGB board shown off a year ago at a CES type thing, and there has been no mention of it since.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: Blaise170 on Mon, 15 June 2015, 19:24:46
New switches have been made but they've been horrible. I don't think very many liked the Omron/Logitech Romer-G too well and it didn't have a cruciform mount either.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Mon, 15 June 2015, 19:37:53
That sounds alot like one whole switch. I'm marginally interested in trying that one, but not enough to buy one. Not like I'd have bought that RGB Matias board.
Title: Re: So excited about all the new switches popping up!
Post by: EscapeVelocity on Mon, 15 June 2015, 19:59:32
I gotta try out one of those Matias keyboards and support their continued production.  Maybe a Quiet Pro.