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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ander on Wed, 17 June 2015, 00:23:06

Title: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: ander on Wed, 17 June 2015, 00:23:06
Just wondered if any of you missed this article from the April, 1986 issue of Info World (which, while copyrighted, I fairly present here for historical/educational purposes):


[attach=1]


"Some joker moved the Control key..."

"Who will use F11 and F12 with millions of machines already out there without F11 and F12?"

Oh well, some people just don't like change.  :?)
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Parak on Wed, 17 June 2015, 01:16:11
I mean, he's definitely right on the CTRL key placement (seriously IBM, way to ruin it for a while there), and I mostly agree on duplicating of the numpad keys.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Blaise170 on Wed, 17 June 2015, 02:53:20
I've been using the Apple M0116 with the Ctrl key next to the A and I don't much like it. I know that I've grown up with Ctrl always in the corners, but I find that it is much easier to reach while I'm typing, though I've always found Caps Lock to be a mostly useless key anyways (which is why I even scavenged the Alps Lock from the M0116 and replaced it with a Matias switch). Also, it was once said we'd never need more than 128MB of RAM, but here we are using F11 and F12, and some people even having boards with F13 through F24. They are especially useful for POS terminals.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 17 June 2015, 04:26:59
Maybe. But Shift-F-keys? Alt-F-keys? Never heard of it. Nor the "Wordstar Diamond" thing.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: E TwentyNine on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:03:02
Dvorak was consistently wrong on so many things it boggled my mind how people kept quoting him over the years.  Haven't heard much from him lately.  Or maybe I'm just not paying attention.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:40:38
Quote from: E TwentyNine on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:03:02
Dvorak was consistently wrong on so many things it boggled my mind how people kept quoting him over the years.  Haven't heard much from him lately.  Or maybe I'm just not paying attention.

What a kid he looks like!

He was hit or miss. Often completely right and completely wrong in 2 consecutive sentences. I loved reading him for entertainment.

If I had to select the single greatest benefit of the straight-ANSI-M layout it would be the dedicated home cluster and arrow keys. When working with numbers and spreadsheets, using the same key for "8" and "up" and having to constantly toggle between them when navigating in a spreadsheet is insane and unworkable. If you need a numpad (and not everyone does, I grant you) then it needs to be something that works with you to increase your efficiency.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:53:25
Hmmm... pretty interesting.

I agree with the Ctrl key placement, although I've now got so used to having it in the bottom left corner, I just can't get used to it in Caps Lock position. Also that 10 F-keys is plenty.

About the duplication of arrows and edits, technically the numpad is the one that's duplicating keys. With the introduction of the dedicated arrows and edits, every single key on the numpad becomes a duplicate of another key on the board. So they should have just dumped the numpad right there.

Would have been interesting to have a "TKL" board as the standard, but based more on the existing PC/XT board. Something a bit like this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6551831d20c89ed921af361c470fb2bd

[attach=1]
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:56:46
And before someone pipes up that they NEED the numpad, "'cos it's faster", it's actually fastest to enter numbers with 2 hands using the top row, so there. A separate numpad would also do the job.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: E TwentyNine on Wed, 17 June 2015, 08:15:33
Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:53:25
Would have been interesting to have a "TKL" board as the standard, but based more on the existing PC/XT board.

You can convert an AT to that layout fairly simply.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Blaise170 on Wed, 17 June 2015, 08:36:15
Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:56:46
And before someone pipes up that they NEED the numpad, "'cos it's faster", it's actually fastest to enter numbers with 2 hands using the top row, so there. A separate numpad would also do the job.

Maybe it's faster for some people. Maybe not. I like using a numpad and there's no reason not to. Having a numpad allows me to use my other hand at the same time that I'm entering numbers. Having to use the top numbers when doing a lot of data entry means I have to move my hand back and forth from the arrow keys.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: nubbinator on Wed, 17 June 2015, 10:54:22
Quote from: E TwentyNine on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:03:02
Dvorak was consistently wrong on so many things it boggled my mind how people kept quoting him over the years.  Haven't heard much from him lately.  Or maybe I'm just not paying attention.

It is pretty funny.  What's even better are all the incredibly flawed studies he did to try and prove how awesome he was.


Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:56:46
And before someone pipes up that they NEED the numpad, "'cos it's faster", it's actually fastest to enter numbers with 2 hands using the top row, so there. A separate numpad would also do the job.

I completely disagree.  I did data entry for a bit in grad school and inputting the numbers by numpad was dramatically faster than I could have ever done via the number row.  Since I had to use the enter key frequently, using the number row would have been incredibly inefficient and would cause additional stress on the wrist since you have to torque your wrist dramatically from the number row to hit enter.  Additionally, the presence of a homing nub/bar makes it easier and quicker to recenter your hand.

Now if all you're doing is entering a random string of numbers that you hit space bar after, yes, it's probably a little faster; however, if you're doing data entry with frequent use of the enter key, doing math functions, or anything other than simply inputting a string of numbers a couple of times in a document, the num pad will be faster, more ergonomic, and overall more efficient.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 17 June 2015, 21:05:37
Quote from: fohat.digs on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:40:38
Quote from: E TwentyNine on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:03:02
Dvorak was consistently wrong on so many things it boggled my mind how people kept quoting him over the years.  Haven't heard much from him lately.  Or maybe I'm just not paying attention.

What a kid he looks like!

He was hit or miss. Often completely right and completely wrong in 2 consecutive sentences. I loved reading him for entertainment.

If I had to select the single greatest benefit of the straight-ANSI-M layout it would be the dedicated home cluster and arrow keys. When working with numbers and spreadsheets, using the same key for "8" and "up" and having to constantly toggle between them when navigating in a spreadsheet is insane and unworkable. If you need a numpad (and not everyone does, I grant you) then it needs to be something that works with you to increase your efficiency.

I think the complaint is that if you're going to have all those dedicated, why bother with the numlock and duplicating functions at all? Just pure number pad and some other useful key instead of numlock. But, I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 17 June 2015, 21:50:39
Well, what do you expect from The Buzzkill? :P

Quote from: E TwentyNine on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:03:02
Dvorak was consistently wrong on so many things it boggled my mind how people kept quoting him over the years.  Haven't heard much from him lately.  Or maybe I'm just not paying attention.

He's on two podcasts regularly, and he stops by TWiT fairly often, when Leo invites him.

The podcasts are the No Agenda Show and Dvorak-Horowitz Unplugged. I listen religiously to No Agenda, and he's really pretty funny on it. He and Adam Curry deconstruct the mainstream media news reports.

Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: ander on Thu, 18 June 2015, 04:55:25
Quote from: fohat.digs on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:40:38
What a kid [John Dvorak] looks like!

Yep. Here's how he looks nowadays.


(http://www9.pcmag.com/media/images/152185-john-c-dvorak.jpg)


Quote from: fohat.digs on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:40:38
He was hit or miss. Often completely right and completely wrong in 2 consecutive sentences. I loved reading him for entertainment.

I think you wrapped up your own point quite well, Fo. The way our world works, often it's the people who are willing to speculate who get the attention, rather than the more conservative types with a more careful idea of what they're talking about.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 18 June 2015, 05:15:01
Quote from: nubbinator on Wed, 17 June 2015, 10:54:22
...

Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:56:46
... A separate numpad would also do the job.

... if you're doing data entry with frequent use of the enter key, doing math functions, or anything other than simply inputting a string of numbers a couple of times in a document, the num pad will be faster, more ergonomic, and overall more efficient.

Just look at how popular TKL boards are and you can speculate that my layout + an optional separate numpad would have suited users very well.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: TouchTypist on Thu, 18 June 2015, 06:09:02
I haven't listened to it in a long time now, but Dvorak used to be a fairly regular guest on This Week in Tech. My commute is much shorter, so I don't have the right time to listen to the podcast anymore.

If you want to catch up on what he's up to these days, you can cruise over to http://www.dvorak.org/blog/ (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/) or for a better collection of recent articles he also has a site at channeldvorak.com (http://channeldvorak.com) (although that one seems to be under construction currently. Must be redsigning.)

He's talked about being wrong on the show before. He doesn't mind it; he said something on the order of most people won't remember the stuff you predict, but when you're right you look like a genius! He's entertaining.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: Sigmoid on Fri, 19 June 2015, 13:00:58
Quote from: ander on Wed, 17 June 2015, 00:23:06
"Some joker moved the Control key..."

"Who will use F11 and F12 with millions of machines already out there without F11 and F12?"

Oh well, some people just don't like change.  :?)

Nah, he's 100% right. The Model M was indeed a gigantic step DOWN from the Model F. (Beside the uncomfortable layout, the technical compromises also hurt a LOT - 2kro, wtf?!)

The only merit of the "navigation cluster" is that people are used to having it, and they are only used to having it because IBM introduced it in the first place. So the old man is perfectly right about that too. And in the last 35 years, I have barely seen any software make meaningful use of F11 or F12 (or, actually, of the function keys in general). :D

Personally, when I used to play a lot on a PC, I always preferred the numpad for directional control...
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: davkol on Sat, 20 June 2015, 05:17:07
Inverted T arrow cluster existed before Model M, and it was quite an improvement.

I've had compact "standard" keyboards with F11 and F12 moved to a Fn layer, and it sucked with more or less CUA-compliant interfaces (not to mention games):
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 20 June 2015, 08:51:57
I use F11 often to maximize and shrink windows.

But F9, F10, and F12 seem useless, so I re-map the left side function keys to F9=F11 and F10=Windows.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 20 June 2015, 12:02:57
He's so wrong about the nav cluster being redundant...

NumPad is much faster and more comfortable than the number row once you have a non-zero amount of practice with it, but you need to be able to control where the numbers are going without having to switch modes in between entering a number and navigating. Assuming that you are using your right, presumably dominant, hand on the NumPad, you can press the arrow keys with your right thumb, and the six-pack by stretching your right pointer, or you could control the entire nav cluster with your left hand. Either solution allows simultaneous rapid number entry and navigation with little or no wrist movement.

Ideally, you'd also have a pointing device integrated into the nav cluster area as well, which would allow you to move the cursor long distances without having to move hand positions to resume the low stress precision control offered by the arrow keys, or having to take your dominant hand off of the NumPad. Note that the first advantage will also be realized when navigating through a text document as well as a spreadsheet, and that the hand spread required will be less than that of a TKL while maintaining all of the functionality of a full size. Many companies, including IBM, Focus, and Access-IS, have experimented with versions of this configuration, but unfortunately, it remains uncommon.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 20 June 2015, 13:09:21
Quote from: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 20 June 2015, 12:02:57

NumPad is much faster and more comfortable than the number row once you have a non-zero amount of practice with it,


And since I keep a mouse on the left as well as the right, I mouse left-handed while entering numbers.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 20 June 2015, 14:22:25
Quote from: ander on Thu, 18 June 2015, 04:55:25
Quote from: fohat.digs on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:40:38
What a kid [John Dvorak] looks like!

Yep. Here's how he looks nowadays.


Show Image
(http://www9.pcmag.com/media/images/152185-john-c-dvorak.jpg)



Quote from: fohat.digs on Wed, 17 June 2015, 07:40:38
He was hit or miss. Often completely right and completely wrong in 2 consecutive sentences. I loved reading him for entertainment.

I think you wrapped up your own point quite well, Fo. The way our world works, often it's the people who are willing to speculate who get the attention, rather than the more conservative types with a more careful idea of what they're talking about.

Um... isn't he the same age as Fohat?
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 20 June 2015, 15:15:34
Quote from: berserkfan on Sat, 20 June 2015, 14:22:25
Um... isn't he the same age as Fohat?

10 weeks older than me
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: ander on Mon, 06 July 2015, 17:51:32
Quote from: TouchTypist on Thu, 18 June 2015, 06:09:02
He's talked about being wrong on the show before. He doesn't mind it; he said something on the order of most people won't remember the stuff you predict, but when you're right you look like a genius! ...

What I'd like to know is, does Dvorak still think the Model M layout was a step backward? His reasoning seems pretty goofy and dated to me, but maybe that's just because I (and most of the rest of us) are so used to what became the standard for nearly everyone.

Quote from: fohat.digs on Sat, 20 June 2015, 08:51:57
I use F11 often to maximize and shrink windows... But F9, F10, and F12 seem useless, so I re-map the left side function keys to F9=F11 and F10=Windows.

Everyone has different philosophies about this kind of thing, of course. By definition, F-keys exist to give programmers single-key shortcuts for whatever they consider most useful (or sometimes most aggravating, LOL) to their users. So I don't see how having a few more could've been considered a bad thing, even if many people didn't use them.

Quote from: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 20 June 2015, 12:02:57
He's so wrong about the nav cluster being redundant...

I must agree. I'm always using the tenkey to enter extended ASCII characters (holding Alt with l hand, typing numbers with right). It'd be much more cumbersome having to do this with the wide numerical row. As far as adding the tenkey's secondary nav functions, I can't say I quite get that, but I don't think they hurt anything.

Woo, key-layout philosophy discussions—this is KB geekery at its purest!
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: chyros on Mon, 06 July 2015, 18:01:38
That article makes for a cracking read in today's world xD . I bet tons of people won't even know what the original layout he's referring to looks like xD .
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: davkol on Mon, 06 July 2015, 18:07:41
Quote from: ander on Mon, 06 July 2015, 17:51:32
I must agree. I'm always using the tenkey to enter extended ASCII characters (holding Alt with l hand, typing numbers with right). It'd be much more cumbersome having to do this with the wide numerical row.
That's because the input method has been designed around the Model M layout though. (BTW extended ASCII? What's that? Anyone using anything but Unicode in 2015, except the Japanese?) Alternatives exist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_input) For example, I only ever use Ctrl-Shift-U, code, Enter in GTK apps—that's perfectly possible even on a 60% keyboard.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: ander on Mon, 06 July 2015, 18:09:03
And let's not even get started on what a kludge QWERTY was—nor how ironic it is we're talking about someone named Dvorak.
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: superhostile on Wed, 08 July 2015, 12:52:40
He's so smug :)
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: hwood34 on Wed, 08 July 2015, 13:56:37
Quote from: ander on Mon, 06 July 2015, 18:09:03
ironic
coincidental*
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 08 July 2015, 18:20:12
Well, You're all wrong because  .. ERGODOX....
Title: Re: Dvorak pans the Model M (1986)
Post by: ander on Wed, 08 July 2015, 23:54:24
Quote from: superhostile on Wed, 08 July 2015, 12:52:40
He's so smug :)

Who—me, or Dvorak? Maybe both of us. In our own ways, we're all smug (marked by excessive complacency or self-satisfaction). In fact the standard 101/104-key layout could be considered smug, with its neatly-organized, specialized sections. You just know where everything is, which is more than I can say for my wife right now. But I digress.