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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => DIY Discussions ARCHIVE => Topic started by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 07:51:54

Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 07:51:54
Can someone with an IBM or Unicomp and a micrometer measure the thickness of the plastic in a Model M-style keycap?
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 09:46:48
Arrigato.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: mech on Fri, 02 October 2009, 10:15:03
hige o sawanaide!
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 10:15:53
Beeru, kudesai!
Title: Help, please...
Post by: mech on Fri, 02 October 2009, 10:31:20
kudasai

kudasaru is one of the older, irregular verbs where the archaic polite (teinei) forms are kept in modern speech.  Most verbs in Japanese are regular, in two variants: ru-verbs (dropping the final syllable), and u-verbs (modifying the final syllable).  Other than the old ones (like kudasaru), the only irregular verbs you are likely to encounter are suru (to do) and desu (to be).

I also tend to be sloppy with the vowel sounds when I speak Japanese, because in English we slant the sound and are still comprehensible (in fact, this is part of what makes our regional accents).  Japanese is a much more fickle language in that regard... tani == seed (tahn-e), tane == valley (tahn-eh).  It is very hard for American (and probably other) English speakers to say these sorts of words distinctly.  Regional accents in Japan tend to modify conjugational forms and words, not vowel sounds... for example, itte (standard) vs. itchoru (rural), both mean "I'm going."
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 11:18:49
All I know is that when I said "Beeru, kudesai", a beer showed up...
Title: Help, please...
Post by: mech on Fri, 02 October 2009, 11:20:48
I'm not saying you will be misunderstood. :)  Next time you're over there, try a chu-hai.  I loved those things.

Also: sorry I nerded out on you.  I'm a lover of languages, human and computer.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 11:44:19
Quote
Also: sorry I nerded out on you. I'm a lover of languages, human and computer.

No apologies necessary; I replied with my tongue firmly in-cheek.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 02 October 2009, 13:29:29
I'll check too when I get home. My recollection is that it's rather thinner than 1mm.

I have a model M that's missing some keycaps - and I don't want to borrow them from the 122-key ones I'm not using (too rare - and in any case, they don't have the right ones) - but I noticed that the Fujitsu keyboard seems to have similar keycaps, and I have one of those that doesn't work. So I may make another addition to my collection of working model M keyboards ready for use.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: msiegel on Fri, 02 October 2009, 14:02:35
are you guys talking about the one-piece keycaps, or the two-piece?
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 14:30:52
I'm talking about the covers for the two-piece keys - keycaps. I call the one-piece versions 'keys' and the bottom of the two-piece 'keystems'.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: williamjoseph on Fri, 02 October 2009, 14:55:01
専門的には、その1ミリメートル
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 02 October 2009, 15:20:13
Quote
You gonna tell us what this is about? Is this settling a bet or you have some devious modding plan.

Sure, I'll spill: It occurred to me a couple days ago that small runs of perfectly serviceable keycaps might be made using vacuum forming. Sheet styrene and ABS come in various colors (including clear). I've never done it before, but a home rig is easy enough to make.

The trick will be making the mold. I initially thought I could just use a keystem mounted a little above the vacuum table, which should form the retaining tabs at the bottom. But I realized that the keystems don't have any concavity; that is built into the thickness of the plastic in the keycaps. So, that means that the mold will have to have the retaining tabs and the concavity while 'bottoming out' on the keystem. I may actually have to make a female mold, rather than a male, and suck the plastic into the keycap mold instead of over it.

Anyway, if I can find the time to get this done and it's a success, the idea is to run off sheets of keycaps and send them out to be cut and finished by the buyer.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: mech on Fri, 02 October 2009, 15:48:29
Quote from: webwit;122394
Yeah, but it ain't French. Japanese is easy.

The thing you should be most careful about concerning pronunciation is you listen and repeat from someone with the right gender and social class. Otherwise you might end up sounding like a girl and not even realize it. For the rest, your Japanese will be better than their English, and whether you sound a bit funny or totally funny, you'll always be gaijin anyway.


Oh yeah.  Back when I lived in Japan, we'd poke fun at the guys who learned the language from their girlfriends and ended up speaking Japanese like a girl.  This is pretty hard to explain to English speakers, though.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: mech on Fri, 02 October 2009, 16:06:04
Well that's not a feminine/masculine thing.

"iku wa yo!" - feminine
"iku ze!" - masculine

They are the same.  I wouldn't have the foggiest on translating those two lines differently in English.  If a guy said the top line, he would be laughed at.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: williamjoseph on Fri, 02 October 2009, 16:28:44
クール
Title: Help, please...
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 02 October 2009, 16:32:06
Quote from: williamjoseph;122405
クール

You'd like to think that you're クール       wouldn't you? :p

What's that in romanji? I'm not very familiar with katakana yet.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: williamjoseph on Fri, 02 October 2009, 16:48:50
way neet......   have been doing rosetta-stone since i downloaded it from bit-torrent about a half year ago.......
Title: Help, please...
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 02 October 2009, 17:34:49
ripster, can you weigh them and see if there is a difference between the one piece and two piece?
Title: Help, please...
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 02 October 2009, 18:56:01
Quote from: mech;122306
the only irregular verbs you are likely to encounter are suru (to do) and desu (to be).


Why is it that these two verbs are always irregular in just about every language? I guess that being the most commonly used ones, they originated before the others...
Title: Help, please...
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 02 October 2009, 19:06:30
English seems to have them as more regular verbs, strangely enough.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 02 October 2009, 19:46:57
Wait...is that a woman?
Title: Vacuum forming....
Post by: clickclack on Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:08:19
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;122392
Sure, I'll spill: It occurred to me a couple days ago that small runs of perfectly serviceable keycaps might be made using vacuum forming. Sheet styrene and ABS come in various colors (including clear). I've never done it before, but a home rig is easy enough to make.

The trick will be making the mold. I initially thought I could just use a keystem mounted a little above the vacuum table, which should form the retaining tabs at the bottom. But I realized that the keystems don't have any concavity; that is built into the thickness of the plastic in the keycaps. So, that means that the mold will have to have the retaining tabs and the concavity while 'bottoming out' on the keystem. I may actually have to make a female mold, rather than a male, and suck the plastic into the keycap mold instead of over it.

Anyway, if I can find the time to get this done and it's a success, the idea is to run off sheets of keycaps and send them out to be cut and finished by the buyer.


I have already done the vacuuming of keycaps and it is a viable method. But depending on its use, perhaps very undesirable. It is however easy (very easy) to make a "home" vacuum box/frame. Using clear styrene, abs, acetate, acrylic, pvc...(you get the point) I have made a few nice little key caps that I have color coded (you can paint them on the inside or put commands in them) and they dont wear.

Don't vacuum into a mold, vacuum over a mold/buck. It's far less efficient sucking into a mold or blowing into on as opposed to slumping over one. The key stems in a model M have a very nice draft angle to them and the will easily produce the results you want. If you would like to be more productive with it you can either make a mold of the key innards (key stem) and duplicate it over a board, or just simply use spare key stems and drill them so that they are slightly rasied above the vacuuming table or board. If you raise them to much cleaing or de-flashing will be a pain in the ass. When you end up with a sheet that has a bunch of keycaps on it you can then either use scissors, x-acto or a paper guillotine to separate. If the plastic sucks under the keycap it will be a pain in the arse to cut out (relatively speaking of course)

You can do this with many different plastics and colors and even make certain textures if you are savy enough (captured vacuum forming). The real attention must however be paid to when you vacuum the plastic. Plastic undergoes three-four simple stages just before its ready to be slumped or vacuumed.
1)it buckles under the heat
2)slumps/sags under the heat
3)tightens back up (raises)
4)sags again (relaxes)

Stage 4 is when you take it away from the heat source and slump or vacuum.
Try to steer clear of heating while slumping, it can cause excess thining and/or deformation.

If you are wondering where this experience is coming from, I have been a professional mold maker for over ten years in the special effects industry.

Hope that helps and have fun.
(it is also a nice way to make a clear keyboard cover, that could fit as snug as a bug in a rug!)
Title: Help, please...
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 03 October 2009, 20:41:38
I got my micrometer out, and what I measured (on the front of the key, since it was more strongly inclined) was 0.78 mm.
Title: Help, please...
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:57:26
Quote from: clickclack;122720
If you are wondering where this experience is coming from, I have been a professional mold maker for over ten years in the special effects industry. Hope that helps and have fun.

Well, I'm gratified to know that my ideas weren't completely crazy! I hadn't thought of painting the insides of clear keys; that's clever.