Looks like a very similar colour palate to calm depths (which was done in SA). Not exactly the same, but likely to appeal to the same sort of crowd. Personally, I prefer calm depths colours to any of these three options.
Welcome to GeekHack! It's cool that you want to hit the ground running, and your keyset looks very nice. Something that comes to mind, though, is that many folks may be understandably reluctant to fork over cash to a brand-new forum member with a low post count and no track record. If you really want to see this keyset made, it might be good to look into running it through SP's Pimp My Keyboard site. That way you're backed by Signature Plastics' credibility, since they handle payments and fulfillment.
Interesting first post...very ambitious...yes indeed.
I took a more detailed look at what you're proposing for logistics.
The reason a group buy is run is usually to get prices as low as possible. If you want to artificially limit the number of sets to ~50, you run the risk of having a double problem: You have more people who want to get into the buy than you have sets and problems are caused, and you miss out on potential lower prices for the community due to economies of scale at higher quantity price breaks. If you take a look at some of the other keyset buys run through SP, many of them have price tiers for different kits, and quite often the savings moving from 50 to 75 sets is significant.
Another thing that comes to mind is if you want all your caps to be mono-legend, that could require new legends to be cut. I don't know how many of those legends would be available, but worst-case scenario is you're paying for 20 new legends to be cut (21 if SP doesn't have "escape", I know they have "esc" though). Legends, IIRC, cost $40 or so per key, so that could be around $850 in up-front costs that you'd have to either eat yourself, or spread across the cost of the sets -- increasing the average price of each set by $17, if you do only 50 sets. Here's another argument for opening the set up to as many buyers as possible.
Now, I'm not trying to discourage you from running the set, but I would suggest that you do some more planning before you move forward planning on a small number of sets. Once you know if there is enough interest in the concept to make more effort worthwhile, I would get in touch with SP. You'll want to ask about any legends you want to use that aren't 100% standard, and see if you can figure out what exists, what doesn't, what you can make (and what you maybe can't), and the process to make new legends, if necessary. Note also that available legends will vary by the key profile you choose. Keep price in mind as well here -- every new legend you make adds a cost to the set, every key you add adds a cost to the set, and if the price goes too high, or if there aren't enough keys to cover common layouts, you'll have a very hard time getting orders.
There have been successful group buys for 60% only sets before (Nostalgia set), but that set was compatible with much more than just an ANSI 125 board, which is what you've mocked up. If you want to be successful, you need to strike the balance between appealing to a wide enough audience to get prices low enough that everyone can justify the purchase, and including few enough keys that the set does not spiral out of control.
Most of this has been largely stream-of-thought, but the point I'm trying to get across is that it can be complicated to design a key set, as much if not more so than handling the shipping and distribution.
MoreI took a more detailed look at what you're proposing for logistics.
The reason a group buy is run is usually to get prices as low as possible. If you want to artificially limit the number of sets to ~50, you run the risk of having a double problem: You have more people who want to get into the buy than you have sets and problems are caused, and you miss out on potential lower prices for the community due to economies of scale at higher quantity price breaks. If you take a look at some of the other keyset buys run through SP, many of them have price tiers for different kits, and quite often the savings moving from 50 to 75 sets is significant.
Another thing that comes to mind is if you want all your caps to be mono-legend, that could require new legends to be cut. I don't know how many of those legends would be available, but worst-case scenario is you're paying for 20 new legends to be cut (21 if SP doesn't have "escape", I know they have "esc" though). Legends, IIRC, cost $40 or so per key, so that could be around $850 in up-front costs that you'd have to either eat yourself, or spread across the cost of the sets -- increasing the average price of each set by $17, if you do only 50 sets. Here's another argument for opening the set up to as many buyers as possible.
Now, I'm not trying to discourage you from running the set, but I would suggest that you do some more planning before you move forward planning on a small number of sets. Once you know if there is enough interest in the concept to make more effort worthwhile, I would get in touch with SP. You'll want to ask about any legends you want to use that aren't 100% standard, and see if you can figure out what exists, what doesn't, what you can make (and what you maybe can't), and the process to make new legends, if necessary. Note also that available legends will vary by the key profile you choose. Keep price in mind as well here -- every new legend you make adds a cost to the set, every key you add adds a cost to the set, and if the price goes too high, or if there aren't enough keys to cover common layouts, you'll have a very hard time getting orders.
There have been successful group buys for 60% only sets before (Nostalgia set), but that set was compatible with much more than just an ANSI 125 board, which is what you've mocked up. If you want to be successful, you need to strike the balance between appealing to a wide enough audience to get prices low enough that everyone can justify the purchase, and including few enough keys that the set does not spiral out of control.
Most of this has been largely stream-of-thought, but the point I'm trying to get across is that it can be complicated to design a key set, as much if not more so than handling the shipping and distribution.MoreThis is all very good information, and Im happy you brought some of this to my attention.
Ive had a foot in the door at Signature Plastics for a while now, over a month in reality. Ive sent in a few different requests for quotes for various ideas, just to see what could actually be done and what couldnt. This particular set poor Melissa has been hearing about for a while now. Things like legend spacing and capabilities have been discussed, and they are all well within the capabilities they possess. However the Escape key actually saying "escape" and not esc, has not been discussed at all. I suggest you're right, they most likely don't have the tooling on hand. However I will be following up on that shortly.
The case of the artificial cap in this case really is only for Melissa's sake. I originally put in ideas about other sets with group buys in mind, practically destroying the poor girl asking for quotes at every conceivable pricing tier, and that just wasn't fair. For this (hopeful) project, I put a 50 set cap on as a soft cap, and as a reference. So when Melissa gets back to me with an official quote, I can officially say, "Hey guys, if 50 people are interested and order, this is what pricing would be." At that point If there was more interest, I would address the community about tiers of pricing as you suggested, and return to Melissa for quotes at tiers we all can agree upon. Ill update my OP with this info, im sorry if that was confusing to you all.
About the physical layout. Im more than happy to mockup MORE layouts, including ISO layouts if people express interest for those things. However, no-one really has yet. However, i did have a request for a planck layout, so ill be mocking that up relatively soon.
Again it was very helpful for you to bring all of that to my attention. I like the input and its helpful going forward with the (hopefully) upcoming stages.
Angus-
Out of sheer curiosity, is there a reason that you want to do this the hard way and not just run these sets through the IC stage with hopes to get it in the new PMK store when that opens back up, hopefully sometime in September?
I tried to look but the links are being blocked as an XSS attack (I've used the layout editor before, never had this problem - aren't updates great?!) so I second the need for screenshots so I can give an opinion :)
Welcome to GeekHack! It's cool that you want to hit the ground running, and your keyset looks very nice. Something that comes to mind, though, is that many folks may be understandably reluctant to fork over cash to a brand-new forum member with a low post count and no track record. If you really want to see this keyset made, it might be good to look into running it through SP's Pimp My Keyboard site. That way you're backed by Signature Plastics' credibility, since they handle payments and fulfillment.
Nice!
The one thing that is really missing is 1.5 Ctrl and Alt kits for winkeyless keyboards, 7U spacebar, and a 2U and 1.75 shift key.
Then it would be perfect!
Reverse calm depths. Definitely
Making the ergodox side mods all R3 to maintain legends is absolutely a mistake, IMO. It will clash badly with the higher profile alphanumerics. Just leave them blank.
I suggest you implement a Google Document with a "Commit at this level" per kit, something like massdrop has for some items. That allows people to buy into the Group Buy without risk and prevents a "chicken or egg" problem, whereby most people will be afraid to order in the beginning when the prices is really high, so the numbers never go high enough to get to the lower price tiers.
Also, be aware that SP STILL haven't made the Row 4 Shift molds, so those will be Row 3... This is really starting to be a PITA. I truly love fully sculptured SA sets, but the Row 3 Shifts on all the sets makes them feel "incomplete" and somehow not professional.
I wish they'd realise how this is impacting their reputation in the community and that it really shouldn't be up to us to pay to have them made. After all, we do not profit financially from any Group Buys / community designed keysets. They do.
Thanks so much for the info on the shift keys, I wasnt aware of that. Ill be inquiring about the cost of having molds made for the going future, maybe we could pull this off.
Oh I mean that in super good way. Sorry I wasn't clear before. Calm Depths has been my favorite set to ever release and I think this could look even better.Reverse calm depths. Definitely
Out of curiosity, do you mean this in a negative or positive way?
I really do love the blue blue grey theme, especially in darker tones. I tried to differentiate, but is it maybe too similar?
Thanks so much for the info on the shift keys, I wasnt aware of that. Ill be inquiring about the cost of having molds made for the going future, maybe we could pull this off.
Between $8000 and $9000 for both R4 2.25u and 2.75u keys, IIRC and according to previous estimates.
Thanks so much for the info on the shift keys, I wasnt aware of that. Ill be inquiring about the cost of having molds made for the going future, maybe we could pull this off.
Between $8000 and $9000 for both R4 2.25u and 2.75u keys, IIRC and according to previous estimates.
Maybe some machinists on here that can chime in, but as far as my understanding goes injection mold tooling is very hard to make and very expensive. I guess it comes as no surprise its monstrously expensive to have those molds made. I guess all we can do is hope SP decides that the molds are worth the investment.
thanks for the info
Thanks so much for the info on the shift keys, I wasnt aware of that. Ill be inquiring about the cost of having molds made for the going future, maybe we could pull this off.
Between $8000 and $9000 for both R4 2.25u and 2.75u keys, IIRC and according to previous estimates.
Maybe some machinists on here that can chime in, but as far as my understanding goes injection mold tooling is very hard to make and very expensive. I guess it comes as no surprise its monstrously expensive to have those molds made. I guess all we can do is hope SP decides that the molds are worth the investment.
thanks for the info
I think there's some talk that it's being worked on internally by SP, but there's a lot of information out there both ways. At this point, I'm not really sure what the exact facts are.
Sexy. I'd hit it.Agreed. I'd tap that.
Yay! Let's keep this alive! OP have you talked to Melissa at all?
At the time of writing this I have little to no idea as to how the system of font and font size works with SP.
SP only has one font available for SA profile keycaps at the moment, called Gorton Modified and it's an engraver's line font, similar in style to Arial and Helvetica. They have at least two different sizes available for the alphas, but I'm not sure about the other caps. Retro SA has slightly smaller legends:
and 1976 is a good example showing the larger version:
Thanks to everybody for sticking around this long.Lol this is nothing, very promising IC's have been up for wayyyy longer. Excited to see this close to completion though!
FInal update. See OP for new info.
Dusk.An elegant, simple, dark themed keyset in Signature Plastics SA profile. I hope you like it!Shes Finished!Pricing tiers are just about finished. This horse is ready for market.
TKL Complete Set. Alphas, Mods, & Color Kit
http://bit.ly/1ictWG9 (http://bit.ly/1ictWG9) - GEW, BED, BBJ Legends, SA family: TKL Base kitShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/FHjvhbr.jpg)
Official Color chips from Signature PlasticsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/jAf2FqP.jpg)
Color Charts from Signature Plastics-
http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/absblue.JPG (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/absblue.JPG) - Blues
http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/absgray.jpg (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/absgray.jpg) - Greys
-----Main Kits-----
Alphas
http://bit.ly/1KmNtif (http://bit.ly/1KmNtif)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/8ZEsqBt.jpg)
Modifiers
http://bit.ly/1Y5JXyP (http://bit.ly/1Y5JXyP)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/O6meahr.jpg)
-----Child Deals-----
Ergodox Kit
http://bit.ly/1VZ2ISy (http://bit.ly/1VZ2ISy)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/6R4CtAB.jpg)
Keys will be fully sculptured.
Additional Mods Kit
http://bit.ly/1NA1jQT (http://bit.ly/1NA1jQT)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rup3bRV.jpg)
Mod sizes are 1.5u and 1u, with spacebars being 7u & 6.5u
Numpad Kit
http://bit.ly/1KPpjiD (http://bit.ly/1KPpjiD)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/cweQgPn.jpg)
The "+" And "Enter" keys will both be SA R3
Planck + Atomic Kit -
http://bit.ly/1NsHf1i (http://bit.ly/1NsHf1i)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/AwM2QDt.jpg)
ISO Kit -
http://bit.ly/1J8VNNi (http://bit.ly/1J8VNNi)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/2GqlMoT.jpg)
Color Kit / Mod kit
http://bit.ly/1LdoQVZ (http://bit.ly/1LdoQVZ)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/cZe3RCF.jpg)
On the business side of things its all good! This set is finalized and ready to go./size]
-----Additional information-----
The caps are set to be made out of Doubleshot ABS plastic.
The keys will be SA family
These keycaps will be made for Cherry MX Stems only
International shipping will be included in this group buy.
This set will run with the new row 4 shift molds Oobly recently announced. The set will be a true fully sculptured SA set.
Thanks everybody for sticking around this long. I hope you all like the set.
Hippo-
Aww man, so many good SA sets recently.
Can't decide on one!
This is going to run on PMK?
Aww man, so many good SA sets recently.
Can't decide on one!
This is going to run on PMK?
this group buy I plan on running right here on geekhack
Aww man, so many good SA sets recently.
Can't decide on one!
This is going to run on PMK?
PMK or PimpMyKeyboard is Signature Plastics online shop. PMK runs group buys through their website. Unfortunately the only way to get a group buy on there is to have it voted in which can take a long time with no guarantee. If this buy turns out to be small, which I fully plan on it being small due to the interest its generated, I still want it to run and everybody to be happy.
this group buy I plan on running right here on geekhack
I could be wrong, but he may be referring to the manufacturer.
Aww man, so many good SA sets recently.
Can't decide on one!
This is going to run on PMK?
PMK or PimpMyKeyboard is Signature Plastics online shop. PMK runs group buys through their website. Unfortunately the only way to get a group buy on there is to have it voted in which can take a long time with no guarantee. If this buy turns out to be small, which I fully plan on it being small due to the interest its generated, I still want it to run and everybody to be happy.
this group buy I plan on running right here on geekhack
I could be wrong, but he may be referring to the manufacturer.
Definitely interested!
But one question, I have a Logitech G710 with the non standard bottom row; will I be able to buy a separate 6.5u space bar with the base set?
Pricing tiers are finished! All that is left is for official mockups or renders to be made, and to iron out any buy-associated fees!
We're getting close!
Are the punctuation/numbers only going to have the one symbol on them, or will they have both?
The only thing keeping this groupbuy from opening is respect for other groupbuys. I dont think it would be very fair to other groupbuy runners/owners or to the community to have my buy run at the same time as others run.
Are the punctuation/numbers only going to have the one symbol on them, or will they have both?
Symbols only*
Sorry was at work and on my phone replying.
The only thing keeping this groupbuy from opening is respect for other groupbuys. I dont think it would be very fair to other groupbuy runners/owners or to the community to have my buy run at the same time as others run.
The group buy process is flooded and that isn't going to change any time soon. You might as well submit it as soon as possible.
I would prefer to wait for SP to deal with the backlog they have. No need to bog them down with more
I would prefer to wait for SP to deal with the backlog they have. No need to bog them down with more
I'll just flat out tell you that nobody else is going to wait on them. They are working on extra shifts i think to help manufacturing times, but other communities and members will be sending more work their way sooner than later. My sets are on a pretty set schedule already, and I know a few other designers have the same kind of schedules they have to stick with.
Hey everybody, im working on the Google Order form! We should be seeing this happen very very soon!Fcking gr8 news man! My wallet is fcking ready!!!!!
I realized u/LivingSpeedBump is right. There will be more orders no matter what. Before the buy happens and before the invoices, I will try and get a soft date for manufacture date.
Were almost there! ;D :cool:
Yes I thought about doing something like that. In the end I decided to go with what was most uniform. The set is centered around simplicity and I wanted to keep it true to its core.
You arent wrong, and I did toss around the idea for a while. It may still happen, meaning everything but bottom row would be fully sculptured with the bottom row and arrow keys being row 3. Now that you bring it up Im going to reconsider.
Thanks for the input!
Well, the rest of the keys on the bottom two rows are fine staying R4; to get the most benefit, you should only change the keys that I mentioned.
Well, the rest of the keys on the bottom two rows are fine staying R4; to get the most benefit, you should only change the keys that I mentioned.
Maybe have a seperate pack for it then? I personally don't want to buy a set with mis-matched profiles. I understand the economic benefits, but that'll just look ugly.
almost every spacebar has a different profile than the rest of the keys on its row
almost every spacebar has a different profile than the rest of the keys on its row
This just isn't true. The spacebar isn't sculpted like the other keys in its row, but in most profiles its still uniform profile.
almost every spacebar has a different profile than the rest of the keys on its row
This just isn't true. The spacebar isn't sculpted like the other keys in its row, but in most profiles its still uniform profile.
It can be clearly seen from the official Signature Plastics datasheet for the SA profile (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/SAFamily.pdf (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/SAFamily.pdf)) that the profile used for spacebars is indeed different.
almost every spacebar has a different profile than the rest of the keys on its row
This just isn't true. The spacebar isn't sculpted like the other keys in its row, but in most profiles its still uniform profile.
It can be clearly seen from the official Signature Plastics datasheet for the SA profile (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/SAFamily.pdf (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/SAFamily.pdf)) that the profile used for spacebars is indeed different.
That's true, I thought you were talking about just keysets in general. However, trust me that a spacebar that looks a bit different is very different aesthetically than a bunch of keys that look out of place.
You arent wrong, and I did toss around the idea for a while. It may still happen, meaning everything but bottom row would be fully sculptured with the bottom row and arrow keys being row 3. Now that you bring it up Im going to reconsider.
Thanks for the input!
Sorry for the mess on this thread.
Sorry for the mess on this thread.
Dude it's literally fine. We were having a good debate, that's what IC threads are for, so this doesn't end up on the GB thread.
By the way, how would you like it if SP made SA convex R3 keys in 1.25u and 2u? Would you prefer that the Alt keys and the number pad 0 keys be in this profile instead?
By the way, how would you like it if SP made SA convex R3 keys in 1.25u and 2u? Would you prefer that the Alt keys and the number pad 0 keys be in this profile instead?
That's interesting, but I feel like it would be a bit weird, because the surface area of the key would be effectively reduced.
Looks good. Maybe I missed it, but are you purposefully omitting the usual dual legends on keys that usually show both the uppercase and lowercase symbols, such as the number keys and brackets keys?
EDIT: Will there be an option for swapping Backslash and Backspace in addition to swapping CapsLock and Left Ctrl?