I looked at Deck for a long time, but I decided not to go with them for a few reasons. Build style is not the best, no tactile tenkeyless products, the keys look too thin on top and the price is high. That's one expesive Deck.
Down the road I may look into modding a Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry Clears...
I don't think that's really too much cheaper, really.
Before I got into keyboard collecting I was thinking that the Cherry Brown would suit me best. I got a Filco with browns and I used that board for about three months and then gave blues a try on a Cherry G80. The blues totally blew my mind and made the browns seem like a joke with no tactility at all. This could mean that I either have strong fingers or just like a more tactile switch. Browns after all do seem tactile enough to a bunch of people. Shortly after I gave my first ALPS switches a try and finally realized that I do like clicky switches after all.
As for gaming.. the game I play was fine to play on the Browns and Blues.. recently I started playing another MMO (fast action beat em up) and the blues don't seem to cut it here. I got out a G80 with blacks and it seems much nicer to play with that.
QUOTE]
This was very helpful. Thanks :)
brown is pretty tactile, to me
not audibly clicky
but has the bump halfway down
Are there any good new ALPS boards being made to consider? I know ALPS went out of buisness and Matias bought up a ton of those switches for the Tactile Pro.
I have yet to find any ALPS boards with the appearent quality of a Filco Cherry Tenkeyless. I noted Filco has the Zero with unmarked ALPS, but I gather they are not as good as the Cherries. Am I wrong?
I think ALPS are a fairly decent switch. The problem is that there are at least 3 different types of clones of them by now: XM, Fukka, Strongman. The Fukka switches were just recently introduced and seem to replace the XM switches. If you look at EliteKeyboards you will notice they have a new 87-key Filco Zero (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87zeb) as well as a B-Stock 87-key Filco Zero (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87zeby). The B-Stock ones use the old XM switches which feel stiff to most people. The new version uses the Fukka switches which are said to be physically identical to the original simplified ALPS switch. The company producing them is apparently using the old ALPS factory, going by what we know.
More info regarding the Fukka switches:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6797&highlight=fukka
The problem here is that the new version of the Filco Zero has a scanrate problem which CAN cause typos if you reach very high speeds (about 115 WPM from my tests). If you type slower than that this might actually be a good board to consider.
If you are interested in reading more about the controller scan rate problem check out the following links:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7122 (review and summary of the problem)
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7275 (statement from EliteKeyboards)
As you see... ALPS are serious business. And we did not even have ripster post in here yet! He will probably demonstrate why you should at all costs go with blue Cherry MX instead of ALPS using Lego figures as soon as he wakes up.. with something like this:Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4672&stc=1&d=1253639995)
Curious about the Cherry White Legend from Deck tho. Does anyone like this board? Or can comment on Decks build quality?
dont get that gaudy raven the fortress is okay if youre into the layout but i cant believe silverstone makes something like the raven
Are the browns bad for gaming?? Seriously is it going to ruin the experience?
I would like a blank key Otaku version as I figure it looks kewl and the silk screened characters will just rub off anyway.
The problem here is that the new version of the Filco Zero has a scanrate problem which CAN cause typos if you reach very high speeds (about 115 WPM from my tests). If you type slower than that this might actually be a good board to consider.
I've been using a Filco majestouch daily for 4 years and the letters look as good as the day I bought it. Where'd you hear otherwise?
There isn't a scanrate "problem" with the Zero; the scanrate is what it is to prevent bouncing with the switches it uses. All boards "CAN" cause typos if you type fast enough.
115? The Zero can do a lot better than that, so maybe this is you. Additionally the WPM metric really is a bad reference when you're talking about scanrates, I like max keypresses per second (kps). WPM is calculated differently by different typing evaluation programs and sometimes it is an average, sometimes it is a max.
There isn't a scanrate "problem" with the Zero; the scanrate is what it is to prevent bouncing with the switches it uses. All boards "CAN" cause typos if you type fast enough.
115? The Zero can do a lot better than that, so maybe this is you. Additionally the WPM metric really is a bad reference when you're talking about scanrates, I like max keypresses per second (kps). WPM is calculated differently by different typing evaluation programs and sometimes it is an average, sometimes it is a max.
I don't know - my other ALPS boards don't cause any problems, neither do my Cherry boards.
Also I mentioned the WPM simply because that is what you do on a keyboard: type words.
This is the only way for me to explain the problem since other boards (besides the SGI 101AT which blocks almost all my bottom row keys at 115 WPM) do not give me any problems at the same WPM rate, measured with the same software and on the same setup.
I find this a much more fitting explanation of the problem (especially for people new to the keyboard business) rather than explaining about actual rollover/scanrate tests ala rolling a credit card over the keys. I personally could not care less if I can roll a credit card over six keys as long as I can type on the board fine at my usual speed.
I've been using a Filco majestouch daily for 4 years and the letters look as good as the day I bought it. Where'd you hear otherwise?
i have the deck legend 'tactile' with the white led lights. it is built like a tank, everybody that has seen it likes it & wants one, the cherry mx clears(whites i say:)) are a perfect cross switch for gaming & typing based on my very limited experience - i am making less mistakes gaming & typing & my typing speed as increased(still very, very slow compared to everybody here though).
if you are not a touch typist the white leds give very good visibility(& look way cool) of the keys in any light. i really dont know what you mean by a mean by 'build style not the best' or 'keys look to thin on top' it actually has very clean lines & has the same basic style as most othe kbs out there. as far as the keys themselves go you will be hard pressed to find more durable keys on any kb.
i think if this kb was tenkeyless it would be exactly what you are looking for, unfortunatly for both of us(i never use the numpad) it isnt.
this is an expensive kb but given what filcos cost, add the best led setup out there & from all reports more durable keys, i dont think the cost is so bad. assuming those things are important to you. & have i said i absolutely love the switch 'action' ;)
fyi, take at look at coolermaster cases, they have excellent build quality & design.
There have been some substantiated claims of letter wear on the Das (bigpook is one), but I have nerer heard of it or seen it, personally, on a Filco.
Now that's the problem....
With that particular font this is not a good thing.
Buy a TG3 BL2-82 (manufacturer of the Decks). Killer looks.
Can't wait forever, I've got to pick something soon. I want a decent keyboard(s) for gaming/typing in my hands around the time Modern Warfare 2 comes out. Typing now on a $15 Logitech and it sucks (and hurts during long typing sessions). And its one or two boards for now as I got a bunch of other things to get.most of the stuff with the case i think you are overthinking. run it stock and properly ventilate it and you wont need something like the RAVEN to cool your stuff (not that the raven is that good at internal airflow)
I need to get my PC Case (my current one is slightly too hot for gaming, an old Thermaltake with 80mm fans), my Deathadder 3500 Mouse, my Megasoma Mousepad, and my Keyboard, whatever form that may take. Oh and I need to buy some highend aftermarket Heatsinks for my Rampage II Gene Mobo. I read one of its only flaws was small chipset heatsinks. specifically on the north or south bridge. I forget. Wish I waited for the P55 era (cheaper prices, i7 cpus on P55 have better turbo mode and use 33% less power, so it should run much quieter), but then again now I get the 6-8 core CPUs later on with the X58 platform, more PCI lanes (if we ever actually use them) and it overclocks better due to the PCI controller thingy being separate from the CPU. Plus I want to upgrade my Dell EIPS 22" 2209wa to a Dell HIPS 24" u2410 (for the HD resolution, not so much the size). Oh and some decent speakers.
So while I do want to get this keyboard stuff right, it's only one piece of the current puzzle, not the right time to explore my keyswitches! Gotta pick one or two max. But I wanted to say this forum has been a source invaluable info. Every post has helped in someway... keep em coming :)
Looking it up now, does not google too nice yet.... any links?just google BL82. not sure what ripster got that model number from.
intlstln, forgive me, but here is a post where you're talking about key wear on your filco:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=111555&postcount=29.
I have to agree with majestouch on the keywear problem. The keys get shiny, yes, but I have never seen the letters start to wear. I have 3 Costar-made 'boards and none of them have exhibited any type of wear in the letters. ABS is a softer plastic and will smooth out fairly quickly, especially since there is not much texture on the Filco's keys anyway. Some folks like it, however, as it improves grip on the keys for them. If you want the ultimate in key cap durability, then you will have to go with a Cherry-made 'board as they use POM and PBT for their caps. I have been using my Filco for about 7 months and couldn't be happier.
Now... where's that guy who was talking about the POM replacement caps for Filcos?
I would like a blank key Otaku version as I figure it looks kewl and the silk screened characters will just rub off anyway.
This may be coating-wear -- either way the lettering goes
laser-etched keys may not be a selling point for some buyers, but its for the buyer to decide for himself or herself, and I dont think we should let these experiences be 'buried'; a review forum is supposed to bring up (not bury) negative experiences so the buyer can make their own decisions about their personal priorities. What good is a review/enthusiasts forum that buries negative experiences? Even if these experiences are in the minority, its only at a review forum that you'll even be informed about them. If you want a monolithic sales pitch, visit vendors sites for that. If you want to hear (and evaluate for yourself) a variety of end-user experiences, come to a review forum like geekhack.
but vista is so slow... plus it isn't easy to use!
.not sure why some keep harping about the font on the deck kb. i like it & everybody that i know that has seen it likes, while of course its a personal opinion to go on abvout it everytime somebody mentions 'deck' is a little overboard. unless you really, REALLY DONT LIKE IT. lol.
op. the pictires of the deck kb on the site reaaly do not d othem justice. the case looks better, & the keys look way better. you would think they would take the trouble to show them with more angles, under a couple of different lighting setups & better res.
i really dont like the deck letters
THEY JUST REMIND ME OF THIS
THAT'S ALL
what wellington is saying, warranty or not, is that your site policy is "returns for exchanges only" (right?) and that the keyboard even in pristine state still has the problems. an exchange would not help him.
i mean, i am glad i didn't buy a zero b-stock, the price is awesome, but having issues at that speed (even though i am not there yet) is kind of unacceptable for a high-end keyboard on ELITEkeyboards.com.
it isn't an easy thing to solve, of course, the people here would rather you take the keyboard off the site to avoid confusion, or perhaps put up a "WARNING..." message. but from a seller's point of view, everything sold everywhere is a decision of the consumer. not every product out there is perfect and people are expected to do their own research. you are not selling knock-offs or defective items... just an item that has a known issue.
now filco, on the other hand, is certainly to blame for the printed keycaps (come on, could be laser at least for a board this expensive) AND the zero issue.
i just hope my caps don't wear... but i think i know why they do (quickly) for some people. i wash my hands, type lightly. when i play games, i keep my fingers in place. i see other people take their gritty fingers from right after eating something salty, for example... and then RUB it into the keys, SLIDING their fingers all over.
the only reassuring thing is that the blank keycaps are there. after finding all this out i am glad they do NOT have the 'coating', one less thing to wear away! the board might be better initially with the coating and printed caps, but after time it looks worse. i almost with there were glossy plastic caps so that they didn't get shiny over time, too.
Blame? Diatec has invested quite a bit into a proprietary printing and coating process that is unique to the industry. The fact that I've only ever seen and heard about ONE photo of one key that exhibited anything approaching the classification of "letter wear" is testament to the success of this process. Defects, of course, do occur. This isn't a sales-pitch, it's just statistics. Find me some other FILCO boards with worn lettering if you'd like to make me think otherwise:)
At what speed? Do you type 115WPM? Have you ever seen someone typing that fast? It's approaching a blur, so it is very hard to say what causes a mistake at those speeds.
Typo - It is a very rare form of controller error where the controller goes forward in the time/space continuum to include an extra keystroke. I blame the firmware engineers.
there is no way you can prove that, and you don't even type 115wpm.
MsKeyboard (who has seen more keys than I will ever in my lifetime) also said that Lasered sounds better than it looks
XD when chloe gets back, she's gonna be pissed
No one is trying to bury negative experiences (at least in regards to key wear), but there is also something to be said about blowing small issues out of proportion, assuming an issue might exist when it doesn't, and creating issues that don't exist. .
Gee Chloe - they sure LOOK white!Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5147&stc=1&d=1255561982)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5080&stc=1&d=1255153713)
In another thread, here's (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=124122&postcount=46) itlnstln saying "It's only laser-etched keys for me now." (And that was just 5 days ago).
Were you "blowing things out of proportion"? And why the about-face?
Webwit: *Makes dirty joke about nipples, quality action and double-shot*
Ripster (in response to Webwit): "Ewww..... I'll never look at any posts with 'double shot' in them the same now.
ItlnStln (in response to Ripster): "It's only laser-etched keys for me now."
Welly, now you're getting not only skeptical but rather argumentative.
This post started out innocently enough:
I'm beginning to see why Brian O'Neill doesn't sell to you anymore.
nevermind, that was old news, cherry browns in otaku.
I am getting tired of waiting for the Filcos tho.
All on the basis of I need a tenkeyless for better gaming.
I just might go with the Deck Tactile Legend now. Ordered up my new Lian Li PC-X1000 PC Case and my XFX 5850. Got the new upgraded Deathadder and Megasoma. Just need the dam keyboard and I am set for Modern Warfare 2.
I'm getting tired of waiting too! But I can't speed up the factory workers however:( We're getting the tenkeyless otaku with browns again sometime this month though.
I searched, but I can't seem to find anything on it.
Odd, it has been discussed more than once.
They are considered bad, the reason being that when released, they don't really 'unclick'. What this means is that if you want to repeatedly press a key, you don't really know how far you have to let it go back up before you can press it again. Sounds odd, but you'd find out soon enough if you played an FPS with one.
That doesn't mean that they are diaolically bad, just that they are not ideal. Browns would be a better choice because the tactility is subtle and therefore doesn't really interfere with that kind of thing.
Get the filco otaku 87 key if you are worried about keycap wear.
Which got me thinking, they sell a blank keycap set at Deck for $25, which someone noted that you can put on any Cherry MX switch. So if I wanted, I could grab the blank Deck caps, put them on the Filco. Even mod the Filco with LEDs.
Most Cherry-switch boards have "sculpted" key caps, meaning the shape in each row is slightly different. This lets the key tops follow a curve even though the switches are attached to a flat circuit board.
The Deck folks took a different approach and used the same key cap shape for all rows.
I believe the Deck blank caps should work on the Filco (except for the ones to the left of the space bar, which are narrower to fit in Deck's FN key), but they will have a different shape than the Filco key caps.
It was just a random thought, of course I am not pursuing this idea.
I think you'll be happy. I'm on the filco right now and as an ex-'pro' fps gamer, the key action is just fine.
Glad to see you have finally pressed the "No Return (http://www.kettlewoodweb.co.uk/Images/buy_mouse.jpg)" button and purchased your Final Decision.
After due consideration derived from this Post, I've decided on a Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Click (seduced by the alluring pretty green lights) without WASD as I'm far too old for games. Also decided to add a "Clear acrylic Keyboard Roof (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,roofs&pid=rfmek#)", not so much for the "Je ne sais quoi" but more to do with my old clumsy trembling hands. Accidents occurring even more frequent as Time flies, and the green lights are more soothing for my blurring eyes.
how bout cherry blues?
That does sound a lot like my own experiences with the brown. I was very disappointed by not really being able to feel the tactile bump when actually typing. The only way I was able to feel it was by pushing the keys individually, very slowly.
I gave the board time to see if it would grow on me.. about three months. I did not. Ultimately I ended up liking the blues so much more. By now thanks to all my various kinds of G80s I often type on Cherry Blacks and I actually like those a lot too by now.
Its hard to give more advice, the ultimate way to find out which switch really is for you is by going through all of them :/
I like the Browns alot, the quesiton is will I like something else more. So your right in that I could gain from trying out more keyswitches. Honestly I am just glad I got something decent to type on for a change. The lack of tactle bump feel does not bother me, just surprising that they even call it a tactle bump! I just wanted something to type and game on with a degree of quality. In that it succeeds for now. I can try the Blacks and Blues next year. I will give them all a try eventually. That's the beauty of these Filcos. You can try every switch almost, even the Alps copies. No need to hunt down other keyboard designs. These will all look and feel good, come in Tenkeyless, etc, you just have to find the switch you want. Then you can sell all the other ones here! Sweet! I would try the Topres, but I will not buy a variable pressure keyboard, or one without an arrow key section. Common. I need those.
... I often type on Cherry Blacks and I actually like those a lot too by now.
That's what really surprised me too.
I had bought a EU layout board with blacks which I then replaced with blues and put the blacks in the German layout board.
I plugged that in just for a little spin and for my girlfriend. She really needs those "Umlaute".
Now I use it regularly when at home and it's really nice. I like the force needed to actuate the key much better then the light blues. I'm thinking of swapping the springs (just the springs, so tactile, clicky, but a little higher actuation force). Has anyone tried that?
Nice idea but given the effort involved, I'd rather go and get myself a Model M.