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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 08 October 2009, 22:16:06

Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 08 October 2009, 22:16:06: I did it. I ordered a Realforce 103 White. This thing has been bugging me too much. Every month, I budget a sum as pocket money and I sunk almost every penny of this sum into a single keyboard. My wife offered to pay half of it as an early Christmas gift, but I just could not take her money for a keyboard. In fact, I hate taking her money. I grew up in a family which for a long time was working hard to meet the ends, I just end up learning to depend on myself.

I just hope I won't regret it. Please send some support message :-)

That's it. I won't buy any keyboard now. I have (will have) every switch I wanted to test: Buckling Spring, ALPS, Cherry Blue and Brown, and now capacitive switches.

The real factor in the switch is the Cherry Brown really. I said it before, and I would to say it again: I LOVE MY CHERRY BLUE. When it was the quietest board in my collection, I did not realise how loud it was. When I got the Filco, it was night and day. Even my wife who before was not bothered by the blue Cherries, noticed a different and I could not use the blue Cherries at night anymore. Ignorance is bliss. I will be typing a lot at night because of my Social Psychology course. The Realforce will help. Right now, my baby is not sleeping well because she's teething. A quiet keyboard will hopefully help. Besides my MacAlly Icekey, this is my second white keyboard in a collection of black keyboards.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 08 October 2009, 22:46:33: Quote from: ripster;124006
You'll be amazed how quiet the Topre is. I think you'll love it and your wife sounds like a real sweety.

I hope I'll love it too although it's easier to like something when you have spent a lot for it. My wife is sweet indeed. She knows how much this thing has been on my mind. I kind of knew she was going to order one without me knowing for Christmas. In order to prevent her from doing so, I told her that I was not sure if I wanted the white one or the black one, or if I wanted a RealForce or a HHKB :-) In fact, I pretty much knew I wanted the Realforce.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 08 October 2009, 22:51:06: ah yes. i remember you getting the brown at the start of my "one keyboard to rule them all" thread. and now you have them both.

and so do i.

wow.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 08 October 2009, 22:51:29: I don't think I would have gotten one if it was not from elitekeyboards.com. Knowing how Majestouch stands behind his products, I have more confidence getting one. I could probably asked my uncle to get me one from Japan. He just came back from Japan actually, but warranty would have been a hassle. For that kind of money, I want to have the piece of mind of warranty.

I have one thing to say about elitekeybaords.com: First Class Service. I refer to the site each time I can when commenting on YouTube videos.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 08 October 2009, 22:52:35: Quote from: AndrewZorn;124011
ah yes. i remember you getting the brown at the start of my "one keyboard to rule them all" thread. and now you have them both.

and so do i.

wow.

Yes, LOL. How do you like yours?
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 08 October 2009, 23:12:56: hhkb is perfect
filco is more fun
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: MsKeyboard on Fri, 09 October 2009, 08:53:32: Patrick,
You will not be sorry, Great Keyboard! Been using a 103UB for about two months now and it really does stand out as a unique typing experience.

Take some time getting used to the switches before making any judgements, rather soft yet positive, hard to explain. The real proof is trying to use something else once you get used to the feel.

Don't fret the purchase, you'll soon be obsessing over something else ;)

Later.....
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 09 October 2009, 10:03:17: Quote from: MsKeyboard;124075
Patrick,
You will not be sorry, Great Keyboard! Been using a 103UB for about two months now and it really does stand out as a unique typing experience.

Take some time getting used to the switches before making any judgements, rather soft yet positive, hard to explain. The real proof is trying to use something else once you get used to the feel.

Don't fret the purchase, you'll soon be obsessing over something else ;)

Later.....

Thank you. I decided to get the black one instead of the white one since it's out of stock.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:07:35: Quote from: AndrewZorn;124017
hhkb is perfect
filco is more fun

If you think the Filco with Brown Cherry MX key switches is fun, just wait until you try a Filco with Blue Cherry key switches!
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:16:06: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;124094
Thank you. I decided to get the black one instead of the white one since it's out of stock.

The black one is tres cool man (well, as cool as a 103 keyboard can be).

My wife get's frustrated when she can't see the key cap labels on my Realforce 87U and makes comments like "Why would any sane person label black keys with black lettering?" I just say that the Japanese care about being cool more than being sane. Then she goes back to using her own computer and crap rubberdome keyboard.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:16:59: Quote from: maxlugar;124152
If you think the Filco with Brown Cherry MX key switches is fun, just wait until you try a Filco with Blue Cherry key switches!
yeah i know
initially i shunned the idea of so much racket
now, typing on the brown, i want more...

at least i got the one i have for cheap, if i decide to make the jump (because it is a jump, i cant imagine it being worse) i will actually get what i want: blank, tenkeyless, nkro.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: Clicky Kat on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:20:07: I'll definitely second Ms Keyboard's comments. I have the 103UB. It really is a neat typing experience and a wonderful solid board. Very smooth and silky and conducive to lots of typing.

Enjoy!
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:20:23: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;124005
I will be typing a lot at night because of my Social Psychology course.

Social Psychology huh? When you complete the course, maybe you can help some of us with our little keyboard obsession issue. After all, it's just a keyboard.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:25:55: i think as a social psychologist he would be more likely to write papers about a society of keyboard enthusiasts

"observe, in their natural environment, how they do not fear being judged, and can carry on conversations about things as trite as letter-printing techniques with an uncanny zeal..."

Quote from: ripster;124160
Some of you guys would make terrible waiters. You're supposed to say, "Excellent Choice!".
Show Image
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/06/29/gal_ratatouille4.jpg)
you mean like telling people what you REALLY think when they ask you your opinion, while working in sales?
i cant help it
so much buyer's remorse prevented, though
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:32:29: Quote from: AndrewZorn;124154
yeah i know
initially i shunned the idea of so much racket
now, typing on the brown, i want more...

The blues are comparatively quiet next to the Filco Zero (or any real or fake ALPS key switch keyboard) and very quiet next to the 84-key PC AT Model F. The Model M's are just as loud as blue cherry key switches, but the pitch is lower and less annoying to those within ear shot. I personally love the sound of the blue cherries and for me, the clicks are one of the biggest reasons I find them fun.

This probably only strengthen's webwit's comments about blue cherries being toys for simpleton Americans... or maybe he was referring specifically to the Das, I can't remember. :)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:36:24: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;124094
Thank you. I decided to get the black one instead of the white one since it's out of stock.

Great keyboard I hope you find as much enjoyment as I have had typing on the Topre switches. And like someone else said give yourself a little time to settle in with it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:39:18: With the number and types of responses in this thread, you would have thought Patrick just had a baby. I love GeekHack.

Congrats, Patrick! Enjoy the new 'board.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 09 October 2009, 14:41:27: Quote from: rdjack21;124166
Great keyboard I hope you find as much enjoyment as I have had typing on the Topre switches. And like someone else said give yourself a little time to settle in with it.

I think I'll enjoy it. The only way to know what a Topre is like was to try one for myself. I know it's a lot of money, but I would have been miserable to always think what it would be like.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 09 October 2009, 15:23:45: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;124170
I think I'll enjoy it. The only way to know what a Topre is like was to try one for myself. I know it's a lot of money, but I would have been miserable to always think what it would be like.

You're first impression will probably be, WTF??? I just shelled out $200+ for this keyboard that feels very similar to a $5 rubber dome...because it essentially is a rubber dome.

But after you type on it for a while, you will probably understand why most of those who have tried Topre key switches swear by them. I use my HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 87U when I need to type in stealth for extended periods.

Depending on your typing style, you may not find the Topre completely silent. I am very heavy handed and cannot prevent bottoming out each key stroke, but the soft landing of the Topre key switches makes bottoming out pleasant. The loudest sound is made by the thunk of the space bar.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 09 October 2009, 15:33:17: Quote from: maxlugar;124178
You're first impression will probably be, WTF??? I just shelled out $200+ for this keyboard that feels very similar to a $5 rubber dome...because it essentially is a rubber dome.

But after you type on it for a while, you will probably understand why most of those who have tried Topre key switches swear by them. I use my HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 87U when I need to type in stealth for extended periods.

Depending on your typing style, you may not find the Topre completely silent. I am very heavy handed and cannot prevent bottoming out each key stroke, but the soft landing of the Topre key switches makes bottoming out pleasant. The loudest sound is made by the thunk of the space bar.

this sums it up, and i am the same way, bottom out every time on the hhkb (but not on filco browns......)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 10 October 2009, 11:27:01: Quote from: maxlugar;124178
You're first impression will probably be, WTF??? I just shelled out $200+ for this keyboard that feels very similar to a $5 rubber dome...because it essentially is a rubber dome.

But after you type on it for a while, you will probably understand why most of those who have tried Topre key switches swear by them. I use my HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 87U when I need to type in stealth for extended periods.

Depending on your typing style, you may not find the Topre completely silent. I am very heavy handed and cannot prevent bottoming out each key stroke, but the soft landing of the Topre key switches makes bottoming out pleasant. The loudest sound is made by the thunk of the space bar.

I don't think I will disappointed, but only time will tell. I have not yet received it LOL. That being said, disappointed or not, I would have gotten one at one point or another because if I did not get one, I would wonder for the test of my life what typing on a Topre is like. It would have been a different story if Topre was sold in big stores and could be tried there. But that's not the case as you all know it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: roadblock2thesun on Sat, 10 October 2009, 12:49:26: You people are making it really hard for me to not buy a topre board...
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 10 October 2009, 12:58:10: Quote from: roadblock2thesun;124324
You people are making it really hard for me to not buy a topre board...

I was once in your situation, and reading about the Topre keyboards here made it really hard for me not to get one. In the end, I had to try one for myself to relieve my curiosity although my wallet was not too happy.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 10 October 2009, 16:23:04: dont decide too early
i didnt really really like my hhkb and favor it over the filco switches until after a few days
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 10 October 2009, 20:32:07: Quote from: AndrewZorn;124364
dont decide too early
i didnt really really like my hhkb and favor it over the filco switches until after a few days

I won't decide too early. At the beginning, I did not like my G80 a lot. I like the switch tactile and auditive feedback, but did not like that the keys felt slippery nor that the F and J were scooped nor that they keys surface areas seemed (I think they are compared to the Filco) smaller than most of my keyboards. However, the more I used it, the more I liked it to the point where it became my favourite keyboard in my collection. It still is although (I said that multiple times) I like my other keyboards too.

Also, I think because we geekhackers know more about keyboards and what to look and feel in a particular keyboards, the chances of us being over disappointed is lowered. Someone who don't know anything about keyboards and have been pounding on a rubber dome for 10 years will probably don't feel any difference in a Topre (I still have to test mine). The same applies to brown Cherries. The tactile feedback is very subtle for some. If all one does is pound on the keys, one will never notice the tactile point. Even if sometimes we bottom out completely, we still feel the tactile feedback and this gives a good feeling :-)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 11 October 2009, 03:42:54: yet to find tactility in my topres though
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 11 October 2009, 12:05:21: Quote from: AndrewZorn;124445
yet to find tactility in my topres though

Can't help you there, have not tried one yet :-)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:31:54: It's finally here. After I pressed the first key, it was like, "Did I pay so much for this keyboard?" It feels just like a rubber dome. But, it's not like a regular rubber dome. The sound is very soothing, and cannot be compared to a regular rubber dome. It's a different sound, very soothing. The keys fire about half-way down, unlike the rubber dome keyboards keys which have to be pressed completely to get them to fire. Built quality is outstanding. It's very heavy. The only "complain" so far is the amount of force required for the space bar. All the keys are like pushing a knife into butter, but the spacebar requires more force. That's it for now. I have to use it more before I can form a good opinion. So far, I really like the soothing sound produced by the keys.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:38:05: tell me how the halfway-down thing works for you. i can do it on my brown cherry, but i am [perhaps subjectively] slower on my topre because of the fact that i am bottoming each stroke.

but type on it more, i still think overall it is better than cherry brown, even though it lacks the signature feel.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 15 October 2009, 18:33:03: Quote from: AndrewZorn;125793
tell me how the halfway-down thing works for you. i can do it on my brown cherry, but i am [perhaps subjectively] slower on my topre because of the fact that i am bottoming each stroke.

but type on it more, i still think overall it is better than cherry brown, even though it lacks the signature feel.

Oh, I'm bottoming out too, but if I press a key half-way to see if it fires, it does. Overall, it's not identical to a rubber dome, it provides a kind of unique experience. I now understand why people who wanted to know more about the Topre or HKKB could not really get a good feel of what they are like. The feel is very hard to put into words. The keys require less force than a rubber dome keys. The keys don't feel as crisp as a scissor-switch but not as mushy as regular rubber dome. I guess you can feel that I'm having a hard time describing it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 15 October 2009, 18:34:08: Quote from: ripster;125796
You can remove the springs from the spacebar if the force bugs you.

I don't think it will bother me after a few hours. I just want to try it as is for a while to get a good feel. So far I like it, but the honey moon is not over yet.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 15 October 2009, 18:49:24: well, i feel like the more i use it, the more i appreciate the smooth, soft, yet tight (wait, what is this?) feel to them. i know the caps on a filco contribute a lot to its rattly feel, but my hhkb is far ahead of it in terms of a consistent, polished feel.

i have actually pretty much given up the idea of getting a keyboard with cherry blacks since i have the topre. i dont see why it isnt a popular 'gaming' switch (oh wait, unless it's on the BLACK REALFORCE!!!)... feels perfect for repeated mashes, without being too hard to press. plus, all that WASD wont wear off the keycaps in a month.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 15 October 2009, 18:53:10: Quote from: AndrewZorn;125829
well, i feel like the more i use it, the more i appreciate the smooth, soft, yet tight (wait, what is this?) feel to them. i know the caps on a filco contribute a lot to its rattly feel, but my hhkb is far ahead of it in terms of a consistent, polished feel.

i have actually pretty much given up the idea of getting a keyboard with cherry blacks since i have the topre. i dont see why it isnt a popular 'gaming' switch (oh wait, unless it's on the BLACK REALFORCE!!!)... feels perfect for repeated mashes, without being too hard to press. plus, all that WASD wont wear off the keycaps in a month.

I won't be buying a keyboard for years now. I know I've said tha before, but I think I have collected all the switches I wanted to try. The reason why I ended collecting some many was because over time, I began to like lighter keys more and more. Only time will tell if the Topre will takes number one spot in my heart which is currently held by the blue Cherries.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 15 October 2009, 18:54:34: going from noisy clickiness to smooth rubber domes would surely be more of a preference thing than a quality/engineering thing.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 15 October 2009, 21:13:40: Quote from: AndrewZorn;125832
going from noisy clickiness to smooth rubber domes would surely be more of a preference thing than a quality/engineering thing.

There's some truth in this for sure although the Topre is mostly a rubber dome, admittedly a very good one.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 15 October 2009, 21:15:02: Quote from: ripster;125836
I still think it'll get plenty of use no matter if it's #1 or #2. Your kids and wife I'm sure appreciate how quiet it is.

And you probably like that soft landing don't you?

You are right. They are liking the quietness of the Topre, especially my wife. The soft landing is nothing like I pictured it. It's soft for sure, but closer to the brown cherries than to a typical rubber dome.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 15 October 2009, 21:36:28: Quote from: AndrewZorn;125829
i dont see why it isnt a popular 'gaming' switch

I'm not sure I'd want to do frequent gaming on such an expensive board. Having said that, if you find yourself needing NKRO, that might force your decision. (E.g. My only other NKRO board has Blue Cherries.)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: o2dazone on Thu, 15 October 2009, 23:33:53: the subtle differences to a generic dome switch and a topre switch becomes more apparent with more use - glad you were able to spot the differences right away
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 16 October 2009, 04:46:21: Quote from: o2dazone;125917
the subtle differences to a generic dome switch and a topre switch becomes more apparent with more use - glad you were able to spot the differences right away

When $300 is involved, your fingers will start to notice subtle differences in anything =P
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: alpslover on Fri, 16 October 2009, 07:40:19: Quote from: Rajagra;125878
I'm not sure I'd want to do frequent gaming on such an expensive board.

i see keyboards as tools - if i spend that much on a tool, why wouldn't i try to use it as much as possible?

that said, i personally find the realforce to be better suited for typing than gaming. the lighter weight keys become even more annoying when gaming.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 16 October 2009, 08:04:20: Quote from: ch_123;125937
When $300 is involved, your fingers will start to notice subtle differences in anything =P

I was thinking about that too. I mean it's usually easier to justify and like a product that cost us a lot. And here's where my few psychology classes kind of influence my reasoning. We don't really see reality, but shape an understanding of reality. In doing this, we are usually biased in our judgment. So, is it possible that we unconsciously like the Topre board because we don't want to admit to ourselves and others that we were dumb to buy a keyboard that expensive and which is not greater than the others?

I think the answer is maybe and maybe not. Who can really tell what is going into heads with precision. And to be fair, the Topre does produce a feel and sound that are different from the typical rubber dome. That being said, I need to spend more time with it. I find the keys on the brown Cherries to be lighter and after constant typing yesterday night, my fingers were getting a bit tired.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 16 October 2009, 09:18:10: right,
i dont understand why the topre switch is described as a quiet typist's switch, but the realforce 87 is TEH BEST GAMING BORED EVER MADE (but rememeber, the HHKB is just for linux guys who sit in the terminal all day)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 16 October 2009, 11:54:13: Quote from: alpslover;125945
i see keyboards as tools - if i spend that much on a tool, why wouldn't i try to use it as much as possible?

It may not be the right tool for the job, even if it is the best tool.
To coin a phrase used elsewhere: Topres are boutique items. You could abuse them while gaming if you wanted, but I'd stick to something more rugged or disposable. (Rather academic in my case, as I have a Nostromo N52te for that kind of thing - truly the best tool for that job in every sense.)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:01:50: I wish I still gamed to some extent. I always thought the Nostromo was one of the best purpose-built peripherals. Why use WASD when you can map that to your thumb and have your fingers free for other tasks. The N52 version was nice, too, because it has the completely rubber bottom that kept the thing from moving at all. I had the original one, too, but the rubber feet on it sucked.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: alpslover on Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:11:58: Quote from: Rajagra;126028
It may not be the right tool for the job, even if it is the best tool.

fair enough.

Quote
To coin a phrase used elsewhere: Topres are boutique items. You could abuse them while gaming if you wanted, but I'd stick to something more rugged or disposable.

well, people rave about the build quality of topres, and the switches are claimed to be more reliable, so i don't see any reason to hold back on using them, assuming one does not have a 'more right tool' at hand. yes, you've paid a lot more, but what you've paid for is supposedly the higher quality, so to me it seems a waste to pay more for something you're not taking advantage of. but that's just me.

some people (most, i bet) buy ferraris to putt around in for an hour or two on the occasional sunny weekend. others buy them and mercilessly thrash them on racetracks. neither are inherently right or wrong, they are just being used in different ways because their owners have different perspectives.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:29:12: IMO, they are built to be abused, which is why I thought Topre made them, anyway, to be abused. That said, other than the occasional cleaning, I use the Hell out of my 'boards.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:33:50: i agree, as long as you arent being like the angry german kid and BASHING on your keyboard, how are POM keycaps and 30mil stroke lifetime not a GOOD thing?

i still say: why is the realforce 87 defended as a pro gaming board, but the other topres too delicate?
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:54:37: The Topre switches can be used for gaming. They are so good at it one company had Topre make a OEM version for them the CSNEO (Counter Strike NEO) which has a different case and keys but other wise is a 89UB. Not being a gamer myself though I can't really verify it.

(http://www.4gamer.net/specials/cs_interview/img/004.jpg)

and in use:
(http://www.4gamer.net/specials/cs_interview/img/002.jpg)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:57:19: Y'know, I have never really been a lavender kinda guy. Pink works for me in certain applications, but lavender never really did anything for me.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 16 October 2009, 18:46:56: Quote from: ch_123;125937
When $300 is involved, your fingers will start to notice subtle differences in anything =P

For the last month I've spent 8 hours on a mushy 5 year old Lenovo rubber dome. The differences are dramatic for me, but upon receiving my first HHKB, all my friends noticed subtle differences.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 16 October 2009, 19:13:30: Aye, I was just taking the piss. I do intend on getting a HHKB someday or another, but not any time soon. If I came across that kind of money, I have a pile of more pertinent, non-keyboard related items to procure.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 16 October 2009, 19:26:08: I feel you. I'm the same way. If this weren't the only hobby I was into, I probably would have been happy with a few MX11800's and a G80.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 16 October 2009, 19:55:02: After two days:

Why would someone be disappointed?
If you don't know anything about keyboards and especially what is supposed to be special about a Topre, you probably won't notice anything special. I mean if I was not into keyboard, I probably would not understand why it would be so expensive even if I got a chance to try it first. If some people have a hard time knowing why a mechanical keyboard like a Cherry is different from a rubber dome, then...

How does it compare to a rubber dome?
Again, it all depends how much difference one can notice between any two keyboards. The Topre has rubber domes in it after all. That being said, the different actuation force for different keys is nice. The landing is soft, but not identical to a regular rubber dome. And unlike a rubber dome, the keys fire half-way. After some training, I guess one can be proficient at not bottoming out. The dome fart is quite a nice sound at times :-) But, I think the biggest difference between a rubber dome and a Topre is the soothing sound produced by the Topre keys. I have never heard this sould from the many rubber domes I've tried in the past. It's a crisp and very soothing sound.

How does it compare to the brown Cherries?
If I were to compare it to any mechanical keyboard, I would say it's closest to the brown Cherries. But, I find the brown Cherries (Filco) to require less force to press and have a more noticeable tactile point. That may be just me, but that's what I getting right now. My Topre is quieter than my Filco.

All in all, I need to spend more time on the Topre before I can say more. If I type a long time on the Topre I can get tired. But that could be becaue I'm not used to it, and am probably tensing my muscle.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 16 October 2009, 20:53:55: Quote from: o2dazone;125917
the subtle differences to a generic dome switch and a topre switch becomes more apparent with more use - glad you were able to spot the differences right away

I would think that the huge amount reading about the keyboard, and listening to the sound online and also having tried many keyboards help me in this case.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 16 October 2009, 22:18:02: Maybe it's because I have had it only for a very short period of time, but I'm finding the Topre quiet addictive, especially the sound. I'm happy man. Since the Topre is a quiet keyboard, I got to take my Filco to work and enjoy the friction music.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 16 October 2009, 22:59:10: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;126257

How does it compare to the brown Cherries?
If I were to compare it to any mechanical keyboard, I would say it's closest to the brown Cherries. But, I find the brown Cherries (Filco) to require less force to press and have a more noticeable tactile point. That may be just me, but that's what I getting right now. My Topre is quieter than my Filco.

Yes I agree with you on this one. Of all the switches I've tried the Topre is closest to Brown Cherry switches. As far as the key force goes the Cherry Browns are actually a little heaver but I tend to agree that they feel lighter. I think what causes this is the way the force graph (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre/Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre#Topre_switch_force_graphs) is shaped on the Topre verses a Brown cherry. I think the smoothing out of the force makes it feel heaver than it is. But that smoothness is what makes it feel so good as well.

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;126257

All in all, I need to spend more time on the Topre before I can say more. If I type a long time on the Topre I can get tired. But that could be becaue I'm not used to it, and am probably tensing my muscle.

Yea I think you need to relax a little and just let it flow and quit worrying about breaking your new expensive keyboard. When I finally relaxed with my first Topre and just let it flow I really started to appreciate it more and that is when I naturally just started to not bottom out the keys.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 17 October 2009, 12:28:27: Quote from: rdjack21;126280

Yea I think you need to relax a little and just let it flow and quit worrying about breaking your new expensive keyboard. When I finally relaxed with my first Topre and just let it flow I really started to appreciate it more and that is when I naturally just started to not bottom out the keys.

I guess I need some time to view it just as another keyboard (sort of since it's not just another keyboard). When one spends so much on a keyboard and had quite some expectation, one tends to approach it with a different frame of mind.

On a different note, I asked my wife to try it yesterday. I wanted to know what would be her reactions since she knew how much I paid for it. Her first reaction was, "It's different. I like it." But I'm safe. I know she's not into keyboard enough for me to worry about her stealing the Topre :-) But I repeat, it's addictive. The more I use it, the more I like the sound made by the keys. It's a very unique thoc, thoc, thoc unlike anything I have heard before on other keyboards.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 17 October 2009, 21:18:12: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;126392

On a different note, I asked my wife to try it yesterday. I wanted to know what would be her reactions since she knew how much I paid for it. Her first reaction was, "It's different. I like it." But I'm safe. I know she's not into keyboard enough for me to worry about her stealing the Topre :-) But I repeat, it's addictive. The more I use it, the more I like the sound made by the keys. It's a very unique thoc, thoc, thoc unlike anything I have heard before on other keyboards.

LOL, My wife told me I have to get her one. For now she is using one of my boards but eventually I'm going to have to get her a HHKB Pro or a 87U and of course she wants a white one which you can only get out of Korea right now which means it is around $400 to get one to my door. I think I may end up getting her a White HHKB Pro which will be easer to carry with her laptop if she wants to and I can get it cheaper.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: msiegel on Sat, 17 October 2009, 21:57:33: Quote from: rdjack21;126505
LOL, My wife told me I have to get her one. For now she is using one of my boards but eventually I'm going to have to get her a HHKB Pro or a 87U and of course she wants a white one which you can only get out of Korea right now which means it is around $400 to get one to my door. I think I may end up getting her a White HHKB Pro which will be easer to carry with her laptop if she wants to and I can get it cheaper.

:lol: there is a danger in promoting these expensive boards to friends and family
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 18 October 2009, 09:52:16: Quote from: msiegel;126514
:lol: there is a danger in promoting these expensive boards to friends and family

My situation is different. She does not care much about keyboard. She won't ask for one. My relatives and friends can buy their own. If my daughter was old enough to use a keyboard, then it would have been a different story ;-)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 18 October 2009, 10:53:09: Quote from: ripster;126590
Luckily my wife's favorite is the combo of a Buckling Spring and the CH Trackball. I have lots of those so she's set for life.

Patrick - glad you are enjoying the keyboard. It is one of those that you first get an go "huh - what's the hype about" but you appreciate over time.

I also like the subtle key weighting on the pinkies. Experimenting with Cherry Whites I'm finding my pinkies being kinda weak these days.

I've been forewarned, so I think this help not to discount it right from the beginning. The key weighting is nice. It's subtle like you said, but nice nevertheless.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 19 October 2009, 02:45:26: Quote from: ripster;126590
Luckily my wife's favorite is the combo of a Buckling Spring and the CH Trackball. I have lots of those so she's set for life.

Where do you find those CH trackballs? Are they still being made?
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 19 October 2009, 09:39:12: Quote from: ironcoder;126811
Where do you find those CH trackballs? Are they still being made?

You must have missed this (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7386). I think they are sold out now.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 19 October 2009, 11:02:34: Thanks, I actually can't afford to buy any more goodies this month. It was a very good month, though. More curiosity than anything since everybody seemed to say the trackman ruled when I asked about a middle-o-the-road mouse. Just wanted to know what I missed.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 23 October 2009, 15:16:58: Someone (I think it was Bigpook) complained that those things were uncomfortable to use, or maybe it was the one with the scroll wheel thingy. Either way, the Trackman is a reliable investment, if not as interesting.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:02:05: Yeah, that's the one. I was disappointed in this assessment because the CST seemed like a very interesting device, a potential Expert Mouse killer. That said, it took me a while to get used to using the Expert Mouse in a comfortable manner, and bigpook claimed that he found his Expert Mouse more comfortable to use than the CST, so I have reservations about taking that sort of risk.

Though maybe, like the Expert Mouse, it depends on how ergonomic of a position you use it in. I found that in order to adjust to the Expert Mouse, I ended up making some changes that improved the ergonomics of my setup in general (lowering the height of my chair, etc)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:46:14: No, its not an expert moues killer : ) And my elbows aren't weird : ) The pain is almost gone though. Its been months. Trust me, I wanted to like the CST; the on-the-fly dpi adjustment, incredibly smooth scroll wheel and industrial quality build put it in the win column. But it killed my elbow.
YMMV of course, ripster pimped his out nicely with the extra buttons on the side which adds to its usability. Wish I had that scroll wheel on my kensington. It really is smooth.

Having said that I am still using the kensington expert. 4 programmable buttons and comfortable hand position make it work for me. I have a NIB in the closet waiting just in case this one breaks, or worse yet, kensington discontinues the model.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:49:47: One advantage the Kensington has is that nice attachable wrist rest. The curvature on the CST doesn't look like it would be the most comfortable thing for me to rest my wrist against.

Again, it's still something I would be willing to try out. I like th Kensington a lot now that I adjusted to it. I would certainly be willing to try something that some consider to be better.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:55:59: Some here have complained about the wrist rest but it works just fine for me. Granted, it could be better made. The two little plastic tits that connect it to the bottom of the mouse will break if you are not careful. But its nothing a little velcro won't fix.

The curvature of the CST was too steep for me. I tried to compensate for it but it just didn't work out. I have a link here somewhere on what I did to try to fix that. Its pretty funny. To me anyways.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:02:14: Odd, one of the things I dislike about the Expert Mouse when I first got it was how steep it was. I can appreciate that it needs to be big to house the ball, but I think I would have preferred a more boxy design with a less angled surface.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:08:37: Thats why you need the wrist rest. Oddly, thats not the case with the older kensington expert; the one with no scroll wheel and its opto-mechanical. The ball is larger yet it sits lower.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:13:33: Here is a pic for reference:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5352&stc=1&d=1256339574)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:15:36: Heres one with a billiard ball

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5353&stc=1&d=1256339701)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 23 October 2009, 20:55:44: It's been a week with my Topre keyboard and I like the more I use it. To give you an idea of how I'm liking it, two days ago I pulled my Cherry keyboard again. As soon as I started to type on it, I said to myself, "Yeah Baby!" I still like the blue Cherries the most. Yet, I found myself going back to the Topre. I think what I like in the Topre is the sound and also the "silence." I just cannot bring myself to type on my blue Cherries at night when my wife and daughter are sleeping anymore, even though I'm slower and less accurate on the Topre than on the Cherry.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 19 November 2009, 00:04:01: It's been a month now. Some of you might be interested in this update, but some of those considering one may find it helpful. Like many have said before, you need to use it for a while before forming an opinion. Right out the box, I did notice a big difference between the Realforce and a regular rubberdome keyboard, but something in my head kept wondering if I was not merely justifying the amount of money I spent to make me feel better. But after a month with it, I can say that I don't regret it. It would not have been the end of the world if I did not get it, but I'm happy I got it. It has rubber dome in it for sure, but the landing is completely different. Most rubber dome keyboards feel mushy at the end of the travel and this is what I don't like, this is what get onto my nerve. The Topre on the other hand, feels different. The landing is not very hard as other keyboards, but it's crisp if I can say it like that. Only recently have I started to bottom out less. It was kind of hard for me to learn not to bottom out. But true to my words, I did not force it and just let it come. Once I started to know it better, I started to make less typos and approach speed closer to the ones I was at on my G80. Now, on one speed test site I regularly types over 90 WPM and sometimes get over. I think it will feel even better once I have my keyboard tray.

That being said, this is just my opinion, someone else's mileage may vary. One interesting thing I noticed though, the more I get a different switch, the more I appreciate what I already had. I guess it's like food, one may have a favourite dish, yet appreciate another one when one has it on one's plate.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: wordfool on Thu, 19 November 2009, 01:05:55: as someone about to sink an ungodly amount of money into a Realforce 104 it's good to hear such feedback. In my case it was between the brown cherries and the Topre (as a silent alternative to my M13) and I think silence has won over mechanics in my case
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 19 November 2009, 01:16:30: Yea it took me about a month to quit bottoming out my Topre when I first got it. But one thing I have noticed is that if I use a heaver switch for a couple of days then switch to the Topre it takes me a few days to reacquire that light touch. But then again on the heavy switch board I have to remember to bang on it or I end up with missing letters as I'm typing.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ironcoder on Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:09:26: I'm still bottoming out on my Filcos and I'm pretty sure I always will. That's the only way I'll ever be able to use a Model M again. It's like two different worlds.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:12:28: I don't know if bottoming out is so bad. As long as you are not jarring your fingers. I bottom out on everything that I type on.
I have tried to not bottom out, but haven't had much luck.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:15:31: Quote from: ironcoder;134145
I'm still bottoming out on my Filcos and I'm pretty sure I always will. That's the only way I'll ever be able to use a Model M again. It's like two different worlds.

Oh yea if you are using a light and an heavy board on a regular basis you will never really develop the lighter touch needed to not bottom out the keys.

After I finally developed the lighter touch I got those short throw Topre boards with 55g keys. Used them for about a month then plugged in my HHKB Pro and I bottomed all the keys out. Been back on the lighter board now for a few weeks and my lighter touch is slowly coming back. So if you had a BS at home and a cherry at work I don't think your fingers will adjust completely to the lighter Cherry switch.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:35:21: I have two 'boards of each type so I have one at home and one at the office. That way, everything stays consistent, and I don't have to readjust all the time.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:51:56: I don't really care myself. When I am in a ****ty mood, or there is an emergency, I'll pound the keys a bit. For me, it's just something that happened as I got used to typing on the Cherry browns. I certainly don't type faster or better because of it. Hell, I don't type well or fast no matter what my style is.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:59:42: Quote from: ripster;134192
You guys may disagree but nobody has shown me the ill effects of bottoming out a mechanical. With a rubber dome you can get sore fingers from jamming the suckers but with a mechanical you may get some more noise but who cares?

I mean, has anyone PROVEN that people that don't bottom out type either faster or more accurately. Sometimes you guys talk like it's the goal to not bottom out when I thought the goal was to type?

why is bottoming out a mechanical any better than bottoming out a membrane? i thought the ill effect was having something suddenly stop your finger. and slower typing.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 19 November 2009, 16:02:44: Quote from: ripster;134192
I mean, has anyone PROVEN that people that don't bottom out type either faster or more accurately. Sometimes you guys talk like it's the goal to not bottom out when I thought the goal was to type?

The basic laws of things suggest that the less time you spend pressing a button translates into more time spent pressing the next button. It also makes for a more pleasant typing experience, or so I find.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 19 November 2009, 16:18:42: If you don't like the way it feels to bottom out on a mechanical keyboard, then just don't do it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: alpslover on Thu, 19 November 2009, 16:58:39: Quote from: ch_123;134205
The basic laws of things suggest that the less time you spend pressing a button translates into more time spent pressing the next button.

only if the typist's brain is fast enough. i'd bet what limits most people's speed is how quickly they can process the location of the next key to hit and 'instructing' the correct finger to hit it, rather than the actual travel time of the switches.

i agree with those who say 'just type and quit worrying about it'.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: alpslover on Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:03:17: and let's face it, if any of us really cared about the health of our hands, we wouldn't be using keyboards at all, we'd be using voice dictation software which has the added benefit of being far faster than any of us could ever hope to type.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: wordfool on Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:14:02: Indeed... I just bought the latest version of Dragon and it's fast enough on a new computer to actually be useable -- it can keep up with me talking at a normal pace and now every time I use a keyboard I feel so... well... prehistoric
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: xsphat on Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:25:17: I have to bottom out when I write or the characters are too light.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: wordfool on Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:40:29: Quote from: xsphat;134257
I have to bottom out when I write or the characters are too light.

but don't you find that if you bottom out too hard they get a bit smudged?
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:09:18: Quote from: microsoft windows;134226
If you don't like the way it feels to bottom out on a mechanical keyboard, then just don't do it.

oh, OF COURSE! what a revelation
Quote from: wordfool;134254
Indeed... I just bought the latest version of Dragon and it's fast enough on a new computer to actually be useable -- it can keep up with me talking at a normal pace and now every time I use a keyboard I feel so... well... prehistoric

these actually work? is it what you use to post here? i guess ive always been hesitant because of the stuff that is past actually turning sounds into words then text, like punctuation, homonyms, etc.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: wordfool on Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:20:42: even the allegedly "improved" speech recognition in Win7 is pretty bad. Mind you, I'd expect my computer to say "meh" if I tried to talk to it, too.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: wordfool on Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:27:52: Quote from: AndrewZorn;134278
these actually work? is it what you use to post here? i guess ive always been hesitant because of the stuff that is past actually turning sounds into words then text, like punctuation, homonyms, etc.

I was shocked. Granted, last time I tried the Dragon software was many versions ago when it was pretty hit and miss, but now it's pretty decent. After the 30 minutes of training it was about 95% accurate for me (when I eventually found a decent microphone, that is).

You do have to make sure you enunciate well, and you have to "speak" the punctuation and corrections (like "period", "new paragraph" and "delete last"), but other than that I could see myself using it to write longer texts regularly because it's way faster than typing. The short stuff is still easier to do with a keyboard, however, and Dragon's funtionality (or lack) with web browsers leaves a lot to be desired, so it's not about to become my only method of input.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:33:52: just seems really confusing, even trying to tell another human to type something like i want it is pretty annoying.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 19 November 2009, 20:40:46: Quote from: wordfool;133984
as someone about to sink an ungodly amount of money into a Realforce 104 it's good to hear such feedback. In my case it was between the brown cherries and the Topre (as a silent alternative to my M13) and I think silence has won over mechanics in my case

You won't regret your choice as long as you give the keyboard a real chance. Give yourself some time before you form a definite opinion. I really like mine.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 19 November 2009, 20:41:34: Quote from: rdjack21;133988
Yea it took me about a month to quit bottoming out my Topre when I first got it. But one thing I have noticed is that if I use a heaver switch for a couple of days then switch to the Topre it takes me a few days to reacquire that light touch. But then again on the heavy switch board I have to remember to bang on it or I end up with missing letters as I'm typing.

Yes, the Topre is different. I think it's because the resistance is closer to the start of the travel.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 19 November 2009, 20:47:39: Not bottoming out is not the goal, but mostly a bonus. One of the impressions I have is that with a mechanical keyboard, one of the main benefits is to be able to know when a key fired and to move on to the next key. The experience may be different for each one of us, but I do feel that I type faster if I don't bottom out, but with one condition: when the not bottoming out is unconscious. If I force myself to not bottom out, forget it. I guess the pleasant factor plays a big role too. The gliding feeling is quite nice. Sometimes I think of it like being a keyboard ninja.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 19 November 2009, 22:11:00: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;134362
Not bottoming out is not the goal, but mostly a bonus. One of the impressions I have is that with a mechanical keyboard, one of the main benefits is to be able to know when a key fired and to move on to the next key. The experience may be different for each one of us, but I do feel that I type faster if I don't bottom out, but with one condition: when the not bottoming out is unconscious. If I force myself to not bottom out, forget it. I guess the pleasant factor plays a big role too. The gliding feeling is quite nice. Sometimes I think of it like being a keyboard ninja.

Yes I agree not bottoming out is something you can't force you have to let it just happen. On the Topre when you get that grove (I'm in and out of it all the time) of not bottoming out the keys and really flying it is keyboard nirvana. But the minute you go oh wow this is really nice and you start to think about it BAM out of the grove you go and that "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" is gone until the next time you don't think about it and it just happens.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 19 November 2009, 22:15:20: Quote from: rdjack21;134373
Yes I agree not bottoming out is something you can't force you have to let it just happen. On the Topre when you get that grove (I'm in and out of it all the time) of not bottoming out the keys and really flying it is keyboard nirvana. But the minute you go oh wow this is really nice and you start to think about it BAM out of the grove you go and that "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" is gone until the next time you don't think about it and it just happens.

Wow! You were spot on. That "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" is a good feeling indeed :-) This reminds me of some cartoon characters who unleashed a particular attacking power by accident. Then they try and try but just can repeat it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 19 November 2009, 22:20:23: the "groove until you think about it" part happens to me all the time with cherry brown...
still trying to get it to happen with topre...
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 19 November 2009, 23:02:09: Quote from: AndrewZorn;134377
the "groove until you think about it" part happens to me all the time with cherry brown...
still trying to get it to happen with topre...

I think it's hard to get it because of the difference in the keyboard. The initial force to press the key is higher on the Topre than on the brown Cherries. Therefore, the tactile point is almost right at the beginning of the key travel. On the brown Cherries, however, the resistance is higher when you get close to the tactile point, which is half-way the key travel and it is more pronounced and therefore noticed more easily. Just my thoughts. You're right thought, it's easier to get the "groove until you think about it" on the brown Cherries.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 19 November 2009, 23:09:31: I never did get to the point where I could get the groove on the Browns. But then again I really only used my brown board for a few weeks and then my Topre showed up. The Filco with browns has pretty much been sitting in its box ever since. But I have used the Compaq and I no longer bottom that one out now. Now days if I want something a little different I break out the Space saver maybe I should put the filco in the rotation for a bit to see if I can get that grove on it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 19 November 2009, 23:13:01: Quote from: AndrewZorn;134377
the "groove until you think about it" part happens to me all the time with cherry brown...
still trying to get it to happen with topre...

The trying part maybe what is messing you up. Just quit trying and don't think about it just type. The first time for me on the Topre was during a long day of coding and I was really in the coding grove at the time so was not really thinking about typing. But as I was flying over the code it dawned on me how good the keyboard was feeling then BAM it was gone.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 08:44:48: Quote from: ripster;134268
That's the spirit. Ron "Typewriter" Mingo doesn't seem to worry about it either!Go to 2:40 and learn the SECRET TO FAST TYPING! (the ending is funny too)

That guy IS my hero!

That's funny, when I listen to music when I type, I get into a groove and make a lot less mistakes and type much faster. I have always had this problem where I start to think about what I am going to type, and then I can't seem to find the keys. The other thing I noticed, too is that Ron Mingo doesn't seem to type "properly." It looks like he uses some kind of hybrid, multi-finger hunt and peck method. I could be completely wrong about that, though.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 20 November 2009, 10:06:48: Quote from: AndrewZorn;134377
the "groove until you think about it" part happens to me all the time with cherry brown...
still trying to get it to happen with topre...

I personally can't relate to all of these "not bottoming out posts". What is the point of intentionally trying to not bottom out each key stroke?

Because my primary keyboard has been (and is still occasionally) an 84-key IBM PC AT buckling spring/capacitive Model F, I have been conditioned to pressing hard on the keys (especially the space bar!)

I have grown to appreciate my two Topre key switch boards. What I like about the Topre key switch is the soft landing when it bottoms out. I can still type relatively fast (80-90 WPM) on the HHKB Pro2 and 87U while bottoming out the keys. Bottoming out on the Topres also has a nice reassuring sound, but your fingers feel "cushioned."

I have limited experience with Cherrry Browns; all I have is the Filco keypad. To me, the keys feel linear. I barely feel the tactile bump before I bottom out. I enjoy botomming out on the Cherry Brown only because of the sound - it provides me with audible confirmation of the key stroke. However, bottoming out Brown Cherries is not as pleasant as bottoming out Topre switches. Also, I personally find the Topre key switches more tactile (feeling) than the Brown Cherry key switches. (you know, that snap of rubber cup and feeling of oneness with cup rubber)

I probably need to get a Filco Majestouch with Brown Cherries to really give them a fair shot. Blue Cherries, toys, but I Like!
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 20 November 2009, 10:43:00: Quote from: maxlugar;134484
I personally can't relate to all of these "not bottoming out posts". What is the point of intentionally trying to not bottom out each key stroke?

Your comment is not 100% accurate. What we are looking for is not to bottom out, that's correct. But, we are not trying to consciously do it. We just want it to come without out conscious thought. Personally, if I think about it, I will be making a lot of mistakes.

As to why we would like to be able to not bottom out on a regular basis is because it's a different feeling, a different feeling that some of us appreciate a lot.

When I first got my Topre, I was bottoming out quite hard and after a while, it kinds of hurt my finger tips. I type a lot everyday as I summarize all the chapters I read from my textbooks as well as the lectures. And when I'm taking a break every hour, I do a speedtest just to take my mind off the reading material. On top that, there are essays after essays to write. So, you can imagine how much my fingers would hurt if I was bottoming out hard on the Topre.

One module summary (average) = 1500 words
One chapter summary (average) = 2000 words
Min. of 30 @ 1 minute typing test (average 90 WPM or more) = 2700 words.

On a typical night, I type anything between 4000 to 5000 words. This does not include my e-mails nor comments on geekhack.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 12:32:28: I think patrickgeekhack stated it correctly. We are not trying to not bottom out. I actually bottom out the keys most of the time but lightly. But when you get the grove and you are not bottoming out the keys the keyboard has a completely different feel to it. If you think describing a Topre switch is hard describing the not bottoming out grove is even harder. It is like the Topre switch changes mode or something and it just feels so good. It makes you understand that "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" saying printed on every Topre box.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: _js_ on Fri, 20 November 2009, 12:58:23: Quote from: rdjack21;134584
I think patrickgeekhack stated it correctly. We are not trying to not bottom out. I actually bottom out the keys most of the time but lightly. But when you get the grove and you are not bottoming out the keys the keyboard has a completely different feel to it. If you think describing a Topre switch is hard describing the not bottoming out grove is even harder. It is like the Topre switch changes mode or something and it just feels so good. It makes you understand that "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" saying printed on every Topre box.

I too have had this experience. I often bottom out the keys of my Topre. Especially when I am just intermittently typing. But there are times when I'm doing a lot of typing and I just get into the proverbial "groove" and it makes the 103U sing, typing-wise. It's a beautiful thing! And it's hard to describe.

I love my 103U. I read something about "taking the red pill" somewhere, briefly, and I assume that this means that, like in The Matrix, once you do that, you can't go back. I sort of feel this way about the Topre switch. It's turned things upside down for me. I'll definitely cycle my Model M and AEK II back into rotation, and see how I like them after a week or so of use, and I'm going to get a Cherry MX blue board also at some point, but I suspect that, sadly, I have gone down the rabbit hole and am only going to be really satisfied with a Topre keyboard from now on. We shall see.

As for rubber domes and paying a lot of money and psychology, I have to say that:

1. There's rubber, and there's rubber. Many different kinds and qualities of rubber. And the stuff they use on the Topre must be pretty darned good! Or at least it feels that way. I know they spent a lot of time on the design of the rubber dome. And given the high quality of all the other parts, I suspect that the rubber is also very high quality.

2. Two or three hundred dollars isn't really all that much money if you spend hours every day at a keyboard. Some of us spend as much time at a keyboard (or more) as most people spend watching TV. And people think nothing of dropping $200 or $300 on a TV. It all depends on your particular usage patterns. If you only hunt and peck to type in an occasional URL or to compose an email, well, then, yeah, a $300 keyboard might not feel like that smart a buying choice. But if you type hours every day, that is a different story.

3. I don't believe that the notion that spending a lot of money on something necessarily biases you to like it. It can often do the opposite, in fact. And, for many people, they know they can turn around and sell the item without too much of a loss, so this sort of negates the "maybe I like it more just 'cause I paid so much for it." It all depends.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:21:42: Quote from: _js_;134602

2. Two or three hundred dollars isn't really all that much money if you spend hours every day at a keyboard. Some of us spend as much time at a keyboard (or more) as most people spend watching TV. And people think nothing of dropping $200 or $300 on a TV. It all depends on your particular usage patterns. If you only hunt and peck to type in an occasional URL or to compose an email, well, then, yeah, a $300 keyboard might not feel like that smart a buying choice. But if you type hours every day, that is a different story.

Part of me feels that way. I type a lot in a day. For sure, if I was a hunt and peck user, I would not be on this forum today.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: _js_ on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:28:50: Quote from: ripster;134616
Good points. Also, I don't get emotionally attached to a $200 graphics card. Never even see the damn thing anymore.

LOL!

Well you might not see the card, but you definitely see the results of the card, working its little ole' heart out for you! A thankless task, apparently. hehe.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:34:22: yeah i most definitely remember (favorably, there are others that don't stay with me) my 9800pro and 7900gt and lately 8800gt
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:40:59: I'm going to pull a microsoft windows and say that my home PC is still grinding on a 6800gt.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: skriefal on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:57:07: I suspect that there are a lot of 6800gt cards still in service. Now TNT2 Ultra, however... :)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:03:08: I had one of those, too. That was a great card at the time. I really liked my 3dfx, too.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:34:18: Quote from: itlnstln;134623
I'm going to pull a microsoft windows and say that my home PC is still grinding on a 6800gt.

I had one of them up until January. They were great cards. The problem with great cards is that they don't stay great cards. After about 2-3 years you end up with a big, energy guzzling and heat dispersing brick that is inferior to even a $50 contemporary. Graphics cards seem to epitomize the consumerist spirit in the computing world, which is why I don't find them nearly as cool as I used to do when I was younger.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:37:52: That is pretty much the case. My PC tends to heat up the office. I try to use my laptop for most of my basic computing, but I store my music and stuff on the main rig. I want to all but retire that one, and move to an ION platform as that's all I need at home. That, and I want to move all the files I share (music, etc.) to a NAS.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:47:27: Received a 103u White in the mail today. I absolutely love it. I like everything about it from the key weighting to key texture. The satisfying "thock thock" and the landing. Typing on this is like butter. It's very solid, heavy, good construction.

If the esc key on this is 55g like I think it is, I'm not sure i'd like a board that is all 55g keys. It would be fun, but I think it would be a little stiff. For me, this seems like the perfect board. I will know better after I've used it for a while, but my first impression is that this is the "ultimate" board I was hoping for.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:48:18: well, alien vs predator 3 is having dedicated servers once again
still multi platform though
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: alpslover on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:51:44: Quote from: didjamatic;134655
If the esc key on this is 55g like I think it is, I'm not sure i'd like a board that is all 55g keys.

num lock should also be 55g. it is on my 101, at least. but i agree, 55g is a bit much. i find 45g to be just about right.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: maxlugar on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:54:39: Quote from: ripster;134659
CONGRATS! Thread back on track.

Show Image
(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/06/mccain_070208_wideweb__470x323,0.jpg)

What? the threads back on track? This is totally unacceptable and contrary to the norms established on geekhack.org
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:55:11: I would be less hesitant to jump on the Topre bandwagon if there were a Realforce that were all 45g. I am not too crazy about the HHKB's layout, so that one is out. Who knows, though. If I try one someday and I like it, I might just grab one. For now, I am happy with my Cherry browns.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:57:03: Quote from: ripster;134659
CONGRATS! Thread back on track.

Hey, wait a second. Didn't you just get a couple of Filcos too. Wow, who's your SugarMama?
Show Image
(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/06/mccain_070208_wideweb__470x323,0.jpg)

Wow. It looks like Mrs. McCain's face was 'Shopped. The sad thing is, it isn't.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: wordfool on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:03:00: It looks like both their heads were 'shopped.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:44:27: Quote from: maxlugar;134662
What? the threads back on track? This is totally unacceptable and contrary to the norms established on geekhack.org

But didn't you get the mail? We are not allowed to send ripster's threads off on a tangent or he will close it. But of course he is allowed to send things off on tangents all he wants on our threads.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:45:58: okay, so it was ripster... i had no idea he was even a mod. until then i didnt even know geekhack HAD mods.

i even made an error and couldn't edit it... wellington gave me an M13, not the fukka.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:47:11: Quote from: itlnstln;134663
I would be less hesitant to jump on the Topre bandwagon if there were a Realforce that were all 45g. I am not too crazy about the HHKB's layout, so that one is out. Who knows, though. If I try one someday and I like it, I might just grab one. For now, I am happy with my Cherry browns.

You can always do ripster's mod to make all the alpha keys 45g. But I have to say having both a uniform 45g board and a weighted board (35/45/55 & 30/45/55) I really can't tell the difference with my pinky fingers. Once you learn not to rest them on the keyboard that is.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:48:19: Quote from: AndrewZorn;134695
okay, so it was ripster... i had no idea he was even a mod. until then i didnt even know geekhack HAD mods.

i even made an error and couldn't edit it... wellington gave me an M13, not the fukka.

You can close your own threads. iMav is the only mod/admin, as he is the one who founded Geekhack.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:49:06: Quote from: AndrewZorn;134695
okay, so it was ripster... i had no idea he was even a mod. until then i didnt even know geekhack HAD mods.

i even made an error and couldn't edit it... wellington gave me an M13, not the fukka.

The tread starter can close the thread. In the particular thread we are talking about ripster started it so he could close it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:54:06: Quote from: didjamatic;134655
Received a 103u White in the mail today. I absolutely love it. I like everything about it from the key weighting to key texture. The satisfying "thock thock" and the landing. Typing on this is like butter. It's very solid, heavy, good construction.

If the esc key on this is 55g like I think it is, I'm not sure i'd like a board that is all 55g keys. It would be fun, but I think it would be a little stiff. For me, this seems like the perfect board. I will know better after I've used it for a while, but my first impression is that this is the "ultimate" board I was hoping for.

I'm glad you like it right out of the box :) For some the Topre has to grow on them. Besides if you like it now you will really like it after a few weeks of adjustment. It took me about a month to adjust to mine but then again I came off a BS board so it took a little while before I developed a lighter touch. I still bottom the keys out but only lightly instead of really banging on them like I did at first.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 15:59:11: Quote from: rdjack21;134694
But didn't you get the mail? We are not allowed to send ripster's threads off on a tangent or he will close it. But of course he is allowed to send things off on tangents all he wants on our threads.

I don't think it had anything to do with going off topic.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 16:03:02: In that case no, but it seems to be a trend in other threads though. Albeit not necessarily with the closing.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 20 November 2009, 16:09:21: I just went to lock my pc and realized there is no right windows key. I usually do a 1 handed win-L to lock my workstation as I slide away from my PC using the right windows key.... I guess this board does have 1 shortcoming for my use.

I have noticed I bump keys when resting my pinkies on them but I can get used to that.

Is the 87u the only Realforce with 2 Win keys?
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 16:09:25: Quote from: ch_123;134709
In that case no, but it seems to be a trend in other threads though. Albeit not necessarily with the closing.

That's true, and I'm partly to blame. I think, in general, that there is a natural topic drift when we start comparing one keyboard to another and talk about this feature and that. On the other hand, it doesn't help when I make a stupid joke, or post something completely off topic, and derail the whole thread. I appologize for that.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 16:23:05: Quote from: didjamatic;134715
I just went to lock my pc and realized there is no right windows key. I usually do a 1 handed win-L to lock my workstation as I slide away from my PC using the right windows key.... I guess this board does have 1 shortcoming for my use.

I have noticed I bump keys when resting my pinkies on them but I can get used to that.

Is the 87u the only Realforce with 2 Win keys?

The pinky keys have caused many people issues ripster disliked it so much he cut and moved some 45g domes to the pinky keys. I just got used to it and have learned to not rest my pinky on the keyboard any more so I don't get the ;;;;;;;;;;;;; or aaaaaaaaaaa issue any more.

The other Realforce boards with two Win keys have Japanese layouts. The 103U has not been updated in quit some time.

EDIT: The above is incorrect the 87U is currently the only board with Win keys on both sides of the space bar. I thought the 91U had 2 Win keys but it is like the 103U.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 20 November 2009, 23:08:56: At the beginning I was getting aaaaaa, not anymore. The absence of right Windows key does not affect me, but I can understand why those who use would have like to have it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 01 December 2009, 18:25:05: For the past month, I have been using my Topre and my Filco with brown Cherries almost exclusively. The Filco at work and the Topre at home. After a month, I tried my Customizer, AT101W, and ABS M1 and they all seem to have very very heavy switches, more for the Customizer.

Very often, those who have never tried a Topre would ask how different the Topre is from a rubber dome since it has rubber domes inside. One of the main differences I've seen is that on cheap rubber dome keyboads, the pastic is not very strong and sturdy so that when you keep pressing on the keys, you have the impression that it going deeper and deeper. With the Topre, once you hit the bottom, that's it, you are not going any farther. You don't get that annoying friction noise once you've hit the bottom. It's hard to explain and I hope I did a good job explaining this in words.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 01 December 2009, 20:14:53: Punch the keys for god's sake!
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 01 December 2009, 21:26:00: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;137867
For the past month, I have been using my Topre and my Filco with brown Cherries almost exclusively. The Filco at work and the Topre at home. After a month, I tried my Customizer, AT101W, and ABS M1 and they all seem to have very very heavy switches, more for the Customizer.

After using my Topre boards for a few months I did the same (Model M, White Alps, ABS M1) and like you I found the switches way to heavy for me to use any more.

I've pretty much sold off my heavy switch boards other than my BS boards. And any new boards I purchase now are all lighter boards. The heaviest board that I currently type on a regular basis is my short throw Topre which has 55g keys. I don't think I could type on anything much heaver than that for very long any more.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 02 December 2009, 05:59:04: Quote from: PRISONER 24601;137902
Punch the keys for god's sake!

Trust me, I tried. But, it was relatively painful for my wrists.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 02 December 2009, 06:01:22: Quote from: rdjack21;137908
After using my Topre boards for a few months I did the same (Model M, White Alps, ABS M1) and like you I found the switches way to heavy for me to use any more.

I've pretty much sold off my heavy switch boards other than my BS boards. And any new boards I purchase now are all lighter boards. The heaviest board that I currently type on a regular basis is my short throw Topre which has 55g keys. I don't think I could type on anything much heaver than that for very long any more.

That's my exact feeling. That being said, I find it hard to sell my keybaords LOL. In that sense I'm a hoarder. I think the market is also different in Canada.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 02 December 2009, 09:42:26: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;137954
That's my exact feeling. That being said, I find it hard to sell my keybaords LOL. In that sense I'm a hoarder. I think the market is also different in Canada.

Yea I know what you mean that is why I still have my BS boards. Even though I don't use them I can't bring myself to sell them off. I just was not as attached to my White Alps or the Blue cherry boards I did sell off.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: erricrice on Wed, 02 December 2009, 09:47:27: Quote from: rdjack21;138004
Yea I know what you mean that is why I still have my BS boards. Even though I don't use them I can't bring myself to sell them off. I just was not as attached to my White Alps or the Blue cherry boards I did sell off.

And then there's the ABS which no one really wants anyway...lol
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 02 December 2009, 09:48:16: I would like to sell some of my keyboards, but when I go through my relatively small collection, there isn't any I want to let go of. I want to keep my Ms for sentimental value (and I might want to use them some day), and my Northgate is fairly rare. I would sell my ABSs, but you can get a new one for so cheap these days, that I don't think anyone would want to buy them. Same for the Dells (I would probably give those away, anyway).
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 02 December 2009, 09:48:47: Quote from: erricrice;138008
And then there's the ABS which no one really wants anyway...lol

Hah, just before I got mine in.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 02 December 2009, 10:38:53: Quote from: itlnstln;138009
I would like to sell some of my keyboards, but when I go through my relatively small collection, there isn't any I want to let go of. I want to keep my Ms for sentimental value (and I might want to use them some day), and my Northgate is fairly rare. I would sell my ABSs, but you can get a new one for so cheap these days, that I don't think anyone would want to buy them. Same for the Dells (I would probably give those away, anyway).

Sometimes it's easier to give than to sell, and sometimes giving makes me feel better than selling. Also, I'm sure my daughter will kill some keyboards when she gets older :-) Maybe I should buy her one of these keyboards for smaller hands so that she can start typing properly right from the beginning.

The good thing is I have only one of each except for the blue Cherries G80. This gives me the impression that I am just like any collector and I'm not any different from someone collecting shot glasses or whatever...
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 02 December 2009, 11:47:25: Quote from: erricrice;138008
And then there's the ABS which no one really wants anyway...lol

I liked mine when I got it, but the noise level was a bit too much for the office or typing at night. At home, it was not a problem as long as I was using it during the day, but since I do most of my home typing at night or very very early in the morning, it soon became annoying for my wife.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 02 December 2009, 12:47:30: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;138042
I liked mine when I got it, but the noise level was a bit too much for the office or typing at night. At home, it was not a problem as long as I was using it during the day, but since I do most of my home typing at night or very very early in the morning, it soon became annoying for my wife.

I liked mine when I got it, too, but then I found Cherry switches.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 02 December 2009, 12:56:35: Quote from: itlnstln;138049
I liked mine when I got it, too, but then I found Cherry switches.

It's a good thing spouses don't view each other like keyboards, isn't it? :-)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: MsKeyboard on Wed, 02 December 2009, 13:06:45: "It's a good thing spouses don't view each other like keyboards, isn't it? :-)"

Go tell that to Tiger's wife!
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 02 December 2009, 13:49:09: Could someone please tell me what I need to know about Tiger and his wife? I have no clue :-) I watch television for about half an hour daily while and about two hours on Saturdays (soccer). That's it.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: MsKeyboard on Wed, 02 December 2009, 13:54:55: It appears that Tiger's caddy called in sick, and he was found wandering off course and hitting the wrong hole!

PS....Glad you like your new board.....Later
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: MsKeyboard on Wed, 02 December 2009, 14:14:57: Ha! Never thought of it that way. Maybe another business opportunity, especially if I want to move to Florida.

BTW, great diorama, but she's all blond

Later.........
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 02 December 2009, 18:50:55: What do tied-up tigers have to do with computer keyboards?
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 02 December 2009, 21:40:35: Quote from: erricrice;138008
And then there's the ABS which no one really wants anyway...lol

Yea pretty much the only reason I still have it. Even my son does not want it :) He tells me he prefers the Customizer or the Model M space saver.
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 03 December 2009, 03:27:57: Quote from: ripster;138063
Show Image
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/AKSig/Tiger-Woods-Wife-Pink.jpg)

That picture is rather... revealing =P
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 03 December 2009, 04:11:08: Quote from: MsKeyboard;138069
It appears that Tiger's caddy called in sick, and he was found wandering off course and hitting the wrong hole!

PS....Glad you like your new board.....Later

Yes, I like the keyboard a lot. The more I use it, the more I like it.

Speaking of wrong hole... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV6h9N9-aGo)
Title: Realforce 103 White
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 04 December 2009, 16:06:14: I wonder how many smacks from a golf club a Model M can withstand without breaking.