I'm going to respond to everybody until so far in one post. I want to thank you all for contributing in this topic, we really appreciate the time you invest to take a look.
Could you describe the benefits of this keyboard over say, the Corsair line of gaming keyboards? (this seems to come quite close to their design)
Are you able to be more specific about the switches (actual Cherrys?), and keycaps (ie material)?
Not much to really comment on so far with the information given.
Thanks for your comment, I'm going to expand a bit on this post:
I failed to note that we're looking for feedback on the overall design and anything noticeable. We're releasing details of the keyboard every week through our developer blog posts, as we want to pace the entire keyboard and progressively improve on our initial ideas. Also we're restricted by several factors that don't allow us to fully disclose the exact details of the keyboard yet.
Most of the details I'm able to release can be found on either the blog post (http://bit.ly/3Drenderblog) or through the comments in the reddit post (http://bit.ly/wootingdisred). The latter has become quite a list of answers and questions. We will soon summarize the highlights of this post.
Everybody has his own preference in a keyboard, therefore it's hard for me to tell you what makes this keyboard better than others or Corsair. There are some dominant factors that will distinguish our keyboard by far with anything out there, but I can't go into these details yet.
But based on the information released until so far, and quickly from the top of my head:
- Compact design
- TKL design (preference)
- no extra dedicated keys (e.g. windows lock, media keys, macro)
- Function key toggle, making media key layer first not secondary (more about this in our upcoming blog)
- Less gamer flair, more mature design
- Detachable USB
- Standard layout = can use majority aftermarket keycaps
As I've mentioned before, we're not trying to distinguish ourselves specifically on the design (including keycaps), there are already so many different great options for mechanical keyboards, and otherwise you can just build the one you love.
So to answer the switches question, all I can say for now is that we're not using Kaihl. As for the keycaps, they'll be lasered opaque ABS caps to go with our white LED and on selected keys white+red LED backlight.
A few comments:
-I don't like either the TKL form factor or the floating key design, but I know that a lot of people do, so I'll leave these issues aside. Anyway, the floating key design is probably a good choice from a marketing perspective, thanks to the prevalence of morons who see the exposed plate of something like a Corsair and go, "Wow! Much metal! So quality!", even though they're actually looking at a part of the keyboard (the plate) that is metal in most mechanical keyboards, and all that is actually different is that plastic pieces which usually cover that metal have been removed.
-I think the main question for something like this has to be: what's it for? I don't really see anything about it to make it interesting. Maybe you have some kind of interesting feature that you haven't revealed yet, but without knowing that, it's hard to see what the point of yet another "normal" keyboard would be.
-It's hard to tell from the renders, but the front of the case has me a bit worried. Given what you've said elsewhere about pricing, there's no chance that you'll have a good wrist rest included, so the design has to be able to accommodate a 3rd party wrist rest placed in front of it without a big gap.
-If you want this to be a gaming-oriented keyboard, then your "optimized" function key layout makes no sense. Given that the typical gamer keeps their keyboard hand on or near WASD, you've managed to put the media controls just about as far away as possible.
-Removable cable is a cause for concern. In general, the ports for such cables tend to be failure points; they're often more vulnerable to damage than either the cables themselves or the connection for a non-removable cable (assuming that the keyboard has been designed with proper stress relief).
Really appreciate the time you invest, and the input. Thanks.
To answer:
1. I feel you. From a practicality/durability perspective you'd might want to have the additional cover piece. But we've deliberately chosen for a floating key design for another reason, yet to be announced. It also helped us to add a bit more gamer feel to it.
2. The main reason behind this post was for an impression on our design. We had no intention to announce all the specifications of the keyboard. As I've mentioned before, we want to introduce all the features and aspects of the keyboard in a pace, so that we can progressively improve on our initial ideas. E.g. a major change we're probably going to make is to add some type of numpad layer on the 789 keys.
I'm sorry if I've formulated my initial post wrong.
3. This is also something that's come to our attention, thanks to you all. We need to test it out and see what the actual impact is. We might shorten the front bezel as a result.
4. Interesting point. We felt that media keys were not something that important to have on your left hand side, and you'd rather use the second layer for your own macro/hotkeys. We strategically placed the media and other keys in a compact area of underused keys. It's easy to reach all of them quickly with your right hand. On top of that we have a Fn toggle key that allows you to put the media keys on the first layer instead of the second.
Also It's easier to take your hand off the mouse to press something, then to stop walking or awkwardly position the left hand to play the next song, which you'll never do in a tense situation.
5. This is something we've also learned from you all and we're not sure what the net effect will be, but nonetheless, the masses will prefer detachables, just like we do. Just hate rolling the cable around the keyboard or dangling it around.
I anticipate that it will be confused with Corsair's.
I suppose that the 3D model of the keycaps is just really bad, and that you will use regular OEM profile keycaps.
BTW, the 3D render has only two keys shared between Del, End and PgDn ...
You're right. lol.
Actually, since it's lasered and manufactured for our keyboard, we're free to play around with the fonts. We're only restricted in the keycap mold we're using.
Not sure what you mean with that it only has two keys shared between Del, End and PgDn.
The font is not that bad. However, the name "Wooting" is kinda weird. I legit thought this thread was going to be someone asking for advice on how to get their keyboard to stop making farting sounds. I realize that makes no sense. Why would a keyboard make farting sounds, and why would someone refer to that sound as "wooting". IDK, I'm just saying that is what I thought.
The board itself looks much better than a Corsair and you get a big plus for a standard layout.
It's funny how people read it haha. We had another guy who read it as Wu-Tang keyboard. Thanks for the compliment!
Only thing really turning me off is the font on the caps. Besides that, it basically looks like a much nicer corsair k-line board
We're still playing with the fonts and icons, but in the end we're going for something a bit plain and not too "futuristic" as you would find it on a majority of gaming keyboards. We don't want to stand out with some type of special font, rather leave that job to the keycap aftermarket.
Thanks for the compliment though!
That's interesting, you go for a design that is close to what Corsair does yet, it's much better looking.
I'll throw what I notice in no specific order:
The caps in the render looks way too scooped, compared to what it will looks.
Font is meh, and position of it is not consistent (Esc+Tab Top Left while rest is centered).
Show Image
(http://blog.wooting.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/1top-front-nice.jpg)
The inclined front of the keyboard will not look great with most of the Wrist Rests.
The feets that add angle to the board look very not solid, and I see no rubber on it to avoid sliding.
You might want to add pass through under the board like this (http://vrworld.com/Data/2012_12_13/Review-CM-Storm-QuickFire-TK-Keyboard/back.JPG).
Show Image
(http://blog.wooting.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/1onder.jpg)
What is the plan for switches ? Cherries only or expand for other cherry clones like Gaterons or kailhs?
What is the plan for keycaps ?
Please consider ISO layout.
Thanks for the compliment! It's funny how everybody sees corsair line in it, while we didn't aim for it.
Now to answer:
- We're still playing around with the fonts and icons. But as you can read above, in the end we won't distinguish ourselves with it with flashy things. Took note of the inconsistency.
- The font bezel might not look the best with wrist pads, also thanks to you all, we're looking if it will influence the ergonomics. We need to play around with it a bit more
- It's hard to see on the bottom render (didn't work out too well), but it actually has an under passthrough. Sharp noticing the rubber feet, we overseen it in the render. We're adding it to the next version.
- Going to reuse this line: So to answer the switches question, all I can say for now is that we're not using Kaihl. As for the keycaps, they'll be lasered opaque ABS caps to go with our white LED and on selected keys white+red LED backlight
- ISO Layout, we've been talking about it, and it all depends on demand. If our production is high enough it's not too hard for us to configure one. But if it's not, we are only able to do it by per piece production, which will cost more. Still figuring out the best solution here, but like I said, it mainly depends on demand.
Two points:
1. Your renderings are showing a black top plate. That would mean the top plate is either black powder coated aluminum or black powder coated stainless steel, extra finish work. Therefore with finishing the top plate, expect to pay more for that as opposed to raw stainless. If you are thinking the top plate should be plastic, in my opinion don't do that, because even entry Chinese boards have stainless plates. If you want black plastic, look at the Novatouch. The plate is recessed down inside the plastic housing, and it is still steel. That would mean your rendering should show recessed switches, not standoffs.
Even better is a CNC steel housing and steel plate. But costs more and would price the board out the market probably.
2. Sooner or later, you have to mention raw basics about your switches, I mean actuation force and travel. You will make or break the board when you do that, though, so do it when you have figured out damn good marketing points. I would be turned off if the actuation is more than a MX black, for example. Most gamers are using blues or reds at 45gs. Gateron clears are even lighter.
1. Interesting, the top plate is made from aluminum, the last sample I've made was of 6061 grade. It's not powder coated but anodized. With anodization, a thin top layer of the material changes into the color, so it's not a "coating" and you can't "scratch of the painting". The current prototype uses Anodized sandblasted black, but we don't like it, so we made some different sample colors in brushed. Since you're cool, here's a picture :)
(http://i.imgur.com/Qr4GPx2.jpg)
2. Can't wait to start talking about it. Other user made the right comment. It's not heavier than black, it's not as light as Red. Yes there are/will be different versions.
I see what you mean. We can't do it with the stock version, but if you've noticed we have swappable top plates. At a future point, If multiple people are interested in it, it would be possible to make a limited amount of top plates that have a flush blank right with the same PCB. Just utilizing fewer keys. Can't disclose more than that at this moment.
That would be ultimate! :cool:
Will you be doing a 100% layout at any point too?
We've gotten a lot of requests, if enough people support it, there will be a 100% version.
Okay, I looked at your website. I see your main pitch is the “analog” thing. You should edit the first post of this thread and the thread title to reflect that.
Some thoughts:
Film editing
Scrub smoothly with precise control through your edit.
Music production
Produce different sounds based on the speed and/or depth of a key press. Similar to playing the piano and pressing a key string hard or soft.
Super secure passwords
Everybody has their own unique typing behavior and input methods. The keyboard can trace this unique typing identity and recognize it’s you filling in the correct password.
For scrubbing through film, a jog wheel (or mouse scroll wheel, or trackball, or similar) is much better than an analog button.
No offense, but the super secure password thing is really dumb. Existing passwords are already hard enough, making the password need a particular typing style is going to just lock people out of their computers.
For musical instruments, analog keys are great, but not in a QWERTY/ANSI keyboard arrangement. If you want to make a musical instrument, you should make some differently shaped keyboard, designed for the purpose.
There are definitely plenty of other cool possibilities with analog switches though. Will all the switches be analog, or only WASD + spacebar? What is the mechanism? Magnets? Capsense? Optical?
I suspect your biggest problem will be the software chicken-and-egg barrier. That is, right now, nobody has analog keyboards, so there’s no reason for software to support it. Because there’s no software support, there’s no reason for hardware vendors to build analog keyboards. USB HID is going to be mostly useless for fully taking advantage of analog keys, so you’ll need some kind of custom protocol support on both ends, which is going to take a ton of work to get working across platforms. All the best luck though! I’d love to have more analog computer inputs out there in the world.
* * *
Are your renders showing the actual shape of your keycaps? If so, you have too little space between keys, and the keycaps overall are too flat and uniform, in my opinion. It’s easier to press keys accurately when there’s adequate gap between keytops, and adequate step between the home row and further rows. Standard keycap tops are larger than ideal, and were designed mostly to fit several printed legends on them, because some international keyboard layouts need up to 4 symbols printed on the top of the key. The smaller “spherical” keytops from keyboards made in the 1970s were better, as far as touch typing is concerned.
For analysis, see http://johnbear.net/symbolics-keyboard-paper/MacIvoryKeyboard.pdf
Your layout right now looks roughly like an Apple chiclet laptop keyboard, with deeper key travel. The Apple laptop board’s keytops are larger than they ideally should be, but it’s not the end of the world because they have such low travel. If you have a full-travel switch with similarly tight spacing, typists are going to end up making lots of mistakes with their fingers hitting two keys at once. The flat, unsculpted keycaps of laptop keyboards are a necessary compromise to keep them thin. If you have a normal-sized external keyboard, there’s no reason to make that compromise.
In picture form this:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ivgULup.jpg)
or this:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/wsKUt3c.jpg)
is better than this:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/x05SV4J.png)
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Edit: Many, many modern keyboards get this wrong. The standard cheap backlight-friendly “OEM profile” keycaps used on “gamer” keyboards are all quite poorly designed.
Sorry if my rant about keycap shapes sounds too negative. If it seems like an off-topic distraction for this thread, and you’re stuck with some existing keycap shape, I can edit my post to chop it out.
Woooh! Very cool, and I totally understand where you are coming from, you never know how until you've used it. Actually, the keyboard isn't all flat, it's in stairs, but I have to be honest, we couldn't choose the stock keycap model and are limited to an existing mold. I'm connecting with Tai-Hao to see if we can offer better options for the more experienced users.
Concerning analog: Thanks for the input, I understand that there are better devices for the specific purpose, but I hope these things help to think and share how you would use it in your own situation. Also, isn't it already convenient if you can just bring your keyboard to where-ever and still have the film scrubbing benefits, music synthesizing and other things? Also, this would be a cheaper all-in-one solution than having to buy all these different devices. For amateur music or filmmakers, it's really convenient, just like the majority of Youtube creators.
Our goal is to make the entire keyboard analog but to find the right solution, it needs longer development time. At the moment, we're able to support up to 16 Analog keys without increasing the cost significantly - This is really important to us, because we aiming for a certain price range, so that everybody can get started. At first, we're focused at Gamers, so the current analog keys are: QWER, ASDF, Capslock, Ctrl, Alt, Spacebar and the arrow keys. We're probably going to change the keys a bit, depending on what makes most sense.
we're working on a next generation mechanical keyboard.
Can you explain why this is “next generation”? This looks like dozens of other keyboards from the past 10 years.
Next generation, because the keyboard has never seen any real change for years. Many have tried, but nothing has changed and we've even went back to the mechanical system. In this case, we've added another input dimension. So seeing that the keyboard already survived many generation being exactly the same, why would this not be a next generation version :)
Thanks for the input all.