Can we add "vehemently don't care" as an option?
And **** nipples.
You're in that, eh? ;)
We already support obscure layouts that are never put in discussion, because we need to reach the moq, because it will be easier to resell, and because there be someone who really likes that layout.
All those particular layouts have never been in the original set (beige, skidata etc), so you can't just say that you don't want bars because of historical fidelity. The original Skidata is iso only... So are we erasing the ansi option?
You kids and your peasant MX homing indicators.
My Model F doesn't have homing keys. I don't need them.
If we are talking homing indicators, bars are the only acceptable solution for the home row. Scoops feel weird and tiny nipples belong on the number pad 5 and my cats.
But nothing works fine and looks smooth and integrated.
If we are including bars, then shouldn't we also include nipples to not discrimate?
Scoops>Gateron Scoop/Bar>bars>nipples>apples nipple keys on d and k
Because, in the keyboard world, nearly nobody likes nipples. They are without doubt annoying. I don't think that because we add an option, we should add all the possible optionsIf we are including bars, then shouldn't we also include nipples to not discrimate?
Scoops>Gateron Scoop/Bar>bars>nipples>apples nipple keys on d and k
Forced r5 will mostly put me away unless it is a set that looks really good and if I have a modpack that goes with it and let's me fixBecause, in the keyboard world, nearly nobody likes nipples. They are without doubt annoying. I don't think that because we add an option, we should add all the possible optionsIf we are including bars, then shouldn't we also include nipples to not discrimate?
Scoops>Gateron Scoop/Bar>bars>nipples>apples nipple keys on d and k
Why not? Isn't your argument for bars that since a minority like bars and cannot get adjusted to scoops that bars should be added as an alternative option in sets as well? Following that, we should include nibs as an option as well since some people like them.
In the end, it's up to whoever is running to buy to decide. Personally, I dislike bars and prefer scoops, but bars instead of scoops will not keep me from the set. The main thing that will keep me from a set is R5 modifiers on the bottom row. That is intolerable.
We already support obscure layouts that are never put in discussion, because we need to reach the moq, because it will be easier to resell, and because there be someone who really likes that layout.
All those particular layouts have never been in the original set (beige, skidata etc), so you can't just say that you don't want bars because of historical fidelity. The original Skidata is iso only... So are we erasing the ansi option?
Who is saying that they would prefer scoops simply for historical reasons? Most people just prefer scoops for the feel. And what obscure layouts do buys support? ANSI and the most universal ISO set possible?
Because, in the keyboard world, nearly nobody likes nipples. They are without doubt annoying. I don't think that because we add an option, we should add all the possible optionsIf we are including bars, then shouldn't we also include nipples to not discrimate?
Scoops>Gateron Scoop/Bar>bars>nipples>apples nipple keys on d and k
Why not? Isn't your argument for bars that since a minority like bars and cannot get adjusted to scoops that bars should be added as an alternative option in sets as well? Following that, we should include nibs as an option as well since some people like them.
In the end, it's up to whoever is running to buy to decide. Personally, I dislike bars and prefer scoops, but bars instead of scoops will not keep me from the set. The main thing that will keep me from a set is R5 modifiers on the bottom row. That is intolerable.
Lovers of nipples are a mini minority.Unless they have always used a board with nipples :)
99% of keyboards are sold with bars, so it is quite improbable that a nipple lover says that he doesn't want a set because it doesn't have nipples; he surely is already used to other options.Because, in the keyboard world, nearly nobody likes nipples. They are without doubt annoying. I don't think that because we add an option, we should add all the possible optionsIf we are including bars, then shouldn't we also include nipples to not discrimate?
Scoops>Gateron Scoop/Bar>bars>nipples>apples nipple keys on d and k
Why not? Isn't your argument for bars that since a minority like bars and cannot get adjusted to scoops that bars should be added as an alternative option in sets as well? Following that, we should include nibs as an option as well since some people like them.
In the end, it's up to whoever is running to buy to decide. Personally, I dislike bars and prefer scoops, but bars instead of scoops will not keep me from the set. The main thing that will keep me from a set is R5 modifiers on the bottom row. That is intolerable.
Scoops + nipples obviously best option /threadShow Image(https://dangwang.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_0486.jpg)
Scoop only zone
The thing is when you allow multiple layout:
-standard ANSI 1.25
- WKL ANSI
- 1800
- HHKB like
- 75%
you actually add customers because people can actually use the keycaps for their keyboard, and if they end up parting with it or putting it on another board with different layout.
I'm azerty only typist, do I ask for Azerty kits ? No because I know it's not doable. Inb4 only 2 keys.
ps: if you could quote like a regular person that would be more readable.
Why do you even put quotes on the bottom
But like, how? On tapatalk and just regular mobile browser it defaults to the top of the message
Because cellphone :-)Why do you even put quotes on the bottom
But like, how? On tapatalk and just regular mobile browser it defaults to the top of the message
Because cellphone :-)Why do you even put quotes on the bottom
I mean like the quote defaults to the top. I've never seen any circumstance where this isn't trueBut like, how? On tapatalk and just regular mobile browser it defaults to the top of the message
Because cellphone :-)Why do you even put quotes on the bottom
I use Safari and have no issue typing at the bottom of a quote and never had....
I mean like the quote defaults to the top. I've never seen any circumstance where this isn't trueBut like, how? On tapatalk and just regular mobile browser it defaults to the top of the message
Because cellphone :-)Why do you even put quotes on the bottom
I use Safari and have no issue typing at the bottom of a quote and never had....
Because, in the keyboard world, nearly nobody likes nipples. They are without doubt annoying. I don't think that because we add an option, we should add all the possible optionsIf we are including bars, then shouldn't we also include nipples to not discrimate?
Scoops>Gateron Scoop/Bar>bars>nipples>apples nipple keys on d and k
Why not? Isn't your argument for bars that since a minority like bars and cannot get adjusted to scoops that bars should be added as an alternative option in sets as well? Following that, we should include nibs as an option as well since some people like them.
In the end, it's up to whoever is running to buy to decide. Personally, I dislike bars and prefer scoops, but bars instead of scoops will not keep me from the set. The main thing that will keep me from a set is R5 modifiers on the bottom row. That is intolerable.
I haven't felt any nips on GH yet.
Would you guys please stop derailing the thread with Giorgio's weird Tapatalk quoting habits?
Make your own thread about it pls, ty.
I like the Cherry style scoops, but SP's scooped DSA isn't very good. The scoop isn't pronounced enough for me.
I do like bars as well (more or less equal to scoops for me, but I'd take bars over SP scoops for sure), and I've really been enjoying the Gateron caps with both scoop and bar. Best of both worlds! ;D
You kids and your peasant MX homing indicators.
My Model F doesn't have homing keys. I don't need them.
Scoops + nipples obviously best option /threadShow Image(https://dangwang.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_0486.jpg)
I am more of an ass man than a nip man
I am more of an ass man than a nip man
...and there it is.
I'm impressed, GeekHack, we made it to post #72 before the first nipple joke!
EDIT: I just re-read page 1. We actually only made it to #2.
As far as GMK, since they have bars now those probably can be included both as long as there are not loads of other additional keys... as every keys do add up to the final cost and it seems once the sets go over $120 it's much harder for people to get behind it. GMK won't do center dots on F J anymore though... I kept trying to get them and they refuse due to something about the way the mold for that key are set up makes too much extra work.
flat
flat
no more bars?
scoops or death.
scoops or death.
Is that what you got on your realforce?
What is there to let go of?
I'm just curious how people make extreme statements yet their own usage is counter to that.
I'm sure some people have swapped sliders but given that is a recent thing.
I actually don't mind scoops..I just prefer bars..but the attitude by some is no one likes bars...and that's been proven false...
What is there to let go of?
I'm just curious how people make extreme statements yet their own usage is counter to that.
I'm sure some people have swapped sliders but given that is a recent thing.
I actually don't mind scoops..I just prefer bars..but the attitude by some is no one likes bars...and that's been proven false...
I'm not going to bother arguing but all I've seen you post is pointed statements towards Topre/realforce keyboards. Chill man.
What is there to let go of?
I'm just curious how people make extreme statements yet their own usage is counter to that.
I'm sure some people have swapped sliders but given that is a recent thing.
I actually don't mind scoops..I just prefer bars..but the attitude by some is no one likes bars...and that's been proven false...
I'm not going to bother arguing but all I've seen you post is pointed statements towards Topre/realforce keyboards. Chill man.
What do you mean? I love Topre boards...and have said so numerous times. My main boards are Topre and use Cherry for gaming..
The reason I reference Topre boards is all of the keycaps for Topre boards have bars....So when Topre users say Scoops or nothing, it just seems out of place.
I was getting confused by your posts too. I didn't think any of Polymer's posts were offensive!What is there to let go of?
I'm just curious how people make extreme statements yet their own usage is counter to that.
I'm sure some people have swapped sliders but given that is a recent thing.
I actually don't mind scoops..I just prefer bars..but the attitude by some is no one likes bars...and that's been proven false...
I'm not going to bother arguing but all I've seen you post is pointed statements towards Topre/realforce keyboards. Chill man.
What do you mean? I love Topre boards...and have said so numerous times. My main boards are Topre and use Cherry for gaming..
The reason I reference Topre boards is all of the keycaps for Topre boards have bars....So when Topre users say Scoops or nothing, it just seems out of place.
Hm, I guess I thought you were someone else then. Not sure why, sorry man :-X
I swear his name rung a bell though... Was there another thread that he was in where someone else was being irrational in relation to topre/reakforce?I was getting confused by your posts too. I didn't think any of Polymer's posts were offensive!What is there to let go of?
I'm just curious how people make extreme statements yet their own usage is counter to that.
I'm sure some people have swapped sliders but given that is a recent thing.
I actually don't mind scoops..I just prefer bars..but the attitude by some is no one likes bars...and that's been proven false...
I'm not going to bother arguing but all I've seen you post is pointed statements towards Topre/realforce keyboards. Chill man.
What do you mean? I love Topre boards...and have said so numerous times. My main boards are Topre and use Cherry for gaming..
The reason I reference Topre boards is all of the keycaps for Topre boards have bars....So when Topre users say Scoops or nothing, it just seems out of place.
Hm, I guess I thought you were someone else then. Not sure why, sorry man :-X
Yeah that was Cheebs...but I'm the one that likes Topre :).
I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.
I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.
The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam
Why would I focus on that part? It's an opinion; scoops aren't prominent enough for him. Am I supposed to tell him his preferences are wrong?I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.
The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam
You just focused on the least relevant part of his post. If you need to criticize him, focus on the main part, not on the "as if this wasn't enough" part. His opinion is in the first part of his post
I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.
The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam
You just focused on the least relevant part of his post. If you need to criticize him, focus on the main part, not on the "as if this wasn't enough" part. His opinion is in the first part of his post
99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
So then the next argument is "Well this is for the enthusiasts community"I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice. Haven't get to try nipple yet.I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason
So bar for me. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.
Most high quality keycap sets use bars....ALL Topre keycaps use bars (today anyways).
And just quickly going through and counting:
Scoops: 23
Bars: 14
and for fun:
avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686
And? That means what? That more people like scoops? Or more in this thread? And the post count means what? That their preferences are more important? Or they are somehow blessed with greater knowledge so their preferences count for more? We know none of that is true..
and for fun:
Was it you or someone else said there was only myself and Giorgio?
OK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?
Yup, so the three best ABS options all use scoopsOK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?
IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT
Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?
Yup, so the three best ABS options all use scoopsOK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?
IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT
Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?
Yup, so the three best ABS options all use scoopsOK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?
IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT
Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?
It isn't 3. Cherry is GMK...they sold their stuff to GMK. JT hasn't even been released yet, it is brand new and I'm hoping these are great just as everyone else is.
So I count one and hopefully one more. But up until just recently, there has ONLY been one.
aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all ^-^. I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form
aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all ^-^. I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form
My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.
1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy it.
3. (Smaller) profit?
aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all ^-^. I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form
My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.
1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy it.
3. (Smaller) profit?
mfw when TA reached 1K orders without bars :Show Image(https://kalireads.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/tumblr_myj78oovrl1r7tu05o1_500.gif)
mfw when Hyperfuse reached 600 (700?) orders without bars:Show Image(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3f/f4/98/3ff4980d9b0b03b81a06157bbb34ddc8.gif)
do I need to mention the Dolch addon with bars in it ?Show Image(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4044933/trying-not-to-laugh-o.gif)
It's not mentioned because they assume you know that GMK uses scoops. It's also obvious in the renders. The cost would be closer to $2 for two keys. An add on for just bar keys wouldn't tip anyway at the MOQ it would require for GMK to do bars anywayaight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all ^-^. I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form
My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.
1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy it.
3. (Smaller) profit?
mfw when TA reached 1K orders without bars :Show Image(https://kalireads.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/tumblr_myj78oovrl1r7tu05o1_500.gif)
mfw when Hyperfuse reached 600 (700?) orders without bars:Show Image(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3f/f4/98/3ff4980d9b0b03b81a06157bbb34ddc8.gif)
do I need to mention the Dolch addon with bars in it ?Show Image(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4044933/trying-not-to-laugh-o.gif)
Those numbers mean nothing.
Did the dolch add-on cost $1? Because that's the cost of two keys.
Scoops are often not mentioned in the description of the GB, so maybe someone missed it. I nearly missed it.
And just quickly going through and counting:
Scoops: 23
Bars: 14
and for fun:
avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686
Why does the point about those who haven't tried scoops yet matter? Obviously lots of people new to this hobby will be fine with bars now seeing as they haven't had the chance to use scoops. Does that mean that they will always prefer bars? No. I wouldn't include those people in the list of bar-preferring users for that reason anyway.Of course they prefer bars..they can't prefer scoops because they haven't tried them. Of course, AFTER they try scoops they might..but certainly they do not dislike bars...
And I did, along with others, tell you and giorgio to take the discussion out of the SoWaRe thread.It was suggested it and it got moved. You act like you mentioned it multiple times but really, the escalation was because he asked that people consider it in the GB and then it degenerated into a "scoops for life" discussion...His ask is a legit one...
Offering additionnal keys to support additional layout that are common:
-1800
-75%
- HHKB
- ISO
will always be considered before adding "cosmetics" changes to some keys (please not the quotation marks).
What I consider cosmetic change is the same keycap offered with:
- bar/nip/scoops variations,
- color variation
Simply because those are what attracts buyers, and they are needed, since we work on very tight MOQ.
Remember I'm talking GMK here.
This is why I put cosmetic in between quotation marks.Offering additionnal keys to support additional layout that are common:
-1800
-75%
- HHKB
- ISO
will always be considered before adding "cosmetics" changes to some keys (please not the quotation marks).
What I consider cosmetic change is the same keycap offered with:
- bar/nip/scoops variations,
- color variation
Simply because those are what attracts buyers, and they are needed, since we work on very tight MOQ.
Remember I'm talking GMK here.
Bars/Scoops are not cosmetic..they're feel which I'd argue is the most important aspect. It is definitely not a LOOK but a feel.
Color variation is cosmetic.
As far as meeting tight MOQs...I think the formula Bunny did on Hyperfuse worked quite well. It is an all or nothing since most of the extras would never hit their MOQ.
I'm all for extra layouts..especially the very common ones..ISO is a must...WKL is a must....1800? There are barely any users with them...HHKB? Not many either...maybe 75%. You also have to consider how many keys you need to add for the changes....
Why does the point about those who haven't tried scoops yet matter? Obviously lots of people new to this hobby will be fine with bars now seeing as they haven't had the chance to use scoops. Does that mean that they will always prefer bars? No. I wouldn't include those people in the list of bar-preferring users for that reason anyway.Of course they prefer bars..they can't prefer scoops because they haven't tried them.
Of course, AFTER they try scoops they might..but certainly they do not dislike bars...
I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.I said they prefer bars. I didn't say one over another, I said they currently prefer bars because of course, they can't prefer something they haven't tried. You can of course prefer one thing that you know because you know it. You CANNOT prefer Scoops if you've never tried it.
A preference is when you like something OVER liking something else, how can you form a meaningful opinion over something you've never tried, especially when it relates to a personal opinion over how it feels when used?Did I say that? I said they prefer bars. If you actually look at least one other person on here, they said they prefer bars..and have never tried scoops so they can't say they'd prefer those.
Please, Hoff or another mod pm this chap and ask him to stop spouting literal **** 'thinly disguised' as a debate/discussion.
I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.I said they prefer bars. I didn't say one over another, I said they currently prefer bars because of course, they can't prefer something they haven't tried. You can of course prefer one thing that you know because you know it. You CANNOT prefer Scoops if you've never tried it.
I'm not sure if you really understand that or not or you're just not reading it correctly. You're calling me stupid yet you haven't read what I wrote.A preference is when you like something OVER liking something else, how can you form a meaningful opinion over something you've never tried, especially when it relates to a personal opinion over how it feels when used?Did I say that? I said they prefer bars. If you actually look at least one other person on here, they said they prefer bars..and have never tried scoops so they can't say they'd prefer those.
I did not say they prefer bars over scoops. Scoops isn't even a choice for someone that hasn't tried it. But their FJ marking preference is something they CAN have.Please, Hoff or another mod pm this chap and ask him to stop spouting literal **** 'thinly disguised' as a debate/discussion.
Really? Because I only saw you call someone stupid because you misread what they wrote. What's funny is people are getting upset because they're getting smashed in this discussion.
Facts are facts...There are people that actually do prefer bars.
There are more manufacturers of quality keycaps with bars (at least at this point in time).
Topre users all are at least tolerant of bars as that is all they have today (not counting the recent addition of mx/topre sliders).
Why have a thread if you can't deal with a discussion about it? Or if you can't, don't look at it...
This is why I put cosmetic in between quotation marks.
My point is bar/nip/scoop variations don't help populate a board with key where additional keys to support layouts do.
1800 sees a lot of users atm and more will come when the Kin25 GB will finish, that's the reason people want support for this atm. Don't know how many keys.
HHKB because of Gon HHKB & Viper, Kmac happy .... , and it's like 3-4keys for it I belive .
75% is like 3-4keys aswell.
I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.I said they prefer bars. I didn't say one over another, I said they currently prefer bars because of course, they can't prefer something they haven't tried. You can of course prefer one thing that you know because you know it. You CANNOT prefer Scoops if you've never tried it.
And just quickly going through and counting:
Scoops: 23
Bars: 14
and for fun:
avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686
You removed me, didn't you? :p
I voted for bars.
Most do.
Cherry, what existed, isn't a source. But GMK IS Cherry. It is actually the same source. If you sell your business to someone else it is still the same source.
That is ONE.
Topre Keycaps, IMSTO, Ducky...even some Vortex (although a lot suck) are all bars.
GMK = 1. JT will soon hopefully add another.
BSP is a mix.
3-3.5 sources of only bars
1 source of scoops
1 source of mixed
Simple numbers there.
What's funny is people are getting upset because they're getting smashed in this discussion.Are they now?
JTK, Lynn, pardon my ignorance, but is the business of these people/ small industries remotely comparable to gateron gmk etc?Lynn is smallish still, doesn't mean the quality isn't high. JTK is new but not a small scale operation. Most of GMK and Gateron's business isn't in keyboards, this is peanuts for them. So it's not that huge of a size difference
99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.
99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.
When you say they prefer it, that literally means they like bars OVER the over options.
99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.
99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.
Scoops: GMK, JTK, LynnDoes Cherry make keycaps any longer? My understanding is they don't. They sold that business to GMK with the actual equipment.
Scoops/Bars: Gateron
Nipples: BSP
Bars: Topre, IMSTO, Ducky
And because of my point before, I'd still include both GMK and Cherry.
Are they now?Completely. A week ago you thought there were only two people that actually preferred bars to scoops (You probably felt there were a few more)...certainly you didn't think this thread would be almost 40% for bars....and I'll be honest, I'm surprised there were that many respondents...
99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.
99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.
So you're saying nipples are more expensive to make? No right..should be the same. What about scoops? Doesn't look like it makes a huge difference either right?
So using bars isn't because it is the cheapest option...So why do they use bars?
99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.
99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.
So you're saying nipples are more expensive to make? No right..should be the same. What about scoops? Doesn't look like it makes a huge difference either right?
So using bars isn't because it is the cheapest option...So why do they use bars?
Your argument has no merit. Bars were used by IBM and some other computer pioneers early on, and as a result, other manufacturers copied IBM and used bars. As to why certain manufacturers continue to use bars after all these years? My guess would be because people are familiar with it, and they rather play it safe than innovate and use a new homing method.
It is absolutely not due to a cost issue. The fact that you would bring up "cost" just shows me that you have absolutely no experience/understanding/knowledge of the manufacturing process. (I would read up on plastic injection mould making and what not instead of spreading misinformation).
I would appreciate it if you stuck to using facts and real knowledge to debate, otherwise I don't see how anyone can take you seriously if you continue to use false statistics and claims to back your personal opinion. It's really quite unprofessional.
When you say they prefer it, that literally means they like bars OVER the over options.
No it doesn't...
If you have 10 options..and you prefer 1 of them that doesn't mean you have to have tried all 10 to have a preference. If you want to take that to a further extreme, if there are a million options, you can still have preferences even though you haven't tried every single one.
You're reading it like that..but I've even explained it.. Some people haven't used scoops so they can't have the option of preferring them...But from what they've tried they can certainly prefer bars. I even went as far as saying those that haven't tried them might actually prefer scoops but they haven't tried them yet so they can't have that as a preference.
I like bars, bars+scoops is even better. I haven't tried Deep Dish SA yet, but Deep Dish DSA I don't like.
And just quickly going through and counting:
Scoops: 23
Bars: 14
and for fun:
avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686
You removed me, didn't you? :p
I voted for bars.
You did nearly double the average :p
I like bars, bars+scoops is even better. I haven't tried Deep Dish SA yet, but Deep Dish DSA I don't like.
deep dish DSA can barely call itself deep dish. totally agree.
Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).
... I still don't see how cost is relevant to the preference of using scoops or bars.
...
Edit: I reread your argument and agree with you, but I still don't see how cost is relevant to the preference of using scoops or bars.
I like hanging around bars.I like hanging around nipples.
I like hanging around bars.I like hanging around nipples.
Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).Keycaps are usually cast for at least one keyboard in each shot.
Scoops are made for feminine fingers.
They feel unnaturally small and uncomfortable, when compared to the ergonomically correct shape of the other gmk keycaps.
Scoops are made for feminine fingers.
They feel unnaturally small and uncomfortable, when compared to the ergonomically correct shape of the other gmk keycaps.
Just to throw another spanner in the works, cost can actually be a factor. Scoops require a different mold to be designed and made (dent = raised portion in mold, requires either adding material and then shaping it which is difficult or making a new mold), whereas bars and nipples require only a small modification to an existing mold / design (bump = remove small amount of material from mold = easy).
Ban Giorgio.
Interesting, I noticed my homing keys are the 2 fn keys near the spacebar, my thumbs find those 2 keys when I'm resting, that's how I seem to mostly determine the places of the keys now
I've been using DSA blanks for those keys+spacebar, I hope I'm not too used to them, I intend to go back to Cherry profile's (going to sand them too, otherwise Cherry R4 is pretty piercing for a thumb, I've been sanding a lot of stuff lately)
With Vortex PBT's, I also enjoy the very tiny bars, especially while CMD+F'ing stuff, so I abandoned the flat F/J usage idea of mine
Here is my sanding experiment with nipples and GMK bars, I've decided to use sanded GMK bars from now on:
(Attachment Link)
(Sanded the nipple as I was considering BSP alphas to use while I wait 8 weeks for my GMK F/J's, yet it makes more sense to just abandon the BSP's and concentrate on GMK's)
(In this photo, the cyan F and the nippled 5 is sanded, the J is the default bar'ed one for comparison, the dye-sub one is a Vortex PBT, again in the default form)
(After this photo, I sanded the cyan F more, it's even better than the Vortex one now, as the bar is a bit wider)
You didn't sand them enough; they still don't look like scoops to me.
So, with the heat in Skidata+, I thought I'd post here.If it's done it should be done as only one larger set making sure if it meets MOQ everyone will be happy.
Maybe there should be a GB for barred and nipped F & J caps for all the GMK caps which came with only scoops. Dunno how practical it is, but I'm sure some people would appreciate it.
http://www.googlefight.com/scoops-vs-bars.php
http://www.googlefight.com/keycaps+scoops-vs-keycaps+bars.php
Scoops are for the fingers what a well designed turn in a highway is for a car; while, bars and nipples are like bumps, you should stop, or damage your suspension.
Scoops are for the fingers what a well designed turn in a highway is for a car; while, bars and nipples are like bumps, you should stop, or damage your suspension.
This is a taste thing. Some prefer scoops, some prefer bumps. Is it such a terrible thing to include both?That's exactly what I'm saying..
This is a taste thing. Some prefer scoops, some prefer bumps. Is it such a terrible thing to include both?
Is Gateron the only company that does the subtle scoop+bar combination? I really like that implementation, and bar haters can always sand it down IMO.
Just got my first SA set, which has nips.
Can confirm I do not like nips at all. I don't mind them on Modern Selectric as it has a bit of a "retro" feel to it...I guess retro meaning people enjoyed the sharpness of homing keys :confused:
Just got my first SA set, which has nips.
Can confirm I do not like nips at all. I don't mind them on Modern Selectric as it has a bit of a "retro" feel to it...I guess retro meaning people enjoyed the sharpness of homing keys :confused:
I always enjoyed the flat keycaps of SP - which most sets have as alternatives - Eve had scoops-only, DSA scoops were more tolerable then GMK scoops
You could try the flat keycaps of your set, maybe carve a bump into the flat keycap if it doesn't work flat
I just noticed that Ivan had bars as an option in his Dolch (and possibly others).
Is there another reason besides preference that designers exclude them? Is cost really that high that they don't think people will buy them?
I just noticed that Ivan had bars as an option in his Dolch (and possibly others).
Is there another reason besides preference that designers exclude them? Is cost really that high that they don't think people will buy them?
Some people have a hard time believing people actually do prefer bars..
Then they think the extra cost (2 euro per set) would somehow blow out the MOQ requirement and is unjustified since "no one" wants bars over scoops..
If enough people talked about it in the GB, they might actually include it...
Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.
Wasn't TA $90 with lots of extras? And it came with three custom colors.Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs)
Wasn't TA $90 with lots of extras? And it came with three custom colors.Maybe that the recent failure of super classics like beige will bring down the prices to $75, which is absolutely doable, including only Standard ISO - ansi and bar plus scoops. With extra sets available obviously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs)
Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95
Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95
i'm not sure what you're talking about here.
you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.
Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95
i'm not sure what you're talking about here.
you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.
Oh yes, why shouldn't I waste the precious time of a valued worker. Why not. So correct.
Fine let's say that without custom colors it was $95
i'm not sure what you're talking about here.
you can actually get a quote from GMK instead of making up numbers.
Oh yes, why shouldn't I waste the precious time of a valued worker. Why not. So correct.
why not?
if you're wasting their time. they totally know how to stop talking to you.
but let's be more technically accurate while we're here. you'd be SAVING them time because you could ask for the quote once and then post it to gh for everyone else to read before running their GBs.
you're trying to do good for the community right?
I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?
Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.
I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?
Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.
IMSTO orders from multiple places, one of them is Vortex, which has bars, drops mic
Why do you call people stupid man, do you really need it?
EDIT: Since the above statement is unconfirmed, if it is incorrect, that makes Cherry a valid past cap manufacturer rendering OG Cherry caps different than GMK.
[If we are excluding obvious quality differences between the two.]
I'm a couple pages late but you're all kind of spouting bull****.
Didn't cherry sell their PBT molds to BSP, and presumably the ABS molds to GMK?
So is BSP not a source because a bunch of their molds used to belong to Cherry?
EDIT: Since the above statement is unconfirmed, if it is incorrect, that makes Cherry a valid past cap manufacturer rendering OG Cherry caps different than GMK.
[If we are excluding obvious quality differences between the two.]
Are GMK and BSP then considered the same company, both having bought their molds from Cherry?
Someone said BSP uses nipples and IMSTO uses bars; IMSTO orders from BSP, so either they have both molds or someone is stupid.
I mean really, I just outlined why like ten of you are stupid.