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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: joneslee85 on Wed, 14 October 2009, 22:17:59

Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: joneslee85 on Wed, 14 October 2009, 22:17:59
Das Keyboard must have loved the way Apple does their branding, there is iPhone 3G and 3G S, Das Keyboard has Das Keyboard and now they have ... version S with many features listed here:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20091014005720&newsLang=en (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20091014005720&newsLang=en)


I woud like to ask keyboard experts here what how come PS/2 could achieve Full-N-Key and do you think the Quiet Silent version use the same switch (I suspect them using the brown switch).
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 14 October 2009, 23:12:54
Quote from: joneslee85;125493
Das Keyboard must have loved the way Apple does their branding, there is iPhone 3G and 3G S, Das Keyboard has Das Keyboard and now they have ... version S with many features listed here:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20091014005720&newsLang=en (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20091014005720&newsLang=en)


I woud like to ask keyboard experts here what how come PS/2 could achieve Full-N-Key and do you think the Quiet Silent version use the same switch (I suspect them using the brown switch).


I, too, suspect the silent version uses brown Cherries. The site say it produces a little softer feel.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: kode on Thu, 15 October 2009, 01:38:06
Quote from: joneslee85;125493
I woud like to ask keyboard experts here what how come PS/2 could achieve Full-N-Key and do you think the Quiet Silent version use the same switch (I suspect them using the brown switch).


IIRC USB limits the amount of simultaneous keypresses for some reason, PS/2 doesn't.

And yeah, I think they're browns as well.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: JBert on Thu, 15 October 2009, 06:11:44
Exactly. PS/2 is a wire protocol which was made for keyboards: it sends only 3 things over the wire:
-command
-key press event
-key release event

The only limit here is in buffer size (16 events) because your computer may not always be able to process the events in a timely manner.


USB on the other hand is a general purpose serial wire protocol used to connect peripherals to your PC. Different devices will use a different protocol on top of USB, for keyboards it is USB HID (Human Interface Device).

USD HID doesn't use key events, instead it uses a special kind of "data packets". Each time the keyboard is polled, it sends a table of keys which is currently held down. The computer can then figure out which keys are pressed or released by making the difference between the previous table and the current one. The limit here is the table size, but most devices are able to choose their own size. The only exception are keyboards.

When you turn on your PC, you may want to get into your BIOS setup. For this reason, USB keyboards are required to use a simplified and fixed way of talking to the PC so the BIOS doesn't need to know everything about the USB HID standard. Instead, the key table is limitted to 6 keys + modifiers.

Custom USB drivers could be made to understand a custom HID "data packet" so they contain more keys. It isn't so feasible to do though as you'll need to make one for every flavour of OS. Because of this, most vendors simply tend to use the default drivers instead and we have to live with this limitation.

I suspect there might still be a way around all this, at the risk of incompatibility with some operating systems.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 15 October 2009, 10:29:40
Quote from: ripster;125622
I'm putting my bets on Cherry Blacks.


I'll take bets on them using the new Brown/Blue hybrid with the DIP switch for enabling/disabling the click.

Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 15 October 2009, 10:48:02
I used a push pin on the DIPs on my CH Trackball.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 15 October 2009, 10:51:35
Quote from: ripster;125632
We need a DIP Switch Tutorial!

First learn catch flies with chopsticks, Daniel san. Then you ready to flip switches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1gAHil89Z4
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:17:49
pencils might leave marks.

toothpicks are ideal.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: mike2h on Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:44:45
the site said the silent model s was 'quieter' & that there was some noise. between the blacks & the browns which would be produce less noise? from what i have read here the only noise the blacks make is the the thunk if u bottom out so that doesnt seem to fit the bill. the site said there would be some sort of tactile feedback so that appears to rule the blacks out. wich leaves browns, the weird hybrid mentioned above(does that actually exist?),my beloved clears(not having heard browns/blues not sure if this fits the bill), or something else completely different;). from i have gleaned from this site i would bet browns.
maybe all the keys are dip switches? with tactile feedback coming from the 'click' of broken pencils?
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:49:08
I don't think there is a noise difference between blacks and browns unless there is some minimal noise coming from the browns moving over the tactile point that I am not accounting for.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:52:17
Quote from: ripster;125670
I only said Blacks are quieter because you have to be a masochist to constantly bottom them out.

Makes sense to me.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 15 October 2009, 15:51:07
Quote from: mike2h;125663
the weird hybrid mentioned above(does that actually exist?)
I'm afraid not. :lie:
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: mike2h on Thu, 15 October 2009, 17:52:02
lol. hooked but not landed. didnt think so, but im still a complete noob so wasnt sure.
& your skills are more than adequate ripster:)
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: erricrice on Thu, 15 October 2009, 21:22:15
Quote from: ripster;125670
I only said Blacks are quieter because you have to be a masochist to constantly bottom them out.


Well, I guess I must have some weird fun to have in the bed tonight, apparently I like inflicting pain!  lol
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: BigWopHH on Fri, 16 October 2009, 14:34:29
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but I have confirmation that Cherry MX Browns will be used in the silent versions of the DAS S.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 16 October 2009, 14:36:00
Quote from: BigWopHH;126137
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but I have confirmation that Cherry MX Browns will be used in the silent versions of the DAS S.

Hmm...  If they got the bugs worked out, I might just get one of these.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 16 October 2009, 14:47:55
because it's
(http://www.daskeyboard.com/images/front-view-model-s-pro-794x395.png)
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 16 October 2009, 14:48:42
Eww....gloss.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 16 October 2009, 14:49:55
Quote from: AndrewZorn;126143
because it's
Show Image
(http://www.daskeyboard.com/images/front-view-model-s-pro-794x395.png)

Where is the planet Period, exactly?

Oh noes. Webwit's reverse, reverse psychology has got to me.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 16 October 2009, 14:52:54
it is supposed to read "The best keyboard on the planet." - but then the key bounced, and sent "period" just like how sometimes you get LOL!!1one
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 16 October 2009, 15:02:22
Quote from: webwit;126141
Why not get a normal Cherry Brown board instead of one with an ugly blob, ugly name and premium price?

I do agree that it's not the easiest on the eyes and the price is on the high side, but I really like the USB hub, the volume keys and the extra lip on the front.
 
Then again, I am holding out for a metal Filco.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 16 October 2009, 15:25:58
Mine don't, either, it just provides some spacing between the wrist rest and the keys.  It's something I have been used to since my Model M days.  Keyboards without a front lip jack up my positioning for some reason.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 16 October 2009, 20:49:10
Quote from: webwit;126141
Why not get a normal Cherry Brown board instead of one with an ugly blob, ugly name and premium price?


I find it weird that they charge more for the Cherry Brown than the Cherry Blue. Maybe it's because they are not having a number of keyboards with the Cherry Brown--economies of scale.

That being said, I have to admit that they have been very good at creating a buzz around their products. The fact that they were able to create a big interest in their "blank" keys alone is a big success in my book. One of my coworkers don't know anything about keyboard, but metion that he would like a Das. He never mentioned anything about the switch, not once. I'm pretty sure many people who know the Das has not idea that there are many other good keyboards out there. They must happen have to have come across Das keyboard but never heard of Filco for example.

That being said, had I bought a Das like I wanted when  I started looking for a mechanical keyboard, I would have probably stuck with it and never bougt 7 in all :-) But, I just had to look for reviews. You guys have not idea how happy I was to find a bunch of people crazy about keyboards like me. And most of all, the abundance of reviews is a godsend for keyboard lovers.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: joneslee85 on Sun, 18 October 2009, 19:01:53
Thanks for the clearing this up. I believe with this, gaming PC won't move on to ditch the PS/2 for USB in a year or more. lolz. I am looking forward to seeing how Steve push the LightPeak technology in the next gen of Mac hardware.

Besides, do you guys know who create the trend moving to USB? Hint: the iMac G3.

Quote from: JBert;125549
Exactly. PS/2 is a wire protocol which was made for keyboards: it sends only 3 things over the wire:
-command
-key press event
-key release event

The only limit here is in buffer size (16 events) because your computer may not always be able to process the events in a timely manner.


USB on the other hand is a general purpose serial wire protocol used to connect peripherals to your PC. Different devices will use a different protocol on top of USB, for keyboards it is USB HID (Human Interface Device).

USD HID doesn't use key events, instead it uses a special kind of "data packets". Each time the keyboard is polled, it sends a table of keys which is currently held down. The computer can then figure out which keys are pressed or released by making the difference between the previous table and the current one. The limit here is the table size, but most devices are able to choose their own size. The only exception are keyboards.

When you turn on your PC, you may want to get into your BIOS setup. For this reason, USB keyboards are required to use a simplified and fixed way of talking to the PC so the BIOS doesn't need to know everything about the USB HID standard. Instead, the key table is limitted to 6 keys + modifiers.

Custom USB drivers could be made to understand a custom HID "data packet" so they contain more keys. It isn't so feasible to do though as you'll need to make one for every flavour of OS. Because of this, most vendors simply tend to use the default drivers instead and we have to live with this limitation.

I suspect there might still be a way around all this, at the risk of incompatibility with some operating systems.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 18 October 2009, 19:35:37
Step 1: improve USB driver to handle NKRO
Step 2: eliminate PS/2 forever
Step 3: come on, you all have PS/2 to USB adapters anyway
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: timw4mail on Sun, 18 October 2009, 21:05:21
I don't see what all the hurry is to get rid of PS/2 anyway... it doesn't take up much room, it's pretty easy to align correctly, and you really only need one.

So...why must EVERYTHING be USB?
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 18 October 2009, 21:14:25
it'll become universal right when we're switching to a new bus... ;)
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 18 October 2009, 21:27:22
Quote from: ripster;126773
Because it's the Universal Serial Bus?


Why don't my RS232 peripherals work with it then?
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 18 October 2009, 21:30:03
if you've seen the specs for the huge suite of complex protocols usb uses...

i think we should keep RS232 around indefinitely :)
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: joneslee85 on Tue, 20 October 2009, 17:27:53
It is CONFIRMED that the Silent version uses the Brown Cherry switch.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 October 2009, 07:46:56
I just wish they had offered the Silent model with blank keys.  If I get one, I'll have to buy another set from elitekeyboards.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 21 October 2009, 07:52:03
Quote from: itlnstln;127355
I just wish they had offered the Silent model with blank keys.  If I get one, I'll have to buy another set from elitekeyboards.

My blank keys are getting shiny already.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 October 2009, 07:58:41
It doesn't take long.  My whole 'board has a nice sheen to it already.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: ds26gte on Wed, 21 October 2009, 11:28:36
Apparently the Model S does not have a left Win key -- there is an Fn key in its place which Metadot says is not remappable.  Mac users typically map left Alt to Cmd, and left Win to Opt, so this translates to a loss of the left Opt key, which I guess is not as bad as losing the left Cmd.  In any case, Mac users of the Model S have to decide between losing either the left Opt or the left Cmd.

(Well, an alternative is to map CapsLock to Ctrl, and then map left Ctrl to either Opt or Cmd -- i.e., lose the CapsLock function completely.)
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 21 October 2009, 11:47:17
I wouldn't worry about it.  The new Magic Mouse can do everything.  It'll even type for you.  I'm suprised they're shipping the new iMacs with a keyboard.
 
 
(J/K, I'm actually kinda interested in checking out the new Magic Mouse.)
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Wed, 21 October 2009, 12:07:24
Quote from: ripster;127392
Apple users have noticed and don't sound too happy. The Das Blog comments here (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=430#comments).


I would not buy a model S either for the simple reason that the left Windows key is missing. I remap the keys under Mac when I'm on my Mac, and also uses Windows key +other key for shortcuts if I'm working on Windows, WIN+L, WIN+E, and WIN+R, WIN+Pause are the ones I use the most often.

If they were going to remove a Windows key, why not remove the right one?
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 21 October 2009, 12:15:06
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;127397
If they were going to remove a Windows key, why not remove the right one?


Better yet:
Context Menu key replaced by Fn;
Fn + Right Windows generates Context Menu.

Nothing lost, you get a free key from nowhere.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 21 October 2009, 12:24:37
For whoever is generalizing on remapping for OS X

OS X by default maps

Win -> Command
Alt -> Option
Ctrl -> Control
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: ds26gte on Wed, 21 October 2009, 12:31:42
Quote from: itlnstln;127387
I wouldn't worry about it.  The new Magic Mouse can do everything.  It'll even type for you.  I'm suprised they're shipping the new iMacs with a keyboard.
 
 
(J/K, I'm actually kinda interested in checking out the new Magic Mouse.)


Typing with a mouse has always been possible, even with a standard-issue mouse:

http://www.lakefolks.org/cnt/

I must say I completely lost interest in checking out new mice after I came across the Logitech Marble Mouse.  Haven't had the same kind of contentment-killed-curiosity epiphany when it comes to keyboards, however.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: ironcoder on Wed, 21 October 2009, 13:14:44
Quote from: itlnstln;127387
I wouldn't worry about it.  The new Magic Mouse can do everything.  It'll even type for you.  I'm suprised they're shipping the new iMacs with a keyboard.
 
 
(J/K, I'm actually kinda interested in checking out the new Magic Mouse.)


If you double click the wheel it actually buffs your Filco to a matte sheen again. It's worth buying just for that.
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: ehird on Wed, 21 October 2009, 13:58:43
What wheel? :P
Title: Lots of question in regarding of the new Das Keyboard S
Post by: ironcoder on Wed, 21 October 2009, 14:11:00
Dammit I was thinking I should actually go look at the stupid thing before I made that post...