Is it normal for the matte texture coating/finish on Filco keyboards' keys to start wearing off after a month of typical use? I was quite disappointed to find yesterday morning that the S key on my 1-month old FKBN104MC/EB already has a little spot in the center of it where the special coating seems to have worn off.
...
Now that I take a closer look, I'm starting to notice a similar spot on the right side of the spacebar.
Yes. Filco keys get shiny quite quickly; for me, I start seeing signs of wear in about 2-3 weeks. It seems to be a combination of softer ABS plastic and the already smooth surface. That said, the lettering will not wear off in the process. The printing method used on the lettering is uber-strong.
The Zero boards have non-coated keys, it'd be interesting to compare wear to a Majestouch after the same amount of usage by the same person.
Yea, this is a downside of coatings. I posted pics of my 4 year old Majestouch earlier this year that shows wearing on many keys (one of the photos is in the key wiki here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=All+About+Keys#Key_Materials_and_Key_Wear)). The speed at which it wears seems to vary quite a bit. I've seen boards that are a year old with little or no wear, and I've seen boards after a month with the wear you describe. There are many variables contributing to it, oils on your fingers, the pH of your perspiration, your fingernails, your skin, and anything you might have on your fingers as well.
I've talked to Diatec about options available, but we haven't come to a solution yet. Non-coated keys are an option that I'm working on, but I don't know if it will be standard or an accessory like the blank keycaps we already carry. The Zero boards have non-coated keys, it'd be interesting to compare wear to a Majestouch after the same amount of usage by the same person.
yeah, i wish they just left the coating off completely... looks/feels good for a month?
i will either get the blank keycap set (expensive to me) or take each key off and buff the finish away (if that is practical)
so to clarify, does it leave a 'hole' in the 'film' that you can distinctly see, or is it just more shiny at the spot? some shininess i can live with, but if it looks like a badly waxed apple, that would be bad.
well see, that's what i feared it would look like. if the key just got shiny fast from friction making the surface smoother, then fine. cheap, but still fine. this makes me want to research some chemical bath to dunk all the keys in to just remove ALL the finish all at once.
this looks like someone spayed clear coat spraypaint on the keys or something.
See my post above. It's not only the coating that rubs off, the plastic goes smooth as well.
See my post above. It's not only the coating that rubs off, the plastic goes smooth as well.right, i understand
if the key just got shiny fast from friction
dont worry, the cavalry (ripster + itlnstln?) will arrive in a moment. All concerns will be soothed away with cooing noises. If that doesnt work we can expect bigger guns to arrive.
This is the topic-that-must-not-be-mentioned, apparently. Yikes, what have you unleashed? xD
The shiny ESC key came from here. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=113972&postcount=34)
I think Filco probably needs to do it for competitive pressures too. I think Logitech, Microsoft and others go the "Secret Sauce" route.
The final factor is just the design decision they made to go with a Matte finish vs Sandpaper (IBM) or Velvet (Topre) or Grainy (Unicomp and CherryCorp). The simple fact is plastic wears down and the less texture the quicker it'll get shiny.
i meant the coating. the coating just seems like its only purpose is to look good in internet pictures, and feel good throughout the "return period". they make the blank key set on elite sound inferior for no coating, but it sounds like the way it should have been all along.
Topre costs a bit more. Like double.
That was a snarky comment Patrick :-(
having a matte texture is one thing. but even the elitekeyboards rep admits that the COATING wears off quickly. no matter how much you wash your hands. so it is a short-term effect.
...I remember seeing a post from majestouch that stated just the opposite...something like there was no noticeable key wear after a couple years of use. I'll see if I can find that post...
having a matte texture is one thing. but even the elitekeyboards rep admits that the COATING wears off quickly. no matter how much you wash your hands. so it is a short-term effect.
the topre cap texture will not ever wear 'off', because it IS the cap, but it will WEAR, and be shiny someday... but at least they use materials to avoid this.
I kinda like shiny.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4225&stc=1&d=1251852975)
From what do you have so much to escape? ;-)
I like to see the use that has been made of an object. No piece of furniture can be nicer than an old wooden family table with its old scratches, marks that keep remembrance of all the lunches and breakfeasts of good and bad days.
I think that keyboards belong to the family of the workbenches, those objects/tools made to work, to suffer and have fun, sometimes. This fair wair and tear of your keyboard is the proof that you use it. It's like the patina of time we can find in old and second-hand books: some scars, an old paper perfume and the name of the previous owner written on the front page.
Traces of human artefacts, vestiges of mankind...
no, the table you describe would not have some crappy varnish on top, peeling at the edges. it would be wood worn smooth from use.
So, has the OP been told "not to judge his filco, but to love it"? In accordance with GH's new policy of selling filco's at any cost?
I mean how dare he threaten filco sales with such a question! xD
Right? xD
I didnt read the 44 posts above, I figure they'll just piss me off.
I'm not even using the standard issue keys
The idea is to present the facts, and let people draw their own conclusions.
-Plastic is plastic, and regardless of the type or how long it takes, it will eventually go shiny. It might take a week, it might take a year, it might take five years, but it's going to happen.
To say, however, that the other 'board's keys will never go shiny would be silly.
Note that the M1 coating was defined as the inferior one.
wapkwfopyufkwpowfkeyeah that's basically the post that sums it up, without the jokes.
but the devil is in the details -- coating coming off in a month versus letters wearing off after 5 years (as on my toshiba laptop) are very, very different things, and worth differentiating between. Let alone differences between key construction itself.
Apples and oranges. The letters don't wear off on the Filco, either. This is exactly the point. The coating might come off and the plastic goes shiny, but the letters don't wear off.
I bet the caps on your Toshiba are pretty shiny, too.
spraypaint: keys look crappier after a month. years down the line there's still going to be some keys showing SOME coating, as in, still worse than just normal, even wear.
Here's my shiny spacebar (I had this in the key wiki but since it's coming up again). I can't tell where the coating has worn off. Pretty invisible transition.
And if we're gonna start QFTing all over the place (how annoying) this is the post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=125176&postcount=34) that Majestouch was responding to. Technically all he was talking about was the letters, not the shininess.
Apples and oranges. The letters don't wear off on the Filco, either. This is exactly the point. The coating might come off and the plastic goes shiny, but the letters don't wear off.
I bet the caps on your Toshiba are pretty shiny, too.
Here's my shiny spacebar (I had this in the key wiki but since it's coming up again). I can't tell where the coating has worn off. Pretty invisible transition.
I was quite disappointed to find yesterday morning that the S key on my 1-month old FKBN104MC/EB already has a little spot in the center of it where the special coating seems to have worn off.
....Now that I take a closer look, I'm starting to notice a similar spot on the right side of the spacebar.
And if we're gonna start QFTing all over the place (how annoying) this is the post that Majestouch was responding to. Technically all he was talking about was the letters, not the shininess.
I haven't had any problems with the finish on my Model F's keycaps!
*ducks for cover*
I haven't had any problems with the finish on my Model F's keycaps!
wellington, im going to have to take your advice of touching my keyboard less. i think doing this could greatly extend the life of my coating.
wellington, im going to have to take your advice of touching my keyboard less. i think doing this could greatly extend the life of my coating.
but why coat the keys
ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the age of mass production.joking aside i hate when i hear that kind of thing
if you ask me there was likely only one reason to coat the keys - to protect the printed lettering from wearing off.i could see this if they were being sneaky, and like i said, just trying to make it through the honeymoon period...
They wouldnt have to have worried about it if it was laser etched. Its decal and printed keys that come with a coating, like on my cheap laptops. They had a coating too. To protect the lettering for a little while longer.
Unfortunately they seem to have gotten the coating itself all wrong.
ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the age of mass production.
I've never had an issue (or even heard of an issue) of this kind on any of the following keyboards that i've owned: any unicomp, any ibm, any non-filco alps, any scorpius m10, any cherry, any topre, any DSI... wait a minute - basically any mechanical board i've owned so far except for filco.
psssst, but dont tell the cavalry (ripster + itlnstln) that...
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4025&stc=1&d=1251213237)
Can you laser-etch white characters onto a black keycap?
the Black AT101Ws supposedly had letter wear issues.
I thought the black AT101W's did have laser-etched keys? Regarding the wear issues, I thought the issue was that they weren't that bright to begin with. Someone on here compared a brand new black AT101W to a heavily-used one and said the letters looked the same. I don't remember where I saw that comparison though.
Maybe Welly will give you your money back?
OK, now I see it. It's the bottom edge of spacebar (sorry for the fuzzy pic but it's Wellys).Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2882&stc=1&d=1246000743)
I thought the black AT101W's did have laser-etched keys? Regarding the wear issues, I thought the issue was that they weren't that bright to begin with. Someone on here compared a brand new black AT101W to a heavily-used one and said the letters looked the same. I don't remember where I saw that comparison though.
OK, now I see it. It's the bottom edge of spacebar (sorry for the fuzzy pic but it's Wellys).
Stickers. Post is here. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=99318&postcount=58)
Now I have found stickers to be ideal for those who are concerned about key wear. Never did like the Velcro though.
Black Apple keyboards seem to have a problem too. Fanboys stick an iSkin on it. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=285084) LOL - iSkin.Show Image(http://www.iskin.com/protouch_macbook/images/common/cleanfreak.jpg)
iSkin sounds like some sort of weird Mac condom. Assuming they actually have sex, that is...
Nope - they melted around 180 to 200 deg Fahrenheit. I think Keyb_gr suspected the spacebar at least was of a different material because they tend to yellow more.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3685&stc=1&d=1249852022)
I'm pretty sure IBM keys last so long because they are so rough, not because the plastic is super duper.
Speaking of yellow, where's the Model F guy that won't ever buy Filco because of shiny keys? He must like yellow better.
i thought polycarbonate was clear
lexan is polycarbonate
speaking of yellow, where's the model f guy that won't ever buy filco because of shiny keys? He must like yellow better.
OK, just thought of the definitive test. Legos are ABS (wikipedia can't be wrong). The Rit Dye escapades all concluded that a rolling boil (212 degrees. Don't know why EuroLanders say 100, they must be WAY below sea level) results in warped IBM Model M keys.you destroy that which is closest to you so easily
So I'll toss some Legos and spare Model M keys into some boiling water and see if they react the same. I'll also do the acetone test to both.
No problem with information flow I think - lots of it in this thread.
I do object to be called a fanboy along with ItlnStln. We've both said the keys go shiny quicker than some other keyboards. He's consistently commented about it and I switched to double shot keys (more for looks and feel but whatever). And you haven't exactly been impartial.
But anybody seeing this needs to keep it in perspective and not get so spooked about the whole thing. Even the OP isn't sure whether his is getting shiny or seeing a visible ring from the coating.
BOO!Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5197&stc=1&d=1255750515)
(from an ALPS keyboard BTW).
Anyhoo - we are all Geekhackers and everybody has different criteria in what makes a keyboard great.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5191&stc=1&d=1255730837)
OK, enough picking on Welly. Now on to the Apple Fanboys.Show Image(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3296/2943834093_bf3c6644c6.jpg?v=0)
Ugh. Those silver key caps were awful. I should get a pic of my brother's old macbook pro... it's worse than that one. The current MacBook keys get shiny quickly, but at least they don't change colors.
look at that beautiful, intact lettering... it must have cost a fortune to make those!
where's the coating?
Can you laser-etch white characters onto a black keycap?
Windows fanboy calls other people fanboys. How particular.
I don't think school is going well. Welly seems stressed.
Correction, welly has just been writing a large amount of walls of text in defense of MS crap because he actually hates them, and to see him as a MS fanboy would be a blank accusation. :sing:
Here is some evidence which I could easily double that clearly proves that welly is NOT an MS fanboy. I repeat, nothing to see, please move along.
Whats up with the fanboy mudslinging, eh ? All of us have our likes and dislikes, and all of us are vocal about them to different degrees. Its just a personal opinion after all.
What is the point in expecting fair and balanced commentary from any person?
dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias :)
dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias :)
i was thinking the same thing, but at least it's still on topic to some extent
All these self-proclaimed fans don't impress me. For starters, for such a claim, you have to write at least a dozen walls of text in a single thread to defend your love. You are just wannabee-amateur fans. Fakes! There is nothing worse than fake fans. You are not leading the right, devoted livestyles, and yet you want to reap the title!
dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias :)
All these self-proclaimed fans don't impress me. For starters, for such a claim, you have to write at least a dozen walls of text in a single thread to defend your love. You are just wannabee-amateur fans. Fakes! There is nothing worse than fake fans. You are not leading the right, devoted lifestyles, and yet you want to reap the title! d2v's first assignment is therefore to live the MS natural schmergonomic keyboard life and stand up for this product.
No I did not read your walls of text.
XD
dude, i'm designing and building my own keyboard out of ibm parts
that was pretty funny though :D
Whats up with the fanboy mudslinging, eh ? All of us have our likes and dislikes, and all of us are vocal about them to different degrees. Its just a personal opinion after all.
What is the point in expecting fair and balanced commentary from any person?
Just one question welly. Do you really think anyone read your walls of text in defense of MS products? I know you invested hours into it, despite not being an MS fanboy but just for a balanced, humanitarian view, and might have some fantasies, but do you really?Last time I checked, this was a topic about Filco's and I don't see any MS product spam except for those quotes. ;-)
3. Just wanna watch the fun. These people clog up the freeways rubbernecking fatal car crashes.
(*sigh*) Is it too much to ask to stay on topic once?
this is my last word on it. I think it says it all.
>
[/youtube]
My Model F keys are starting to get shiny spots. wait...that's fried chicken grease. nevermind.
Nice Sig Welly.
Another WallOText.
I have some of my Model M keys that are getting shiny, but none are quite there yet.
Hey folks, I'm new here so please forgive some naiveté. I recently posted about my beloved mechanical switch NMB keyboards of old, which apparently used the "space invader" switches no longer made. I'm trying to find something close in a modern keyboard, so I ordered a Deck keyboard with Brown Cherrys (hasn't arrived yet); I tried a Topre Realforce 103UB (lovely board, but not my style); and I'm looking for a good board with Blue Cherrys.
Ironcoder, prepare to be unhappy.
Is it just me, or have the quality "issues" of the Filco been blown out of all proportion as of late?
i think they last indefinitely XD
btw, don't dark keys show shinyness more than light-colored keys?
Now Welly could offer to take it back and send him a new one. That would be good customer service.
Of course he should pay for the RMA shipping and the new one's shipping.
btw just to be clear, my argument here isnt even ultimately about filco's per se. Its about information flow on the site. Just in case that point has been lost, wanted to reiterate it.
Principled arguments are not welcome on this forum!
(ducks for cover)
Yes. Filco keys get shiny quite quickly; for me, I start seeing signs of wear in about 2-3 weeks. It seems to be a combination of softer ABS plastic and the already smooth surface. That said, the lettering will not wear off in the process. The printing method used on the lettering is uber-strong.
Special K's keyboard is the first time I have seen this "spraypainted" phenomenon. You are also assuming that you can see the coating. Comparing my original, coated keys to my uncoated blank keys, there is no visible difference (other than Special K's problem); they look identical. You can, however see evidence on the underside of a coated cap by some "waterspots" from the coating being sprayed on.
I'm confused. First you said:
But then you said:
If you see signs of wear after 2-3 weeks, then how is my case the first time you have seen this phenomenon? What's different about my case?
Is it just me, or have the quality "issues" of the Filco been blown out of all proportion as of late?
Principled arguments are not welcome on this forum!
my left alt is starting to get shiny, but no sign of a ring :)
yes :) opinions change, man.
i want pics, sounds, videos, and descriptions... and considerations for me to consider. then i'll make my choices and live with them :)
there are two different effects:
1. shinyness
2. the appearance of a film or coating being worn off
Does that mean they should attack others who still hold those former opinions as 'beyond the pale'?
Yeah, the key question here is whether you're seeing a perceived "Ring" around the shiny area. In other words, is the coating border transparent or not. I'm not seeing it on my spacebar but maybe it's different on the Alpha keys.
And welcome back to the post. Lol.
...and what I dont want is for these discussions to be buried. The vendors would like nothing better than that.
If I'm a consumer looking for information on this site, dont bury these discussions -- lead me to them and let them be aired.
What we saw in the last few days was attempts (by the vendor and a few fanboy gh'ers) to bury these discussions as irrelevant. (For instance narrow interpretation of the discussion as only about 'letter wear', something Ripster wanted to participate in (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=126180&postcount=74)), or pretending that anyone who cares about keywear is somehow pathalogical).
It does not happen to all boards within "a few weeks", its logical to assume loss of coating will impact letter wear on printed keyboards, its not merely a manufacturing cost issue (m10's at half the price have lasered keys), its not merely a white letters on black keys issue (m10's again are that), etc, etc -- all we've seen is a looooong string of apologetics one after another. Why? Its great if some folks arent bothered by coatwear, keywear, etc, but why would you want to pretend its 'beyond the pale' if someone does care about it? Or raises questions about the board based on it? Don't bury this discussion (in defense of your favorite vendor) is all I'm saying. Information flow, not fanboyism.
If you guys want to compete on which particular features of keyboards each of us has gotten passionate about over the last year, believe me, I can portray you as having been 'beyond the pale' too. Are you kidding? Getting passionate about different aspects of keyboards is ALL this site DOES.
But we shouldnt start controlling those criticisms and passions based on what a particular vendor would like to see us do.
These are important battles!
To the OP. I looked again at Majestouch's photo of his keyboard (see the "All About Keys" wiki) and I didn't see rings but lots of shiny spots.
Have you tried cleaning the key and putting under bright light?
I just pulled the spacebar on my keyboard and it definitely is coated but no ring next to the shiny spot. My Brown Cherry Filco also has a shiny spot (dang that Filco, somebody should complain about that!) and no ring.
Not sure why the alpha characters would be different.
Well when you look at the pic I posted on page 1, do you notice the lighter-colored region around the worn spot in the middle? Is that what you mean by a ring?
Personally I advise laser-etched keys with coating on a Unicomp Model M with extra light springs.
Here is my coated Blue Cherry spacebar again. This is as close as I can take the pic. A 1:1 shot - see the key above for reference. Interesting that it looks so shiny even though I see pits at this high magnification.
Anyhoo. No ring. Maybe your key is different or the coating reacts differently to your "precious bodily fluids".
oh come on you expect me to believe that is NOT photoshopped?
please...
pixels, shops in my time.
Everyone concerned about this should definitely buy a Das S. Doubledogdareya.
yes :) opinions change, man.
LOL - Immoral? You really are making an ass of yourself in this thread.
all i know is... i can tell people what i like and don't like at any given time, and send in pictures and descriptions of stuff i observe :)
whether the stuff i tell and show means anything... depends on what the reader makes of it.
one can analyze my opinions, but if one is going to make decisions, i'd be more comfortable with that person just looking at the evidence and coming to their own conclusions.
this is what i do, anyway :)
If so, would the Filco still be a better quality board than the new Das model s pro?
So itlnstln is saying he sees effect 1 after only 2-3 weeks, but not effect 2, whereas my pictures are more indicative of effect 2, not effect 1?
I have brown and blue cherry 104-key FILCO boards and yes, the matte finish started wearing after a month or so. This does not bother me at all, but I would say it is normal -- it happened to another guy in the office as well. So in my experience it is typical.
And I have the infamous Filco Zero (Fukka) and so far it has not been getting shiny. This also does not bother me.
there are shiny keys on all of my filco keyboards, but it doesn't bother me. my keyboards get used and abused, so wear is inevitable. that is not to say it wouldn't be nice to have keys that didn't wear as quickly. my bottom line is, as long as the functionality of the keyboard is not compromised, it won't bother me much.
what is 'normal', though, depends on perspective. i'd say for keys to become shiny in a month of regular use is normal for a $2 bundled rubber dome keyboard. and maybe it's also normal for filco keyboards. but for someone who is used to older keyboards that might take years of pounding before the keys become shiny, it might not seem so normal.
I'm kind of anxious for the blank "Filco" keys on my Scorpius to get shiny. The home row is starting to shine, when the rest follow, I think it will be a lot more aesthetically pleasing than the matte finish the keys came with.
Compared to getting the double shots from that new G81 shiny though, this is an easy task.
Oh, and I hadn't really heavily used this keyboard a week before the home row started to shine, so it really doesn't take much to make a blank Filco key shiny.
Obviously I can't say anything about the lettering, though.
Lotions and, perhaps, certain kinds of soap, food oils, etc. can all speed the shining process up. I think (heavily) textured keys, like ripster said, are out of style. This doesn't help, either, since the keys are already pretty smooth even before we put our grubby little hands on them.
Where are those POM keys for Filcos?
does anyone routinely manufacture POM double-shot keys with a Cherry interface?
I understand the interest in POM, but personally, I think that lasered keys look a lot worse when they age than double-shot. I would pay extra for double-shot POM keys, but not lasered.
I don't think they had ABS in the 1970s but maybe I'm wrong. I always thought they would be bakelite or some other wierd material.
i couldn't agree more... old-school ibm engineering is fantastic :)
Probably. Pad printing doesn't wear well on Delrin (POM). My trackball is now sliding around on Delrin bearings - tough stuff.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5273&stc=1&d=1255970650)
Hmmmm..... the tip is getting shiny.
Just did the numbers.
We need 47 posts to exceed the "Das III Typos" post count.
We CAN DO IT! YES WE CAN!
Here's a useless post from me to up the count. I was a little hesitant to post something useless like this, but it seems there's already about 20 pages of useless posts, so I don't feel so bad now.
Then again, I do have a knack for posting useless crap, anyway.
Since I usually ask stuff and itlnstln answers I figured I owed him one. Here ya go, buddy. Don't say I never done anything for ya :bounce:Thanks. They might be wrong answers, but I try my best.
All of the lasered POM cherry keys seem to have that too.
I've been saying that for a long time. Makes me a Filco Fanboy with you White Man.
Black lasering really needs to die out...it does not age very gracefully.
You are kidding here right? Right?
okay i must have missed the 'depressions in spacebar' talk
what is this
I'd be fine with all white/light-colored caps being dye-sublimated, and all of the darker colored caps being double-shot.
hmm, i'm starting to see a down side to expensive boards, for us picky people... higher expectations :-/
Insanely high expectations. I mean, so there's a dip in the spacebar. Sometimes there's a dip operating the spacebar, so it works out. :-P
Would it be nice if the keys were all perfectly made without a defect to be found? Of course. But unless it's a defect I feel in normal typing, or one I see without having to look for it... so what? Even at the prices we're paying, we aren't paying enough for perfection.
Perfection isn't affordable for Bill Gates.
I've talked to Diatec about options available, but we haven't come to a solution yet...
that space bar looks like it doesnt belong there. different color & is of-centered from other keys.
soldering gun?
I bet alcohol was involved... ;-)
Actually it fell off my work table (too much junk) but yeah. Bad Ripster.
my work table
work
Oh why not. We just exceeded the "N-key rollover test" post count. It'll take 173 more to exceed the "Favorite Switch Poll".
Blue Cherries won that BTW. I am a fanboy of the Blue Cherries.
Bwahahahah!
If you see it from the right angle, it really jumps out.
Oh why not. We just exceeded the "N-key rollover test" post count. It'll take 173 more to exceed the "Favorite Switch Poll".
Blue Cherries won that BTW. I am a fanboy of the Blue Cherries.
Bwahahahah!
The correct spelling is "fanboi" -- it's a gender-neutral term.
By the way, I quietly (!) started using my blue Cherry keyboard in my shared office, meaning to use it primarily when I was alone, which is a moderate spell of time. Haven't heard any complaints, and my coworker is not one to be shy about protesting. After a while, I asked if my keyboard was possibly too loud and offered to use a quieter board, and he said he didn't notice any difference. I guess the sound only bugs some people, or there is too much ambient noise anyway hereabouts.
I snuck in and took another photo for you. I'm afraid I left a few more prints on it too; sorry!:spy:
They could be where someone picked up the keyboard with their thumb around there. Does seem odd it won't clean off though.
Nah, it's a new keycap made from fiberglass.
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5314&d=1256196904)
I tried cleaning it with windex, nothing happened. It's either a flaw from finishing or actual wear from somebody.
Looks like the Filco palm rest (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,palm_rests&pid=fkbprb) to me.
Just to get on topic a bit you CAN try Simple Green. I just used it on the BACK of my keyboard (LOL - let's start posting pics of the BACK of the keyboard). I've noticed it does seem to make the matte finish more uniform. That's what I found worked best on vintage black keys that are starting to oxidize.
Don't scrub too hard or you WILL get a shiny spot.
Yeah guys sorry for the late reply. That is the Filco pad.
It is super nice and well thought-out but after having it for two weeks there are a couple things I would change. I would make the foam a little thicker to get some more height and I would lose the Filco embossing, it actually sits right where you put your right hand and starts hurting, it's cut deep into the leather and sharp enough to actually grind against your wrist. It looks great where it is because it's not garish or too prominent, but it bothers me enough that I turned it upside down (which is why you didn't see it in the pic.)
I do like regular el-cheapo gel pad and regular foam rests (the Filco is 40 bucks) also but I find the gel pads rip the hair off my arms and make me look funny. So far the Filco is excellent.
You're right: sometimes, the cheapest solution is the most comfortable one...
Yep. I am a firm believer in the "thick mousepad" type of wrist rests. For me, they are the perfect height for almost all keyboards and they have the perfect "softness." They give a little, but they're not too soft (like a nice butt).
itlnstln, could you give me an example (name of product/picture) of a wrist rest you consider as really comfortable (not too soft, not too firm)? I'm currently trying to find a good solution for my desk (I've never used a wrist rest, but my wrists start to hurt a bit after a day of work).
Here are some older pics of my work setup: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=68555&postcount=247. The keyboards have changed, but I still use these rests.
Thank you for the pictures, itlnstln.
Your keyboards were already nice! What kind of mouse is it near your Omnikey? I like its shape.
My mouse is the MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000. It's the best mouse I have ever used. It completely cured me of wrist pain. It's a great mouse for office work, too. It might not be the greatest for games since it has a smooth scroll wheel (which I like for office work). I really want to get into this CH trackball I just got, but I don't have scroll functionality in all my software with it, so I think I will use at home on my HTPC.
If you decide to get one, get it from Newegg. They're only around $35 there.
Oh crap, I didn't even notice that you are in Switzerland, my bad.
Don't worry, we have it worse than you do. But my Lexmarks came through without any taxes. Lucky me! (I got to pay 100 dollars tax on a 300 dollar Filco order a few weeks ago...) Plus shipping of 75 dollars I basically paid 500 dollars for 2 Filcos. I could have had two Realforce 87Us for about the same price in America!
Dang, you pay a lot to live in a bomb shelter.
Yeah but I save big-time on decor ;)
Have you looked at doing any stained concrete to spruce up the place?
If you like bunkers, Switzerland will be your paradise. They're thousands of them on the whole territory, mainly in the Alpine range (they were in fashion during the cold war), and many are now cut-rated by Swiss Army. Some of them are real masterpieces (http://www.polarinertia.com/july06/bunker01.htm)...
If you like bunkers, Switzerland will be your paradise. They're thousands of them on the whole territory, mainly in the Alpine range (they were in fashion during the cold war), and many are now cut-rated by Swiss Army. Some of them are real masterpieces (http://www.polarinertia.com/july06/bunker01.htm)...
This is correct. I have never seen effect 2. Ripster's pics are what my keys look like after about 2-3 weeks of use. .
Don't worry. I don't think you could wear off the lettering on the Filcos with anything short of a Dremel tool.
itln, with due respect, you keep saying that, but i dont know what you base it on.
my toshiba keys lasted 5 years before they wore off. Laser etched keys presumably will last longer than 5 years.
5 years is a fairly long time for painted letters and maybe filco letters will last that long. But there's still no comparison to other types of lettering.
We dont know cuz these boards are just now being bought, starting with this summer. In five years would you be really surprised to have geekhackers report their filco painted letters are finally coming off? I wouldnt. I also wouldnt be surprised if its sooner than that.
Once the matte covering is off (ie, within a few weeks on filcos), it makes sense that the painted lettering is exposed to the wear-n-tear process at that point, and is inline with our experiences on other painted-on letters on other keyboards.
To say anything else is, I think, wishful thinking, since none of us have had these filcos for 5 years, and all we have to go on then, is our experience with other painted lettered keyboards.
Several members have had their 'boards quite some time (over a year at least) with no issues. Ripster wrote a thread on various keycaps (I think it's in the wiki now) where he notes the different process used to print the caps (and what it takes to damage it). There was another thread on making the Filco more "Otaku" where the OP could not remove the printing (done by the same process) without damaging his 'board. It's not your regular silk screening process. Hell, to be honest, I have never worn off silk screen letters on any keyboard I have ever owned, so, really, I don't think it's too bad of a process, anyway.
Man, I'm still puzzling over where your bomb shelter is. Are you one of those guys holding his finger over the button that launches thousands of nukes?
Don't expect your filco keycaps to look like new forever, if you are ok with worn appearing keycaps like I am, it is a non-issue.
Yeah, PBT or POM would be cool.
ItlnStln - you realize we might lose our Fanboy membership for our recent posts?
Fingernail must hit that spot on the N key but it's unacceptable for a keyboard as expensive as Filcos.
This is like a car's paint peeling off at 3k miles.
the spot on the n key is not due to normal wear. something struck it, and it was no finger.
I don't have any. Ask your GF.
As far as I'm concerned - if you're looking at the keycaps, you are doing it wrong...
Pictures taken from a Made in Taiwan Majestouch FKBN104M/EB S/N 09030020 after 7 months:
Yeah, they're ALL like that. But to see it you have to take a flashlight and then look at the BACK of the keys. Only a true Geekhacker would do that. Like the people that complain about the back of Unicomp keys.
what did you do to the N key?
Show Image(http://www.moregraphics.nl/temp/Filco/ASEwear.jpg)
Here you have the same problem that, after a few PMs, the OP (of this 400 post thread) and I concluded the most likely scenario was fingernail abrasion of the keycap coating.
I'm putting my money on the case that hotswank, or whoever is using this board, plays games with ESDF and uses their left pinky on A, which would account for the coating wear right of center (you only have 1 tendon connecting your ring and pinky fingers, so they naturally pull together during movement). The OP had wear of the same appearance, but dead center on S, and had admitted to using WASD, in which case his middle finger fingernail contacted S in a perpendicular fashion as he moved between S and W (back and forward). Any key cap is going to get some abuse this way, but the coating on FILCOs presents a problem, I do not disagree.Show Image(http://www.moregraphics.nl/temp/Filco/Nwear.jpg)
Did someone key your keycap? This looks like abuse, or aggravation of a defective cap. No comment.
hotswank, I thank you for your photos, the coating on the keycaps has been a source of problems for several customers and these photos help in discussing alternative technologies with FILCO's parent.
I do, however, take issue with what I perceive to be a derisive tone in referring to your keyboard as "Made in Taiwan." The Western world has embraced Southeast Asian labor to the point of heavy dependency. Feel free to throw out 70% of all "things" you own, and to educate yourself to repulse everything with some second or third hand connection to Southeast Asian manufacturing, then come back here and let us know if you can still get by. In my experience, the manufacturing of consumer products in America and many European countries doesn't fare any better on the average, so you might as well put yourself down as well.
I'm putting my money on the case that hotswank, or whoever is using this board, plays games with ESDF and uses their left pinky on A
I do, however, take issue with what I perceive to be a derisive tone in referring to your keyboard as "Made in Taiwan."
Having no keycaps?
put your fingers on home row
move D finger up slightly to catch the edge of E
overcome your inadequacies (or stop biting your nails)
ive barely used mine
and im trading it for a blue cherry one now actually
my hhkb spacebar has too little contact area (sharp edge) to wear, only reason i wont flip it around
my thumb might get shiny though
i think you threw the wife part in there. its okay to like pink.
The M13's keycaps put any Filco nightmare pic I've seen to shame. And this is a good condition Brian O' Neill one!
Great keyboard though.
Unicomp version of M4 (which I think is how the M13 is printed)at first i thought you were showing pictures of the unicomp, then the filco, but when i read the next one i know you were talking about the unicomp
60x (the Filco lettering is kinda small)
I've been using my M13 daily for around a year now, and I haven't seen any evidence of wear whatsoever. Initially I was worried (severely, I might add) due to several keys appearing to have significantly lighter legends, but after a year of constant abuse I don't see any difference.
I'm just saying the ring is grey. Not the plastic underneath.
Keep typing and it will go black again.
Good thing you have a sense of humor. Nice shiny spacebars.
Where's Welly?
6 or 7 months into using mine, about 8 hours daily:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/9Nta5.jpg)
Not impressed, Filco.
I don't have any of the other phenomena such as the coating coming off in circles but I'm losing the actual print! See "E", "D", "C".. V is also losing its tail slowly. Few more weeks and D and E are most likely entirely blank.
Give me two more years and I'll start selling otaku keycaps again! Not quite nanu-tier yet, but I'm getting there.
Thick Cherry DoubleShots FTW!
Although my formally NIB keys are shiny now. At least my metal ESC key remains the same. Damn Plastic!Show Image(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5203861325_95efc61984_z.jpg)
Well, this is a Key Wear rant thread.......
Only one solution.
DON'T PANIC!Show Image(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1215/5169637412_b4216b51dc_z.jpg)
Very classy. Insult the geekhack community, and then request they boost your ego. All in one post. Most impressive.
You should read the entire thread.
It gets better.
Wha!?
Is that yours? How long you had it?
I bet it's minging under the caps as well.
Brings a different perspective.
That is truly making me ill...
LOL @ F5, A, E, S, M, N
.. it's used on a daily basis in a 24/7 basis in a health care setting...
Where is that health care thingy?