Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 31 August 2015, 22:12:07
Welcome to the 3rd installment of the Out of the Vault Fallout-inspired SA novelty keycaps!
Order Form (On Hold)
Cost:
Even though keycaps are segmented in their respective sets, all keycaps will be $2 each. This is to ensure all keycaps get made. Once group buy is finished, during the invoicing phase, the price per keycap will likely be reduced to an average cost per cap shown on your invoice. This group buy is for fans, by fans. This is simply our fan art that we wish to share with the rest of the wasteland.
Terms and Conditions:
***Important Update: Group Buy has been extended indefinitely!
Orders are currently on hold until we hear word from the owners of the Nuka Cola trademark.
I will do my very best to show order results as we go along, and to update the amount of expected orders for keycaps per style so that we can all see where we are.
***Important Update: If you want to alter an existing order please fill out the form again for ALL items you want. Any previous version of your order will be ignored/deleted prior to invoicing at the end.
Shipping:
Shipping is billed per order based on destination and total weight, and should be at least $4 but no more than $12 (this would an insane amount of keycaps mind you). All items will be shipped using United States Postal Service, and International orders are not only allowed but are encouraged. Average cost to ship Internationally for 15 keycaps is $8.
We will not be liable for orders lost or damaged by USPS/international postal services.
[/size]
Photo for Reference:
(http://i.imgur.com/IHEONlgm.jpg)
SA Row 3
SA Row 3 Core Set (Note: Red used for Lucky 38 will be same as Nuka Cola): $18
(http://i.imgur.com/vAS0vbL.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zMJdpHz.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Ix7YxEs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/HcPvmqP.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Vwqb2DM.png) (http://i.imgur.com/XAOIjJd.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/R3OrSk0.png) (http://i.imgur.com/OyFhDpl.png) (http://i.imgur.com/MNtQVNl.png)
SA Row 3 Wasteland Wares Set: $12
(http://i.imgur.com/Gp5c6jX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/A8XmPeT.png) (http://i.imgur.com/8s9JEL5.png) (http://i.imgur.com/xNALShq.png) (http://i.imgur.com/U92zHuD.png) (http://i.imgur.com/7szHgG1.png)
SA Row 3 Irradiated Travels Set: $10
(http://i.imgur.com/GzZEgzJ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/OnnWb3Q.png) (http://i.imgur.com/w8FMSCq.png) (http://i.imgur.com/VtXS3QX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zSk0JUe.png)
SA Row 3 Nuka Cola Six Pack Set: $12
(http://i.imgur.com/NQTZKc6.png) (http://i.imgur.com/nwyvBzw.png) (http://i.imgur.com/tYpmGXt.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/ioiyVyF.png) (http://i.imgur.com/SVFbxnW.png) (http://i.imgur.com/KlMHrgv.png)
SA Row 1
SA Row 1 Core Set: $12
(http://i.imgur.com/vAS0vbL.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zMJdpHz.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Ix7YxEs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/HcPvmqP.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Vwqb2DM.png) (http://i.imgur.com/XAOIjJd.png)
SA Row 1 Junktown Novelties Set: $10
(http://i.imgur.com/kOTIkN4.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Um7EcnM.png) (http://i.imgur.com/6d8NPCv.png) (http://i.imgur.com/YJr7gac.png) (http://i.imgur.com/dGGDxkF.png)
SA Row 1 Radiation Journey Set: $10
(http://i.imgur.com/GzZEgzJ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/OnnWb3Q.png) (http://i.imgur.com/w8FMSCq.png) (http://i.imgur.com/VtXS3QX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zSk0JUe.png)
Order Status Per Set –
74 = SA Row 3 Core Set
35 = SA Row 3 Wasteland Wares Set
56 = SA Row 3 Irradiated Travels Set
69 = SA Row 3 Nuka Cola Six Pack Set
76 = SA Row 1 Core Set
89 = SA Row 1 Junktown Novelties Set
57 = SA Row 1 Radiation Journey Set
Guerilla Marketing Invitation:
If you like this set feel free to share a link to either the group buy form, or this forum post with everyone you know whether on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. Any and all support is greatly appreciated!
Code for Series III Banner:
Code: [Select]
[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74928.0][img width=640 height=103]http://i.imgur.com/GtKAuBu.png[/img][/url](This Group Buy is a presentation of 00Keys, and is in no way affiliated with Mechanical Keyboards, Inc.)
Special thanks to Mogo [Veteran Graphics Guru of 00Keys] for helping with the mockups, and such an awesome sig banner! Special thanks to harlw [Newest Member of 00Keys] for the OP banner! Also, thanks to ramuklanuk for assisting with inquiry to Bethesda! [/size]
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 07:24:21
Post by: donpark on Tue, 01 September 2015, 07:41:40
don't know if these will fit in stlye-wise with the carbon SA set.
Post by: wangbwhz on Tue, 01 September 2015, 07:54:31
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 01 September 2015, 07:55:40
Post by: Data on Tue, 01 September 2015, 08:41:03
Ordered.
Post by: LechnerDE on Tue, 01 September 2015, 08:56:36
This would make international shipping worthwhile :thumb:
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 09:02:04
Would it be possible to add a switch opening tool to the order?
This would make international shipping worthwhile :thumb:
This and all GBs are not affiliated with MK. (Please see OP) I do not carry my own stock of MK products. Sorry.
Post by: LechnerDE on Tue, 01 September 2015, 09:05:42
Too bad though :(
Post by: linkshine on Tue, 01 September 2015, 09:16:41
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 09:37:51
Justin, if I order these now, can I pay the invoice on Friday? (pay day)
Please see OP. Invoicing will not commence until the 16th after this GB is over...
Post by: TheMalacoda on Tue, 01 September 2015, 09:38:35
Post by: E3E on Tue, 01 September 2015, 09:57:37
I'd buy them all, but I have to be a bit frugal for now. :thumb: So only what I need is being bought. :)
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 10:10:29
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 01 September 2015, 11:17:21
Banner added to sig :thumb:
Current thread that's up on reddit, if you wish to give it an upvote for visibility: https://redd.it/3j8fvm :thumb:
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 01 September 2015, 11:46:17
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:13:30
I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Yes : https://ctrlalt.io/buys/sa-retro
The brown (TBN) row 3 is the 'true retro' color. The lime (VAV) and burgundy (RBC) row 1s are modifier colors.
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:17:14
I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Brown Row 3 Wasteland Wares is to match SA Retro.
Burgundy and Lime Green in Row 1 Junktown Novelties are also there to match SA Retro set.
Post by: techmattr on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:21:13
Post by: csnickba on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:27:15
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:30:38
Form submitted. Also posted to Reddit.
Thanks!
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:31:07
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 01 September 2015, 12:39:40
I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Brown Row 3 Wasteland Wares is to match SA Retro.
Burgundy and Lime Green in Row 1 Junktown Novelties are also there to match SA Retro set.
Thanks. What was the reason for row 3? Seems strange for a fully sculpted profile set.
Post by: T0mb3ry on Tue, 01 September 2015, 13:40:27
Post by: T0mb3ry on Tue, 01 September 2015, 13:41:38
hmm...
don't know if these will fit in stlye-wise with the carbon SA set.
Oh yes it will :D take junktown!
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 14:08:25
I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Brown Row 3 Wasteland Wares is to match SA Retro.
Burgundy and Lime Green in Row 1 Junktown Novelties are also there to match SA Retro set.
Thanks. What was the reason for row 3? Seems strange for a fully sculpted profile set.
Because Row 3 needs some love too, even in a fully sculpted set. It is also brown since
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 14:21:34
I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Brown Row 3 Wasteland Wares is to match SA Retro.
Burgundy and Lime Green in Row 1 Junktown Novelties are also there to match SA Retro set.
Thanks. What was the reason for row 3? Seems strange for a fully sculpted profile set.
What's odd: this point was never brought up in IC phase...unfortunately.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 01 September 2015, 14:48:01
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:23:32
It was mentioned: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72558.msg1806955#msg1806955
Touche, friendo: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72558.msg1806992#msg1806992
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:31:34
I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Brown Row 3 Wasteland Wares is to match SA Retro.
Burgundy and Lime Green in Row 1 Junktown Novelties are also there to match SA Retro set.
Thanks. What was the reason for row 3? Seems strange for a fully sculpted profile set.
Because Row 3 needs some love too, even in a fully sculpted set. It is also brown sincesodacola is brown.
Now I remember...I chose to put it in Row 3 since there were no Row 1 Function Row Brown keys for the either base sets in SA Retro (which would have been where I would have put it in my set, once they finally ship):
(http://i.imgur.com/BP7iyRs.png)
Also, since I am doing only Row 3 and Row 1, I didn't want to confuse people further by adding a random Rowed SA key...
Post by: zaarx on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:40:52
I Got Row 1 Core and Row 1 Junktown Novelties.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:44:48
Yeah the decision made sense to me :D Maybe should have put more context in my post, I wasn't calling out your choice, I just rushed my post :)I'm not sure if it was ever answered in the IC or if I just missed it, but is either brown Nuka Cola in the Wasteland Wares or Junktown Novelties intended to match SA Retro?
Brown Row 3 Wasteland Wares is to match SA Retro.
Burgundy and Lime Green in Row 1 Junktown Novelties are also there to match SA Retro set.
Thanks. What was the reason for row 3? Seems strange for a fully sculpted profile set.
Because Row 3 needs some love too, even in a fully sculpted set. It is also brown sincesodacola is brown.
Now I remember...I chose to put it in Row 3 since there were no Row 1 Function Row Brown keys for the either base sets in SA Retro (which would have been where I would have put it in my set, once they finally ship):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/BP7iyRs.png)
Also, since I am doing only Row 3 and Row 1, I didn't want to confuse people further by adding a random Rowed SA key...
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 01 September 2015, 16:02:18
Yeah the decision made sense to me :D Maybe should have put more context in my post, I wasn't calling out your choice, I just rushed my post :)
You're cool...
My default answer though is that I like Row 3 and I want a cola-colored Nuka Cola keycap, and SA Retro Brown was as close as I could get since there is no such thing as Brown PC (unless I was willing to shell out $600 for SP to make it special).
Post by: jerue on Tue, 01 September 2015, 16:56:16
I'll definitely be sharing this with my coworker tomorrow, he's a big Fallout fan. Good excuse to purchase a mech!
Post by: THSdrummer on Wed, 02 September 2015, 08:03:13
In for one of everything. No regrets.
Same here. I'm excited! And this way I'll have plenty of options to give my board some Fallout love :p
Post by: Phirr on Wed, 02 September 2015, 16:07:57
(http://i.imgur.com/ioiyVyF.png)
Post by: breitling on Wed, 02 September 2015, 16:29:36
Post by: Phirr on Wed, 02 September 2015, 16:51:15
Post by: 00zeRO on Wed, 02 September 2015, 17:05:15
Is the white in the SA Row 3 Nuka Cola Six Pack Set opaque?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ioiyVyF.png)
Yes. It will be White with Red Legend.
Post by: ika on Wed, 02 September 2015, 18:42:03
Post by: 00zeRO on Wed, 02 September 2015, 19:20:38
Just to clarify, the transparent caps are all white doubleshots with that perforated-looking layer behind it, right?
Yes. So, one blue trans is in each core set, 5 of the Nuka Cola Six Pack are translucent, and all Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are transparent, but with Glow in the Dark legends (second shot)
Post by: 00zeRO on Wed, 02 September 2015, 19:24:54
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Wed, 02 September 2015, 19:26:06
Should I ruin the surprise with pics that SP sent me of all the keycaps???
I want to see pictures!
Okay, I will just put these right here:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/WbtpEOc.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rfJqeeQ.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/W7mQ7YW.jpg)
These came straight from SP prior to the shipments, and I just got my email today as well. I cannot wait to see pics of the GID's from those of you who have blacklights.
It could be good to link these images in the OP ;D
Also this video showing off the GID (Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys)
Post by: 00zeRO on Wed, 02 September 2015, 21:27:41
For anyone that didn't see the Series II, I'll link this from the previous thread :cool:Should I ruin the surprise with pics that SP sent me of all the keycaps???
I want to see pictures!
Okay, I will just put these right here:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/WbtpEOc.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rfJqeeQ.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/W7mQ7YW.jpg)
These came straight from SP prior to the shipments, and I just got my email today as well. I cannot wait to see pics of the GID's from those of you who have blacklights.
It could be good to link these images in the OP ;D
Also this video showing off the GID (Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys)
That's right...I forgot about Jaccow's video. Thanks
Post by: IMBoddy on Wed, 02 September 2015, 22:30:52
Post by: tokyorock on Wed, 02 September 2015, 23:10:28
Post by: ika on Thu, 03 September 2015, 00:30:07
Post by: apolotary on Thu, 03 September 2015, 01:26:50
Also, how would a row 3 SA keycap sit along with OEM profile row 1 caps?
Nevermind, getting row 3 as planned
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 03 September 2015, 03:18:09
According to a very rough calculation (going off price points given by PMK for Series 2), the costs at a 100 MOQ price point from SP should be something like:
Row 3 Core: $8
Row 3 Wasteland: $6.50
Row 3 Irradiated: $6.30
Six pack: $7.50
Row 1 Core: $6.50
Row 1 Junktown: $5.50
Row 1 Radiation: $6.30
I'll order everything at those price points, but I certainly can't afford to get them all at $3 per cap. For a couple of caps like the Radioactive Soda DSA's it's fine, since the shipping is more than the cap cost anyway, but when we're talking about $126 vs $47 it's a different story.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 07:46:39
So, about the pricing.... Is the $3 per cap the final cost, irrespective of numbers of orders or pricing tiers from SP? Or will we be invoiced the final value after tier pricing according to how many are ordered?
According to a very rough calculation (going off price points given by PMK for Series 2), the costs at a 100 MOQ price point from SP should be something like:
Row 3 Core: $8
Row 3 Wasteland: $6.50
Row 3 Irradiated: $6.30
Six pack: $7.50
Row 1 Core: $6.50
Row 1 Junktown: $5.50
Row 1 Radiation: $6.30
I'll order everything at those price points, but I certainly can't afford to get them all at $3 per cap. For a couple of caps like the Radioactive Soda DSA's it's fine, since the shipping is more than the cap cost anyway, but when we're talking about $126 vs $47 it's a different story.
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Post by: longcat on Thu, 03 September 2015, 08:55:14
Post by: A-train on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:06:33
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:18:07
So if these aren't going to be made if they don't reach the MOQ, and we're saying they are going to be $2/cap once we reach the MOQ, wouldn't it make more sense to change the pricing in the OP to reflect the price of $2/cap?
I will...just haven't had a moment to spare to implement it
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:24:12
Post by: THSdrummer on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:25:18
So, about the pricing.... Is the $3 per cap the final cost, irrespective of numbers of orders or pricing tiers from SP? Or will we be invoiced the final value after tier pricing according to how many are ordered?
According to a very rough calculation (going off price points given by PMK for Series 2), the costs at a 100 MOQ price point from SP should be something like:
Row 3 Core: $8
Row 3 Wasteland: $6.50
Row 3 Irradiated: $6.30
Six pack: $7.50
Row 1 Core: $6.50
Row 1 Junktown: $5.50
Row 1 Radiation: $6.30
I'll order everything at those price points, but I certainly can't afford to get them all at $3 per cap. For a couple of caps like the Radioactive Soda DSA's it's fine, since the shipping is more than the cap cost anyway, but when we're talking about $126 vs $47 it's a different story.
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Oh, dang. So if we reach 100 orders of one set, it'll drop in price? I might order more if that were the case.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:41:47
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Oh, dang. So if we reach 100 orders of one set, it'll drop in price? I might order more if that were the case.
I have made the executive decision to make them $2 across the board. But the rule still stands that if a set does not reach 100 PAID orders, it will not be produced.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:43:01
In for a Junktown set. I would have liked to purchase more, but gotta watch spending right now. Looking forward to these!
Thanks for your order...I have decided to drop the price per cap to $2...
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 09:46:12
So, about the pricing.... Is the $3 per cap the final cost, irrespective of numbers of orders or pricing tiers from SP? Or will we be invoiced the final value after tier pricing according to how many are ordered?
According to a very rough calculation (going off price points given by PMK for Series 2), the costs at a 100 MOQ price point from SP should be something like:
Row 3 Core: $8
Row 3 Wasteland: $6.50
Row 3 Irradiated: $6.30
Six pack: $7.50
Row 1 Core: $6.50
Row 1 Junktown: $5.50
Row 1 Radiation: $6.30
I'll order everything at those price points, but I certainly can't afford to get them all at $3 per cap. For a couple of caps like the Radioactive Soda DSA's it's fine, since the shipping is more than the cap cost anyway, but when we're talking about $126 vs $47 it's a different story.
Based on your suggestion, I have set the price at $2 per cap across the board. If you would like to PM me about it, I can break down the pricing...suffice to say here that the PC transparent material is very expensive compared to standard ABS.
Post by: apolotary on Thu, 03 September 2015, 10:05:20
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 10:12:55
Since we have new prices, how can I edit my order? Would like to throw in a few more sets :)
This is to you and anyone else who would like to make changes:
If you want to alter an existing order please fill out the form again for ALL items you want. Any previous order will be ignored/deleted prior to invoicing at the end.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 10:15:54
Since we have new prices, how can I edit my order? Would like to throw in a few more sets :)
This is to you and anyone else who would like to make changes:
If you want to alter an existing order please fill out the form again for ALL items you want. Any previous order will be ignored/deleted prior to invoicing at the end.
OP has been updated to reflect the change in terms...
Post by: THSdrummer on Thu, 03 September 2015, 10:42:27
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Thank you so much. I really appreciate all the effort you've given to getting this GB going, as well as, the other Fallout inspired GB!
Oh, dang. So if we reach 100 orders of one set, it'll drop in price? I might order more if that were the case.
I have made the executive decision to make them $2 across the board. But the rule still stands that if a set does not reach 100 PAID orders, it will not be produced.
Post by: Data on Thu, 03 September 2015, 11:53:38
So, about the pricing.... Is the $3 per cap the final cost, irrespective of numbers of orders or pricing tiers from SP? Or will we be invoiced the final value after tier pricing according to how many are ordered?
According to a very rough calculation (going off price points given by PMK for Series 2), the costs at a 100 MOQ price point from SP should be something like:
Row 3 Core: $8
Row 3 Wasteland: $6.50
Row 3 Irradiated: $6.30
Six pack: $7.50
Row 1 Core: $6.50
Row 1 Junktown: $5.50
Row 1 Radiation: $6.30
I'll order everything at those price points, but I certainly can't afford to get them all at $3 per cap. For a couple of caps like the Radioactive Soda DSA's it's fine, since the shipping is more than the cap cost anyway, but when we're talking about $126 vs $47 it's a different story.
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Don't leave yourself short. I can only speak for myself but I want to fully account for shipping in the invoice price. If that means $3.00 or $2.65 per cap after everything shakes out, then so be it. Everybody likes to save money but even more we want to see the group buy succeed.
Post by: THSdrummer on Thu, 03 September 2015, 13:23:52
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Oh, dang. So if we reach 100 orders of one set, it'll drop in price? I might order more if that were the case.
I have made the executive decision to make them $2 across the board. But the rule still stands that if a set does not reach 100 PAID orders, it will not be produced.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate all the effort you've given to getting this GB going, as well as, the other Fallout inspired GB!
EDIT: Put my text in a quote above. Woops.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 13:24:18
So, about the pricing.... Is the $3 per cap the final cost, irrespective of numbers of orders or pricing tiers from SP? Or will we be invoiced the final value after tier pricing according to how many are ordered?
According to a very rough calculation (going off price points given by PMK for Series 2), the costs at a 100 MOQ price point from SP should be something like:
Row 3 Core: $8
Row 3 Wasteland: $6.50
Row 3 Irradiated: $6.30
Six pack: $7.50
Row 1 Core: $6.50
Row 1 Junktown: $5.50
Row 1 Radiation: $6.30
I'll order everything at those price points, but I certainly can't afford to get them all at $3 per cap. For a couple of caps like the Radioactive Soda DSA's it's fine, since the shipping is more than the cap cost anyway, but when we're talking about $126 vs $47 it's a different story.
I want to keep the pricing simple...so how's $2 a keycap once we reach 100.
Part of the reason for the higher price is to cover legend fees for the two new legends and shipping the keys to me.
(It would have been nice to have discussed this better in the IC.)
Don't leave yourself short. I can only speak for myself but I want to fully account for shipping in the invoice price. If that means $3.00 or $2.65 per cap after everything shakes out, then so be it. Everybody likes to save money but even more we want to see the group buy succeed.
Don't worry, I have the wiggle room. Now, I will not be able to discount any of them less than this, however.
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 03 September 2015, 14:19:48
I just saw a massive difference in cost to us between these sets at an apparent 100 MOQ and the prices we saw in the previous GB (which also included new legends and polycarbonate doubleshots). I have taken the legend cutting costs into account (around $50 each, really minimal compared to the total value of any of these sets at 100 orders) and in fact have used a slight overestimation on some sets, although the R3 base set calculation was off. I have no problem paying the $2 GB fee, it's a lot of effort to do this, but a little more transparency on the pricing goes a long way.
Here's a bit of my math, for those interested:
Series 2:
2 new legends cut.
Irradiated vaults, 2x PC doubleshots @100: $2.52 = $1.26 per cap (the most expensive)
Other child buys, 3x ABS @100: $2.13 = $1.07 per cap
The base set of 3x ABS and 1x PC reached the 200 point and sold for.... $3.37.
But let's just take them at the 100 MOQ point for this.
Series 3:
2 new legends cut. The cost of this is easier to absorb in larger sets, so it should have even less effect on pricing than in Series 2.
R3 core = 8x ABS and 1x PC = 8.56+1.26 = $9.82
R3 wasteland = 6x ABS = $6.42
R3 Irradiated = 5x PC = $6.30
Six pack = 5x PC + 1x ABS = $7.37
R1 core = 5x ABS + 1x PC = $6.61
R1 junktown = 5x ABS = $5.35
R1 radiation = 5x PC = $6.30
So when I see us all being charged more than double the likely cost for these (in fact almost triple) plus a GB fee, plus paying shipping ourselves (did you perhaps miss this part Data?) I just couldn't say nothing. If the difference in cost between what SP charges to make these and what we pay doesn't go to your pocket, please let us know where it does go...
A quick profit calculation assuming all sets met MOQ and we all paid $3 per cap:
Amount paid by us - cost to OP = $12600 - $4817 = $7783
Not a bad haul for a few caps. Oh wait, I forgot to add the $2 GB fee to that, but assuming people averaged ordering half the sets = $400, which pushes it up to $8183.
I don't like being ripped off and I don't like when the keyboard community in general gets ripped off, either. Let's do this again at the new "fair" $2 price point:
$8400 - $4817 = "only" $3583 plus the $400 in GB fees = $3983... pure profit in your pocket.
I can see why you want to go with a "simple price"... I don't have a problem with people getting paid for doing good work, whether it be designing, running a GB, etc, but I do have a problem when I'm paying for it without being told that it's happening or how much of my money is going to the artist / organiser. The way this IC and GB was posed it seemed that the $2 GB fee was this payment, but as you can see the major profit is from the "simple pricing".
I think you're a very good designer and these caps are very desirable, but I think you should have been a lot more open and clear about this. As it is, I feel like we've all been scammed. I somehow doubt it will cost almost $4000 for shipping from SP to you.
If any of my calculations or values are different from what you've been quoted, please correct me. I really do just want transparency here.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 15:22:31
I agree it should have been discussed and finalised in the IC instead of here.
I just saw a massive difference in cost to us between these sets at an apparent 100 MOQ and the prices we saw in the previous GB (which also included new legends and polycarbonate doubleshots). I have taken the legend cutting costs into account (around $50 each, really minimal compared to the total value of any of these sets at 100 orders) and in fact have used a slight overestimation on some sets, although the R3 base set calculation was off. I have no problem paying the $2 GB fee, it's a lot of effort to do this, but a little more transparency on the pricing goes a long way.
Here's a bit of my math, for those interested:
Series 2:
2 new legends cut.
Irradiated vaults, 2x PC doubleshots @100: $2.52 = $1.26 per cap (the most expensive)
Other child buys, 3x ABS @100: $2.13 = $1.07 per cap
The base set of 3x ABS and 1x PC reached the 200 point and sold for.... $3.37.
But let's just take them at the 100 MOQ point for this.
Series 3:
2 new legends cut. The cost of this is easier to absorb in larger sets, so it should have even less effect on pricing than in Series 2.
R3 core = 8x ABS and 1x PC = 8.56+1.26 = $9.82
R3 wasteland = 6x ABS = $6.42
R3 Irradiated = 5x PC = $6.30
Six pack = 5x PC + 1x ABS = $7.37
R1 core = 5x ABS + 1x PC = $6.61
R1 junktown = 5x ABS = $5.35
R1 radiation = 5x PC = $6.30
So when I see us all being charged more than double the likely cost for these (in fact almost triple) plus a GB fee, plus paying shipping ourselves (did you perhaps miss this part Data?) I just couldn't say nothing. If the difference in cost between what SP charges to make these and what we pay doesn't go to your pocket, please let us know where it does go...
A quick profit calculation assuming all sets met MOQ and we all paid $3 per cap:
Amount paid by us - cost to OP = $12600 - $4817 = $7783
Not a bad haul for a few caps. Oh wait, I forgot to add the $2 GB fee to that, but assuming people averaged ordering half the sets = $400, which pushes it up to $8183.
I don't like being ripped off and I don't like when the keyboard community in general gets ripped off, either. Let's do this again at the new "fair" $2 price point:
$8400 - $4817 = "only" $3583 plus the $400 in GB fees = $3983... pure profit in your pocket.
I can see why you want to go with a "simple price"... I don't have a problem with people getting paid for doing good work, whether it be designing, running a GB, etc, but I do have a problem when I'm paying for it without being told that it's happening or how much of my money is going to the artist / organiser. The way this IC and GB was posed it seemed that the $2 GB fee was this payment, but as you can see the major profit is from the "simple pricing".
I think you're a very good designer and these caps are very desirable, but I think you should have been a lot more open and clear about this. As it is, I feel like we've all been scammed. I somehow doubt it will cost almost $4000 for shipping from SP to you.
If any of my calculations or values are different from what you've been quoted, please correct me. I really do just want transparency here.
Okay, cost per keycap per color per family at 100 is $1.44 in ABS/ABS Double shot. Since there are so many colors, that makes each key color type to be $1.44 per key at 100 MOQ. Each color of the different PC/ABS caps are between $1.60 - $1.80 per cap at the 100 MOQ. When charging $2 per keycap this covers this cost. I have no problem with dropping the $2 group buy fee.
So, what would you like to pricing to be, Oobly? I am completely open to changing this so that I am not ripping anyone off, or even giving the appearance of such.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 15:25:19
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 15:44:38
Believe me, I would have much rather let PMK handle this thing from beginning to end, but they were taking too long and I know that Fallout 4 is fast approaching.
Let me see if I can crunch the numbers and see if I can get the pricing even lower for everyone...
Post by: breitling on Thu, 03 September 2015, 15:45:18
Post by: Data on Thu, 03 September 2015, 15:56:21
I want to provide as much transparency as possible because my goal here is to generate new key styles for the community at large and not lose money in the process. Costs associated with manufacturing are not as static as I would like them to be, and I am still new to all of this process.
Believe me, I would have much rather let PMK handle this thing from beginning to end, but they were taking too long and I know that Fallout 4 is fast approaching.
Let me see if I can crunch the numbers and see if I can get the pricing even lower for everyone...
Maybe I'm alone but I think it's perfectly fair the way you're doing it. The only challenge might be the 100 MOQ in a 2 weeks window. Hard to say.
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 03 September 2015, 16:24:18
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 17:17:29
I'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 17:25:57
Post by: Captain Olive on Thu, 03 September 2015, 19:41:43
:thumb:
Olive
Post by: Cameron on Thu, 03 September 2015, 21:45:18
I'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
You still cut a profit selling at $2 per cap if all of them reach 75 sales, so shouldn't that be the minimum required for them to run?
(600*0.24 =144, $54 back to you after the $90 spent on legends)
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 22:02:02
I'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
You still cut a profit selling at $2 per cap if all of them reach 75 sales, so shouldn't that be the minimum required for them to run?
(600*0.24 =144, $54 back to you after the $90 spent on legends)
This is my hope. I am not so much concerned with profit, but having enough to cover the production of all keycaps ordered.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 03 September 2015, 22:26:21
Order Status Per Set –
29 = SA Row 3 Core Set
12 = SA Row 3 Wasteland Wares Set
20 = SA Row 3 Irradiated Travels Set
24 = SA Row 3 Nuka Cola Six Pack Set
32 = SA Row 1 Core Set
38 = SA Row 1 Junktown Novelties Set
18 = SA Row 1 Radiation Journey Set
Looking good.
Post by: crovax3000 on Thu, 03 September 2015, 23:25:17
I have a problem.
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 04 September 2015, 00:47:30
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 04 September 2015, 01:32:41
MoreI'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
You still cut a profit selling at $2 per cap if all of them reach 75 sales, so shouldn't that be the minimum required for them to run?
(600*0.24 =144, $54 back to you after the $90 spent on legends)
This is my hope. I am not so much concerned with profit, but having enough to cover the production of all keycaps ordered.
Okay, would you then consider putting the profits from this towards having the Row 4 Shift moulds made? ;D In that case, I'll be happy to pay $3 per cap, as if we then hit the 100 MOQ on all kits that'd just about cover both. $2 per cap is a lot easier to swallow, but it's still allowing quite a large amount of "wiggle room". The R3 Core set calculated with the figures you've quoted still comes out at $7.37 + the cost of the PC cap, which puts it at around half the amount we're paying for it. Add the legend cost to just this kit and it's still only around $10-$11 per kit. There's not much difference between what I calculated before and what the costs are with the new breakdowns per colourway per family.
Thank you for sharing the cost breakdowns from SP.
I understand better now the complications in setting prices as the price of one kit depends on the numbers of other kits ordered that have the same colourway in the same family. I also understand that you want to get all the kits made regardless of orders and applaud you for this, but I think some description of what happens to the extra money would be nice. I also understand that in business you have to take calculated risks and it's best to base these on a lower sales expectation. As I have stated in my previous posts, I have no problem with a designer / organiser making money from a GB, as long as it's clear how the money is being made and that it's a reasonable / fair amount.
I got a bit of a shock when the calculated profit was twice the expected cost of the caps (based on previous runs of these same cap designs, the only info available to me) . A 200% markup is not what I'd call reasonable. With the new quote values and pricing I think it's much closer to being "reasonable". I'd be happier still with the $2 GB fee reinstated and the invoices sent out with the real costs. Or that the profit goes to something that helps the keycap enthusiast community.
I also know there are other businesses / vendors that run keycap GB's and are much less transparent than this, but those are for full keycap sets and it's a bigger risk for them. Also the prices are a lot closer to the real cost than what I was seeing here initially.
Also, would you consider extending this a bit? Two weeks is fine for a smaller buy like the DSA ones, but these bigger kits need some thought and planning from buyers and it may pay off to keep it running so more people notice it before it's finished.
Sorry for throwing such a big spanner in the works on this / interfering with your GB. My sense of justice was just setting off alarm bells and I had to react. I should have PM'ed you instead of dropping a bomb in the thread.
TLDR: $2 per cap is alright. If the profits are large, would you be willing to put some of it towards Row 4 Shifts?
Post by: Cameron on Fri, 04 September 2015, 01:47:18
MoreI'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
You still cut a profit selling at $2 per cap if all of them reach 75 sales, so shouldn't that be the minimum required for them to run?
(600*0.24 =144, $54 back to you after the $90 spent on legends)
This is my hope. I am not so much concerned with profit, but having enough to cover the production of all keycaps ordered.
Okay, would you then consider putting the profits from this towards having the Row 4 Shift moulds made? ;D In that case, I'll be happy to pay $3 per cap, as if we then hit the 100 MOQ on all kits that'd just about cover both. $2 per cap is a lot easier to swallow, but it's still allowing quite a large amount of "wiggle room". The R3 Core set calculated with the figures you've quoted still comes out at $7.37 + the cost of the PC cap, which puts it at around half the amount we're paying for it. Add the legend cost to just this kit and it's still only around $10-$11 per kit. There's not much difference between what I calculated before and what the costs are with the new breakdowns per colourway per family.
Thank you for sharing the cost breakdowns from SP.
I understand better now the complications in setting prices as the price of one kit depends on the numbers of other kits ordered that have the same colourway in the same family. I also understand that you want to get all the kits made regardless of orders and applaud you for this, but I think some description of what happens to the extra money would be nice. I also understand that in business you have to take calculated risks and it's best to base these on a lower sales expectation. As I have stated in my previous posts, I have no problem with a designer / organiser making money from a GB, as long as it's clear how the money is being made and that it's a reasonable / fair amount.
I got a bit of a shock when the calculated profit was twice the expected cost of the caps (based on previous runs of these same cap designs, the only info available to me) . A 200% markup is not what I'd call reasonable. With the new quote values and pricing I think it's much closer to being "reasonable". I'd be happier still with the $2 GB fee reinstated and the invoices sent out with the real costs. Or that the profit goes to something that helps the keycap enthusiast community.
I also know there are other businesses / vendors that run keycap GB's and are much less transparent than this, but those are for full keycap sets and it's a bigger risk for them. Also the prices are a lot closer to the real cost than what I was seeing here initially.
Also, would you consider extending this a bit? Two weeks is fine for a smaller buy like the DSA ones, but these bigger kits need some thought and planning from buyers and it may pay off to keep it running so more people notice it before it's finished.
Sorry for throwing such a big spanner in the works on this / interfering with your GB. My sense of justice was just setting off alarm bells and I had to react. I should have PM'ed you instead of dropping a bomb in the thread.
TLDR: $2 per cap is alright. If the profits are large, would you be willing to put some of it towards Row 4 Shifts?
The cost of row 4 shift keys is something SP would need to sort out. From what I've read, the cost of them getting a new mould for row 4 shift keys is around $90,000. The way they see it as far as I can tell is that it's not worth the investment.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 04 September 2015, 02:48:18
MoreMoreI'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
You still cut a profit selling at $2 per cap if all of them reach 75 sales, so shouldn't that be the minimum required for them to run?
(600*0.24 =144, $54 back to you after the $90 spent on legends)
This is my hope. I am not so much concerned with profit, but having enough to cover the production of all keycaps ordered.
Okay, would you then consider putting the profits from this towards having the Row 4 Shift moulds made? ;D In that case, I'll be happy to pay $3 per cap, as if we then hit the 100 MOQ on all kits that'd just about cover both. $2 per cap is a lot easier to swallow, but it's still allowing quite a large amount of "wiggle room". The R3 Core set calculated with the figures you've quoted still comes out at $7.37 + the cost of the PC cap, which puts it at around half the amount we're paying for it. Add the legend cost to just this kit and it's still only around $10-$11 per kit. There's not much difference between what I calculated before and what the costs are with the new breakdowns per colourway per family.
Thank you for sharing the cost breakdowns from SP.
I understand better now the complications in setting prices as the price of one kit depends on the numbers of other kits ordered that have the same colourway in the same family. I also understand that you want to get all the kits made regardless of orders and applaud you for this, but I think some description of what happens to the extra money would be nice. I also understand that in business you have to take calculated risks and it's best to base these on a lower sales expectation. As I have stated in my previous posts, I have no problem with a designer / organiser making money from a GB, as long as it's clear how the money is being made and that it's a reasonable / fair amount.
I got a bit of a shock when the calculated profit was twice the expected cost of the caps (based on previous runs of these same cap designs, the only info available to me) . A 200% markup is not what I'd call reasonable. With the new quote values and pricing I think it's much closer to being "reasonable". I'd be happier still with the $2 GB fee reinstated and the invoices sent out with the real costs. Or that the profit goes to something that helps the keycap enthusiast community.
I also know there are other businesses / vendors that run keycap GB's and are much less transparent than this, but those are for full keycap sets and it's a bigger risk for them. Also the prices are a lot closer to the real cost than what I was seeing here initially.
Also, would you consider extending this a bit? Two weeks is fine for a smaller buy like the DSA ones, but these bigger kits need some thought and planning from buyers and it may pay off to keep it running so more people notice it before it's finished.
Sorry for throwing such a big spanner in the works on this / interfering with your GB. My sense of justice was just setting off alarm bells and I had to react. I should have PM'ed you instead of dropping a bomb in the thread.
TLDR: $2 per cap is alright. If the profits are large, would you be willing to put some of it towards Row 4 Shifts?
The cost of row 4 shift keys is something SP would need to sort out. From what I've read, the cost of them getting a new mould for row 4 shift keys is around $90,000. The way they see it as far as I can tell is that it's not worth the investment.
Nope, it's around $4000 to $4500 per mold = $8000 to $9000. It's kind of ridiculous SP hasn't had them made themselves yet IMHO.
Post by: Data on Fri, 04 September 2015, 09:46:19
MoreMoreI'm on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster right now and may have overreacted, but my initial shock at the total price of my order made me take a deeper look at what these should cost. I remember stating in the IC that I didn't mind how the invoicing and payments go as long as the amount that leaves my account matches the keycap cost at the tier each set reaches (plus the gb fee plus shipping). It's still not clear to me how much I'll be paying for these in the end and how much I'm gving you. Is the $2 per cap the amount that I pay no matter how many get sold or will there be some adjustment according to the numbers?
What actual price has SP quoted you for each set at 100 MOQ?
$1.44 per colorway per family. Meaning that Lime/White Row 1 has its own MOQ of 100 in order for it to be at that price. It cannot combine MOQ with Burgandy/White Row 1 since they are each different colors. On the other hand, when looking at the Blue PC/GLID's, they can combine so, MOQ for them techinically would be 20 sets, but I was going to let their excess help tip everything even if any given set didn't reach MOQ. The goal is to produce all sets, and I would have made that happen regardless of MOQ within reason. For example, let's say Wasteland Wares only got 50 sets sold, according to the rules it would have to the MOQ price of 50 which is $2.43 per keycap. Below are a few of the run down lists as per Melissa from emails:
This is ABS/ABS same family (SA, DSA, etc), same color combination:
25 pcs $4.38 each
50 pcs $2.43 each
75 pcs $1.76 each
100 pcs $1.44 each
150 pcs $1.11 each
200 pcs $0.95 each
250 pcs $0.71 each
500 pcs $0.51 each
And then +45 +45 = $90 to spread across all for the two new legends...PC and GLID pricing list to follow once I find the info. Suffice to say that they are between $0.10 and $0.50 difference per keycap at the 100 MOQ pricing...but again the Irradiated Travels/Radiation Journeys are going to help even everything out in the end for the sets that don't quite make my 100 MOQ goal *fingers crossed*
What I do not want to happen is only 25 sets to sell of any given type and then have to pay $4.38 per keycap...most of which would come out of my own pocket.
I want them all to be made for everyone, but I also don't want to lose money on each keycap set if they don't reach high enough.
You still cut a profit selling at $2 per cap if all of them reach 75 sales, so shouldn't that be the minimum required for them to run?
(600*0.24 =144, $54 back to you after the $90 spent on legends)
This is my hope. I am not so much concerned with profit, but having enough to cover the production of all keycaps ordered.
Okay, would you then consider putting the profits from this towards having the Row 4 Shift moulds made? ;D In that case, I'll be happy to pay $3 per cap, as if we then hit the 100 MOQ on all kits that'd just about cover both. $2 per cap is a lot easier to swallow, but it's still allowing quite a large amount of "wiggle room". The R3 Core set calculated with the figures you've quoted still comes out at $7.37 + the cost of the PC cap, which puts it at around half the amount we're paying for it. Add the legend cost to just this kit and it's still only around $10-$11 per kit. There's not much difference between what I calculated before and what the costs are with the new breakdowns per colourway per family.
Thank you for sharing the cost breakdowns from SP.
I understand better now the complications in setting prices as the price of one kit depends on the numbers of other kits ordered that have the same colourway in the same family. I also understand that you want to get all the kits made regardless of orders and applaud you for this, but I think some description of what happens to the extra money would be nice. I also understand that in business you have to take calculated risks and it's best to base these on a lower sales expectation. As I have stated in my previous posts, I have no problem with a designer / organiser making money from a GB, as long as it's clear how the money is being made and that it's a reasonable / fair amount.
I got a bit of a shock when the calculated profit was twice the expected cost of the caps (based on previous runs of these same cap designs, the only info available to me) . A 200% markup is not what I'd call reasonable. With the new quote values and pricing I think it's much closer to being "reasonable". I'd be happier still with the $2 GB fee reinstated and the invoices sent out with the real costs. Or that the profit goes to something that helps the keycap enthusiast community.
I also know there are other businesses / vendors that run keycap GB's and are much less transparent than this, but those are for full keycap sets and it's a bigger risk for them. Also the prices are a lot closer to the real cost than what I was seeing here initially.
Also, would you consider extending this a bit? Two weeks is fine for a smaller buy like the DSA ones, but these bigger kits need some thought and planning from buyers and it may pay off to keep it running so more people notice it before it's finished.
Sorry for throwing such a big spanner in the works on this / interfering with your GB. My sense of justice was just setting off alarm bells and I had to react. I should have PM'ed you instead of dropping a bomb in the thread.
TLDR: $2 per cap is alright. If the profits are large, would you be willing to put some of it towards Row 4 Shifts?
The cost of row 4 shift keys is something SP would need to sort out. From what I've read, the cost of them getting a new mould for row 4 shift keys is around $90,000. The way they see it as far as I can tell is that it's not worth the investment.
Nope, it's around $4000 to $4500 per mold = $8000 to $9000. It's kind of ridiculous SP hasn't had them made themselves yet IMHO.
Agreed. I would not support paying for the molds at this point. They are trying to push a business expense off on their customers and that's not ethical. The demand for R4 Shifts has been there for at least the last year and the last 6-7 group buys (maybe as far back as 7bit Round 4?) -- I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. If they bit the bullet on the molds they would easily make their investment back after a few more group buys. So I don't understand the hesitation.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 04 September 2015, 11:20:57
Post by: harlw on Fri, 04 September 2015, 11:28:19
OP now updated to reflect lower pricing... :thumb:
FYI the google form still has $3/per pricing in it. As soon as this is updated I'll be doing a bit more pushing for this set around the communities.
Thanks!
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 11:53:19
I understand better now the complications in setting prices as the price of one kit depends on the numbers of other kits ordered that have the same colourway in the same family. I also understand that you want to get all the kits made regardless of orders and applaud you for this, but I think some description of what happens to the extra money would be nice. I also understand that in business you have to take calculated risks and it's best to base these on a lower sales expectation. As I have stated in my previous posts, I have no problem with a designer / organiser making money from a GB, as long as it's clear how the money is being made and that it's a reasonable / fair amount.
I got a bit of a shock when the calculated profit was twice the expected cost of the caps (based on previous runs of these same cap designs, the only info available to me) . A 200% markup is not what I'd call reasonable. With the new quote values and pricing I think it's much closer to being "reasonable". I'd be happier still with the $2 GB fee reinstated and the invoices sent out with the real costs. Or that the profit goes to something that helps the keycap enthusiast community.
I also know there are other businesses / vendors that run keycap GB's and are much less transparent than this, but those are for full keycap sets and it's a bigger risk for them. Also the prices are a lot closer to the real cost than what I was seeing here initially.
Also, would you consider extending this a bit? Two weeks is fine for a smaller buy like the DSA ones, but these bigger kits need some thought and planning from buyers and it may pay off to keep it running so more people notice it before it's finished.
Sorry for throwing such a big spanner in the works on this / interfering with your GB. My sense of justice was just setting off alarm bells and I had to react. I should have PM'ed you instead of dropping a bomb in the thread.
TLDR: $2 per cap is alright. If the profits are large, would you be willing to put some of it towards Row 4 Shifts?
I will extend the Group Buy to the end of September. Not sure how large the profits will be once the numbers come in, but my plan is to donate to GH (as I hear it needs money), pay the other member/contributor of 00Keys, Mogo a stipend for his help with all my designs thus far. Should there be a sizable amount left, I may contribute to the Trump campaign, jk. Seriously, the money would likely go toward future group buy planning, packaging, and etc.
As I have stated from the start, I am doing all of this independently and apart from Mechanical Keyboards, Inc. When it comes to business and Group Buys, I am a newb.
As for assisting with Row 4 Shifts, this is not something that I feel would be my place to do since Signature Plastics is in the business of working with plastic and setting the molds. They should be the one to do all the allocation of such equipment.
The $2 per key cost still stands, but I will be flexible to the MOQ numbers as long as I don't have to pay out anything (as in there being no profit, but loss). And there will remain no GB fee per order.
This will likely be the last Group Buy of this size I will ever put my hand to do since I have clearly gotten in way over my head with regards to numbers, attitudes, and ineptitudes (purely on my part).
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 11:55:30
OP now updated to reflect lower pricing... :thumb:
FYI the google form still has $3/per pricing in it. As soon as this is updated I'll be doing a bit more pushing for this set around the communities.
Thanks!
Thank you for pointing this out, I will get right on this...for sho
Post by: dutC4 on Fri, 04 September 2015, 12:16:14
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 12:41:41
The order from still has them at $3 per cap. I'm happy to order these at the $2 level since I think it's a reasonable price for them and I think you should still meet your goals.
OP now updated to reflect lower pricing... :thumb:
FYI the google form still has $3/per pricing in it. As soon as this is updated I'll be doing a bit more pushing for this set around the communities.
Thanks!
Form has been updated! Also OP now shows new cut off date and MOQ restrictions have been lifted and are now simply goals!
We are betting the farm!
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:04:44
I understand better now the complications in setting prices as the price of one kit depends on the numbers of other kits ordered that have the same colourway in the same family. I also understand that you want to get all the kits made regardless of orders and applaud you for this, but I think some description of what happens to the extra money would be nice. I also understand that in business you have to take calculated risks and it's best to base these on a lower sales expectation. As I have stated in my previous posts, I have no problem with a designer / organiser making money from a GB, as long as it's clear how the money is being made and that it's a reasonable / fair amount.
I got a bit of a shock when the calculated profit was twice the expected cost of the caps (based on previous runs of these same cap designs, the only info available to me) . A 200% markup is not what I'd call reasonable. With the new quote values and pricing I think it's much closer to being "reasonable". I'd be happier still with the $2 GB fee reinstated and the invoices sent out with the real costs. Or that the profit goes to something that helps the keycap enthusiast community.
I also know there are other businesses / vendors that run keycap GB's and are much less transparent than this, but those are for full keycap sets and it's a bigger risk for them. Also the prices are a lot closer to the real cost than what I was seeing here initially.
Also, would you consider extending this a bit? Two weeks is fine for a smaller buy like the DSA ones, but these bigger kits need some thought and planning from buyers and it may pay off to keep it running so more people notice it before it's finished.
Sorry for throwing such a big spanner in the works on this / interfering with your GB. My sense of justice was just setting off alarm bells and I had to react. I should have PM'ed you instead of dropping a bomb in the thread.
TLDR: $2 per cap is alright. If the profits are large, would you be willing to put some of it towards Row 4 Shifts?
I will extend the Group Buy to the end of September. Not sure how large the profits will be once the numbers come in, but my plan is to donate to GH (as I hear it needs money), pay the other member/contributor of 00Keys, Mogo a stipend for his help with all my designs thus far. Should there be a sizable amount left, I may contribute to the Trump campaign, jk. Seriously, the money would likely go toward future group buy planning, packaging, and etc.
As I have stated from the start, I am doing all of this independently and apart from Mechanical Keyboards, Inc. When it comes to business and Group Buys, I am a newb.
As for assisting with Row 4 Shifts, this is not something that I feel would be my place to do since Signature Plastics is in the business of working with plastic and setting the molds. They should be the one to do all the allocation of such equipment.
The $2 per key cost still stands, but I will be flexible to the MOQ numbers as long as I don't have to pay out anything (as in there being no profit, but loss). And there will remain no GB fee per order.
This will likely be the last Group Buy of this size I will ever put my hand to do since I have clearly gotten in way over my head with regards to numbers, attitudes, and ineptitudes (purely on my part).
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is wonderful info, great to hear it (except for the not doing more GB's part). This transparency is precisely what I've been after. I am very happy to help with all of that as I feel it's all deserving of getting money. We definitely don't want you to make a loss on this. I'll be placing my order ASAP.
I apologise again for the way I pursued it, though, next time I will PM first.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:11:11
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is wonderful info, great to hear it (except for the not doing more GB's part). This transparency is precisely what I've been after. I am very happy to help with all of that as I feel it's all deserving of getting money. We definitely don't want you to make a loss on this. I'll be placing my order ASAP.
I apologise again for the way I pursued it, though, next time I will PM first.
I said a 'GB of this size.' I will do more Group Buys in the future, but I will employ the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Small, Silly).
This is the kind of feedback I would have liked during the planning process to avoid confusion out there, but it is all fine and dandy.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:13:40
Post by: Data on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:13:44
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:14:25
KISS Principle has never failed me. ;D
I guess I just want to please EveryonE
Post by: Data on Fri, 04 September 2015, 13:16:54
KISS Principle has never failed me. ;D
I guess I just want to please EveryonE
(http://i.imgur.com/sFgykij.gif)
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 14:05:40
That guy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000198/?ref_=nv_sr_1) is a man of a thousand faces...KISS Principle has never failed me. ;D
I guess I just want to please EveryonEShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/sFgykij.gif)
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 04 September 2015, 14:25:04
Thanks a whole bunch... :thumb:
Post by: harlw on Fri, 04 September 2015, 14:28:59
OP updated with new banner generously provided by harlw!
Thanks a whole bunch... :thumb:
*nods*
Post by: Data on Fri, 04 September 2015, 14:37:51
OP updated with new banner generously provided by harlw!
Thanks a whole bunch... :thumb:
*nods*
Killer job on the graphics.
Post by: harlw on Fri, 04 September 2015, 14:44:14
OP updated with new banner generously provided by harlw!
Thanks a whole bunch... :thumb:
*nods*
Killer job on the graphics.
Thanks! OP just updated again with a newer version :D
Post by: pexon on Sat, 05 September 2015, 14:05:35
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 05 September 2015, 19:21:38
Thank you for all your support and participation already!
:eek:
Post by: harlw on Sat, 05 September 2015, 19:31:29
Updated the numbers...looking great!
Thank you for all your support and participation already!
:o
Nice! We're rockin and rollin.
I will keep getting the word out - I want every set in my mailbox!
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sat, 05 September 2015, 20:36:22
Updated the numbers...looking great!Nice! We're rockin and rollin.
Thank you for all your support and participation already!
:o
I will keep getting the word out - I want every set in my mailbox!
Same! Numbers are looking nice. C'mon Wasteland Wares ;D
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 05 September 2015, 22:51:41
Post by: 00zeRO on Sun, 06 September 2015, 00:15:41
(http://i.imgur.com/tKWlyZG.jpg)
I did not realize this Group Buy contained so many keys... ;D
Post by: Cameron on Sun, 06 September 2015, 07:52:23
Post by: dutC4 on Sun, 06 September 2015, 08:16:09
the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(Yes but at least OAS and OBC are very close
(http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/absorange.JPG)
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 06 September 2015, 10:35:05
the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(
Sadly they are the colors from the Hack'd By Geeks set: https://ctrlalt.io/buys/hack-d-by-geeks
EDIT: Sad for you, great for me ;)
Post by: 00zeRO on Sun, 06 September 2015, 16:24:50
the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(
Sadly they are the colors from the Hack'd By Geeks set: https://ctrlalt.io/buys/hack-d-by-geeks
EDIT: Sad for you, great for me ;)
Does Carbon even exist yet?
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 06 September 2015, 16:25:56
Nope. The MassDrop GB ended, but I doubt any sets will be produced for a while.the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(
Sadly they are the colors from the Hack'd By Geeks set: https://ctrlalt.io/buys/hack-d-by-geeks
EDIT: Sad for you, great for me ;)
Does Carbon even exist yet?
Post by: 00zeRO on Sun, 06 September 2015, 16:53:16
Nope. The MassDrop GB ended, but I doubt any sets will be produced for a while.the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(
Sadly they are the colors from the Hack'd By Geeks set: https://ctrlalt.io/buys/hack-d-by-geeks
EDIT: Sad for you, great for me ;)
Does Carbon even exist yet?
What I thought. I only try to match colors of what is done and in production now...as in SA Retro
Post by: BrainFlush on Sun, 06 September 2015, 18:29:30
Post by: E3E on Sun, 06 September 2015, 19:35:26
Aww yeah! I'm so looking forward to this.
This is a mockup of what I have planned until the 75% drop is released.
(http://puu.sh/k2ucX/40837c8945.jpg)
The only thing that won't exactly match is the Nuka Cola esc and the glow in the dark top row on the pad, but I don't care much about that. :P It'll be fine. I can always switch them out if it bothers me.
Strangely enough, Jukebox was missing a R3 key on both the base set and the number pad. It has the option for a 1u key to replace the long + key, but gives no option to fulfil the second half of that + key, haha. Also no options for filling the long enter key, but I've got that covered. :thumb: I pretty much want as many keys as possible on my Lightpad. ^-^
Post by: Cameron on Sun, 06 September 2015, 20:14:03
the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(Yes but at least OAS and OBC are very closeShow Image(http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/absorange.JPG)
(http://puu.sh/k2vRd/6f5e364479.jpg)
GX is a fair bit darker than GQM though
Post by: E3E on Sun, 06 September 2015, 20:22:07
Post by: 00zeRO on Sun, 06 September 2015, 20:45:19
Post by: E3E on Sun, 06 September 2015, 20:53:25
I thought for sure the Wasteland Wares set would be doing better than this...
Considering it matches popular Row 3 sets like Nuclear Data and 1976, it is kind of strange that it's not getting much love. Where are the Nuke lovers and 76 fans? Do they know about this drop?
Post by: fabian101 on Sun, 06 September 2015, 22:40:06
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 07 September 2015, 02:21:40
Nope. The MassDrop GB ended, but I doubt any sets will be produced for a while.the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(
Sadly they are the colors from the Hack'd By Geeks set: https://ctrlalt.io/buys/hack-d-by-geeks
EDIT: Sad for you, great for me ;)
Does Carbon even exist yet?
What I thought. I only try to match colors of what is done and in production now...as in SA Retro
Carbon was mentioned in the IC and had finished running on Massdrop before this GB started. It also sold more than 600 base sets, so it's a pity this doesn't have matching colours as I think this would sell more sets if it did. It's behind schedule on production, though, due to the massive number of SA sets SP is producing right now.
Oddly enough, none of these caps perfectly match either of my two favourite sets (Penumbra and Carbon), but the orange is close enough, so I may use the orange Nuka Cola on Carbon.
Well, won't stop me ordering them anyway, since I do own Nuclear Data, 1976, Jukebox, Hack'd by Geeks, Retro, etc...
You can't please everyone. If you try too hard, you end up running round in circles.
Post by: zaarx on Mon, 07 September 2015, 07:08:01
Nope. The MassDrop GB ended, but I doubt any sets will be produced for a while.the ones i thought were the same as Carbon SA aren't quite the same after all :(
Sadly they are the colors from the Hack'd By Geeks set: https://ctrlalt.io/buys/hack-d-by-geeks
EDIT: Sad for you, great for me ;)
Does Carbon even exist yet?
What I thought. I only try to match colors of what is done and in production now...as in SA Retro
Carbon was mentioned in the IC and had finished running on Massdrop before this GB started. It also sold more than 600 base sets, so it's a pity this doesn't have matching colours as I think this would sell more sets if it did. It's behind schedule on production, though, due to the massive number of SA sets SP is producing right now.
Oddly enough, none of these caps perfectly match either of my two favourite sets (Penumbra and Carbon), but the orange is close enough, so I may use the orange Nuka Cola on Carbon.
Well, won't stop me ordering them anyway, since I do own Nuclear Data, 1976, Jukebox, Hack'd by Geeks, Retro, etc...
You can't please everyone. If you try too hard, you end up running round in circles.
I'll take the gamble anyday that these will match Carbon :)
Post by: Cameron on Mon, 07 September 2015, 08:43:54
By fair, you must mean really fair, because they are close enough in my opinion for things to work with the Carbon set.
Its much darker, its not close enough for me. I'll notice the difference and it'll make me angry if it's on my board
Post by: E3E on Mon, 07 September 2015, 14:31:33
By fair, you must mean really fair, because they are close enough in my opinion for things to work with the Carbon set.
Its much darker, its not close enough for me. I'll notice the difference and it'll make me angry if it's on my board
Haha, damn. Fair enough! Yeah, I wasn't sure if the novelties were for HBG or Carbon when saw those colorways. Obviously, with Carbon happening, I figured it'd be for Carbon, but I also remembered HBG too.
Post by: T0mb3ry on Mon, 07 September 2015, 15:21:04
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 07 September 2015, 18:32:09
Why not to add just two additional keys to junktown kit in Carbon Colors? So everyone is going to be happy. I am ok with paying more. It will just make the kit approx 6$ more expensive :).
edit: No
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 07 September 2015, 19:40:09
The numbers are looking good.
Post by: BlueTirrick on Tue, 08 September 2015, 12:22:45
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 08 September 2015, 12:31:04
How would these fit on a poker 2?
Very carefully...
They may seem a bit out of place unless you have a set of SA profile keys to match key height.
Post by: BlueTirrick on Tue, 08 September 2015, 13:31:33
How would these fit on a poker 2?
Very carefully...
They may seem a bit out of place unless you have a set of SA profile keys to match key height.
Ahh not for me then :(
Post by: zaarx on Tue, 08 September 2015, 13:35:21
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 08 September 2015, 17:19:02
I reordered, had to get a couple more sets :)
PM'd
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 09 September 2015, 03:46:58
Ordered them all.
Post by: apolotary on Wed, 09 September 2015, 06:50:14
Post by: LechnerDE on Wed, 09 September 2015, 08:38:36
Post by: 00zeRO on Wed, 09 September 2015, 10:35:25
I'd like to combine orders with fellow Germans to split shipping costs. Message me if you are interested :thumb:
PM'd :p
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 09:41:56
I am going to contact Bethsoft/ZeniMax and plead with them for this Fan Art use. I will do my very best to state our case and goal here, and that I am not intending to make money off of this and that I am willing to either give them all profits, or donate them to a charity of Bethesda's choice. My hope is that they will give us a nod for this to go on. I would even be willing to grant them full rights to all the keycap designs if only they can be made for all to enjoy.
I plan to provide to Bethesda full disclosure, laying all cards on the table in hopes that they will be receiving of what we aim to do here.
What I need from you all is either some form of electronic petition, maybe I can concoct a google form for this, or for you to reach out to them on behalf of this Group Buy.
By the way, the only legend currently being disputed by SP is the Nuka Cola one, but I intend to gain full support from ZeniMax to use the Lucky 38 as well.
Thoughts?
Post by: 9jack9 on Thu, 10 September 2015, 09:49:38
Calling on all Fallout Fans...it has come to my attention that I will need to provide SP with a letter of permission from Bethesda/ZeniMax in order to proceed with the Nuka Cola keycap legend. SP notified me that the DSA GB will be the last Nuka Cola use until they receive a letter stating that I have the Creator's permission to use the design.
I am going to contact Bethsoft/ZeniMax and plead with them for this Fan Art use. I will do my very best to state our case and goal here, and that I am not intending to make money off of this and that I am willing to either give them all profits, or donate them to a charity of Bethesda's choice. My hope is that they will give us a nod for this to go on. I would even be willing to grant them full rights to all the keycap designs if only they can be made for all to enjoy.
I plan to provide to Bethesda full disclosure, laying all cards on the table in hopes that they will be receiving of what we aim to do here.
What I need from you all is either some form of electronic petition, maybe I can concoct a google form for this, or for you to reach out to them on behalf of this Group Buy.
By the way, the only legend currently being disputed by SP is the Nuka Cola one, but I intend to gain full support from ZeniMax to use the Lucky 38 as well.
Thoughts?
Well, I can definitely give a shout out on twitter, if you tweet at them, post a link to it here.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 09:51:18
Well, I can definitely give a shout out on twitter, if you tweet at them, post a link to it here.
Thanks
Post by: Data on Thu, 10 September 2015, 10:01:06
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 12:10:53
Approach Bethesda first. They're more likely to be interested in supporting something like this, especially if it ties into Fallout 4. I don't think they'll have a problem with it.
I will try to email them a letter sometime today...busy atm, though.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 14:52:17
Approach Bethesda first. They're more likely to be interested in supporting something like this, especially if it ties into Fallout 4. I don't think they'll have a problem with it.
Email'd. :thumb:
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 10 September 2015, 17:58:34
Approach Bethesda first. They're more likely to be interested in supporting something like this, especially if it ties into Fallout 4. I don't think they'll have a problem with it.
Email'd. :thumb:
Fingers crossed :D
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 20:40:39
Approach Bethesda first. They're more likely to be interested in supporting something like this, especially if it ties into Fallout 4. I don't think they'll have a problem with it.
Email'd. :thumb:
Fingers crossed :D
Well, I got a partial verdict and I am waiting to appeal. I am thinking of requesting from Brian Fargo...
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 20:50:20
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 10 September 2015, 21:56:56
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).
Post by: harlw on Thu, 10 September 2015, 22:52:18
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Oh man :(
Would you consider seeing if massdrop could help you actually connect with real decision makers over there if they ran it?
I can ask some of the guys over there if you want. I've worked with them some on key sets.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 22:58:56
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).
Thanks. The shock is almost too much.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 10 September 2015, 23:01:19
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Oh man :(
Would you consider seeing if massdrop could help you actually connect with real decision makers over there if they ran it?
I can ask some of the guys over there if you want. I'm supposed to be working on them with future key sets.
That will be to only thing to save this
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 04:18:36
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).
Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, especially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 11 September 2015, 05:02:00
Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?
Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):
"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"
Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 07:31:10
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).Might as well repost it to /r/mechanicalkeyboards, 80k users is quite a lot.Posted it on /r/mk (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/)
Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, espeecially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.
I essentially got blocked at the door by a tech support gatekeeper. He basically responded with a template style answer. I am not giving up easily. I would love to network with someone there to gain permission, but how and who?
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 07:53:13
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).Might as well repost it to /r/mechanicalkeyboards, 80k users is quite a lot.Posted it on /r/mk (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/)
Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, espeecially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.
I essentially got blocked at the door by a tech support gatekeeper. He basically responded with a template style answer. I am not giving up easily. I would love to network with someone there to gain permission, but how and who?
As suggested in the comments on reddit, another option is to post on their facebook page. Although if you had no luck getting them through twitter, it might be tough to get them there as well.
Perhaps getting directly to Brian Fargo is a good option. Alternatively, someone could poke Obsidian Entertainment. They seem like a smaller studio, so perhaps there's a better chance of talking to real people (plus they might redirect to the right people at Bethesda).
Also, the admin of nexusmods might have some contacts too.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 08:02:18
can you or someone else help to advocate?I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).Might as well repost it to /r/mechanicalkeyboards, 80k users is quite a lot.Posted it on /r/mk (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/)
Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, espeecially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.
I essentially got blocked at the door by a tech support gatekeeper. He basically responded with a template style answer. I am not giving up easily. I would love to network with someone there to gain permission, but how and who?
As suggested in the comments on reddit, another option is to post on their facebook page. Although if you had no luck getting them through twitter, it might be tough to get them there as well.
Perhaps getting directly to Brian Fargo is a good option. Alternatively, someone could poke Obsidian Entertainment. They seem like a smaller studio, so perhaps there's a better chance of talking to real people (plus they might redirect to the right people at Bethesda).
Also, the admin of nexusmods might have some contacts too.
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 08:08:15
Post by: Data on Fri, 11 September 2015, 08:26:00
If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.
Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?
Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):
"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"
Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.
I really don't think they will give a **** about this group buy. It's a small community run, not-for-profit, and a one-time deal for an incredibly niche product. It doesn't overlap with their merchandising and it indirectly promotes their big upcoming product. PLUS: we're asking for permission! I know some companies protect their brands like new parents but this wouldn't even be on their radar (it's like 2-levels removed derivation) if SP wasn't so diligent about covering their asses. The trademark is also VERY recent -- it didn't exist for the last (first) Nuka Cola run. I checked.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 08:40:36
If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.
Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?
Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):
"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"
Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.
I really don't think they will give a **** about this group buy. It's a small community run, not-for-profit, and a one-time deal for an incredibly niche product. It doesn't overlap with their merchandising and it indirectly promotes their big upcoming product. PLUS: we're asking for permission! I know some companies protect their brands like new parents but this wouldn't even be on their radar (it's like 2-levels removed derivation) if SP wasn't so diligent about covering their asses. The trademark is also VERY recent -- it didn't exist for the last (first) Nuka Cola run. I checked.
So are there any IP lawyers who want to present how this would work? My mold existed before trademark, and it only bares likeness. If anything since Mogo did all the work to get the design moldable, then he is the creator and I would only need his permission. Loop hole, maybe?
Post by: Data on Fri, 11 September 2015, 08:45:14
If it helps, you can point out to them all the sellers on Etsy MAKING MONEY from their IP. Tell them to pursue those who're directly taking money from association to their brand instead of those trying to make a well-design, non-profit product that'll only increase awareness and interest in their franchise. Seriously, these companies can sometimes be so absolutely clueless as to what to allow and what not to, what's best for them and what's not.
Besides, isn't SP currently producing the DSA ones?
Also, I believe their trademarks for Nuka Cola don't include keycaps... Here is the list from the most applicable trademark (filed 5 August this year, found here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/):
"metal key chains, headphones; video game accessories, watches and jewelry; collectible bottle caps; collectible statues, posters; artwork; notebooks; calendars; wall decals and stickers; books; comic books, wallets; messenger bags; backpacks; leather key chains; leather portfolios; purses; belts; lunch boxes; cups and mugs; glassware; shot glasses, shower curtains; towels, clothing, namely, shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, fleece pullovers, jackets and leggings; headwear, namely, hats; footwear, namely, sneakers; socks, bobble-head dolls; plush toys; action figure toys; snowboards; board games; card games; replica weapons; puzzles"
Unless they categorise keycaps as "video game accessories". Which they aren't.
I really don't think they will give a **** about this group buy. It's a small community run, not-for-profit, and a one-time deal for an incredibly niche product. It doesn't overlap with their merchandising and it indirectly promotes their big upcoming product. PLUS: we're asking for permission! I know some companies protect their brands like new parents but this wouldn't even be on their radar (it's like 2-levels removed derivation) if SP wasn't so diligent about covering their asses. The trademark is also VERY recent -- it didn't exist for the last (first) Nuka Cola run. I checked.
So are there any IP lawyers who want to present how this would work? My mold existed before trademark, and it only bares likeness. If anything since Mogo did all the work to get the design moldable, then he is the creator and I would only need his permission. Loop hole, maybe?
If his artwork infringes then your claim is invalid. :P But I really don't think it's wise to approach it from that angle. If they have a registered trademark on the name then that's the end of it, from a legal perspective.
Rather, I think it's best to say, "Hey, Bethesda. We have this cool Fallout-themed key set we want to make, but we need your permission. Can you help us out?" And just hope for the best. The worst they can say is no.
Post by: ika on Fri, 11 September 2015, 08:57:43
Did Bethesda not approve it after all? I thought they would love it, especially with shipping time coinciding with Fallout 4 launch dates.
IIRC Bethesda is very protective of its IP and doesn't allow any kind of production like this, even if it's not for profit. Most companies are like this, see Squenix shutting down Chrono Trigger Resurrection and then not doing anything with the IP.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 09:06:52
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 09:23:47
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.1
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.2
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.3
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.4
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4803:ux98x.2.5
I see that the word keycap is no listed in the lists of items, but this may not mean much.
Seems like my hopes just fell again... :-[
Post by: harlw on Fri, 11 September 2015, 09:30:24
If I can prove my case showing that my mold was designed, created, and used prior to the trademark being established, then I should have my own permission to use my own mold, having been 'grandfathered' in.
Not sure that's how it works, copyright belongs to the original creator the second it's created. Trademarks make it easier to protect and gives the owner an easier path to seek damages. However, I don't think the law is ever going to be an issue here, it's simply convincing SP that there is no risk for themselves, of which I don't believe there is any. If you look at etsy and DIY product-on-demand services they are littered with IP infringement for the maker's profit, and there's not even intent to profit here.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 09:31:15
If his artwork infringes then your claim is invalid. :P But I really don't think it's wise to approach it from that angle. If they have a registered trademark on the name then that's the end of it, from a legal perspective.
Rather, I think it's best to say, "Hey, Bethesda. We have this cool Fallout-themed key set we want to make, but we need your permission. Can you help us out?" And just hope for the best. The worst they can say is no.
Already pitched it to them, but as stated previously, there was a template answer of:
"Unfortunately, we are not authorized to provide you with permission to use or reproduce images from our games, even for personal use. Please let us know if you have any other issues, questions or concerns and we will make sure you're taken care of.
In the meantime, we recommend you keep an eye on our official Facebook, Twitter, and website for upcoming news about Bethesda Softworks games here:
https://www.facebook.com/BethesdaSoftworks
https://twitter.com/Bethblog
http://www.bethblog.com
War, war never changes.
Warm regards,
Brian
Bethesda Customer Support Team
Visit Bethesda Support @https://help.bethesda.net
So, I failed to penetrate the wall. I have appealed to Brian Fargo, but...
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 09:57:49
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:06:51
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:14:41
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Don't feel bad :) you can always run a generic wasteland-themed set instead
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:16:32
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Don't feel bad :) you can always run a generic wasteland-themed set instead
Well, this I can say: the Vaults are 100% my design, so if I run anything it will be them. So, I would rather err on the side of caution and shut this GB down. Take a gorram break, and then do a Vault 111 one off later on...
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:19:06
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Don't feel bad :) you can always run a generic wasteland-themed set instead
Well, this I can say: the Vaults are 100% my design, so if I run anything it will be them. So, I would rather err on the side of caution and shut this GB down. Take a gorram break, and then do a Vault 111 one off later on...
Yeah, as much as I want these, I don't want no big scale trouble for you man. Do what's safest.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:25:34
If his artwork infringes then your claim is invalid. :P But I really don't think it's wise to approach it from that angle. If they have a registered trademark on the name then that's the end of it, from a legal perspective.
Rather, I think it's best to say, "Hey, Bethesda. We have this cool Fallout-themed key set we want to make, but we need your permission. Can you help us out?" And just hope for the best. The worst they can say is no.
Already pitched it to them, but as stated previously, there was a template answer of:
"Unfortunately, we are not authorized to provide you with permission to use or reproduce images from our games, even for personal use. Please let us know if you have any other issues, questions or concerns and we will make sure you're taken care of.
In the meantime, we recommend you keep an eye on our official Facebook, Twitter, and website for upcoming news about Bethesda Softworks games here:
https://www.facebook.com/BethesdaSoftworks
https://twitter.com/Bethblog
http://www.bethblog.com
War, war never changes.
Warm regards,
Brian
Bethesda Customer Support Team
Visit Bethesda Support @https://help.bethesda.net
So, I failed to penetrate the wall. I have appealed to Brian Fargo, but...
Just in from the /r/fallout comments:
Quote
Best person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:36:50
Just in from the /r/fallout comments:QuoteBest person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).
Link please...
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:38:03
Just in from the /r/fallout comments:QuoteBest person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).
Link please...
https://twitter.com/DCDeacon (https://twitter.com/DCDeacon)
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:42:24
Just in from the /r/fallout comments:QuoteBest person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).
Link please...
https://twitter.com/DCDeacon (https://twitter.com/DCDeacon)
Silly...I mean link to the reddit convo...
But, thanks for the link to his twitter, :)
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:43:34
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 11 September 2015, 10:51:25
I am not feeling good about this...and if Nuka Cola falls, I might as well hang it up with a hearty and heartfelt "I'm sorry to all those who placed their orders." I hate to say it, but I cannot win against this should I ever be sued over anything having to do with any of the likeness issue. Still waiting to see what they say as I try to find someone who can issue permission, but I will say it is not looking good...
Gah, understandable. I posted something over on the /r/fallout subreddit (https://redd.it/3khs8k).
Just in from the /r/fallout comments:QuoteBest person to ask would be Pete Hines (DCDeacon on Twitter).
Link please...
https://twitter.com/DCDeacon (https://twitter.com/DCDeacon)
Silly...I mean link to the reddit convo...
But, thanks for the link to his twitter, :)
Oh, sorry haah. Sadly there is nothing more than what I quoted and from the /r/fallout post I linked on page 3 :)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/3khs8k/trying_to_get_permission_for_custom_fallout/cuxz9pl
Post by: 9jack9 on Fri, 11 September 2015, 11:18:24
Got a retweet from Obsidian (https://twitter.com/parhelion318/status/642325363142586368), I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"
I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen. Hopefully something will come of it?
Post by: apolotary on Fri, 11 September 2015, 11:23:07
Got a retweet from Obsidian (https://twitter.com/parhelion318/status/642325363142586368), I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"
I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen. Hopefully something will come of it?
It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice
Post by: BrainFlush on Fri, 11 September 2015, 11:40:50
How about instead of it saying Nuka Cola, we get a bottle silhouette with the letters N C inside.
I don't know much about all this stuff but I can't imagine the printing aspect to be too complicated or so expensive to make an alternate print.
Just an idea and we still get that Fallout feeling.
Either way it goes, I still hope we can get something purchased even if the NC caps are missing.
Thanks again for bringing this GB out as I never even knew these caps existed.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 11:41:44
Got a retweet from Obsidian (https://twitter.com/parhelion318/status/642325363142586368), I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"
I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen. Hopefully something will come of it?
It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice
My nerves are wrecked...
Post by: 9jack9 on Fri, 11 September 2015, 11:50:55
Got a retweet from Obsidian (https://twitter.com/parhelion318/status/642325363142586368), I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"
I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen. Hopefully something will come of it?
It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice
My nerves are wrecked...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up. I understand the frustration you're dealing with. Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.
Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment.
Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 12:08:45
Got a retweet from Obsidian (https://twitter.com/parhelion318/status/642325363142586368), I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"
I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen. Hopefully something will come of it?
It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice
My nerves are wrecked...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up. I understand the frustration you're dealing with. Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.
Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment.
Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!
Thank you for your support...I am going to do my best to keep a cool head going forward.
Post by: 9jack9 on Fri, 11 September 2015, 12:12:17
No shame in putting the keyboard away for a few hours (or a day) if you start feeling really anxious /nervous /frustrated until you regain composure. You have the support and understanding of a large community here, no matter the outcome.Got a retweet from Obsidian (https://twitter.com/parhelion318/status/642325363142586368), I guess that's something. And of course by "we" I meant "geeckhack users"
I tweeted them pointing to 00zerO's post about needing the letter for SA, saying we need their help to make it happen. Hopefully something will come of it?
It wont't hurt, the GB is getting enough publicity already, which is nice
My nerves are wrecked...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up. I understand the frustration you're dealing with. Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.
Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment.
Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!
Thank you for your support...I am going to do my best to keep a cool head going forward.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 12:17:32
No shame in putting the keyboard away for a few hours (or a day) if you start feeling really anxious /nervous /frustrated until you regain composure. You have the support and understanding of a large community here, no matter the outcome.
hehe, would love to but I type for a living...and I got a few more hours to chug away on this here Blackbird...
Post by: harlw on Fri, 11 September 2015, 12:45:45
My nerves are wrecked...
Dude - we will TOTALLY come visit you in jail, don't sweat it at all :D
Post by: jerue on Fri, 11 September 2015, 14:01:35
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Yeah...redditors are like that. Oh well. Just keep cool, I hope everything works out.
I really hope though that an agreement could be reached where Bethesda works with SP to make Fallout keycaps a regular thing, maybe making mechanicalkeyboards.com a supplier? (I know that this GB is not affiliated with the site, this is just me talking really).
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 11 September 2015, 14:27:42
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Yeah...redditors are like that. Oh well. Just keep cool, I hope everything works out.
I really hope though that an agreement could be reached where Bethesda works with SP to make Fallout keycaps a regular thing, maybe making mechanicalkeyboards.com a supplier? (I know that this GB is not affiliated with the site, this is just me talking really).
Dare to dream...
Post by: Data on Fri, 11 September 2015, 15:30:57
Just for the record, don't forget to check out the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3kito9/helpbuyinggb_out_of_the_vault_falloutthemed/). I'm seeing some useful advice over there already.
I feel like an idiot...
Yeah...redditors are like that. Oh well. Just keep cool, I hope everything works out.
I really hope though that an agreement could be reached where Bethesda works with SP to make Fallout keycaps a regular thing, maybe making mechanicalkeyboards.com a supplier? (I know that this GB is not affiliated with the site, this is just me talking really).
Dare to dream...
SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission. I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official. If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines. Contracts get written and lawyers consulted. It just makes everything messy. Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level. It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval. But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.
And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.
IP law is so ****ed up. :(
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 12 September 2015, 08:03:05
Sorry to hear about the trouble with the Nuka Cola trademark thingy, which made me think of an alternative.
How about instead of it saying Nuka Cola, we get a bottle silhouette with the letters N C inside.
I don't know much about all this stuff but I can't imagine the printing aspect to be too complicated or so expensive to make an alternate print.
Just an idea and we still get that Fallout feeling.
Either way it goes, I still hope we can get something purchased even if the NC caps are missing.
Thanks again for bringing this GB out as I never even knew these caps existed.
Thank you for the suggestion. When I was planning the original mockups of the legend, I thought about doing this, but it seemed way to ambiguous.
If they say no, I may just walk away from the Nuka Cola idea totally and just stick my vaults from now on.
Post by: apolotary on Sat, 12 September 2015, 08:18:59
(http://i.imgur.com/Wg4h8Nj.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Wg4h8Nj)
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 12 September 2015, 08:32:15
...
SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission. I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official. If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines. Contracts get written and lawyers consulted. It just makes everything messy. Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level. It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval. But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.
And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.
IP law is so ****ed up. :(
+100 to this.
The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.
There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.
The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.
TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 12 September 2015, 08:37:36
...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up. I understand the frustration you're dealing with. Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.
Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment.
Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!
+1. I'm already drafting a letter to SP about another issue (the Row 4 shifts) and would not mind adding something in there about how ridiculous it is to require these letters (with suggestions of how to achieve the same end for them with less pressure / responsibility for designers) if you like. Or we could open a new line of interest in this. I'm starting to think we should start a thread about all issues regarding SP that people would like to address and we can get the whole community behind these things instead of it being so limited and piecemeal as it currently is...
Post by: BrainFlush on Sat, 12 September 2015, 09:39:11
Thank you for the suggestion. When I was planning the original mockups of the legend, I thought about doing this, but it seemed way to ambiguous.
If they say no, I may just walk away from the Nuka Cola idea totally and just stick my vaults from now on.
I say keep your head up and think about changing it to whatever you want.
I back whatever design you come up with.
It just sucks that you ran into this wall but don't give up because of this one thing.
Take care.
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 12 September 2015, 10:44:22
...
I totally get you've put time and effort into this, and that hitting this bureaucratic wall where just talking to a person of authority will clear everything up. I understand the frustration you're dealing with. Do keep in mind that these are keycaps, and that being calm and methodical about this will likely result in the most beneficial outcome for everyone, but at worst case scenario, the nuka-cola caps are not made.
Keep your head up, and keep in mind that the worst case scenario here would be nothing more than a disappointment.
Regardless if this goes through or not, thanks for organizing this!
+1. I'm already drafting a letter to SP about another issue (the Row 4 shifts) and would not mind adding something in there about how ridiculous it is to require these letters (with suggestions of how to achieve the same end for them with less pressure / responsibility for designers) if you like. Or we could open a new line of interest in this. I'm starting to think we should start a thread about all issues regarding SP that people would like to address and we can get the whole community behind these things instead of it being so limited and piecemeal as it currently is...
You may make reference but timing is everything. They have agreed to make the DSA caps and I don't want to tick them off against doing so at this point. Once they tell me the caps ship from them to me, I will give you the green light to fire away.
Post by: dutC4 on Sat, 12 September 2015, 11:59:13
...
SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission. I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official. If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines. Contracts get written and lawyers consulted. It just makes everything messy. Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level. It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval. But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.
And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.
IP law is so ****ed up. :(
+100 to this.
The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.
There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.
The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.
TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.
To be fair, SP isn't doing charity work. They're making enough money to pay wages and make profits. They're doing this so they don't have to be afraid.
Post by: Data on Sat, 12 September 2015, 14:46:06
...
SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission. I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official. If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines. Contracts get written and lawyers consulted. It just makes everything messy. Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level. It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval. But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.
And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.
IP law is so ****ed up. :(
+100 to this.
The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.
There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.
The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.
TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.
SP is just doing what makes the most sense to them. Can't really blame them for taking the easy out on this. If the choice is between exposing my business to liability and disappointing one customer, I'd probably back away from the deal too. They're not exactly saying they won't run it (although that's the effective result as far as we're concerned) they just want everything to be on the up & up. We could still do vaults and Lucky 38 if we wanted. /shrug
If there's a bad guy here it's our overbearing IP law and our litigious society.
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 12 September 2015, 14:55:38
Irony of irony is that the actual trademarked Nuka Cola Logo cannot be double shot in the size of keycap......
SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission. I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official. If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines. Contracts get written and lawyers consulted. It just makes everything messy. Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level. It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval. But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.
And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.
IP law is so ****ed up. :(
+100 to this.
The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.
There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.
The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.
TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.
SP is just doing what makes the most sense to them. Can't really blame them for taking the easy out on this. If the choice is between exposing my business to liability and disappointing one customer, I'd probably back away from the deal too. They're not exactly saying they won't run it (although that's the effective result as far as we're concerned) they just want everything to be on the up & up. We could still do vaults and Lucky 38 if we wanted. /shrug
If there's a bad guy here it's our overbearing IP law and our litigious society.
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 12 September 2015, 14:57:22
Who but SP does SA profile?...
SP really put the whole group buy/order (and themselves, indirectly) on ice when they asked you to get permission. I understand their hesitation, but Bethesda is going to default to a "decline" stance on this the moment you ask them to make it official. If they give some kind of nod to the key set then it's essentially a licensed product and suddenly it has to meet strict brand and style guidelines. Contracts get written and lawyers consulted. It just makes everything messy. Bethesda doesn't want to get involved on that level. It would be much easier for them to just ignore it and, in doing so, give it their tacit approval. But SP is telling you to ask Bethesda to put a ring on it and SP is really shooting themselves in the foot (and us in the face) with that.
And at the same time, I can't really blame them for covering their asses.
IP law is so ****ed up. :(
+100 to this.
The fault here does not lie with Bethesda. I'm pretty sure they're very happy to let this happen as it would only have positive effects on their franchise. On the other hand, if they are requested to give explicit consent to this, it forces them into a particular legal position, where denying it consent is the most "correct" thing to do.
There's a big difference between requiring GB designers to get letters of consent from massive corporations and simply having a letter of liability which would cover their asses just as well from a legal standpoint and would not require GB designers to wade through a ridiculous amount of legal BS and bureaucratic nonsense to produce these letters.
The more I deal with SP and the more GB's I participate in with them involved the more enthusiastic I get for finding a competitor who can offer the same services.
TLDR: SP are being asshats for no particular reason.
Post by: E3E on Sat, 12 September 2015, 17:02:43
Post by: 00zeRO on Sat, 12 September 2015, 23:10:57
Hoping things pull through, but it's not looking good. Damn, SP is really making this more complicated than it needs to be.
Ain't no fat ladies singing yet...
Post by: Oobly on Sun, 13 September 2015, 07:31:06
Requiring consent letters forces individuals to get legal documents from corporations for things they wouldn't take notice of usually. It's very much over-the-top, unnecessary and places a huge burden on designers (not to mention forcing the hand of the company, usually towards the negative). It just helps to support the impression that SP doesn't care about and doesn't listen to the keycap enthusiast community.
Devlin make an SA Row 3 equivalent and there are some Chinese companies who are willing to listen and produce almost anything as long as it has a reasonable sized market. The latter may well prove to be the way to go eventually, if SP continues to treat us as second-rate citizens. Gateron has shown a considerable amount of interest in the community and willingness to collaborate on projects. They or JTK may even show an interest in making SA-like caps in future.
Post by: Data on Sun, 13 September 2015, 19:44:13
@dutC4 and Data: I think you missed my point. SP could cover themselves just as well with a well written letter of liability that they require all designers to sign, instead of requiring letters of consent. It's not any harder for them and they'd be covered legally.
Requiring consent letters forces individuals to get legal documents from corporations for things they wouldn't take notice of usually. It's very much over-the-top, unnecessary and places a huge burden on designers (not to mention forcing the hand of the company, usually towards the negative). It just helps to support the impression that SP doesn't care about and doesn't listen to the keycap enthusiast community.
Devlin make an SA Row 3 equivalent and there are some Chinese companies who are willing to listen and produce almost anything as long as it has a reasonable sized market. The latter may well prove to be the way to go eventually, if SP continues to treat us as second-rate citizens. Gateron has shown a considerable amount of interest in the community and willingness to collaborate on projects. They or JTK may even show an interest in making SA-like caps in future.
I understood. I seriously doubt a waiver/letter would sufficiently shift the burden of liability away from SP. But anything is possible I suppose. Do you have an example of a company that handles trademark issues that way?
Devlin and its Asian competitors (especially) don't have the same exposure to litigation as SP does in this case, because they aren't based in the US. They can afford to play it a little more loosely with IP. So when a community project risks encroachment on a trademark or something it would make the most sense to take your business to someone other than SP (I'm agreeing with you here).
Post by: 00zeRO on Sun, 13 September 2015, 22:11:18
...Devlin...
...Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Post by: 00zeRO on Sun, 13 September 2015, 22:17:09
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
Post by: apolotary on Sun, 13 September 2015, 23:41:55
Updated numbers in OP. I have not gone through to omit changes so the numbers may be a little off, but we can see where we are.
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
I'm definitely in. Wish there was a cap with a BOS logo rendering, but no biggie :)
Post by: ika on Mon, 14 September 2015, 00:02:23
I just had a crazy idea - what if you had "Nuka" on one keycap, and "Cola" on the other? It could be a two-part combination logo, except it wouldn't have to be presented that way.
Post by: harlw on Mon, 14 September 2015, 01:27:40
Updated numbers in OP. I have not gone through to omit changes so the numbers may be a little off, but we can see where we are.
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
What if i designed a new legend or two? Three off the top of my head that I can create in double-shotable vector format could be the Propaganda Boy's (?) head and thumbs up on separate caps and/or a plain soda bottle silhouette. http://www.joysticksports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pipboy.jpg
edit: I could probably also iconify the pip boy itself
Post by: apolotary on Mon, 14 September 2015, 01:41:06
Updated numbers in OP. I have not gone through to omit changes so the numbers may be a little off, but we can see where we are.
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
What if i designed a new legend or two? Three off the top of my head that I can create in double-shotable vector format could be the Propaganda Boy's (?) head and thumbs up on separate caps and/or a plain soda bottle silhouette. http://www.joysticksports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pipboy.jpg
edit: I could probably also iconify the pip boy itself
Pretty sure Vault Boy is trademarked (but everybody use him in ads anyway)
No problem with similarly drawn generic characters though
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 14 September 2015, 03:19:28
...Devlin......Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Actually, it's "Devlin", a UK-based keycap manufacturer: http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html
"Delrin" is a DuPont branded version of POM.
About the legends, I joined this GB primarily for Nuka Cola, secondarily for Vaults and don't care about Lucky38. Without the Nuka Cola there isn't much left for me.
The only other option I can see in terms of legends that won't require a letter from Bethesda / ZeniMax is a generic soft drink bottle. But that's pretty lame compared to the Nuka Cola legend and doesn't tie in very tightly to the theme. But at this point anything that links well to the franchise will most likely require the same letter.
So, IMHO, this can probably be reduced to 3 kits:
1. All Row 3 Vault colours (10 caps)
2. All Row 3 & Row 1 Lucky 38s (7 caps)
3. All Row 1 Vaults (7 caps)
If you make any changes to the kits (ie, letter of consent from Bethesda is not forthcoming), please cancel the existing orders and create a new order form. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to change what I've ordered according to what's in the final kits.
IMHO, it's really the American attitude of nobody taking responsibility which has led to this. If the courts acted with a little common sense instead (and took a little more responsibility for their decisions instead of simply following the laws to the letter and updating them for each and every little nuance) you wouldn't need warning labels a mile long on every product and letters of consent just to protect yourself from litigation for a hobby project. In that sense, Europe is light years ahead of US.
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 08:17:44
Updated numbers in OP. I have not gone through to omit changes so the numbers may be a little off, but we can see where we are.
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
What if i designed a new legend or two? Three off the top of my head that I can create in double-shotable vector format could be the Propaganda Boy's (?) head and thumbs up on separate caps and/or a plain soda bottle silhouette. http://www.joysticksports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pipboy.jpg
edit: I could probably also iconify the pip boy itself
Sounds good. Just email me. Thank you
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Mon, 14 September 2015, 09:03:14
Updated numbers in OP. I have not gone through to omit changes so the numbers may be a little off, but we can see where we are.
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
What if i designed a new legend or two? Three off the top of my head that I can create in double-shotable vector format could be the Propaganda Boy's (?) head and thumbs up on separate caps and/or a plain soda bottle silhouette. http://www.joysticksports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pipboy.jpg
edit: I could probably also iconify the pip boy itself
Sounds good. Just email me. Thank you
I did some super crappy thumb mock ups, I think they would be awesome if someone did them right :thumb: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72558.msg1790413#msg1790413
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 09:15:34
Updated numbers in OP. I have not gone through to omit changes so the numbers may be a little off, but we can see where we are.
In response for liability contracts, I won't sign one. I would rather just walk away and not ever get sued, than to stick my neck out for something that is not really worth it anyway.
---
Contingency plan: should I decide move forward with Vaults and Lucky 38. Does anyone have a problem with Lucky 38 subbing for all Nuka Cola legends? Nuka Cola Six pack would be delorted for obvious reasons.
What if i designed a new legend or two? Three off the top of my head that I can create in double-shotable vector format could be the Propaganda Boy's (?) head and thumbs up on separate caps and/or a plain soda bottle silhouette. http://www.joysticksports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pipboy.jpg
edit: I could probably also iconify the pip boy itself
Sounds good. Just email me. Thank you
I did some super crappy thumb mock ups, I think they would be awesome if someone did them right :thumb: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72558.msg1790413#msg1790413
I don't know...SP might get sued...jk
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 09:23:08
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 10:25:36
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 10:41:12
...Devlin......Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Actually, it's "Devlin", a UK-based keycap manufacturer: http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html
"Delrin" is a DuPont branded version of POM.
About the legends, I joined this GB primarily for Nuka Cola, secondarily for Vaults and don't care about Lucky38. Without the Nuka Cola there isn't much left for me.
The only other option I can see in terms of legends that won't require a letter from Bethesda / ZeniMax is a generic soft drink bottle. But that's pretty lame compared to the Nuka Cola legend and doesn't tie in very tightly to the theme. But at this point anything that links well to the franchise will most likely require the same letter.
So, IMHO, this can probably be reduced to 3 kits:
1. All Row 3 Vault colours (10 caps)
2. All Row 3 & Row 1 Lucky 38s (7 caps)
3. All Row 1 Vaults (7 caps)
If you make any changes to the kits (ie, letter of consent from Bethesda is not forthcoming), please cancel the existing orders and create a new order form. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to change what I've ordered according to what's in the final kits.
IMHO, it's really the American attitude of nobody taking responsibility which has led to this. If the courts acted with a little common sense instead (and took a little more responsibility for their decisions instead of simply following the laws to the letter and updating them for each and every little nuance) you wouldn't need warning labels a mile long on every product and letters of consent just to protect yourself from litigation for a hobby project. In that sense, Europe is light years ahead of US.
Thank you for clearing the D company names up as I am obviously lacking facts.
As for everything else. I don't doubt the legal aspect of the differences between our respective countries. What would you think of a parody legend that winks at the Nuka Cola trademark but may be considered fair use?
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 10:44:59
Personally I would rather have a bigger collection of the various vault icons (esp 101) rather than Lucky 38, but either one would be fine as a sub.
Well, I have always wanted a Vault 87 key made. Vault 21 would be a good companion or substitute for the Lucky 38.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Mon, 14 September 2015, 10:45:23
Just had an idea. What if we Parodied the Nuka Cola brand and created a cursive swooping legend with the words 'Rad Soda'
I like it, but I'm not sure what kind of buy in that it would get.
How about some of the ofther fallout icons that are probably not copyrighted?
The scientific icon for a fallout shelter (it's used in the official Fallout Shelter game, and it can't be copyrighted)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/United_States_Fallout_Shelter_Sign.svg/2000px-United_States_Fallout_Shelter_Sign.svg.png)
Nulclear symbol
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/f/5/4/6/12427968391741677025Nuclear_symbol.svg.hi.png)
Some of the words from the nuka cola series? Like just a styled "Quantum" on it's own. They can't have copyright on just the one word (maybe they have the font/logo?)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/27/96/cf/2796cfd67c80b8189c49598c95d70a5b.jpg)
Fallout "O" with the nightlight bolt? (this one is questionable)
(http://www.geekoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/fallout-logo.jpg)
Brotherhood of steel? (it's pretty generic to have a copyright?)
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/6/6a/Fo1_BoS_Paladin_Insignia.png/revision/latest?cb=20121204143208)
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 11:54:11
Just had an idea. What if we Parodied the Nuka Cola brand and created a cursive swooping legend with the words 'Rad Soda'
I like it, but I'm not sure what kind of buy in that it would get.
How about some of the ofther fallout icons that are probably not copyrighted?
The scientific icon for a fallout shelter (it's used in the official Fallout Shelter game, and it can't be copyrighted)Show Image(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/United_States_Fallout_Shelter_Sign.svg/2000px-United_States_Fallout_Shelter_Sign.svg.png)
Nulclear symbolShow Image(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/f/5/4/6/12427968391741677025Nuclear_symbol.svg.hi.png)
Some of the words from the nuka cola series? Like just a styled "Quantum" on it's own. They can't have copyright on just the one word (maybe they have the font/logo?)Show Image(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/27/96/cf/2796cfd67c80b8189c49598c95d70a5b.jpg)
Fallout "O" with the nightlight bolt? (this one is questionable)Show Image(http://www.geekoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/fallout-logo.jpg)
Brotherhood of steel? (it's pretty generic to have a copyright?)Show Image(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/6/6a/Fo1_BoS_Paladin_Insignia.png/revision/latest?cb=20121204143208)
Nuclear symbol
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/f/5/4/6/12427968391741677025Nuclear_symbol.svg.hi.png)
^ this one already exists and I would need to gain permission from the owner to do it: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61198.0
I do like the Fallout Shelter one though. Brotherhood of Steel version you show looks like it could be done, where did that image appear in the games? Fallout Tactics?
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 14 September 2015, 12:22:34
I guess this makes the original Nuka Cola caps a whole lot more collectible and valuable :D Pity I missed series 2 due to lack of funds at the time :(
Maybe Rad away? Pip-boy is trademarked :-[ and RAD-X is apparently trademarked by a completely different company :-\
Post by: apolotary on Mon, 14 September 2015, 12:33:57
I like the nuclear symbol, and samewisekoi is a nice guy and very likely to give you permission to use the logo. The fallout shelter symbol is not as immediately recognisable.
I guess this makes the original Nuka Cola caps a whole lot more collectible and valuable :D Pity I missed series 2 due to lack of funds at the time :(
Maybe Rad away? Pip-boy is trademarked :-[ and RAD-X is apparently trademarked by a completely different company :-\
The phrase "War never changes" is not copyrighted yet I think
Post by: harlw on Mon, 14 September 2015, 12:54:44
...Devlin......Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Actually, it's "Devlin", a UK-based keycap manufacturer: http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html (http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html)
"Delrin" is a DuPont branded version of POM.
About the legends, I joined this GB primarily for Nuka Cola, secondarily for Vaults and don't care about Lucky38. Without the Nuka Cola there isn't much left for me.
The only other option I can see in terms of legends that won't require a letter from Bethesda / ZeniMax is a generic soft drink bottle. But that's pretty lame compared to the Nuka Cola legend and doesn't tie in very tightly to the theme. But at this point anything that links well to the franchise will most likely require the same letter.
So, IMHO, this can probably be reduced to 3 kits:
1. All Row 3 Vault colours (10 caps)
2. All Row 3 & Row 1 Lucky 38s (7 caps)
3. All Row 1 Vaults (7 caps)
If you make any changes to the kits (ie, letter of consent from Bethesda is not forthcoming), please cancel the existing orders and create a new order form. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to change what I've ordered according to what's in the final kits.
IMHO, it's really the American attitude of nobody taking responsibility which has led to this. If the courts acted with a little common sense instead (and took a little more responsibility for their decisions instead of simply following the laws to the letter and updating them for each and every little nuance) you wouldn't need warning labels a mile long on every product and letters of consent just to protect yourself from litigation for a hobby project. In that sense, Europe is light years ahead of US.
I'd be very interested to see what Devlin has to say about this set :D
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Mon, 14 September 2015, 13:10:40
Just had an idea. What if we Parodied the Nuka Cola brand and created a cursive swooping legend with the words 'Rad Soda'
I like it, but I'm not sure what kind of buy in that it would get.
How about some of the ofther fallout icons that are probably not copyrighted?
The scientific icon for a fallout shelter (it's used in the official Fallout Shelter game, and it can't be copyrighted)Show Image(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/United_States_Fallout_Shelter_Sign.svg/2000px-United_States_Fallout_Shelter_Sign.svg.png)
Nulclear symbolShow Image(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/f/5/4/6/12427968391741677025Nuclear_symbol.svg.hi.png)
Some of the words from the nuka cola series? Like just a styled "Quantum" on it's own. They can't have copyright on just the one word (maybe they have the font/logo?)Show Image(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/27/96/cf/2796cfd67c80b8189c49598c95d70a5b.jpg)
Fallout "O" with the nightlight bolt? (this one is questionable)Show Image(http://www.geekoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/fallout-logo.jpg)
Brotherhood of steel? (it's pretty generic to have a copyright?)Show Image(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/6/6a/Fo1_BoS_Paladin_Insignia.png/revision/latest?cb=20121204143208)
Nuclear symbolShow Image(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/f/5/4/6/12427968391741677025Nuclear_symbol.svg.hi.png)
^ this one already exists and I would need to gain permission from the owner to do it: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61198.0
I do like the Fallout Shelter one though. Brotherhood of Steel version you show looks like it could be done, where did that image appear in the games? Fallout Tactics?
I got the brotherhood of steel one wrong. The full logo is too complicated for a double shot and I thought what I picked was an alternate one. It isn't. It's apparently for the Paladin rank: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_ranks
I like the nuclear symbol, and samewisekoi is a nice guy and very likely to give you permission to use the logo. The fallout shelter symbol is not as immediately recognisable.
I guess this makes the original Nuka Cola caps a whole lot more collectible and valuable :D Pity I missed series 2 due to lack of funds at the time :(
Maybe Rad away? Pip-boy is trademarked :-[ and RAD-X is apparently trademarked by a completely different company :-\
Hmm, I agree maybe the fallout shelter icon isn't that recognizable to fallout fans, but it is legit. I think that would be better than a parody.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5Ii71yNQXLJz6QG-UGZOQ7lCSu_VCKUTN3-jBbjH4_Uahq2zZCsa8B2TQhD10uE3TA=w300)
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 14 September 2015, 14:03:14
...Devlin......Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Actually, it's "Devlin", a UK-based keycap manufacturer: http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html
"Delrin" is a DuPont branded version of POM.
About the legends, I joined this GB primarily for Nuka Cola, secondarily for Vaults and don't care about Lucky38. Without the Nuka Cola there isn't much left for me.
The only other option I can see in terms of legends that won't require a letter from Bethesda / ZeniMax is a generic soft drink bottle. But that's pretty lame compared to the Nuka Cola legend and doesn't tie in very tightly to the theme. But at this point anything that links well to the franchise will most likely require the same letter.
So, IMHO, this can probably be reduced to 3 kits:
1. All Row 3 Vault colours (10 caps)
2. All Row 3 & Row 1 Lucky 38s (7 caps)
3. All Row 1 Vaults (7 caps)
If you make any changes to the kits (ie, letter of consent from Bethesda is not forthcoming), please cancel the existing orders and create a new order form. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to change what I've ordered according to what's in the final kits.
IMHO, it's really the American attitude of nobody taking responsibility which has led to this. If the courts acted with a little common sense instead (and took a little more responsibility for their decisions instead of simply following the laws to the letter and updating them for each and every little nuance) you wouldn't need warning labels a mile long on every product and letters of consent just to protect yourself from litigation for a hobby project. In that sense, Europe is light years ahead of US.
If I were to go with a company like Devlin, what profile would be the best in terms of popularity and/or functionality with current profiles.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 15 September 2015, 02:26:35
...Devlin......Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Actually, it's "Devlin", a UK-based keycap manufacturer: http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html
"Delrin" is a DuPont branded version of POM.
About the legends, I joined this GB primarily for Nuka Cola, secondarily for Vaults and don't care about Lucky38. Without the Nuka Cola there isn't much left for me.
The only other option I can see in terms of legends that won't require a letter from Bethesda / ZeniMax is a generic soft drink bottle. But that's pretty lame compared to the Nuka Cola legend and doesn't tie in very tightly to the theme. But at this point anything that links well to the franchise will most likely require the same letter.
So, IMHO, this can probably be reduced to 3 kits:
1. All Row 3 Vault colours (10 caps)
2. All Row 3 & Row 1 Lucky 38s (7 caps)
3. All Row 1 Vaults (7 caps)
If you make any changes to the kits (ie, letter of consent from Bethesda is not forthcoming), please cancel the existing orders and create a new order form. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to change what I've ordered according to what's in the final kits.
IMHO, it's really the American attitude of nobody taking responsibility which has led to this. If the courts acted with a little common sense instead (and took a little more responsibility for their decisions instead of simply following the laws to the letter and updating them for each and every little nuance) you wouldn't need warning labels a mile long on every product and letters of consent just to protect yourself from litigation for a hobby project. In that sense, Europe is light years ahead of US.
If I were to go with a company like Devlin, what profile would be the best in terms of popularity and/or functionality with current profiles.
Their "K" profile is very similar SA profile Row 3, but it's "matte" finish.
Their "J" profile looks to be like Cherry profile and DCS, but I'm not sure the exact heights and angles of caps, so they may not quite match.
Their "Q" profile is somewhat like DSA, but it has a larger top and is thicker.
All the caps I've seen from them so far have a had a matte finish which is somewhere between SP's matte and semi-matte. It's closer to SP's matte, but with smaller surface features, more sandpaperish than bumpy.
So, for a novelty cap that fits with SA profile, but has a bit more "grit" to it, "K" profile is nice. On the other hand I don't yet know all their capabilities and whether they can use polycarbonate. Their colours are also very limited, a LOT less than what SP offers. This pic is from the old QWERKeys site:
[attach=1]
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 15 September 2015, 10:32:51
Their "K" profile is very similar SA profile Row 3, but it's "matte" finish.
Their "J" profile looks to be like Cherry profile and DCS, but I'm not sure the exact heights and angles of caps, so they may not quite match.
Their "Q" profile is somewhat like DSA, but it has a larger top and is thicker.
All the caps I've seen from them so far have a had a matte finish which is somewhere between SP's matte and semi-matte. It's closer to SP's matte, but with smaller surface features, more sandpaperish than bumpy.
So, for a novelty cap that fits with SA profile, but has a bit more "grit" to it, "K" profile is nice. On the other hand I don't yet know all their capabilities and whether they can use polycarbonate. Their colours are also very limited, a LOT less than what SP offers. This pic is from the old QWERKeys site:
(Attachment Link)
If only I could find a company that can do PBT SA-style Dye-Sublimation keys...
Post by: 9jack9 on Tue, 15 September 2015, 11:10:42
Their "K" profile is very similar SA profile Row 3, but it's "matte" finish.
Their "J" profile looks to be like Cherry profile and DCS, but I'm not sure the exact heights and angles of caps, so they may not quite match.
Their "Q" profile is somewhat like DSA, but it has a larger top and is thicker.
All the caps I've seen from them so far have a had a matte finish which is somewhere between SP's matte and semi-matte. It's closer to SP's matte, but with smaller surface features, more sandpaperish than bumpy.
So, for a novelty cap that fits with SA profile, but has a bit more "grit" to it, "K" profile is nice. On the other hand I don't yet know all their capabilities and whether they can use polycarbonate. Their colours are also very limited, a LOT less than what SP offers. This pic is from the old QWERKeys site:
(Attachment Link)
If only I could find a company that can do PBT SA-style Dye-Sublimation keys...
I didn't think PBT could be used for SA profiles due to the thickness of the material, then again I don't know that much about plastics :)
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 15 September 2015, 11:12:18
I didn't think PBT could be used for SA profiles due to the thickness of the material, then again I don't know that much about plastics :)
Nor do I, just dreaming away...
Post by: harlw on Tue, 15 September 2015, 11:13:08
...Devlin......Devlin...
Edit: it's Delrin, maker of POM keycaps...
Actually, it's "Devlin", a UK-based keycap manufacturer: http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html (http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html)
"Delrin" is a DuPont branded version of POM.
About the legends, I joined this GB primarily for Nuka Cola, secondarily for Vaults and don't care about Lucky38. Without the Nuka Cola there isn't much left for me.
The only other option I can see in terms of legends that won't require a letter from Bethesda / ZeniMax is a generic soft drink bottle. But that's pretty lame compared to the Nuka Cola legend and doesn't tie in very tightly to the theme. But at this point anything that links well to the franchise will most likely require the same letter.
So, IMHO, this can probably be reduced to 3 kits:
1. All Row 3 Vault colours (10 caps)
2. All Row 3 & Row 1 Lucky 38s (7 caps)
3. All Row 1 Vaults (7 caps)
If you make any changes to the kits (ie, letter of consent from Bethesda is not forthcoming), please cancel the existing orders and create a new order form. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to change what I've ordered according to what's in the final kits.
IMHO, it's really the American attitude of nobody taking responsibility which has led to this. If the courts acted with a little common sense instead (and took a little more responsibility for their decisions instead of simply following the laws to the letter and updating them for each and every little nuance) you wouldn't need warning labels a mile long on every product and letters of consent just to protect yourself from litigation for a hobby project. In that sense, Europe is light years ahead of US.
If I were to go with a company like Devlin, what profile would be the best in terms of popularity and/or functionality with current profiles.
Their "K" profile is very similar SA profile Row 3, but it's "matte" finish.
Their "J" profile looks to be like Cherry profile and DCS, but I'm not sure the exact heights and angles of caps, so they may not quite match.
Their "Q" profile is somewhat like DSA, but it has a larger top and is thicker.
All the caps I've seen from them so far have a had a matte finish which is somewhere between SP's matte and semi-matte. It's closer to SP's matte, but with smaller surface features, more sandpaperish than bumpy.
So, for a novelty cap that fits with SA profile, but has a bit more "grit" to it, "K" profile is nice. On the other hand I don't yet know all their capabilities and whether they can use polycarbonate. Their colours are also very limited, a LOT less than what SP offers. This pic is from the old QWERKeys site:
[attach=1]
I was thinking we talk them into doing their own version of profiled SA - they claim to do custom cap shapes and if we could convince them of the potential market we could potentially have ourselves a genuine competitor, which is what I think this market needs right now.
Post by: 9jack9 on Tue, 15 September 2015, 11:15:08
I didn't think PBT could be used for SA profiles due to the thickness of the material, then again I don't know that much about plastics :)
Nor do I, just dreaming away...
I'm a mechE, I've done some plastic design, and I assume that for PBT, for that thickness, you need to up the pressure that you're using to inject the plastic so much so that few machines are capable of doing so (that, or it becomes cost prohibitive). There is a plastic injection company right next to where I work, and I've done some work w/ them in the past, however I doubt they would have much interest in doing keycaps of the volumes we're talking about.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 15 September 2015, 11:50:00
But... perhaps they could be persuaded to make the caps themselves and someone like Feng could be persuaded to dyesub them... Then you could have any legends within whatever Feng is willing to do.
That'd be a nice "first". Dyesub SA profile caps :)
As I said before, I really don't know all of Devlin's capabilities and what they'd be willing to invest in / try.
Post by: tangkims on Thu, 17 September 2015, 17:46:17
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 17 September 2015, 17:56:31
Why is the order on hold? =(
SP, the manufacturer, requires permission from Bethesda to make more Nuka Cola keycaps...
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 17 September 2015, 17:56:39
Why is the order on hold? =(
Read the thread..... (page 3 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74928.msg1861425#msg1861425)
Post by: Data on Thu, 17 September 2015, 18:54:11
Just had an idea. What if we Parodied the Nuka Cola brand and created a cursive swooping legend with the words 'Rad Soda'This could be cool with the nuclear symbol as the "O" in Soda.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 18 September 2015, 07:36:18
Just had an idea. What if we Parodied the Nuka Cola brand and created a cursive swooping legend with the words 'Rad Soda'This could be cool with the nuclear symbol as the "O" in Soda.
Could be sweet...
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 18 September 2015, 07:37:15
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 21 September 2015, 13:29:41
Post by: tofgerl on Mon, 21 September 2015, 13:50:28
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 21 September 2015, 13:56:26
Quick tip: Tell them each buyer will give $5 to a charity of their choice, or something. Make it CLEAR that this is not a moneymaking thing, it's for our own fun.
We are doing our best to show that it is for fans, by fans and not for profit outside of SP's production profits, but that is on them.
Post by: tofgerl on Mon, 21 September 2015, 14:02:12
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 21 September 2015, 14:26:36
Yeah, but SP won't make more money because of this set, their order book is pretty full as it is.
What I mean is that they have their cost per keycap, and then they have the amount above each keycap to make it worthwhile for them to produce them. Believe me, machines won't turn unless there is money to be made in the plastics business...
The main thing is that, we don't intend to make a profit off of this sale; and any supposed profit from one set will fill in the costs of the others in order to make all keycaps become a reality. As stated in the amended OP, I will do my best to only charge the average cost to everyone once all orders have come in...but we are still waiting for approval to move ahead with Nuka Cola.
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 22 September 2015, 19:38:17
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 23 September 2015, 01:57:45
We are still in a holding pattern. We hope to get a resolution soon. Don't worry, should we get the go ahead, I intend to extend deadlines.
That's great to hear, Zero!
I want my yummy Nuka Colas! Thank you for sticking with it and going the extra mile with this.
Post by: zaarx on Wed, 23 September 2015, 04:18:20
Post by: BrainFlush on Fri, 25 September 2015, 14:37:00
I know this is stressful and was really a downer since it should have been something so simple based on the previous GB.
Just let us all know what's the deal when you hear something back.
As some have stated, with or without the NC cap, we are still in.
Post by: 00zeRO on Fri, 25 September 2015, 19:33:06
Count me still in but hurry FFS. Just teasing!
I know this is stressful and was really a downer since it should have been something so simple based on the previous GB.
Just let us all know what's the deal when you hear something back.
As some have stated, with or without the NC cap, we are still in.
Thanks for the support. If its a no go for NC, I will just relaunch a new IC
Post by: 00zeRO on Mon, 28 September 2015, 20:52:49
Post by: Xenocidal on Tue, 29 September 2015, 02:11:33
My Fallout themed board just wouldn't be the same without that delicious Nuka Cola cap.
Post by: Data on Tue, 29 September 2015, 10:24:52
Official inquiry has now been sent to Bethesda...
I will sacrifice many Deathclaws to the Fallout gods today, so that we may soon bear witness to the Nuka Cola Uprising.
PRAISE BE TO PIP BOY!
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 13:54:23
The future: I plan to begin a new IC thread and I am thinking of running a single Vault 111 keycap in an array of colors. I would like to do an 87 key as well (my own personal wish) but beyond this...who knows.
Seriously thinking of moving on to some other ideas...
Post by: tofgerl on Tue, 29 September 2015, 13:55:41
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 13:58:42
And I'm skipping Fallout 4.
Ouch...
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 29 September 2015, 14:17:03
Just received official word from ZeniMax, parent company from Bethesda. They will not license anything. So, this group buy is now official cancelled. I will allow a day or two for final thoughts before I lock the thread.
The future: I plan to begin a new IC thread and I am thinking of running a single Vault 111 keycap in an array of colors. I would like to do an 87 key as well (my own personal wish) but beyond this...who knows.
Seriously thinking of moving on to some other ideas...
Sorry to hear this. Sort of expected it, but still gutted. Makes me worried about if SP will force us to do the same for Classic Space. I understand for sets run through PMK, since the licensing extends to them for selling after the GB, but for "limited edition" community-organised GB's with a set selling period they should be fine with a letter of liability... I do actually blame SP for this. At the very least they, as the corporation making money from the design, should be the ones sending the letters to copyright / trademark holders. It's beyond ridiculous to expect individual designers to do this.
Post by: tofgerl on Tue, 29 September 2015, 14:21:31
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 29 September 2015, 14:47:26
I disagree. SP is just covering their asses, and that's just good business.
True. But they just made over 500 keycaps with the exact legend on that they now want permission for... after giving price out quotes for the current GB. It might be legally 'covering their asses' but they also look like asses for doing a 180 with their stance.
Post by: tofgerl on Tue, 29 September 2015, 14:48:56
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 14:55:35
I disagree. SP is just covering their asses, and that's just good business.
True. But they just made over 500 keycaps with the exact legend on that they now want permission for... after giving price out quotes for the current GB. It might be legally 'covering their asses' but they also look like asses for doing a 180 with their stance.
Well, I will be covering mine and will be taking my own legends and running with them. Since I am the owner of my Vaults, and plan to expand the numbers of them 21, 87, 111 just to name a few. But honestly, I want a change of scenery for a while. Plus, I heard that it will be a long time before SA keycaps are going to be produced (i.e. Danger Zone set to ship in February 2016)
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Tue, 29 September 2015, 14:58:46
Yea, makes sense.I disagree. SP is just covering their asses, and that's just good business.
True. But they just made over 500 keycaps with the exact legend on that they now want permission for... after giving price out quotes for the current GB. It might be legally 'covering their asses' but they also look like asses for doing a 180 with their stance.
Well, I will be covering mine and will be taking my own legends and running with them. Since I am the owner of my Vaults, and plan to expand the numbers of them 21, 87, 111 just to name a few. But honestly, I want a change of scenery for a while. Plus, I heard that it will be a long time before SA keycaps are going to be produced (i.e. Danger Zone set to ship in February 2016)
Thanks for all your effort man
take some time, we'll be here to snap up your next creations!
Post by: Data on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:07:14
Yea, makes sense.I disagree. SP is just covering their asses, and that's just good business.
True. But they just made over 500 keycaps with the exact legend on that they now want permission for... after giving price out quotes for the current GB. It might be legally 'covering their asses' but they also look like asses for doing a 180 with their stance.
Well, I will be covering mine and will be taking my own legends and running with them. Since I am the owner of my Vaults, and plan to expand the numbers of them 21, 87, 111 just to name a few. But honestly, I want a change of scenery for a while. Plus, I heard that it will be a long time before SA keycaps are going to be produced (i.e. Danger Zone set to ship in February 2016)
Thanks for all your effort man
For sure. :cool:
Post by: ika on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:09:05
I got buyer's remorse over the Series 2 Nukas but after all this went down I decided to just keep them since they probably won't ever be produced again.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:09:48
Yea, makes sense.I disagree. SP is just covering their asses, and that's just good business.
True. But they just made over 500 keycaps with the exact legend on that they now want permission for... after giving price out quotes for the current GB. It might be legally 'covering their asses' but they also look like asses for doing a 180 with their stance.
Well, I will be covering mine and will be taking my own legends and running with them. Since I am the owner of my Vaults, and plan to expand the numbers of them 21, 87, 111 just to name a few. But honestly, I want a change of scenery for a while. Plus, I heard that it will be a long time before SA keycaps are going to be produced (i.e. Danger Zone set to ship in February 2016)
Thanks for all your effort man
+1 to this. You do good work, love the designs.
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:11:38
FWIW the vault designs and Lucky 38 were the reason I bought into this buy :)
I got buyer's remorse over the Series 2 Nukas but after all this went down I decided to just keep them since they probably won't ever be produced again.
Thank you for your support...Lucky 38 sadly will not be produced in its current state. I could press it, but I don't want to risk it.
Post by: linkshine on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:14:00
You know who wouldn't have an issue! CDProjektRed. Those guys are chill. :p
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:20:15
Sorry 00. This sucks, but youll come back with something better.
You know who wouldn't have an issue! CDProjektRed. Those guys are chill. :p
Refresh my memory...who is CDProjektRed?
Post by: trees on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:24:12
Sorry 00. This sucks, but youll come back with something better.
You know who wouldn't have an issue! CDProjektRed. Those guys are chill. :p
Refresh my memory...who is CDProjektRed?
Creators of the Witcher series of games.
Post by: BrainFlush on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:42:31
And I'm skipping Fallout 4.
Ouch...
I already bought it and wouldn't avoid it over this thing.
That being said.
ZERO! Why you giving up man?
The other designs are adequate! Make another random one and run this damn GB already!
We believe in you and I need these caps or FO4 will never be the same!
Yes I am being overly enthusiastic but it's sad to see this all end over one cap.
Even if you don't make another cap or have the NC one, this is still a great cap buy!
That's all I have to say.
Sorry that you might say FI and not do anything, I don't blame you.
I just wish it wasn't so...
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:47:55
And I'm skipping Fallout 4.
Ouch...
I already bought it and wouldn't avoid it over this thing.
That being said.
ZERO! Why you giving up man?
The other designs are adequate! Make another random one and run this damn GB already!
We believe in you and I need these caps or FO4 will never be the same!
Yes I am being overly enthusiastic but it's sad to see this all end over one cap.
Even if you don't make another cap or have the NC one, this is still a great cap buy!
That's all I have to say.
Sorry that you might say FI and not do anything, I don't blame you.
I just wish it wasn't so...
Thanks for the support. Main thing is how far back any SA production will be at this point. I would rather regroup, and Keep It Simple, Silly with a single Vault 111 keycap Group Buy for the Fans out there...
Post by: BrainFlush on Tue, 29 September 2015, 15:55:10
Thanks for the support. Main thing is how far back any SA production will be at this point. I would rather regroup, and Keep It Simple, Silly with a single Vault 111 keycap Group Buy for the Fans out there...
That damn Top Gun buy is really putting them back.
They're talking like 2016 something.
Oh well, $65k give or take is more than this GB. So I don't blame them.
And I think they knew they had plans already. Clearly.
Just keep us posted.
Thanks and sorry again it was such a disappointing end result.
Post by: 00zeRO on Tue, 29 September 2015, 16:14:09
Thanks for the support. Main thing is how far back any SA production will be at this point. I would rather regroup, and Keep It Simple, Silly with a single Vault 111 keycap Group Buy for the Fans out there...
That damn Top Gun buy is really putting them back.
They're talking like 2016 something.
Oh well, $65k give or take is more than this GB. So I don't blame them.
And I think they knew they had plans already. Clearly.
Just keep us posted.
Thanks and sorry again it was such a disappointing end result.
I for one and currently awaiting my DZ set...can't wait.
Post by: TheMalacoda on Tue, 29 September 2015, 17:06:28
I'm disappointed I won't ever own an SA Nuka Cola cap but at the same time I am looking forward to this Vault themed group but you keep mentioning. For sure I will get in on that whenever you are ready.
Post by: ika on Tue, 29 September 2015, 17:47:56
Thanks for the support. Main thing is how far back any SA production will be at this point. I would rather regroup, and Keep It Simple, Silly with a single Vault 111 keycap Group Buy for the Fans out there...
That damn Top Gun buy is really putting them back.
They're talking like 2016 something.
Oh well, $65k give or take is more than this GB. So I don't blame them.
And I think they knew they had plans already. Clearly.
Just keep us posted.
Thanks and sorry again it was such a disappointing end result.
They anticipated February for Danger Zone before they got the numbers for the drop; it's doing really well. Carbon is the one that's really stuffing the production pipe. Over 500 base sets and IIRC over 2k total sets ordered, close to 3k maybe. SA production was already delayed before those mammoth drops came in.
Post by: THSdrummer on Wed, 30 September 2015, 07:48:28
Thanks so much Zero for putting so much effort and time into this GB. It was one I had looked forward to for a while.
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 30 September 2015, 08:42:34
Thanks for the support. Main thing is how far back any SA production will be at this point. I would rather regroup, and Keep It Simple, Silly with a single Vault 111 keycap Group Buy for the Fans out there...
That damn Top Gun buy is really putting them back.
They're talking like 2016 something.
Oh well, $65k give or take is more than this GB. So I don't blame them.
And I think they knew they had plans already. Clearly.
Just keep us posted.
Thanks and sorry again it was such a disappointing end result.
It's Massdrop...
SP are just finishing production of Jukebox now. Carbon got 600+ base sets sold, Danger Zone looks like it'll be close to 500. That's a lot of caps. If they ran as PMK or traditional GB's they'd probably not have sold anywhere close to those numbers and we'd be able to get new sets made sooner. Not disappointed, though. The more sets they sell to the community, the more likely they are to listen to us and treat us like proper customers.
I was actually surprised Ctrl|Alt got Retro SA produced so quickly.
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Wed, 30 September 2015, 08:43:32
Quote
Couldn't be more disappointed in the folks at ZeniMax or Bethesda. Fallout 4 better be damn good to renew my trust in them.
Thanks so much Zero for putting so much effort and time into this GB. It was one I had looked forward to for a while.
I don't see why you would be. No one wants to put their name to something they have no control over, especially when they're as big a name as they are. Its not like they're going after double zero, they just aren't going to sign off on anything. Blame SP if anything.
Quote
It's Massdrop...
SP are just finishing production of Jukebox now. Carbon got 600+ base sets sold, Danger Zone looks like it'll be close to 500. That's a lot of caps. If they ran as PMK or traditional GB's they'd probably not have sold anywhere close to those numbers and we'd be able to get new sets made sooner. Not disappointed, though. The more sets they sell to the community, the more likely they are to listen to us and treat us like proper customers.
Yeah I think people are totally underestimating the power of massdrop as a platform. It brings in so many people that might not be totally secure with traditional group buys, or are just casual buyers lurking the mech keyboard page. Just look at the amount of keysets that sell despite already being available for similar prices on ebay/mechmarket/classified/mechanicalkeyboards.com/etc.
Post by: atectatifern on Wed, 30 September 2015, 18:26:27
Post by: 00zeRO on Wed, 30 September 2015, 19:16:27
Bought these from the last GB. Had never played or bought Fallout but was interested in it, but can't give this company any money after they stomped on this.
They didn't stomp. They just didn't give a nod to my use of their rightful logo. We are all free to vote with our wallets, but this should not make anyone decide not to enjoy their products. I will still produce Vault # keys as well as other designs yet to be discovered...please give Bethesda a break.
Post by: atectatifern on Wed, 30 September 2015, 19:26:08
Post by: atectatifern on Wed, 30 September 2015, 19:38:52
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 01 October 2015, 01:15:09
Bought these from the last GB. Had never played or bought Fallout but was interested in it, but can't give this company any money after they stomped on this.
They didn't stomp. They just didn't give a nod to my use of their rightful logo. We are all free to vote with our wallets, but this should not make anyone decide not to enjoy their products. I will still produce Vault # keys as well as other designs yet to be discovered...please give Bethesda a break.
Yup, it's not really their fault. There's a massive gap between "We'll sue you if you use our stuff!" and "We won't give permission to use our stuff explicitly because that sets a precedent that can be taken advantage of". SP is forcing designers to do something nigh on impossible, just to cover their asses in case a company gets upset. This is actually brought on by their new design for the way they want to run PMK, so they can sell sets for money after any GB...
If you want to boycott somebody because of this, boycott SP (particularly PMK), not Bethesda.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 01 October 2015, 13:33:34
Yup, it's not really their fault. There's a massive gap between "We'll sue you if you use our stuff!" and "We won't give permission to use our stuff explicitly because that sets a precedent that can be taken advantage of". SP is forcing designers to do something nigh on impossible, just to cover their asses in case a company gets upset. This is actually brought on by their new design for the way they want to run PMK, so they can sell sets for money after any GB...
If you want to boycott somebody because of this, boycott SP (particularly PMK), not Bethesda.
Well said. Makes sense to me. :thumb:
Post by: MaNiFeX on Thu, 01 October 2015, 14:02:19
Bought these from the last GB. Had never played or bought Fallout but was interested in it, but can't give this company any money after they stomped on this.
They didn't stomp. They just didn't give a nod to my use of their rightful logo. We are all free to vote with our wallets, but this should not make anyone decide not to enjoy their products. I will still produce Vault # keys as well as other designs yet to be discovered...please give Bethesda a break.
Yup, it's not really their fault. There's a massive gap between "We'll sue you if you use our stuff!" and "We won't give permission to use our stuff explicitly because that sets a precedent that can be taken advantage of". SP is forcing designers to do something nigh on impossible, just to cover their asses in case a company gets upset. This is actually brought on by their new design for the way they want to run PMK, so they can sell sets for money after any GB...
If you want to boycott somebody because of this, boycott SP (particularly PMK), not Bethesda.
Let's put this into some perspective, please. SP is a very small company based out of a very small town in remote Washington state. The fact they are still able to make a business off of POS keysets gives us the opportunity to make our own runs of keys.
Consider they have limited machines that not only need care and maintenance, but cost $10,000s of dollars to replace. Dies aren't cheap and neither is the cost of keeping employees running these machines. Procuring plastics in such a wide range of colors and keeping them in the workflow process must be a bear of a task in and of its self.
Now, imagine running this niche company and all of the sudden someone is asking you to produce copyrighted materials. Say, Mickey Mouse, Bart Simpson, the Game of Thrones house symbols, Sonic the Hedgehog, or Vault Boy? Are you willing to risk your business for the risk of being sued for not licensing the product?
I'm sure if someone wanted to put up money and license the images from Bethesda, there wouldn't be an issue.
Obviously Zero won't take on the risk, or he'd sign the contract he was asked to sign. It's not as easy as, 'they won't let me use the image.' People's businesses and personal finances are at stake here. I'm sure there's a Chinese company that doesn't give a **** about use, but then there's still the distribution of said product, putting any seller at risk as well.
Totally sucks. I wanted me some more Fallout themed caps and for everyone to rejoice in the fun. It's a risk cluster**** that could probably be avoided if companies weren't so willing to sue over the use of their images. Greed is inherent in the American Capitalist Economy, if you can't tell.
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Thu, 01 October 2015, 14:29:22
Bought these from the last GB. Had never played or bought Fallout but was interested in it, but can't give this company any money after they stomped on this.
They didn't stomp. They just didn't give a nod to my use of their rightful logo. We are all free to vote with our wallets, but this should not make anyone decide not to enjoy their products. I will still produce Vault # keys as well as other designs yet to be discovered...please give Bethesda a break.
Yup, it's not really their fault. There's a massive gap between "We'll sue you if you use our stuff!" and "We won't give permission to use our stuff explicitly because that sets a precedent that can be taken advantage of". SP is forcing designers to do something nigh on impossible, just to cover their asses in case a company gets upset. This is actually brought on by their new design for the way they want to run PMK, so they can sell sets for money after any GB...
If you want to boycott somebody because of this, boycott SP (particularly PMK), not Bethesda.
Let's put this into some perspective, please. SP is a very small company based out of a very small town in remote Washington state. The fact they are still able to make a business off of POS keysets gives us the opportunity to make our own runs of keys.
Consider they have limited machines that not only need care and maintenance, but cost $10,000s of dollars to replace. Dies aren't cheap and neither is the cost of keeping employees running these machines. Procuring plastics in such a wide range of colors and keeping them in the workflow process must be a bear of a task in and of its self.
Now, imagine running this niche company and all of the sudden someone is asking you to produce copyrighted materials. Say, Mickey Mouse, Bart Simpson, the Game of Thrones house symbols, Sonic the Hedgehog, or Vault Boy? Are you willing to risk your business for the risk of being sued for not licensing the product?
Totally agree, and the extra exposure from Massdrop and bigger keysets definitely have them thinking "why bother" when it comes to issues like this. They're already completely backed up, they might as well take orders that aren't so risky.
Post by: 00zeRO on Thu, 01 October 2015, 14:39:12
Bought these from the last GB. Had never played or bought Fallout but was interested in it, but can't give this company any money after they stomped on this.
They didn't stomp. They just didn't give a nod to my use of their rightful logo. We are all free to vote with our wallets, but this should not make anyone decide not to enjoy their products. I will still produce Vault # keys as well as other designs yet to be discovered...please give Bethesda a break.
Yup, it's not really their fault. There's a massive gap between "We'll sue you if you use our stuff!" and "We won't give permission to use our stuff explicitly because that sets a precedent that can be taken advantage of". SP is forcing designers to do something nigh on impossible, just to cover their asses in case a company gets upset. This is actually brought on by their new design for the way they want to run PMK, so they can sell sets for money after any GB...
If you want to boycott somebody because of this, boycott SP (particularly PMK), not Bethesda.
Let's put this into some perspective, please. SP is a very small company based out of a very small town in remote Washington state. The fact they are still able to make a business off of POS keysets gives us the opportunity to make our own runs of keys.
Consider they have limited machines that not only need care and maintenance, but cost $10,000s of dollars to replace. Dies aren't cheap and neither is the cost of keeping employees running these machines. Procuring plastics in such a wide range of colors and keeping them in the workflow process must be a bear of a task in and of its self.
Now, imagine running this niche company and all of the sudden someone is asking you to produce copyrighted materials. Say, Mickey Mouse, Bart Simpson, the Game of Thrones house symbols, Sonic the Hedgehog, or Vault Boy? Are you willing to risk your business for the risk of being sued for not licensing the product?
I'm sure if someone wanted to put up money and license the images from Bethesda, there wouldn't be an issue.
Obviously Zero won't take on the risk, or he'd sign the contract he was asked to sign. It's not as easy as, 'they won't let me use the image.' People's businesses and personal finances are at stake here. I'm sure there's a Chinese company that doesn't give a **** about use, but then there's still the distribution of said product, putting any seller at risk as well.
Totally sucks. I wanted me some more Fallout themed caps and for everyone to rejoice in the fun. It's a risk cluster**** that could probably be avoided if companies weren't so willing to sue over the use of their images. Greed is inherent in the American Capitalist Economy, if you can't tell.
For the record, I was never asked to sign a contract. But, you are absolutely correct, I won't sign one because at the end of the day, it is not worth it. I have my own designs without worrying about infringing upon someone else's. My course, as it stands is to walk away from anything that is not merely fair use. Vault keys are fair use.
There is fun to be had for sure, just not with Nuka Cola or Lucky 38...and on this note, I am closing the subject and locking this thread. Thanks for all your support, and I look forward to the next Vault keycap group buy coming soon... :thumb: