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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ehird on Sat, 17 October 2009, 15:57:48

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sat, 17 October 2009, 15:57:48

Colemakkers — do you do the usual Colemak remapping of backspace to the caps-lock position (control on the HHKB)? If so, where do you put Control?

Same question applies to anyone else who remaps that key, of course.

Thanks! :)

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:13:38

Good question. I've avoided using my HHKBlite2 for just that reason.
I think remapping Control as Backspace and left 'Windows' to be Control would suit me best.

This is the problem with the HHKB layout, it's all or nothing. I plan to buy a Pro version one day, but it will take a lot of adjusting to and probably a good few workarounds like this.

I'm trying my Lite now and keep getting italic effect popping up where I hit Ctrl-I by mistake, LOL.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:21:19

Isn't the Lite 2 rubber dome? Maybe that's why you're not using it :)

Anyway, as a Mac user, I need Control, Option (Windows) and Command (Alt) to be immediately accessible, as they're all used commonly (although Control less so). Control in the Caps Lock position isn't actually ergonomic, anyway; it's the traditional thing, but ow, my pinky. (This is why I love the position of Command; I can hit it with my thumb no problems.)

I would prefer to have all the modifier keys at both sides, though... the HHKB is more popular than the Realforce 87U, I appreciate the reduced layout and it's also much more aesthetically pleasing, but this is basically a deal-breaker for me.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:28:44

i use HHKB Pro 2 with colemak
i just leave ctrl as it is
unlike ISO, the HHKB layout puts backspace so close, i dont need it in the "capslock position"

works perfect
and no autohotkey or anything needed

the problem is going back to a filco with colemak
i have to use autohotkey to get "capslock position" to be Ctrl

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:35:12

Quote from: ehird;126465

Isn't the Lite 2 rubber dome? Maybe that's why you're not using it :)

That too! :lol:

I've played with it some more, and the backspace issue isn't so bad. I keep hitting Control when I make an error, and luckily most of the time that simply does nothing. When I see that the backspace didn't happen I just have to reach for the key above Enter which I have set to work as backspace via the jumpers.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:39:57

Indeed, I'm not focused specifically on making the Caps Lock/Control position into Backspace; it's just that I find having Control there inadequate (and so I addressed it to the Colemak users, since they're the type to most remap that key and thus move Control somewhere else).

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:43:53

nah, i hated it at first, but got really used to it.  copy/paste without leaving home row makes it worth it.

EDIT but just today something bad happened.  i was pushing on the left side of the casing, admiring how sturdy it was, when it 'creaked'.  the right side doesn't creak!  so i just took it apart, and yeah, it's nothing more than tolerances and plastic and me pushing on it... the right side MOVES just as much when i push it, but no 'creaking' noise.  oh man.

EDIT and they are DIP switches, not JUMPERS... not sure how ripster is going to make fun of this when he finds it.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:53:00

Convenient, sure, but the ergonomics behind it say no, that's bad for your pinky. (I'm assuming I'd remap it to Command because, you know, that's where all the shortcuts are in OS X. If it was Control I wouldn't really use it enough for it to matter, so it'd be doubly-ridiculous to have it in such a prominent spot.)

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 17 October 2009, 17:54:55

ergonomics for what is bad?

also, i came back in to say what i forgot to: that i never remapped my capslock to begin with when switching to colemak, not until right before i was on the hhkb anyway.  just never really caught onto the idea.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sat, 17 October 2009, 18:14:34

Control in the Caps Lock position.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 17 October 2009, 18:59:43

Quote from: webwit;126473

The HHKB simply lacks two extra modifier keys to shift stuff around.

Or does it???...

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sun, 18 October 2009, 07:28:45

That extra Control is photoshopped, right?

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 18 October 2009, 09:37:57

much of that picture is

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Sun, 18 October 2009, 09:40:15

Looks normal to me apart from the extra Control and Fn keys.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: skriefal on Sun, 18 October 2009, 09:54:31

The bottom-row Alt/Meta keys are also of a different size than on a normal HHKB2.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 18 October 2009, 10:00:46

Quote from: ehird;126563

That extra Control is photoshopped, right?

And a few other improvements (?):
Extra Control;
Extra Fn;
Extra set of cursor controls in the WASD area;
Alt and Command keys same size so they can be swapped;
Key above Return is Backspace rather Del by default.

If the Fujitsu guys are reading, no need to send me any royalties when you make these, just send me a couple of freebies. :lol:

Quote from: ripster;126592

Just noticed it says Professional III.  Does it have the DIP switches on the back Raj?!?!?

No, I've decided jumpers are the new DIP switches.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: rdh on Sun, 18 October 2009, 12:47:02

Quote from: Rajagra;126480

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5215&d=1255823941)

I don't think the BS key should be so prominent; very few of us seem to have difficulty typing BS.  An awful lot of posts here seem to consist solely of BS.

I do like having Fn keys on both sides.  Not sure if I'd find the right Control key you added useful or annoying, though.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 18 October 2009, 12:50:59

i like the left <> as Fn anyway, they should just make it the main Fn key
because you can push it with your thumb

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 18 October 2009, 12:56:06

I converted my HHKB to JKLI cursor movement using Rajagra's excellent script, slightly modified. I use the key left to the spacebar as a Fn key for Autohotkey. Ctrl is left where it was, Backspace is on Fn+Space. My thumbs are on those keys anyway.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:02:51

hmm, there *is* a seemingly constant need to use BS. some would argue that we should support even more BS... for example, there should be BS on both sides. or even that the space should be split, and part of it devoted entirely to BS. this would ensure that BS is always within easy reach :)

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: rdh on Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:14:21

Quote from: msiegel;126638

or even that the space should be split, and part of it devoted entirely to BS. this would ensure that BS is always within easy reach :)

For $39.50, you can get (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160313800719) a set of five boards with Easy-Reach BS.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:16:06

Quote from: rdh;126643

For $39.50, you can get (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160313800719) a set of five boards with Easy-Reach BS.

wow, i could type BS very easily with that! ;)

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: rdh on Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:30:44

Quote from: webwit;126650

Very nice. This is a nice improvement of the keyboard without breaking any standards.

I couldn't say if the "Erase-Eaze" feature Compaq licensed for those boards has any relation to a similar feature on the IBM M15s, or even which came first.

The Compaq boards are somewhat cheaper, though.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:35:29

Quote from: rdh;126643

For $39.50, you can get (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160313800719) a set of five boards with Easy-Reach BS.

Or 5 for 99p (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170394732572), with uber-leet blank keys!

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:45:29

Quote from: Rajagra;126652

Or 5 for 99p (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170394732572), with uber-leet blank keys!

that's pretty cool, despite the bizarre case :)

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Mon, 19 October 2009, 16:48:49

So, basically, there's no practicality in remapping the HHKB's Control key unless you're swapping it with one of the other modifier keys?

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 19 October 2009, 16:57:45

Quote from: ehird;127029

So, basically, there's no practicality in remapping the HHKB's Control key?

fixed, and yes.

Title: HHKB Pro 2 and the Control key
Post by: ehird on Mon, 19 October 2009, 17:05:32

I don't see what the issue would be with swapping it with Alt or the Windows key.