Post by: themagicat on Sun, 27 September 2015, 11:11:45
Thx
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 27 September 2015, 11:46:35
Post by: nmur on Sun, 27 September 2015, 12:15:44
Post by: Polymer on Sun, 27 September 2015, 12:17:44
I'm looking at getting a hhkb because I like the layout and form factor. How do the switches feel, in a very detailed way. Do the feel like there are only 2 positions, fully up and fully down like most rubber dome keyboards? Is there a force chart out there just like there is for cherry?
Thx
They will feel just like a normal rubber dome keyboard except smoother and a lot more stable. The bottom out will feel solid and exact without all the extra play...Responsiveness will feel excellent because it'll actuate before you hit bottom. You also get a keyboard that is a lot more reliable...plus PBT keycaps...
Post by: TimIsABat on Sun, 27 September 2015, 12:22:59
Post by: themagicat on Sun, 27 September 2015, 16:46:16
Post by: Bromono on Sun, 27 September 2015, 17:09:28
Does it feel like it's "popping down"?
mmmm.. no not popping down, more like a pop up. after then initial actuation point at the top, it has a smooth light linear feel. But when it comes back up, it is quick and crisp.
Post by: themagicat on Sun, 27 September 2015, 18:00:33
Post by: Air tree on Sun, 27 September 2015, 18:02:30
OK thx, I'm gonna get a hhkb pro 2 in a month or two now... When I have the money. Unless the pro 3 comes out(hopefully)I wouldn't hold your hopes up for the pro 3, PFU seems to be really quiet, or have just given up on the pro 3. :p
Post by: themagicat on Sun, 27 September 2015, 18:03:16
I can dream :)OK thx, I'm gonna get a hhkb pro 2 in a month or two now... When I have the money. Unless the pro 3 comes out(hopefully)I wouldn't hold your hopes up for the pro 3, PFU seems to be really quiet, or have just given up on the pro 3.
Post by: raymogi on Sun, 27 September 2015, 19:12:24
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 27 September 2015, 19:33:48
[attachimg=1]
And here is a force-displacement curve for a Cherry mx switch, the "clear":
[attachimg=2]
I like the fact that Topre switches have a decrease in force after the actuation point. In contrast, Cherry mx switches have a continuing increase in force after the actuation point. The slope of force vs displacement is especially high in the mx clear switch. I tend to bottom out my keystrokes, and so I find mx clear switches rather fatiguing. Topre switches provide tactile feedback while being more relaxing to use.
In fact, to me, Topre switches feel a bit like playing a real piano. This sensation is not nearly as pronounced in a Topre switch as it is in an IBM beam spring, but the subtle sensation is there.
To put this into perspective, I would rank switches I have used roughly as follows:
IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F) > Silenced Topre 45g ~ Silenced Topre 55g > Topre 55g ~ Topre 45g > IBM membrane buckling spring (Model M) > Orange Alps > Monterey Blues> White Alps > Matias Click > Matias Quiet > Space Invader Clicky > Space Invader Tactile >>> Cherry mx (Brown > Green > Blue > Red > Black > Clear).
Post by: byker on Sun, 27 September 2015, 20:24:13
Post by: daerid on Sun, 27 September 2015, 22:00:13
Personally my pref is: Topre 55g > Stock MX Clears > Topre 45g case-mounted > *
To each their own.
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 28 September 2015, 08:35:08
Interesting order Hypersphere. Why do you dislike MX Clears so much? Have you tried ergo clears? I find it interesting because I prefer topre, but found that ergo clears were similar in feel (although still not as good as topre to me).The distance between my rankings is not large. It's not that I dislike mx clears so much; it's that I like other switches much more.
I think the issue for me with mx clears is that I find them fatiguing, because I like to bottom out my keystrokes. I've seen many positive recommendations for ergo clears, and I would like to try them sometime. However, for now, I have more than enough keyboards with IBM Model F, Topre, and various Alps-type switches to keep me occupied.
Post by: byker on Mon, 28 September 2015, 12:40:44
Interesting order Hypersphere. Why do you dislike MX Clears so much? Have you tried ergo clears? I find it interesting because I prefer topre, but found that ergo clears were similar in feel (although still not as good as topre to me).The distance between my rankings is not large. It's not that I dislike mx clears so much; it's that I like other switches much more.
I think the issue for me with mx clears is that I find them fatiguing, because I like to bottom out my keystrokes. I've seen many positive recommendations for ergo clears, and I would like to try them sometime. However, for now, I have more than enough keyboards with IBM Model F, Topre, and various Alps-type switches to keep me occupied.
Oh okay, that makes sense. I didn't like stock clears much (found them fatiguing also), but ergoclears were quite an improvement in my opinion!
Post by: themagicat on Tue, 06 October 2015, 19:36:20
Basically how much does it feel like a standard rubber dome?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 06 October 2015, 19:37:50
One last question... If you press it slowly, can you make it so it activates without bottoming out(because I hate the feeling of lack of control when typing on a rubber dome... Where you can't stop the keypress at any point without bottoming out)If you want tactility where you don't have to bottom out, I recommend MX clears.
Basically how much does it feel like a standard rubber dome?
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 06 October 2015, 19:38:54
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 06 October 2015, 19:56:33
the only contestant i've seen mentioned is some old Keytronic board, but the lower build/switch quality made Topre the winner in the end..
Post by: themagicat on Tue, 06 October 2015, 20:00:17
More specifically the feeling of once you break the initial resistance, the key pulls itself down all the way. Does a topre feel this way?
Post by: themagicat on Tue, 06 October 2015, 20:03:04
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 06 October 2015, 20:37:15
Right now I'm deciding between the pok3r with clears and the hhkb if that helps at all.Pok3r is a lot cheaper buy in to find out what you may or may not like.
Post by: themagicat on Tue, 06 October 2015, 20:46:02
Post by: Polymer on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:00:45
Is it possible to not bottom out topres when typing? I usually bottom out... But hate the feeling on rubber domes where you HAVE to bottom out.
More specifically the feeling of once you break the initial resistance, the key pulls itself down all the way. Does a topre feel this way?
Yes...it is the same rubber cup..you break the resistance and it falls off so you're forced to bottom out.
Does it feel exactly like a normal rubber dome keyboard? No...the way the resistance falls off IS identical..but the solid feel and stability make it feel like a difference experience which is why some people really enjoy it..but if what you don't like feeling is that bubble breaking, this is a rubber cup, it'll do the same thing.
Post by: themagicat on Tue, 06 October 2015, 22:16:46
Post by: Altis on Tue, 06 October 2015, 23:15:46
One last question... If you press it slowly, can you make it so it activates without bottoming out(because I hate the feeling of lack of control when typing on a rubber dome... Where you can't stop the keypress at any point without bottoming out)If you want tactility where you don't have to bottom out, I recommend MX clears.
Basically how much does it feel like a standard rubber dome?
I believe that is the sole purpose of the MX Clear switch. It remains the only switch I can type on normally and at high speeds without bottoming out.
OP, it doesn't sound much like you'll enjoy Topre, but who knows... They are quite nice to type on, and that's from many people who have experimented with a wide range of premium boards.
The happy compromise would be Zealios switches.
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 07 October 2015, 02:36:52
The feeling is quite nice - tactile, not clicky, smooth, pleasant thock sound.
Post by: Polymer on Wed, 07 October 2015, 03:10:18
Although it is possible to type without bottoming out (on an HHKB at least), why would you? There is very little distance left to bottom out after actuation, and most of the force is required to reach the actuation point, after which the keys just naturally bottom out.
The feeling is quite nice - tactile, not clicky, smooth, pleasant thock sound.
IMO, it isn't possible to type without bottoming out on Topre without completely sacrificing speed..I've seen people type in a really stupid and slow way to do it but what is the point?
You can type and lightly bottom..but who really cares? You're not losing efficiency...and really, that whole sound of bottoming out is one of more pleasant aspects of Topre..
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 07 October 2015, 04:22:10
Although it is possible to type without bottoming out (on an HHKB at least), why would you? There is very little distance left to bottom out after actuation, and most of the force is required to reach the actuation point, after which the keys just naturally bottom out.
The feeling is quite nice - tactile, not clicky, smooth, pleasant thock sound.
IMO, it isn't possible to type without bottoming out on Topre without completely sacrificing speed..I've seen people type in a really stupid and slow way to do it but what is the point?
You can type and lightly bottom..but who really cares? You're not losing efficiency...and really, that whole sound of bottoming out is one of more pleasant aspects of Topre..
+1
Post by: Macsmasher on Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:17:39
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 09 October 2015, 05:17:38
Further, bottoming out on Topre isn't the same as Cherry. I initially moved to Topre because my finger joints ached at the end of a long day on Cherry browns because of the hard landing. Bottoming out on Topre is a soft landing. Since moving to Topre years ago, no more aching finger joints. Cherry is like jogging in your dress shoes. Topre is like jogging in running shoes.
You can put O-rings on MX keycaps to dampen the bottoming out a bit.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Fri, 09 October 2015, 05:48:32
Post by: themagicat on Wed, 21 October 2015, 11:57:41
Post by: daerid on Wed, 21 October 2015, 12:05:02
I ended up getting the hhkb. And I am very happy with it! Mostly because of the layout. The switch bottom out feel is fabulous! Though I have noticed that some keys are rather scratchy... Does that go away after a bit of typing? It's not terrible but I would rather it not be. It's only really the fn key.
It should, yeah. Fresh Topre domes are a bit sticky, and the capacitive spring underneath tends to stick and make the switches feel a bit scratchy. It usually goes away after about a week or so (on the outside).
Post by: Dongulator on Wed, 21 October 2015, 23:03:10
Post by: Sinzz on Sat, 24 October 2015, 01:43:33
Post by: ander on Sat, 24 October 2015, 02:41:57
You can talk about them from now till doomsday, but there's no substitute for actually trying them. It's a very complex, personal thing. It's not even about how they respond as discrete units, but rather how a set of them responds to your individual typing style, under all your fingers.
Anyway, TMC, I'm glad you're happy with your choice.
Post by: Axollott on Sat, 24 October 2015, 03:36:03
Post by: derb2k2 on Sat, 24 October 2015, 05:05:50
But with all seriousness, I think Rowdy said it well with "natural" bottom out.