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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ideus on Thu, 01 October 2015, 22:42:00

Title: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Thu, 01 October 2015, 22:42:00
They rock! because ...
They are wasted spaces? Ok, under what logic?
It is just marketing. Really?
They are part of the overall design and the reasoning is ....
I'd preferred them to be symmetric, because ...

Your own argument.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: FrostyToast on Thu, 01 October 2015, 22:44:08
It just makes it look better aesthetically.
It's the same reason why people like WKL over winkey.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: njbair on Thu, 01 October 2015, 23:00:00
I think it looks cool in its own way. But not cool enough to compensate for the lost functionality and/or muscle memory learning curve.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: tararais on Thu, 01 October 2015, 23:01:59
I think it's due to the Unix layout, but either way there's not much they could put there, since they already committed to making Caps Lock on the Fn layer. Didn't take me long to get used to either way.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: fishcola on Thu, 01 October 2015, 23:45:31
don't own one, but it's beautiful. Like a better way to manage the gap between ctrl and alt on winkeyless boards. It's what makes 60% cherry boards ugly by comparison.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: jonathanyu on Fri, 02 October 2015, 00:54:35
don't own one, but it's beautiful. Like a better way to manage the gap between ctrl and alt on winkeyless boards. It's what makes 60% cherry boards ugly by comparison.
how about 60% cherry board in hhkb layout.  for example, the gon hhkb
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Air tree on Fri, 02 October 2015, 00:58:33
don't own one, but it's beautiful. Like a better way to manage the gap between ctrl and alt on winkeyless boards. It's what makes 60% cherry boards ugly by comparison.
how about 60% cherry board in hhkb layout.  for example, the gon hhkb
Cherry in a HHKB layout is just a cherry board trying to appear better than it is...
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:18:05
These spaces are like cute things women do, they are nice ornaments.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:20:37
HHKB is perfection, no explanation/opinion authorised.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: MajorMajor on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:30:32
Not a fan of the tiny Alt for the sake of aesthetics, not even to save space.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: sth on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:30:59
HHKB is perfection, no explanation/opinion authorised.


actually there is a lot of explanation from an authoritative source - the designer. http://deskthority.net/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard#External_links


Not a fan of the tiny Alt for the sake of aesthetics, not even to save space.

found the emacs user
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:35:22
HHKB is perfection, no explanation/opinion authorised.
actually there is a lot of explanation from an authoritative source - the designer. http://deskthority.net/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard#External_links

Did not read, see previous post.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:42:44
(http://member.wide.ad.jp/%7Ewada/name.trans.gif)
Dr. Eiti Wada

(http://member.wide.ad.jp/%7Ewada/wada.gif)
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: keshley on Fri, 02 October 2015, 08:06:38
Since I prefer Control next to A, I don't miss the corner keys at all.

Aesthetically, I think it lends itself to the minimalist 60% ideology quite well.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 09:06:35
I wrote to Dr. Wada today, and he gracefully answered:

 Dear Eric
 
It's nice to receive email from HHKB enthusiasts in the world like you!
 
> There have been rumors on a possible upgrade of the current HHKB II
> design. I would like to have your expert and insider opinion about a
> possible new version of your design; also, if you have a list of design
> changes, either, if the upcoming version is an actual project, or to
> be included in future versions.
 
I am for these almost 20 years just one of happy users of HHKB.
 
HHKB is solely developed by PFU. I don't have any information. I would also like to have good news too.
 
Happy Hacking
 
Eiiti Wada
 
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: sth on Fri, 02 October 2015, 09:07:54
I wrote to Dr. Wada today, and he gracefully answered:

 Dear Eric
 
It's nice to receive email from HHKB enthusiasts in the world like you!
 
> There have been rumors on a possible upgrade of the current HHKB II
> design. I would like to have your expert and insider opinion about a
> possible new version of your design; also, if you have a list of design
> changes, either, if the upcoming version is an actual project, or to
> be included in future versions.
 
I am for these almost 20 years just one of happy users of HHKB.
 
HHKB is solely developed by PFU. I don't have any information. I would also like to have good news too.
 
Happy Hacking
 
Eiiti Wada
 

:)
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 02 October 2015, 09:38:51
Not enough space in the bottom right corner. :D
[attach=1]

(the bottom right corner is also where I put the controller so that the keyboard does not need to be as high as a HHKB is in the back)
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 09:40:59
Not enough space in the bottom right corner. :D
(Attachment Link)

(the bottom right corner is also where I put the controller so that the keyboard does not need to be as high as a HHKB is in the back)

What keyboard is this?
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:01:51
Suits me just fine. Don't need any superfluous keys, so it avoids confusion to omit what isn't needed.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: absyrd on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:23:13
I thought the bottom corners were used for putting out your cigarettes while you chain-smoke coding for days on end.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:31:25
I thought the bottom corners were used for putting out your cigarettes while you chain-smoke coding for days on end.

This is very cool.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: absyrd on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:32:45
I thought the bottom corners were used for putting out your cigarettes while you chain-smoke coding for days on end.

This is very cool.

****. Should have patented built-in keyboard ashtrays before opening my mouth. LZ-LCE (Lung Cancer Edition) incoming...
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:36:34
I thought the bottom corners were used for putting out your cigarettes while you chain-smoke coding for days on end.

This is very cool.

****. Should have patented built-in keyboard ashtrays before opening my mouth. LZ-LCE (Lung Cancer Edition) incoming...

Too late, I am working on claims and sketching drawings for the application, but I can share inventor's rights with you, FPU patent is in the state of the art section.

 :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Herothereu on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:54:07
Wasted space.

Should have bought a Novatouch.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: boTy on Fri, 02 October 2015, 12:24:29
It definitely looks nice, but i think it could be used for something useful.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ctm on Fri, 02 October 2015, 17:09:56
I used to think it was a big deal because having two Fn keys on bottom row was important for me. Later I learnt the idea of dual role spacebar and now I think I am fine with only fours modifiers at bottom row.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: lakiozoon on Fri, 02 October 2015, 17:18:06
If it weren't for those empty spaces, I probably would have bought one already.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: jwaz on Fri, 02 October 2015, 17:33:22
I wrote to Dr. Wada today, and he gracefully answered:

 Dear Eric
 
It's nice to receive email from HHKB enthusiasts in the world like you!
 
> There have been rumors on a possible upgrade of the current HHKB II
> design. I would like to have your expert and insider opinion about a
> possible new version of your design; also, if you have a list of design
> changes, either, if the upcoming version is an actual project, or to
> be included in future versions.
 
I am for these almost 20 years just one of happy users of HHKB.
 
HHKB is solely developed by PFU. I don't have any information. I would also like to have good news too.
 
Happy Hacking
 
Eiiti Wada
 

That's RAD. :cool:
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 18:06:58
If it weren't for those empty spaces, I probably would have bought one already.

The void is powerful, it can even take our deepest desires and captures them into a very, very big tag price.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Fri, 02 October 2015, 18:21:57
I thought the bottom corners were used for putting out your cigarettes while you chain-smoke coding for days on end.

This is the most cyberpunk thing I've ever heard
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Norman_the_Owl on Fri, 02 October 2015, 21:51:44
I could never game with one
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 02 October 2015, 21:58:56
I could never game with one

And you never will with that attitude.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: tararais on Fri, 02 October 2015, 22:12:12
I could never game with one
 
I don't have a problem playing tons of league or MGSV, but RTS games are probably out of the question.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:22:01
I think it is very handsome.  I think they were trying to stand out from all of the Poker and V60's, and I think they accomplished that.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:43:50
I think it is very handsome.  I think they were trying to stand out from all of the Poker and V60's, and I think they accomplished that.

I think the HHKB was designed when most of current 60% keyboard did not exist yet; thus, they do it for other reasons than competitors. Kishsavers existed though, with a version in a sixty layout. But that was a complete different animal. Anyway, there were more keyboards with empty spaces by then, maybe it was just because UNIX users did not need any other modifier at the bottom.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Sat, 03 October 2015, 04:25:24
I think it is very handsome.  I think they were trying to stand out from all of the Poker and V60's, and I think they accomplished that.

I think the HHKB was designed when most of current 60% keyboard did not exist yet; thus, they do it for other reasons than competitors. Kishsavers existed though, with a version in a sixty layout. But that was a complete different animal. Anyway, there were more keyboards with empty spaces by then, maybe it was just because UNIX users did not need any other modifier at the bottom.

I'm actually fairly surprised that the OEM's haven't started copying the hhkb layout yet in their 60% boards

Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: sth on Sat, 03 October 2015, 04:28:57

I think it is very handsome.  I think they were trying to stand out from all of the Poker and V60's, and I think they accomplished that.

I think the HHKB was designed when most of current 60% keyboard did not exist yet; thus, they do it for other reasons than competitors. Kishsavers existed though, with a version in a sixty layout. But that was a complete different animal. Anyway, there were more keyboards with empty spaces by then, maybe it was just because UNIX users did not need any other modifier at the bottom.

I'm actually fairly surprised that the OEM's haven't started copying the hhkb layout yet in their 60% boards



they're not clever enough to do anything that isn't stock-standard ansi or the occasional ISO layout. maybe the pure gets an extra point for the split shift, but most of them don't want to gamble on alternative layouts because: a) the market is tiny, b) we're a fickle bunch of bastards and c) nobody ever got fired for buying ANSI.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Sat, 03 October 2015, 05:07:25

I think it is very handsome.  I think they were trying to stand out from all of the Poker and V60's, and I think they accomplished that.

I think the HHKB was designed when most of current 60% keyboard did not exist yet; thus, they do it for other reasons than competitors. Kishsavers existed though, with a version in a sixty layout. But that was a complete different animal. Anyway, there were more keyboards with empty spaces by then, maybe it was just because UNIX users did not need any other modifier at the bottom.

I'm actually fairly surprised that the OEM's haven't started copying the hhkb layout yet in their 60% boards



they're not clever enough to do anything that isn't stock-standard ansi or the occasional ISO layout. maybe the pure gets an extra point for the split shift, but most of them don't want to gamble on alternative layouts because: a) the market is tiny, b) we're a fickle bunch of bastards and c) nobody ever got fired for buying ANSI.

Yeah I guess the marketing department would rather not answer the mouth breathers 24/7 asking where the caps lock key is
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Bucake on Sat, 03 October 2015, 06:45:48
the mouth breathers
rofl

OT: i certainly like the aesthetics of the hhkb.
pretty sure i wouldn't miss the keys in the corners. on my RF i've had Ctrl switched with CL forever. my older keyboards also have the Ctrl where most keyboards nowadays use the CL.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 14:04:35
Standardization improves efficiency; if keyboard manufacturers had pushed their efficiency for mechanical keyboards production, instead of going the easiest route of rubber domes, the world would be a more ergonomic place for PC users, nowadays. The problem is that everything about mechanical keyboards is considered premium and manufacturers care not about standardization and efficiency, the result is a fragmented market, that it is already small, broken into tiny niches that increase costs. The HHKB and many other specialty boards are examples of that. But, who cares, we are keyboard collectors that do not care about prices, don't we?
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 06 October 2015, 00:22:48
Fine.

I do notice that the right size space is larger than the left side space, but otherwise it's little different to the spaces between, say, Ctrl and Alt on a 101 key keyboard.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Norman_the_Owl on Wed, 07 October 2015, 06:21:34
I could never game with one

And you never will with that attitude.
Can't crouch without a lower left control key
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Norman_the_Owl on Wed, 07 October 2015, 06:21:59
I could never game with one
 
I don't have a problem playing tons of league or MGSV, but RTS games are probably out of the question.
Or fps. Good luck crouching
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: keshley on Wed, 07 October 2015, 06:50:41
I could never game with one
 
I don't have a problem playing tons of league or MGSV, but RTS games are probably out of the question.
Or fps. Good luck crouching

Unless you don't use that key for crouching. Everybody is different.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Wed, 07 October 2015, 07:33:40
I could never game with one
 
I don't have a problem playing tons of league or MGSV, but RTS games are probably out of the question.
Or fps. Good luck crouching

I don't see the problem with this - in fact I'd say its ergonomically superior using the capslock position for crouch

Unless you don't use that key for crouching. Everybody is different.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Wed, 07 October 2015, 08:03:28
What is crouch?
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 07 October 2015, 08:59:06
What is crouch?
(http://i.imgur.com/t7mIJ9e.gif)

Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Wed, 07 October 2015, 09:06:01
What is crouch?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Wed, 07 October 2015, 10:12:46
Weird!
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 07 October 2015, 10:41:12
I could never game with one
 
I don't have a problem playing tons of league or MGSV, but RTS games are probably out of the question.
Or fps. Good luck crouching

Doesn't everyone use capslock to crouch anyway? a key in the bottom left makes no sense ergonomically
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: TacticalCoder on Wed, 07 October 2015, 10:57:39
They are wasted spaces? Ok, under what logic?

I looked at my HHKB and was like "which wasted space!?"

Oh, right, I've got that HHKB Pro JP (which totally rocks BTW -- tiny spacebar FTW and many modifiers easibly reachable with the thumbs FTW too).

Ain't the "logic" here simply that the HHKB Pro JP and HHKB Pro 2 have nearly the same case?
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Macsmasher on Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:10:09
WASD is not the holy grail gaming configuration. I FPS game with left-handed mouse, so my movement cluster is OKL: on the right side of the keyboard (I'm right-handed btw). Every game allows you to change key bindings for a reason. I understand that most guys are left hand on the keyboard. However, moving over just one row, say ESDF, provides more keys that you can assign functions to. And it is arguably better because you have the bump on the F key for your index finger, allowing you to find your movement cluster without looking. Seriously, I don't understand the resistance to changing from WASD. I guess the only reason to stay with WASD would be if you had custom keycaps for that cluster. And if you replaced the F key with the Topre four key replacement set for example, you'd lose your F key bump.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Thu, 08 October 2015, 15:41:07
My first inclination was with wasted space, but I realized that was exactly where I allowed my hands to rest sometimes, the bases of my small fingers. I press a lot of keys there with the side of my palm rather than with a finger, especially in combinations, and to some extent this also goes for left ALT (like in ALT+F4). I would probably be using left CTRL for support if it didn't move. :P Hence, I think the solid, stable ground there on which to rest that part of your palm may be very important pivot in the typic dynamics of your hands. Perhaps also ergonomy, as in enabling you to use young fingers in a bit similar way to how it's done on MS Natural or Curve or Logitech Wave (30º rather than the traditional 90º).

To get an illustration try pressing and holding CTRL+Q with just your left hand. You should then see what I mean.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: hoz on Fri, 09 October 2015, 20:37:25
i think i like it, especially accompanied by iso left shift to get "100%" iso functionality, building another wkl.kr hhkb up this week hopefully :)
the keys gone are keys i hate using in their original position anyway.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/567/21424730010_34015f7545_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5713/21601385572_dd901e65fe_b.jpg)(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5699/21306382739_80203e90d4_b.jpg)
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: Tiramisuu on Tue, 13 October 2015, 16:10:12
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: ideus on Tue, 13 October 2015, 16:51:06
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh

Hehe, the HHKB fans will crucify you.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Tue, 13 October 2015, 16:51:44
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh

Old layout - uses tkl  :p
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: tararais on Tue, 13 October 2015, 17:08:31
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh
 
Die you peasant.
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: hoz on Tue, 13 October 2015, 17:10:03
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh

what's new about the poker and a tkl? oO_
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: swimmingbird on Tue, 13 October 2015, 17:11:27
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh

Hehe, the HHKB fans will crucify you.

We will beat you to death with our compact, highly concealable keyboards
Title: Re: What do you think about the HHKB free spaces at its bottom corners?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 14 October 2015, 04:50:36
Old layout,  antiquated design,  rubber dome,  meh

Them's fightin' words! :p