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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: megahertzcoil on Tue, 13 October 2015, 10:26:49
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Since I have been personally drawn into the world of mechanical keyboards through vintage Model M's. After sampling some Cherry MX boards, I am still firmly in the buckling spring camp. I also noticed that in the various surveys on this site and elsewhere, that buckling spring switches seem to rank high for general duty and typing. So why is it that buckling spring keyboards have only a small fraction of the users of other switch types? I know switch preference is very personal, so I am not asking someone might prefer a different switch, rather if you considered a buckling spring board and didn't purchase one, why not, was is the switch or something else? Some of the reasons that come to mind are:
* lack of new form factor options and modern layouts (60%, 75%, TKL, Mac keys, etc)
* lack of customization options, either keycaps, layout or both
* typing feel or sound
* programmability (layers, macros, etc)
* others (backlighting, ergonomics, quality of new offerings, etc)
While I ultimately chose an SSK after having a full size Model M, I needed to address the lack of USB and programmability. Fortunately, both are solvable problems, with the controller board from Phosphor Glow and the TMK firmware. BTW, these are amazing modifications to the standard Model M. I also know others that liked my SSK, but needed the additional win key for use on a Mac and lack of backlighting and fewer artisan keycap options.
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Part of the reason is things you've mentioned so far. Another important one; certain other types of keyboard are EVEN MORE overhyped than the Model M :P .
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Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.
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2KRO on Model Ms
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I think a lot of it is due to the fact that Unicomp is the only manufacturer of modern BS. Actually, I think BS foils Alps popularity a lot. Until more manufacturers (Matias, KBParadise) started making modern Alps-mount boards, Alps was kinda eh in terms of usage and popularity. It's kind of a pain to hunt vintage stuff on eBay and elsewhere and have to clean and fiddle with it. Some people just want to buy something new and have it work out the box.
I don't think Unicomp makes a bad product but they make one layout essentially: full size. Normally that's not a problem but BS boards are huge. If you want something else, say a TKL or 60%, you have to hunt for vintage stuff. This leads to having to mod, clean, pay markups, etc. And I personally feel that Unicomp's boards aren't as good as the vintage boards. I don't think their QC is as good.
This project (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73363.0) is a huge step in the right direction. New modern made BS boards in a layout that people are into.
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Yep. For me it is just layout for the cost. I want something smaller than a SSK for around the $200 mark. I was an idiot for not getting a Kishsaver from tinnie.
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I love my SSK, but I must agree. Something smaller than an SSK, and more affordable than a Kishsaver would have me smitten. Even with that, I'd still want a Kishsaver. Them some pretty boards right there.
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Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.
That, and no backlighting e-peen.
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As already told in prior posts and priority order varies depending on user needs and context
Big Footprint - Extremely loud - 2KRO
Also switches are not available for other brands to use like Matias' or Cherry's - incorporating BS switches in a modern board could easily address the 2KRO limitation.
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2KRO won't do for me. I'm part of the minority of people that actually runs into the limit with 6KRO so my 2KRO Model M would live in the closet even if I liked the switches better than I actually do.
Also, the main sources for buckling spring keyboards are Unicomp, whose keyboards are known for various irregularities, and old Lexmark/IBM Model Ms, which means dealing with all of the problems involved with buying an old, used keyboard. Model Ms might be durable, but they're not so durable that it'd be impossible for a non-mechanically-inclined person to destroy one in the process of getting it acceptably clean.
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They are not readily available everywhere. The only way you can get one is buying a used keyboard from a thrift shop or a garage sale, finding one on eBay or Amazon, or just buying a new one from Unicomp.
The main problem is you are going on blind faith to get one. Unless you have tried one for yourself, you won't know. Try going to a big-box store, and you won't find anything but what is currently readily available on the market.
So, what do you do? You give every reason NOT to have one, but forget the main reason to have one.
The best thing I can suggest is actually trying one out, and deciding for yourself. This is where you should buy a Unicomp. You buy a used one that is thrashed, it may feel like garbage, and your conclusion is they are all garbage.
The comparing of a Model M with the racket of a machine gun is fine if you don't want a keyboard that makes any sound. However, I will say they are not anything like that. Overdramaticizing the sound just isn't right. If you don't have one, how will you know?
The worst part is that you might be missing out on your ideal keyboard without experiencing it.
Just pass it by.
Hey, it's not how I feel about it. To each their own.
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I think that many people are seduced by "modern" things in general - it is said that not just keyboards but computers themselves are soon to be mostly replaced by smart phones.
A person who loves his tiny lightweight plastic gaming keyboard is not likely to be enticed to use a Reagan-era steampunk behemoth.
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I think that many people are seduced by "modern" things in general - it is said that not just keyboards but computers themselves are soon to be mostly replaced by smart phones.
A person who loves his tiny lightweight plastic gaming keyboard is not likely to be enticed to use a Reagan-era steampunk behemoth.
Really though, there are many good reasons why one wouldn't want to use an M/F, the massive size and weight being only the tip of the concerns. Even if it were made modern, the weight and sound would remain the same. I think its greatest hindrance is immobility. Back then, keyboards weren't meant to be moved around and carried in cases.
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Really though, there are many good reasons why one wouldn't want to use an M/F, the massive size and weight being only the tip of the concerns. Even if it were made modern, the weight and sound would remain the same. I think its greatest hindrance is immobility. Back then, keyboards weren't meant to be moved around and carried in cases.
The weight and sound are the best features of a Model M!
I would argue that modern keyboards aren't made to be moved around and carried from place to place either. I have almost all 60% boards, and I go out of my way to make them heavy. Hell, I made a case myself specifically so I could make it heavier than the readily available aluminum options. I will admit that I also often (but not always) take my board(s) home from work with me. The weight doesn't hinder me at all. Also serves as good protection; I could take out a hooligan in no time with a swing of this thing.
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:blank:
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Wow, I wasn't sure I would get such a rapid and insightful response to my question!
Certainly there are things that make the Model M/F stand out, heft, typing feel, sound, etc. The relationship with those aspects of the keyboard seem to be most emotional and either love/hate. The others that people brought up are much more interesting and likely thing that could be improved to give more people access to the technology without sacrificing the core characteristics of B/S switches: retail accessibility, form-factor/foot print, NKRO, stand-alone switches for custom builds.
I know there are a number of community members that are working on moderization projects: (Kishsaver replica, Model W, Unicomp M83, etc), so I am hopeful for the future of B/S keyboards. There definitely seems to be some opportunity to bring this switch type into the modern era :)
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I like my Model M keyboards. I'd use them all the time if I could.
But out of consideration for those at home, I use quieter keyboards (I usually get up, and go to bed, after my daughter, and it's only fair to let her sleep).
I used an SSK quite happily at work until someone complained quite bitterly about it.
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I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy :p
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I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy :p
None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.
I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.
I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.
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I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy :p
None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.
I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.
I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.
Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?
And damn those are some expensive cables!
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I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy :p
None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.
I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.
I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.
Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?
And damn those are some expensive cables!
Bolt-nodding is only necessary on boards on which so many rivets have snapped off that it doesn't work properly anymore. I have found lots of Ms at the recycling centre and the worst one by far was missing 17. And that one was still working (I did bolt-mod it though).
As for the cable; you don't need one unless you don't have a PS/2 port.
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I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy :p
None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.
I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.
I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.
Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?
And damn those are some expensive cables!
Bolt-nodding is only necessary on boards on which so many rivets have snapped off that it doesn't work properly anymore. I have found lots of Ms at the recycling centre and the worst one by far was missing 17. And that one was still working (I did bolt-mod it though).
As for the cable; you don't need one unless you don't have a PS/2 port.
This :)
Once a sufficient number of rivets break off in a particular area, keys around that area will start feeling mushy. One of my full sized keyboards feels distinctly different from one side of the keyboard to the other. It still works 100%, but I have a feeling that a bolt mod is not far away.
My other full size one I had to fabricate a replacement cable as someone in the keyboard's part decided to cut it off just where it entered the case. After opening the case at least a dozen rivets fell out. I was careful not to touch the plate, put it all back together, and actually that keyboard feels pretty good, despite losing a dozen or more rivets.
I can only imagine how great they would feel after a bolt mod!
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Bolt-nodding is only necessary on boards on which so many rivets have snapped off that it doesn't work properly anymore. I have found lots of Ms at the recycling centre and the worst one by far was missing 17. And that one was still working (I did bolt-mod it though).
As for the cable; you don't need one unless you don't have a PS/2 port.
This :)
Once a sufficient number of rivets break off in a particular area, keys around that area will start feeling mushy. One of my full sized keyboards feels distinctly different from one side of the keyboard to the other. It still works 100%, but I have a feeling that a bolt mod is not far away.
My other full size one I had to fabricate a replacement cable as someone in the keyboard's part decided to cut it off just where it entered the case. After opening the case at least a dozen rivets fell out. I was careful not to touch the plate, put it all back together, and actually that keyboard feels pretty good, despite losing a dozen or more rivets.
I can only imagine how great they would feel after a bolt mod!
Ohhh I see now, my understanding was that the bolts aligned with individual switches and were involved in how worked. This makes a whole lot more sense now!
Thanks guys :-*
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the worst one by far was missing 17.
I bought on of Cindy's "New-in-Box" SSKs last year and it had 29 broken rivets, even though it had never been taken out of the box.
And 17 of them were on one side.
But one of my oldest, a used 1986 1390131, came to me with no broken rivets at all (I bolt-modded it anyway - it is now my top-shelf M).
Of a couple of dozen Ms (at least) that I have handled, I would estimate that for a late-1980s-early-1990s model you should likely expect to see between 5-10 broken rivets. That will not be a problem if they are scattered around, but if they are clustered you will have a soft spot.
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That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!
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That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!
All the rivets on Ms are done by machine. The rivets are part of theold for the plate. After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place. None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets. The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.
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Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?
If the rivets on the board are falling off, the metal plate separates from the assembly. If too many of them are gone, the assembly "floats" from the plate. The keyboard will become more and more unresponsive and actually feel inconsistent from one key to the next. This keyboard is just fine.
(http://i.imgur.com/LVF6lbB.jpg)
If your board requires a bolt mod, each and every plastic rivet is cut off and the keyboard barrel has individual holes drilled where the rivets were. (There are NO rivet holes, the barrel plate is actually fused to the metal plate.)
So, very meticulously, you have over 60 tiny holes you need to drill where the rivets were. Then you screw in over 60 screws in place of the rivets.
(http://i.imgur.com/bkd2z01.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/aPc2QNA.jpg?1)
This is something beyond my capabilities.
I had Maxx from Phosphorglow do several bolt mods on some of my keyboards.
The rest have no need for a bolt mod. If they do, I know who I will go to.
If you want to try it yourself, I highly recommend watching his video of the process.
Good Luck!
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big, heavy, high actuation force, 2kro boards, and while Unicomp makes them arguably more commercially available to the average consumer than the original ibm's, they have very low consumer awareness
Awareness - I forgot about that one. It's a HUGE reason in itself.
99.9% of the buyers get them in bundle. They buy a ComputerDisplayKeyboardMouse thing. Keyboards enthusiasts like us are merely a peck of dust in the market.
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That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!
All the rivets on Ms are done by machine. The rivets are part of theold for the plate. After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place. None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets. The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.
I didn't say metal rivets. The rivets on my 1388032 are hand-melted, not machine-melted.
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That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!
All the rivets on Ms are done by machine. The rivets are part of theold for the plate. After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place. None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets. The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.
I didn't say metal rivets. The rivets on my 1388032 are hand-melted, not machine-melted.
Did you do that yourself or something? How did you get the tension correct by doing that by hand? Huh? I'm very confused.
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That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!
All the rivets on Ms are done by machine. The rivets are part of theold for the plate. After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place. None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets. The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.
I didn't say metal rivets. The rivets on my 1388032 are hand-melted, not machine-melted.
Did you do that yourself or something? How did you get the tension correct by doing that by hand? Huh? I'm very confused.
No, it was hand-melted at the factory. The board dates from before they machinated the riveting process, apparently.
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There is only one difficult step in the process:
You will need to drill about 50 (not 60) holes (I use 1/16" bit but 1.5mm is about the same) very straight and vertical. A drill press would be great but I have done it well over a dozen times with a hand-held (both hands) Dremel tool at its slowest speed setting.
The "rivets" are actually the shafts of the solid cylinders of plastic that were melted into "mushroom heads" to hold the back plate on and under light compression.
If you are good, you will drill out the center of the cylinder turning into a tube that accepts your machine screw (aka "bolt").
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You will need to drill about 50 (not 60) holes..
If you want to get technical, it's more than 50. I think 58 on a standard 101. More than that with a 122.
Edit: Unless you don't do that bottom row at all. (using clips???) Plus the tension on the geometry must be equalized or you get a strange feeling keyboard. It's not easy at all. Don't crack the barrel frame on the horizontal! Oh! And don't screw up the membrane! Be sure it's lined up PERFECTLY. You don't want to mess it up!
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Unless you don't do that bottom row at all.
And don't screw up the membrane! Be sure it's lined up PERFECTLY.
I recommend that you ignore those 8 in the front. The plastic ridge makes it hard to screw. The internal frame snaps into the case down there anyway.
Don't scratch or scrub the traces on the membranes. But they are pretty much impossible to install misaligned. You can stack them in the wrong order, however.
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Unless you don't do that bottom row at all.
And don't screw up the membrane! Be sure it's lined up PERFECTLY.
I recommend that you ignore those 8 in the front. The plastic ridge makes it hard to screw. The internal frame snaps into the case down there anyway.
Don't scratch or scrub the traces on the membranes. But they are pretty much impossible to install misaligned. You can stack them in the wrong order, however.
The big concern is the barrel frame too. It depends on the type of material the plastic is made of. I have discovered that mostly the Greenrock boards use a very fragile and easy to crack plastic, even if you do everything else perfectly, it will actually have cracks to begin with. You may have to order a new barrel frame and blanket too. I'm not saying it's impossible. I am just saying it's very tedious work.
Edit: My bad.
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I have had at least 3 late-1990s Greenock Model Ms and they were junk. In fact, 2 if not all 3 were DOA, and I think that they were the only non-working Model Ms I have ever gotten. And they had ABS space bars.
My guess is that earlier Greenocks were built to high standards, by 1998 IBM had long since spun off its keyboard business in the US.
People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.
Late-model Greenocks are the ones to avoid, in my experience.
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I have had at least 3 late-1990s Greenock Model Ms and they were junk. In fact, 2 if not all 3 were DOA, and I think that they were the only non-working Model Ms I have ever gotten. And they had ABS space bars.
My guess is that earlier Greenocks were built to high standards, by 1998 IBM had long since spun off its keyboard business in the US.
People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.
Late-model Greenocks are the ones to avoid, in my experience.
I was really really lucky to get that 1999 Greenrock board. Amazingly it had a 3rd gen build (but then again it was a terminal board) and no issues with it at all. I think that's the first picture with the rivets all intact. It also did NOT have that brittle plastic that the 42H Greenrocks had.
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Heavy actuation force. Scarcity of tenkeyless Model Ms.
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The price will be $325 bring your own caps, or I think $350 with caps - already reached the pricing goal!
Have you ever plan to build a SSK?
An ISO and an ANSI board.. my head hurts.
Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.
Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.
Not true. Just get your employer to put in white noise generators...
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Can you hear the rivets if they're broken if you hold the case in different orientations? Because none of mine have any noise from what I can tell.
There's no need to really do anything with an M unless it's not working. I literally pulled the ones I have out of a large cardboard box filled with other keyboards and then plugged them in and got to work. And this was over 10 years ago.
Are the Ms 2KRO? I thought all ps2 keyboards were NKRO since they're using a cpu interrupt?
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As far as popularity, I think the reason M's aren't popular for everything is because everyone's hands are different--some want a soft actuation force, some want no tactile bump, some want less key travel. And all of these make the M not the best choice. And I'm fine with that since it's all about finding what your hands like most. (Plus that means more Ms out there for me, mwahahaha.)
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Can you hear the rivets if they're broken if you hold the case in different orientations? Because none of mine have any noise from what I can tell.
There's no need to really do anything with an M unless it's not working. I literally pulled the ones I have out of a large cardboard box filled with other keyboards and then plugged them in and got to work. And this was over 10 years ago.
Are the Ms 2KRO? I thought all ps2 keyboards were NKRO since they're using a cpu interrupt?
No, M's are 2kro. Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.
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People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.
Just bought one off MassDrop only because of the dirt cheap shipping price of $33.50USD compared to Unicomp's postal price of $78.90USD.
Also want to see how good have they become or have they finally lost their ability to make quality keyboards, just curious to know.
Although I would still buy all my key-caps off Unicomp direct, despite the postal rape.
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No, M's are 2kro. Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.
This can't be right. I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. :-\
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No, M's are 2kro. Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.
This can't be right. I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. :-\
Do you have any sort of converter? The reason I ask is because some of them can operate on a queue iirc. The membranes are 2KRO on the hardware side.
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No, M's are 2kro. Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.
This can't be right. I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. :-\
Yes Model M's are 2KRO. It's by design.
Edit: Thanks Melvang. Much appreciated!
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People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.
Just bought one off MassDrop only because of the dirt cheap shipping price of $33.50USD compared to Unicomp's postal price of $78.90USD.
Also want to see how good have they become or have they finally lost their ability to make quality keyboards, just curious to know.
Although I would still buy all my key-caps off Unicomp direct, despite the postal rape.
Gotta love that aussie(?) shipping, eh?
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BS boards are hugely popular. But less so on the enthusiast side, more the casual, "in the know" computer user.
A lot of the draw to a forum like this one is that people are seeking advice on which board to buy, or which switch type, or which layout to use for their custom project. Nine of those things apply to a Model M. It's just a Model M. And you can't really make a custom one, although you can customize them somewhat.
So don't be fooled by the skewed representation on Geekhack. There's a lot of BS out there.
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No, M's are 2kro. Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.
This can't be right. I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. :-\
Do you have any sort of converter? The reason I ask is because some of them can operate on a queue iirc. The membranes are 2KRO on the hardware side.
Must be something like that then. I'm using a cheap IO gear KVM that has ps2 inputs and connects via usb.
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Can you hear the rivets if they're broken if you hold the case in different orientations? Because none of mine have any noise from what I can tell.
There's no need to really do anything with an M unless it's not working. I literally pulled the ones I have out of a large cardboard box filled with other keyboards and then plugged them in and got to work. And this was over 10 years ago.
Are the Ms 2KRO? I thought all ps2 keyboards were NKRO since they're using a cpu interrupt?
You can generally hear the rivets bounce around in the casing if you shake it. If there's no noise it's probably fine.
And Ms are 2KRO; membranes cannot achieve NKRO. Almost all PS/2 keyboards are 2KRO in fact. The Model F's capacitive design eliminates ghosting and therefore has full NKRO. If you're interested in how it does this and why membranes can't have NKRO but why capacitive boards always have it, you might enjoy my recent Model F122 review:
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the IBM Model F XT is my favorite board :3
in my experience, it just washes away the Model M..
the sound, the feel, and even the layout of the F XT are two times better to me.
hail capacitive buckling spring!
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All this lively banter kinda disproves the notion that BS keyboards are not popular :)
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All this lively banter kinda disproves the notion that BS keyboards are not popular :)
"Popular" is a relative concept.
With what, billions of computer users in the world, does "popular" mean that 10%, or 1%, or 0.1%, or 0.01%, or less less percent of computer users like them?
But I would say that buckling springs are popular in a limited niche market. And be particularly well-represented on a hobby forum!
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*sigh*
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Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety. They were noisy and had an annoying ring to them when typed on. In my early computer and typing classes, this resulted in a low roar of obnoxious typing noises. Eventually, I found myself to start disliking the idea of noisy keyboards, and I embraced the rubber-dome generation of quieter keyboards with less key travel. The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away. I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality. For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.
The reason why I became more interested in mechanical keyboards in more recent years is because the quality of the mass produced rubber dome keyboards has fallen (the mushy feels were getting to me). I didnt even realize the depth of keyboard development, switch types, etc until fairly recent; a keyboard was just a device that needed to work. Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel? I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.
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BS isn't about nostalgia, but about functionality. There was a tremendous amount of research that went into the development of the BS design and the resulting keyboards. And IBM did it well--probably too well--because the keyboards are still functional decades after the computers they were designed for have died.
Still, as times have changed, and UI is more understood now, there are more choices in terms of a 'great fit' for a particular style of typing. But since the fundamentals of typing really haven't changed (hitting switches on a board with 'keys' on them), well-made older designs like the BS still live on, and rightfully so.
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a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.
This seems like a bizarre statement to me. A mouse ball is imprecise and hard to control, an inferior failed technology.
I am no Luddite, but there are valid reasons to select admittedly old, but tested and true, equipment over modern plastic disposables.
Personally, I find the solidity and precision of a Model F to be an order of magnitude superior to anything bought new today.
Typing on modern plastic keyboards is simply not satisfying in the way that "real" tools are, but, I agree, if I was carrying it around regularly, I would make different choices. A craftsman selects his tools carefully, buying equipment that will perform consistently and not fail unexpectedly. If the purpose of a keyboard is something to type on, then select the piece that facilitates that function best, not that which takes up the least desk space, weighs the least, or costs the least.
Additionally, aesthetically, there is an aura of "steampunk" awesomeness to ancient IBM iron that these contemporary lightweights cannot even aspire to.
Even the custom Korean jobs with aluminum plates, while impressive, are still saddled with tinkley wimpy switches and lots of plastic.
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a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.
This seems like a bizarre statement to me. A mouse ball is imprecise and hard to control.
I am no Luddite, but there are valid reasons to select admittedly old, but tested and true, equipment over modern plastic disposables.
Personally, I find the solidity and precision of a Model F to be an order of magnitude superior to anything bought new today.
I couldn't agree more. When looking at reviews of older versus newer keyboards the older ones virtually invariably come out on top. Even older versions of switches that are still being produced, like vintage Cherries, capacitive buckling springs or complicated Alps, are consistently rated to be superior to their modern versions. There is only ONE infallible trend in keyboard production, design and construction, and that is a downward one. Pretty much every single keyboard or switch manufacturer has either cut corners, bit the dust, or both.
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Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety.
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away. I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality. For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity. ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel? I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.
Did you even read the previous posts? Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies. Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:
"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"
Sound familiar? I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products. Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.
I am not going to argue the point. I already made mine. I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.
Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.
Hey, everything comes back in style. It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.
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Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety.
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away. I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality. For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity. ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel? I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.
Did you even read the previous posts? Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies. Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:
"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"
Sound familiar? I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products. Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.
I am not going to argue the point. I already made mine. I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.
Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.
Hey, everything comes back in style. It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.
There's different types of keyboard enthusiasts, and while some respect the IBM BS boards enough to at least try them, others are not interested. And that's okay.
This is the day and age of instant gratification, form over function, keeping up with the jones' vs keeping up your pants. It influences everything, and even the niche of 'people who love their IBM BS keyboard'.
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Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety.
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away. I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality. For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity. ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel? I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.
Did you even read the previous posts? Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies. Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:
"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"
Sound familiar? I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products. Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.
I am not going to argue the point. I already made mine. I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.
Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.
Hey, everything comes back in style. It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.
Oh boy, aggressive "keyboard" warrior..
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I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.
Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.
Hey, everything comes back in style. It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.
The IBM is one of those Classic designs plus it's switches do last a long time regardless of how many novels are written upon it ;) .
Again own personal contact with these type of keyboards will either make you keep using them or turn you away. The younger crowd will always go for the Vegas lights because children are always attracted to bright, sparkly things.
Us lot are more interested in reliability and simple to read legends. Plus we have all used Model-Ms before in our earlier lives and consider them part of our ancient heritage.
Not a rabid IBM fan but appreciate a fully functioning keyboard that will last for decades when used.
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a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.
This seems like a bizarre statement to me. A mouse ball is imprecise and hard to control, an inferior failed technology.
Technologically comparable perhaps not, but I made a point to replace my BS board with something quieter just like I replaced my mouse with something more responsive. Both are relics of an earlier age of PCs imo.
I am no Luddite, but there are valid reasons to select admittedly old, but tested and true, equipment over modern plastic disposables.
Personally, I find the solidity and precision of a Model F to be an order of magnitude superior to anything bought new today.
Typing on modern plastic keyboards is simply not satisfying in the way that "real" tools are, but, I agree, if I was carrying it around regularly, I would make different choices. A craftsman selects his tools carefully, buying equipment that will perform consistently and not fail unexpectedly. If the purpose of a keyboard is something to type on, then select the piece that facilitates that function best, not that which takes up the least desk space, weighs the least, or costs the least.
Im not doubtful of your reasons for wanting an older keyboard, nor was I making an objective argument against them. Though after purchasing a TKL board, I am definitely partial to the ergonomics of placement with the mouse on my desk. And keyboard durability has never been an issue for me, for whatever that's worth.
Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety.
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away. I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality. For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity. ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel? I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.
Did you even read the previous posts? Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies. Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I read the thread. I was just giving my perspective towards the whole "why isnt BS more popular?" topic. Condescend much? :rolleyes:
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:
"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"
Sound familiar? I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products. Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.
You seem to imply that this actually applies to me just because I dont want to buy an old keyboard that I never even liked. I have used one before. If you actually read my reply you would know this already. And for the record I dont own a flashy keyboard full of bling, nor do I want one.
I am not going to argue the point. I already made mine. I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.
Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.
If build quality and longevity was the only thing I was looking for in a keyboard, id probably already have one.
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All this lively banter kinda disproves the notion that BS keyboards are not popular :)
"Popular" is a relative concept.
With what, billions of computer users in the world, does "popular" mean that 10%, or 1%, or 0.1%, or 0.01%, or less less percent of computer users like them?
But I would say that buckling springs are popular in a limited niche market. And be particularly well-represented on a hobby forum!
Indeed :)
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Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety.
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away. I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality. For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity. ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel? I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.
Did you even read the previous posts? Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies. Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I read the thread. I was just giving my perspective towards the whole "why isnt BS more popular?" topic. Condescend much? :rolleyes:
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:
"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"
Sound familiar? I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products. Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.
You seem to imply that this actually applies to me just because I dont want to buy an old keyboard that I never even liked. I have used one before. If you actually read my reply you would know this already. And for the record I dont own a flashy keyboard full of bling, nor do I want one.
I am not going to argue the point. I already made mine. I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.
Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.
If build quality and longevity was the only thing I was looking for in a keyboard, id probably already have one.
I wasn't being condescending whatsoever. I just find what you are saying to be judgmental because you don't want keyboards to make sound. They do have those iPads and laser projection keyboards if you prefer no sound at all. Is that what you really are inclined to use?
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Both are relics of an earlier age of PCs imo.
"Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it." Another timeless classic, lol.
You're welcome to your opinion, but it did ruffle some feathers in the IBM camp. No harm, no foul imo. :thumb:
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Lack of availability and sane layouts on the ones worth using.
I mean sure you can get Happy Meal toy 2KRO Ms for cheap anywhere and you won't even have to complain about having a Windows key, but... Well it's a 2KRO board that feels and performs inferior to the Model F.
F feels amazing, sounds great, NKRO... It's also harder and more expensive to find. XTs are easiest and cheapest, but have a funky layout. AT is probably the best compromise of price and availability, but still expensive. 122s are the size of boats and not that common. 4704s have a near modern layout but have absurd bezels, weigh a ton, and even the most common, the 107, isn't cheap. The 77 key is unobtanium, the Kishsaver is rare and expensive, the 50 key is basically a demented number pad if you even find one...
Oh and all of them require at least a converter, if not a replacement controller. And while Ms have rivets Fs have foam, which can need replacing.
Ms don't meet some people's needs and while Fs do work for things like gaming, not everyone wants a goofy layout or a giant boat for a keyboard that weighs 12 pounds.
And while I love Bertha's clanging, some people don't want boats that sound like a cat in a pile of springs.
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I wasn't being condescending whatsoever. I just find what you are saying to be judgmental because you don't want keyboards to make sound. They do have those iPads and laser projection keyboards if you prefer no sound at all. Is that what you really are inclined to use?
Ah, if not black, then white. Im not saying that I desire a completely silent keyboard; actually I like a little bit of feedback noise when typing just so that I know that im hitting the keys. Just like some people dont like the cheap plastic click of an mx blue, I personally have an aversion to the pingy loudness of BS boards. It's almost like im a pariah for mentioning this, when surely the rise in popularity of rubber dome boards was because they were so much quieter. I do remember them having a pretty nice tactile feel though.
For the record, I use a RF 87U 55g board, and while quiet, it is still not what I would consider silent. It has a subdued, dampened noise that I personally find to be much nicer in sound than a BS board.
Both are relics of an earlier age of PCs imo.
"Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it." Another timeless classic, lol.
You're welcome to your opinion, but it did ruffle some feathers in the IBM camp. No harm, no foul imo. :thumb:
Yea, I understand the loyalty that goes along with retro gear, especially if it can stand the test of time and still be a quality product. I guess my life experience just makes me a bit jaded when it comes to the old IBM boards, which is why I view the shift in popularity as a natural progression, even if the change wasnt all for the good. It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
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It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
What you posted got me thinking and I think the reason they're not built like they used to be is because there are more varieties and choices than before. Let me explain.
With infinite choice, you can truly build a one-off. But the problem is that one-off is only good for one sale--you. And to make anything affordable, it has to be made in mass quantities. So if you can't increase the sales, and you can't increase the price, the only thing left to do is decrease the manufacturing cost. Unfortunately, this means that as we approach infinite customization, we'll approach crap quality. :(
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It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
Wait what?!
Nowadays your choices consist of a slew of Cherry boards that are either cost-cut or cost-cut clones, Topre, a cost-cut version of a cost-cut version of a buckling springs board and a clone of a clone of Alps switches. That's about it. It used to be Model Fs and Ms in all kinds of shapes and sizes, a million types of Alps switches, NMB Hi-Teks, SMKs, BTC, Fujitsu, Mitsumi, NEC, ITW, Oaks, RAFI, Honeywell, and many more, including all kinds of clones and switches and variations we haven't even found or documented yet - AND the stuff mentioned above.
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122s are the size of boats and not that common.
4704s have a near modern layout but have absurd bezels, weigh a ton, and even the most common, the 107, isn't cheap.
Oh and all of them require at least a converter, if not a replacement controller. And while Ms have rivets Fs have foam, which can need replacing.
Ms don't meet some people's needs and while Fs do work for things like gaming, not everyone wants a goofy layout or a giant boat for a keyboard that weighs 12 pounds.
I must take issue with several comments here.
The F-122 is not all that hard to find in the low-$100 price point, but it does take some work, including a $20 Soarer's Teensy and probably cutting a new foam mat. The first time, these things are quite challenging, but then they become mundane, if still tedious. And even an F-122 weighs only 8.25 lb / 3.75 kg.
I now have an F-107 that is both smaller and lighter than an F-122 (the metal case is actually rather lightweight) although it does require an xwhatsit and lacks the upper row(s) of function keys.
If you can sort out the function keys on the left, the F-77 would be a near-ideal choice.
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I haven't bought an F yet because I'm never sure what I'd be getting into. I wish there was a Model F that matched the standard 104-key layout. F-122 is close, but huge and I'm not sure I could get used to its size.
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It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
Wait what?!
Nowadays your choices consist of a slew of Cherry boards that are either cost-cut or cost-cut clones, Topre, a cost-cut version of a cost-cut version of a buckling springs board and a clone of a clone of Alps switches. That's about it. It used to be Model Fs and Ms in all kinds of shapes and sizes, a million types of Alps switches, NMB Hi-Teks, SMKs, BTC, Fujitsu, Mitsumi, NEC, ITW, Oaks, RAFI, Honeywell, and many more, including all kinds of clones and switches and variations we haven't even found or documented yet - AND the stuff mentioned above.
You forgot about rubber domes :p
Though good point, with regards to switch types there is definitely a more limited selection; I was thinking more in the idea of form sizes, keycaps, and media/gaming keyboards. Not sure how many of the older switches are better than the modern variants, but I am kind of interested in knowing how I would like some of the Alps and NMB switches. Thanks for reminding me that I probably havent reached an end-game KB, and the one im looking for is probably in the past, lol. I just know BS isnt it, but I guess that doesnt dismiss all of the other variants that never really came into popularity - all of which ive never tried; I never used to put much thought into them until the rubber dome options were all terrible.
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It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
Wait what?!
Nowadays your choices consist of a slew of Cherry boards that are either cost-cut or cost-cut clones, Topre, a cost-cut version of a cost-cut version of a buckling springs board and a clone of a clone of Alps switches. That's about it. It used to be Model Fs and Ms in all kinds of shapes and sizes, a million types of Alps switches, NMB Hi-Teks, SMKs, BTC, Fujitsu, Mitsumi, NEC, ITW, Oaks, RAFI, Honeywell, and many more, including all kinds of clones and switches and variations we haven't even found or documented yet - AND the stuff mentioned above.
You forgot about rubber domes :p
Though good point, with regards to switch types there is definitely a more limited selection; I was thinking more in the idea of form sizes, keycaps, and media/gaming keyboards. Not sure how many of the older switches are better than the modern variants, but I am kind of interested in knowing how I would like some of the Alps and NMB switches. Thanks for reminding me that I probably havent reached an end-game KB, and the one im looking for is probably in the past, lol. I just know BS isnt it, but I guess that doesnt dismiss all of the other variants that never really came into popularity - all of which ive never tried; I never used to put much thought into them until the rubber dome options were all terrible.
Yeah, good point. Key Tronic, the king of rubber ****e, was (and possibly is?) the world's largest manufacturer of keyboards back in the day. Boy, did they do well out of their polymeric pieces of poop.
Both NMB Hi-Teks and Alps are great switches IMO, it's a massive disservice they're no longer made. They're also very different, both from eachother as well as from BS and Cherry. If you want to try these out I'd recommend a board with white Alps (probably best not to shell out for a blue Alps board unless you know you'll like them) and an NMB board with black, clicky Space Invaders (model should end in C+ or possibly CW+). My video reviews include both a black Space Invader board as well as a whole bunch of Alps boards, three of them white. Check the link in my sig if you're interested :) .
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I must take issue with several comments here.
The F-122 is not all that hard to find in the low-$100 price point, but it does take some work, including a $20 Soarer's Teensy and probably cutting a new foam mat. The first time, these things are quite challenging, but then they become mundane, if still tedious. And even an F-122 weighs only 8.25 lb / 3.75 kg.
I now have an F-107 that is both smaller and lighter than an F-122 (the metal case is actually rather lightweight) although it does require an xwhatsit and lacks the upper row(s) of function keys.
If you can sort out the function keys on the left, the F-77 would be a near-ideal choice.
Sorry, it's hard to meticulously fact check everything to your standards posting from a phone. :P
Interesting on the 107 weight, I got about 10lbs weighing Bertha(which is what I was thinking of with '12lb boat', which is also meant to be somewhat hyperbole since I haven't found an exact figure for the weight anywhere online in the past), but I don't have a highly accurate scale that will go high enough or take something that size so it's admittedly a rough figure. Regardless of the exact weight, the point stands - Most people do not want giant boat keyboards that weigh a ton. Hell, if the F-107 or F-122 weighed half a pound most people wouldn't want it just on size alone. People even take exception to the size of the Kishsaver.
Or the time cost of restoring the F-122s you see crop up on ebay from time to time(Last time I went looking before today a few weeks back there weren't any; just M 122s). There's a decent one up right now along with three gross-as-hell ones, but at any given moment your choices are likely to be expensive to begin with, not in working order, and filthy beyond belief - Not a project most look forward to or necessarily have the time for. And even then given the lack of love for fullsize in the hobby people are probably still going to go for a cheap XT to noodle about with just because it's smaller.
The F-77 is a good approximation of a TKL, yes, without the function row, which can be solved by mapping a Fn layer with them. Admittedly awkward if you need dedicated Fn keys. The problem is that it's, as I noted, unobtanium. They just don't show up, which leaves the difficult-to-come-by Kishsaver and the relatively common but huge and expensive 107. (Which solves some of the FN key problems as you can slap most of them on the left hand bank of keys, but still not all of them, and most people are going to need a bigger desk to use a 107. I actually had to extend my keyboard tray to have room for Bertha and my mouse.)
The thing still remains that the entry barrier is on the higher end, be it cost, availability, or time/skill. Want one that just works? You can get a pre-converted F-107, it's what I did since I have poor coordination for working with things and little experience soldering, but it will cost you. Want a cheap one? Enjoy the funky layout of the XT and needing to clean it and get a converter. Want a full-size? Enjoy expense or tedious restoration work. Want a 60%? Enjoy waiting for one to come up and spending lots of money. Want a TKL? ...I'm sorry. XD;
But yes, degrading foam, up to 30+ years of filth, dirty PCBs, etc. Chances are really good you can make it work eventually, but it's going to be a pain. And work does have a cost - Getting or making a convertor; or getting and soldering in an xwhatsit controller depending, if you didn't already own a soldering iron(And not everyone in the hobby does yet) getting one and learning to use it, time spent cleaning, time spent punching holes in foam, cleaning, etc. Even the time has a cost. So much easier to get an MX or Topre or Matias board that just works out of the box and doesn't have decades of grime.
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All true, which is why I have felt cheated when I have sold a couple of modernized F-122s in the $200-$300 range.
People wail like banshees over those conversions, yet will pay that price range gladly for certain new little plastic keyboards.
PS - what is a Bertha?
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All true, which is why I have felt cheated when I have sold a couple of modernized F-122s in the $200-$300 range.
People wail like banshees over those conversions, yet will pay that price range gladly for certain new little plastic keyboards.
PS - what is a Bertha?
Nai_Calus's IBM 4704 Model F 107-key "Bertha" (see sig).
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All true, which is why I have felt cheated when I have sold a couple of modernized F-122s in the $200-$300 range.
People wail like banshees over those conversions, yet will pay that price range gladly for certain new little plastic keyboards.
PS - what is a Bertha?
I mean.. isn't an F-122 plastic shell with metal plate?
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I mean.. isn't an F-122 plastic shell with metal plate?
There is plastic in any keyboard, of course. There are 2 thick steel plates in the inner assembly of the F, plus the bottom case (I would call it the "pan") is also heavy steel (except for the AT) and the internal assembly screws down to it. The top shell of the case is plastic, of course, but is not important and I used one of my F-122s for over a year without the top shell on it at all.
Clearly, ancient IBM iron is an "acquired taste" and people either love them or hate them - nobody is indifferent to them.
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I mean.. isn't an F-122 plastic shell with metal plate?
There is plastic in any keyboard, of course. There are 2 thick steel plates in the inner assembly of the F, plus the bottom case (I would call it the "pan") is also heavy steel (except for the AT) and the internal assembly screws down to it. The top shell of the case is plastic, of course, but is not important and I used one of my F-122s for over a year without the top shell on it at all.
Clearly, ancient IBM iron is an "acquired taste" and people either love them or hate them - nobody is indifferent to them.
I simply wanted to point out that it's rather hypocritical to bash on keyboards for having plastic in them when all the BS boards have just as much. In fact, for the 'modern' price of a Model M at $450, you could easily buy an actually metal keyboard.
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Little bit simplistic to think of things in terms of "metal vs plastic," isn't it?
Different plastics, and different versions (alloys? grades? not sure what they're called) can have very different characteristics...
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Nai_Calus - FYI the F62 and F77 you mentioned will soon no longer be unobtanium - I don't mean to toot my own horn but I have been working with a few GH and DT members on selling brand new F62s and F77 Model F's made this year for $325 each (over in the Interest Checks subforum). The prototypes will be finished in a few weeks and I hope to accept orders starting in mid-November. They will be metal cases and using the same materials as the original where possible.
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Nai_Calus - FYI the F62 and F77 you mentioned will soon no longer be unobtanium - I don't mean to toot my own horn but I have been working with a few GH and DT members on selling brand new F62s and F77 Model F's made this year for $325 each (over in the Interest Checks subforum). The prototypes will be finished in a few weeks and I hope to accept orders starting in mid-November. They will be metal cases and using the same materials as the original where possible.
Nice. Glad to see some new BS products.