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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: balmung2 on Sun, 18 October 2015, 04:54:23
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Trying to decide between the Realforce 55g, HHKB Pro 2, and the Unicomp Spacesaver M or Classic.
This will be my first mechanical keyboard, so I don't have a large basis for comparison. I got to try the Cherry MX-Blues and Reds for about five minutes recently, and I definitely preferred the blues. The reds felt too easy to press and not very tactile in comparison, if that makes sense. Unfortunately, trying different switches will not be an option, and any keyboard I buy I'll be stuck with for about 5 years at least. I could always buy a keyboard with cherry switches, but Topre and buckling springs seem much more interesting. I would also prefer not to buy a used keyboard.
Most of my typing these days is on a Macbook Pro, and I definitely prefer it to most other laptop keyboards as well as the rubber-dome I have lying around. My usage is a bit mixed, but mainly I'll be typing out 4-5 page documents or coding on vim or Xcode.
The layout of the HHKB appeals to me because it seems like it would be very efficient with vim. I also like the small form factor, but I don't expect to be carrying the keyboard around too much. The Realforce is also interesting because most people seem to prefer the 55g keys and find them more tactile.
The problem with the Topre keyboards is the price, since paying $200+ for a keyboard seems a bit extreme to me, even if I could justify the expenditure to a certain extent. The Unicomp keyboards, on the other hand, are more reasonably priced, and include the popular buckling spring switch. However, most of the reviews I've read on buckling spring keyboards are more focused on the IBM keyboards, so I'm not completely sure if the Unicomp keyboards will still offer the same level of typing experience.
Based on simple metrics such as actuation force, I would guess that I would prefer the Buckling Springs to the Topre. However, there seems to be a very big difference between the "feel" of the two switches, so I thought asking for more qualitative answers may be useful. I would appreciate any help you guys could provide. I understand that making a recommendation based on such limited information will be difficult, but trying different keyboards and switches will really not be an option due to my location.
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I don't have a Unicomp but I do have an IBM BS board, I also have a HHKB. I like them both for different reasons. The BS just feels strong and solid, the sound is also either really really entertaining or annoying depending on how many people you live with. If you live on your own it is ok, but people around you will get sick of it pretty quickly and that is a factor. I like the HHKB layout because all the keys are within immediate reach as opposed to the IBM boards where your hands travel to get to certain certain keys. I couldn't really choose between the two because they both have different characteristics that are great.
Not much help.
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MX reds are linear. They aren't going to feel tactile. Blues are often a good starting point for first time mech KB users, so knowing that you like those helps.
You can't compare a BS board to a Topre in terms of feel. Just 2 different worlds.
Even a 55g Realforce feels completely different to a 45g HHKB because of the plate mount on the former and the plastic case mount on the latter. This is not taking into account the actuation force.
We don't use HHKBs in our house because you can transport them easier. It is more about the layout and size for desk space and mouse location. We also prefer the plastic case mount for a softer landing feel.
I'd also wait for someone to chime in that codes. No coding in my household, so I cannot comment on the benefits of the HHKB for that.
I know you say you can't afford to try them due to your location, but you MAY be able to snag an extra Model M someone has lying around for not much more than the cost of shipping. Keep your eye on the classifieds.
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...The Unicomp keyboards, on the other hand, are more reasonably priced, and include the popular buckling spring switch. However, most of the reviews I've read on buckling spring keyboards are more focused on the IBM keyboards, so I'm not completely sure if the Unicomp keyboards will still offer the same level of typing experience.
Welcome to geekhack!
Yes, the Unicomp will give you the same level of typing experience as an IBM Model M keyboard. No regrets at all with mine!
(http://i.imgur.com/XreuGYN.jpg)
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Yeah...not really sure how you're going to compare something that is purely personal preference.
If you don't like how rubber dome keyboards feel you will probably want to understand what is it you don't like about them because Topre has the same mechanism (a collapsing dome) although it is far more stable and the overall experience is just better...
If you haven't tried Buckling Spring..that is also something really quite different..For me, I think it feels cheap..and has since it first came out (In my opinion) but some people love them....It will be vastly different from anything you've tried before though..
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Yeah...not really sure how you're going to compare something that is purely personal preference.
If you don't like how rubber dome keyboards feel you will probably want to understand what is it you don't like about them because Topre has the same mechanism (a collapsing dome) although it is far more stable and the overall experience is just better...
If you haven't tried Buckling Spring..that is also something really quite different..For me, I think it feels cheap..and has since it first came out (In my opinion) but some people love them....It will be vastly different from anything you've tried before though..
I personally think rubberdomes feel cheap. Oh! And they are!
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It might also depend where you plan on using the keyboard. Buckling spring in the office will be looked upon as awfully inconsiderate, especially as most people use quiet laptop-type keyboards. Topre boards are about the right level of sound, though I find my HHKB to be quite a bit louder than my Realforce 87Us.
Are you sure that you'll like the heavier switches? I don't find them to be that much more tactile and the 55g Realforce does wear me down after a while and I start missing keystrokes.
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Umicomp, all the way. Cheaper than the others and buckling spring is the best way to start out with MKs.
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Unicomp boards feel cheap to me. HHKB is the best fire Mac, but you either love or hate the layout. I don't care for Rwalforce, but some swear by it.
If you're willing to check some other options out, a board with dampened Alps (Matias or Cream Alps) might be a good option for you since you like Blues. If you want BS, get a Model F AT or one of the old Model Ms (though Ms feel like toys to me) and ignore Unicomp.
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"If in doubt, go Model F"
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Welcome to Geekhack!
Topre and BS are probably opposite ends of the spectrum, with various MX switches between.
Model M (whether it is Unicomp, IBM, Lexmark, ...) is big, heavy and loud, but (for the IBM/Lexmark variants at least) extremely durable and long-lasting. The downside is that an original Model M lacks, what on the Mac would be, Option keys and only has 2kro.
RealForce are more conventional layout, and available in 45g and 55g uniform, as well as ergonomically weighted. If you are looking at the 55g uniform variant, then it is for all intents and purposes a conventional keyboard.
HHKB is special. It is 45g Topre, and has a (more or less) unique layout that can take some getting used to. I haven't used XCode much, but if you use arrow keys to navigate around you might find yourself struggling with the HHKB's Fn layer.
If you will be stuck with this one keyboard for 5 years, I'd suggest either a RealForce or a Model M, depending on whether you want a conventional layout quiet board (RealForce), or more traditional very noisy keyboard (Model M).
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Yeah...not really sure how you're going to compare something that is purely personal preference.
If you don't like how rubber dome keyboards feel you will probably want to understand what is it you don't like about them because Topre has the same mechanism (a collapsing dome) although it is far more stable and the overall experience is just better...
If you haven't tried Buckling Spring..that is also something really quite different..For me, I think it feels cheap..and has since it first came out (In my opinion) but some people love them....It will be vastly different from anything you've tried before though..
I personally think rubberdomes feel cheap. Oh! And they are!
Most rubberdome keyboards are cheap....I wish Topre was cheap...
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I prefer Unicomp to Topre switches. Yes, Topres will offer further better typing experience for rubber dome, but is still rubber dome.
BTW I have both an original Model M and Unicomp, and feel there is a little difference between them. However you won't notice it unless comparing them same time.
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I guess another good point with Unicomp is that parts are easily available from them. This would probably benefit you as you are looking to get long term use out of it, mishaps can be repaired easily.
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I prefer Unicomp to Topre switches. Yes, Topres will offer further better typing experience for rubber dome, but is still rubber dome.
And nothing wrong with that. Some people can't get over the fact that it is rubber dome and automatically think that it must be inferior...
If you don't like Topre that's fine..some people don't like how it feels or how it sounds or just prefer the feel of MX or other switches...Other people really like Topre and consider it an end game switch...
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Yes, Topres will offer further better typing experience. for rubber dome, but is still rubber dome.
Fixed this for you :)
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Novatouch4lyfe
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I prefer Unicomp to Topre switches. Yes, Topres will offer further better typing experience for rubber dome, but is still rubber dome.
And nothing wrong with that. Some people can't get over the fact that it is rubber dome and automatically think that it must be inferior...
If you don't like Topre that's fine..some people don't like how it feels or how it sounds or just prefer the feel of MX or other switches...Other people really like Topre and consider it an end game switch...
The thing that drives us all away from cheap membrane keyboards isn't the natural force curve of the rubber dome.
It's the feel of the membranes being mushed... the softness of the cheap, thing, mushy rubber domes... the awful keycaps... the cheap case construction.. the lack of pretty much anything but standard-ish full-size layout... the shallow depth of travel... that terrible sound...
Fix all that and you can actually have a really good feeling while having the force curve given by rubber domes (that is, smooth tactile hump).
That's in essence what Topre keyboards are.
It's kind of like saying you hate 2.0L i4 engines because a lot of them are in crappy VW Jettas/Golfs and are only 115 measily hp and have 8 valves. But a 2.0L engine can be nice if it's, for instance, the 2.0L turbo in an Audi A4 or Focus ST. Still a 2.0L i4, but everything about it and the rest of the experience is completely changed.
Okay, so that was an excuse to type a little more on this HHKB. As is this. :-X
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I prefer Unicomp to Topre switches. Yes, Topres will offer further better typing experience for rubber dome, but is still rubber dome.
Yes, Model M offers a better typing experience for a membrane board, but it's still a membrane.
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I prefer Unicomp to Topre switches. Yes, Topres will offer further better typing experience for rubber dome, but is still rubber dome.
BTW I have both an original Model M and Unicomp, and feel there is a little difference between them. However you won't notice it unless comparing them same time.
Agh, it's a heathen.
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I think with cost being a factor and your preference for buckling springs and a Mac, the unicomp is a sure fire way to start out. And if you find another keyboard that you'd like to move on to, the Unicomp still will hold it's value for you to recoup some of your original investment.
The only downside might be the noise, but only you can make that assessment.
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I think with cost being a factor and your preference for buckling springs and a Mac, the unicomp is a sure fire way to start out. And if you find another keyboard that you'd like to move on to, the Unicomp still will hold it's value for you to recoup some of your original investment.
The only downside might be the noise, but only you can make that assessment.
I would call that "downside" a benefit. Of course you can type on a fancy overpriced rubberdome with little spring supports under each dome if you prefer.
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OP, I think you answered your question. Go for the Unicomp one since you like Buckling Springs. It's a lot cheaper, and since it's your first foray into mechanical keyboards, you'll end up spending less than 100 USD for it. At least you can gauge your interest and then maybe buy a Topre board in the future. :thumb:
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OP, I think you answered your question. Go for the Unicomp one since you like Buckling Springs. It's a lot cheaper, and since it's your first foray into mechanical keyboards, you'll end up spending less than 100 USD for it. At least you can gauge your interest and then maybe buy a Topre board in the future. :thumb:
That's also my opinion.
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I would call that "downside" a benefit. Of course you can type on a fancy overpriced rubberdome with little spring supports under each dome if you prefer.
Is that what you think the spring is for? Sounds like someone who knows nothing about Topre...typical though.
Did the OP say he liked Buckling springs? I thought he said based on the force matrix it looks like something he would like..
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I would call that "downside" a benefit.
For me it is too, but I don't know about the OP's sound requirement, so I put it out there.
There's a nice Unicomp in the classifieds for <$100 shipped. It has the windows keys, which should work okay for the mac as well. I'm tempted to buy it if the OP's not going to having never owned a unicomp myself.
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I would call that "downside" a benefit. Of course you can type on a fancy overpriced rubberdome with little spring supports under each dome if you prefer.
Is that what you think the spring is for? Sounds like someone who knows nothing about Topre...typical though.
Did the OP say he liked Buckling springs? I thought he said based on the force matrix it looks like something he would like..
Be careful what you are saying:
From: The Tech Report (Topre's Type Heaven mechanical keyboard reviewed)
http://techreport.com/review/25558/topre-type-heaven-mechanical-keyboard-reviewed
"According to Topre's original patent application, the electrostatic capacitive switch design combines a conical spring with a rubber dome, and it's actuated capacitively, without requiring the physical coupling of internal parts. What this means is that, when a key is depressed, the top end of the spring is pushed toward an electrode at the bottom until the capacitance reaches a certain threshold. At that threshold, the switch is actuated, and the rubber dome generates a "snap feeling" that gives the user some tactile feedback. The switch can then be pushed farther down until it bottoms out, or it can be allowed to spring back up to its resting position. "
I must really not know. Let me see, here is a NovaTouch Topre design....
http://benchmarkreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/topre_key_diagram.jpg
I am very aware.
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I would call that "downside" a benefit. Of course you can type on a fancy overpriced rubberdome with little spring supports under each dome if you prefer.
Is that what you think the spring is for? Sounds like someone who knows nothing about Topre...typical though.
Did the OP say he liked Buckling springs? I thought he said based on the force matrix it looks like something he would like..
Be careful what you are saying:
From: The Tech Report (Topre's Type Heaven mechanical keyboard reviewed)
http://techreport.com/review/25558/topre-type-heaven-mechanical-keyboard-reviewed
"According to Topre's original patent application, the electrostatic capacitive switch design combines a conical spring with a rubber dome, and it's actuated capacitively, without requiring the physical coupling of internal parts. What this means is that, when a key is depressed, the top end of the spring is pushed toward an electrode at the bottom until the capacitance reaches a certain threshold. At that threshold, the switch is actuated, and the rubber dome generates a "snap feeling" that gives the user some tactile feedback. The switch can then be pushed farther down until it bottoms out, or it can be allowed to spring back up to its resting position. "
I must really not know. Let me see, here is a NovaTouch Topre design....
http://benchmarkreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/topre_key_diagram.jpg
I am very aware.
I know exactly what I'm saying..The spring is there to actually ACTUATE...it is not there for support...It is 100% necessary for the switch to work...the spring isn't there to support anything, it is actually vital to it working...
You just chose your words incorrectly or didn't know how it actually worked...The spring = NOT SUPPORT.
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I know exactly what I'm saying..The spring is there to actually ACTUATE...it is not there for support...It is 100% necessary for the switch to work...the spring isn't there to support anything, it is actually vital to it working...
You just chose your words incorrectly or didn't know how it actually worked...The spring = NOT SUPPORT.
It's a capacitive rubberdome keyboard. A very expensive rubberdome. I never said that was bad. You make more of it than it is.
Edit: And if you want me to get technical, I will.
The LAST sentence in the quote is this: The switch can then be pushed farther down until it bottoms out, or it can be allowed to spring back up to its resting position.
Which means, YES, the spring is used to push the rubberdome up if it is not fully depressed.
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I know exactly what I'm saying..The spring is there to actually ACTUATE...it is not there for support...It is 100% necessary for the switch to work...the spring isn't there to support anything, it is actually vital to it working...
You just chose your words incorrectly or didn't know how it actually worked...The spring = NOT SUPPORT.
It's a capacitive rubberdome keyboard. A very expensive rubberdome. I never said that was bad. You make more of it than it is.
And if you want me to get technical, I will.
The LAST sentence in the quote is this: The switch can then be pushed farther down until it bottoms out, or it can be allowed to spring back up to its resting position.
Which means, YES, the spring is used to push the rubberdome up if it is not fully depressed.
Couldn't be any clearer.
YES the youngster's know what they want, good to see some here can see the the real wood from all the trees growing here in Geekhack Forrest ;) .
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Couldn't be any clearer.
YES the youngster's know what they want, good to see some here can see the the real wood from all the trees growing here in Geekhack Forrest ;) .
I think that is a good thing for a rubberdome keyboard. If you actually like the feel of a rubberdome keyboard. I find the spring to be advantageous to extending its lifespan too. The price isn't justified in my opinion.
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I know exactly what I'm saying..The spring is there to actually ACTUATE...it is not there for support...It is 100% necessary for the switch to work...the spring isn't there to support anything, it is actually vital to it working...
You just chose your words incorrectly or didn't know how it actually worked...The spring = NOT SUPPORT.
It's a capacitive rubberdome keyboard. A very expensive rubberdome. I never said that was bad. You make more of it than it is.
Edit: And if you want me to get technical, I will.
The LAST sentence in the quote is this: The switch can then be pushed farther down until it bottoms out, or it can be allowed to spring back up to its resting position.
Which means, YES, the spring is used to push the rubberdome up if it is not fully depressed.
No it isn't...have you tried pressing it without the spring? You're reading that last sentence wrong but then again, you were already talking about this wrong. The spring itself does nothing except provide the way it actuates.
It extends the life because it doesn't require contact...but the spring has nothing to do with the mechanism...the rubber dome goes up and comes down 100% on its own..at any level of pressing it...Hey, just like a normal rubber dome..amazing..
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I know exactly what I'm saying..The spring is there to actually ACTUATE...it is not there for support...It is 100% necessary for the switch to work...the spring isn't there to support anything, it is actually vital to it working...
You just chose your words incorrectly or didn't know how it actually worked...The spring = NOT SUPPORT.
It's a capacitive rubberdome keyboard. A very expensive rubberdome. I never said that was bad. You make more of it than it is.
Edit: And if you want me to get technical, I will.
The LAST sentence in the quote is this: The switch can then be pushed farther down until it bottoms out, or it can be allowed to spring back up to its resting position.
Which means, YES, the spring is used to push the rubberdome up if it is not fully depressed.
No it isn't...have you tried pressing it without the spring? You're reading that last sentence wrong but then again, you were already talking about this wrong. The spring itself does nothing except provide the way it actuates.
It extends the life because it doesn't require contact...but the spring has nothing to do with the mechanism...the rubber dome goes up and comes down 100% on its own..at any level of pressing it...Hey, just like a normal rubber dome..amazing..
What amazes me is the fact that the people who actually have Topre keyboards go on and on about the spring weight to get the right "feel". Amazing.
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What amazes me is the fact that the people who actually have Topre keyboards go on and on about the spring weight to get the right "feel". Amazing.
You mean the spring under the spacebar? The one that isn't used for actuation? The one that isn't in the switch (it fits between the keycap and the switch). And it is the only key with it? That is the one you're talking about?
Sounds like you're getting the two confused....I take it you've never actually tried topre or seen the insides...
If you're saying they're talking about the springs inside the switch..I have never, ever seen anyone talking about those impacting the feel of the switch..at all..They are all exactly the same and are super light...You can't get them in different weights (that is done by the rubber dome).
When you see people talk about changing the weight of their Topres, it is always swapping the rubber domes...Again, something you'd know if you actually tried or understood Topre....
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What amazes me is the fact that the people who actually have Topre keyboards go on and on about the spring weight to get the right "feel". Amazing.
You mean the spring under the spacebar? The one that isn't used for actuation? The one that isn't in the switch (it fits between the keycap and the switch). And it is the only key with it? That is the one you're talking about?
Sounds like you're getting the two confused....I take it you've never actually tried topre or seen the insides...
If you're saying they're talking about the springs inside the switch..I have never, ever seen anyone talking about those impacting the feel of the switch..at all..They are all exactly the same and are super light...You can't get them in different weights (that is done by the rubber dome).
When you see people talk about changing the weight of their Topres, it is always swapping the rubber domes...Again, something you'd know if you actually tried or understood Topre....
I surrender! You win! Okay! Uncle! I still think the same too.
Edit: Which means, you just told everyone that a Topre keyboard IS a rubberdome, a very expensive rubberdome. Which is what I said in the first place.
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Yeap..and nothing wrong with that.
The funny part is, obviously you've never used it or know much about it...so you're automatically coming to the conclusion it must be inferior strictly on it being rubber dome...
I love when people like that end up trying it for awhile and get converted...
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Yeap..and nothing wrong with that.
The funny part is, obviously you've never used it or know much about it...so you're automatically coming to the conclusion it must be inferior strictly on it being rubber dome...
I love when people like that end up trying it for awhile and get converted...
You're right. I have never used Topre keyboards ever. I am not coming to the conclusion it is inferior at all. I know I don't like rubberdome keyboards, I have had some good ones and a lot of terrible ones. The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I even explained that it might not be bad if the springs were actually pushing back on the domes. You explained that they are just used for capitance connection. That makes sense.
I have the feeling I will not like Topre even after trying it. It seems to be exactly what I don't want in a keyboard.
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Yeap..and nothing wrong with that.
The funny part is, obviously you've never used it or know much about it...so you're automatically coming to the conclusion it must be inferior strictly on it being rubber dome...
I love when people like that end up trying it for awhile and get converted...
You're right. I have never used Topre keyboards ever. I am not coming to the conclusion it is inferior at all. I know I don't like rubberdome keyboards, I have had some good ones and a lot of terrible ones. The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I even explained that it might not be bad if the springs were actually pushing back on the domes. You explained that they are just used for capitance connection. That makes sense.
I have the feeling I will not like Topre even after trying it. It seems to be exactly what I don't want in a keyboard.
I'm mildly disappointed that possibly the majority of this thread was Snowdog endlessly ****ting on a board he's never tried.
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You're right. I have never used Topre keyboards ever. I am not coming to the conclusion it is inferior at all. I know I don't like rubberdome keyboards, I have had some good ones and a lot of terrible ones. The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I even explained that it might not be bad if the springs were actually pushing back on the domes. You explained that they are just used for capitance connection. That makes sense.
I have the feeling I will not like Topre even after trying it. It seems to be exactly what I don't want in a keyboard.
And you're coming to that conclusion having never tried the board because a rubber dome board can't possibly be expensive? Because why?
Its fine if you never want to try the board because you don't think you'll like it..but to make negative comments about a board you've never tried is completely ignorant...but again, the reason this makes me laugh is you're exactly the type of person that gets converted because you've never actually tried it...You're only using the experience you've had with other rubber dome based keyboards...now honestly, if this was just like those, why would anyone spend decent money on them? Not just anyone, other keyboard enthusiasts...
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Yeap..and nothing wrong with that.
The funny part is, obviously you've never used it or know much about it...so you're automatically coming to the conclusion it must be inferior strictly on it being rubber dome...
I love when people like that end up trying it for awhile and get converted...
You're right. I have never used Topre keyboards ever. I am not coming to the conclusion it is inferior at all. I know I don't like rubberdome keyboards, I have had some good ones and a lot of terrible ones. The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I even explained that it might not be bad if the springs were actually pushing back on the domes. You explained that they are just used for capitance connection. That makes sense.
I have the feeling I will not like Topre even after trying it. It seems to be exactly what I don't want in a keyboard.
I'm mildly disappointed that possibly the majority of this thread was Snowdog endlessly ****ting on a board he's never tried.
I wanted to know the truth myself. I won't "****" on Topre. After discussing this, I discovered that it is not the kind of switch I prefer. That's all. Does that mean it's bad? Heck no!
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And you're coming to that conclusion having never tried the board because a rubber dome board can't possibly be expensive? Because why?
Its fine if you never want to try the board because you don't think you'll like it..but to make negative comments about a board you've never tried is completely ignorant...but again, the reason this makes me laugh is you're exactly the type of person that gets converted because you've never actually tried it...You're only using the experience you've had with other rubber dome based keyboards...now honestly, if this was just like those, why would anyone spend decent money on them? Not just anyone, other keyboard enthusiasts...
Without your explanation, I would have not found out about Topre and how it works with the springs. I was under the assumption that maybe they played a role in making them more tactile. Apparently not.
I didn't want to argue with you in the beginning. There must be something that you know that I didn't!
I'm glad for the discussion. I wanted to know! It was important to me because I don't have one.
Other enthusiasts will find that is exactly what they are looking for! I learned. I don't know everything, and I admit it.
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I'd suggest reading your posts..but either way, glad you learned something about how Topre works....Maybe you might even have an open mind if you ever have a chance to try one..
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I'd suggest reading your posts..but either way, glad you learned something about how Topre works....Maybe you might even have an open mind if you ever have a chance to try one..
I think the argument was, is Topre a rubberdome or a mechanical keyboard? That was my dig-in. I was pretty sure it was a capacitive rubberdome. (Which is, what it is!) But I was unsure how the springs actually played a role with the rubberdomes themselves. Maybe I would like it, maybe not!
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For what it's worth, I learned quite a bit about the Topre from the discussion. So while it was heated, it was still productive. No harm, no foul. :thumb:
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The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I'm 150% sure that if Topre switches felt exactly the same, sounded exactly the same, and cost the same -- but inside had some combination of "mechanical" parts, nobody would make this irrelevant comparison.
Seriously, isn't everyone tired of beating this old "b-b-b-but it's not mechanical" dead horse?
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The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I'm 150% sure that if Topre switches felt exactly the same, sounded exactly the same, and cost the same -- but inside had some combination of "mechanical" parts, nobody would make this irrelevant comparison.
Seriously, isn't everyone tired of beating this old "b-b-b-but it's not mechanical" dead horse?
I admit I was beating a dead horse. What I do like about rubberdome keyboards is they feel great to start, but then lose the feeling after using them for several months. Then just get another new one (as long as you can get the one you liked before) when it starts feeling bad.
I suppose you can get an entire replacement of the domes to keep it feeling great. I'm a bit concerned about the aspect of longevity. Hense the questions about the springs.
I didn't mean to be so agressive in my posts, I should have been more open minded about that. However, the longevity factor is a question.
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The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I'm 150% sure that if Topre switches felt exactly the same, sounded exactly the same, and cost the same -- but inside had some combination of "mechanical" parts, nobody would make this irrelevant comparison.
Seriously, isn't everyone tired of beating this old "b-b-b-but it's not mechanical" dead horse?
I admit I was beating a dead horse. What I do like about rubberdome keyboards is they feel great to start, but then lose the feeling after using them for several months. Then just get another new one (as long as you can get the one you liked before) when it starts feeling bad.
I suppose you can get an entire replacement of the domes to keep it feeling great. I'm a bit concerned about the aspect of longevity. Hense the questions about the springs.
I didn't mean to be so agressive in my posts, I should have been more open minded about that. However, the longevity factor is a question.
Just stop. Seriously. It is obvious you are grasping for straws and have no idea what you are talking about.
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The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I'm 150% sure that if Topre switches felt exactly the same, sounded exactly the same, and cost the same -- but inside had some combination of "mechanical" parts, nobody would make this irrelevant comparison.
Seriously, isn't everyone tired of beating this old "b-b-b-but it's not mechanical" dead horse?
I admit I was beating a dead horse. What I do like about rubberdome keyboards is they feel great to start, but then lose the feeling after using them for several months. Then just get another new one (as long as you can get the one you liked before) when it starts feeling bad.
I suppose you can get an entire replacement of the domes to keep it feeling great. I'm a bit concerned about the aspect of longevity. Hense the questions about the springs.
I didn't mean to be so agressive in my posts, I should have been more open minded about that. However, the longevity factor is a question.
I can appreciate the longevity point. That was the primary reason for me getting my first mech board (a Das Ultimate) in 2011. As a coder, I was going through Logitech Wave boards every 3 - 5 months and wanted something that would last.
I bought my first RF 87U variable about three years ago. It's so well used that even the PBT keycaps are getting glossy. It's been my daily driver all this time and still feels the same as the day I bought it. I understand the difference between longevity (I think Topre switches are rated at 60m actuations) and keystroke feel. Point is, I've not seen any feel degradation in three years of service.
I do think there's a breakin period for Topre. My 55g 87U got a bit lighter after about three weeks of use. I considered that it might be my fingers just getting stronger, but I don't think that's the case. It's still a bit stiff for me for long typing sessions, but it did improve. After that breakin period, it has never changed.
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I admit I was beating a dead horse. What I do like about rubberdome keyboards is they feel great to start, but then lose the feeling after using them for several months. Then just get another new one (as long as you can get the one you liked before) when it starts feeling bad.
I suppose you can get an entire replacement of the domes to keep it feeling great. I'm a bit concerned about the aspect of longevity. Hense the questions about the springs.
I didn't mean to be so agressive in my posts, I should have been more open minded about that. However, the longevity factor is a question.
And so you've equated your experience with normal rubber dome keyboards to Topre without having tried it? Obviously without having read much about it either..
I have a Topre from 2008 to give you an idea of how long they go for...The rubber domes are going to last quite awhile...they'll eventually degrade...but outside of that they don't have the problems other boards have because they don't rely on contact..there isn't a soldering point or some sort of contact point that gets worn out....Unless the PCB itself burns out, there is very little that can actually go wrong w/ the board itself...
IMO, they're considerably more reliable than MX boards.....The advantage of MX boards is you can fix it on your own in a lot of cases or salvage parts from it....With Topre you might be able to salvage some parts....but maybe not..Certainly if my Topre boards died for some reason..I'd be taking them apart and saving some of the parts and offering them to others because they're almost impossible to find...
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The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I'm 150% sure that if Topre switches felt exactly the same, sounded exactly the same, and cost the same -- but inside had some combination of "mechanical" parts, nobody would make this irrelevant comparison.
Seriously, isn't everyone tired of beating this old "b-b-b-but it's not mechanical" dead horse?
I admit I was beating a dead horse. What I do like about rubberdome keyboards is they feel great to start, but then lose the feeling after using them for several months. Then just get another new one (as long as you can get the one you liked before) when it starts feeling bad.
I suppose you can get an entire replacement of the domes to keep it feeling great. I'm a bit concerned about the aspect of longevity. Hense the questions about the springs.
I didn't mean to be so agressive in my posts, I should have been more open minded about that. However, the longevity factor is a question.
Just stop. Seriously. It is obvious you are grasping for straws and have no idea what you are talking about.
With Topre, yes. I am justifiably clueless.
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This is why the keyboard gatherings are so important--one gets the ability to be hands on with another product and discuss all this face-to-face. Such fun! Can't believe I missed the Chicago one. :(
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With Topre, yes. I am justifiably clueless.
Yet you wrote this in response to someone saying that to you..
Be careful what you are saying:
From: The Tech Report (Topre's Type Heaven mechanical keyboard reviewed)
http://techreport.com/review/25558/topre-type-heaven-mechanical-keyboard-reviewed
-snip-
I must really not know. Let me see, here is a NovaTouch Topre design....
http://benchmarkreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/topre_key_diagram.jpg
I am very aware.
Anyways, all good...
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With Topre, yes. I am justifiably clueless.
Yet you wrote this in response to someone saying that to you..
Be careful what you are saying:
From: The Tech Report (Topre's Type Heaven mechanical keyboard reviewed)
http://techreport.com/review/25558/topre-type-heaven-mechanical-keyboard-reviewed
-snip-
I must really not know. Let me see, here is a NovaTouch Topre design....
http://benchmarkreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/topre_key_diagram.jpg
I am very aware.
Anyways, all good...
Thanks. I was being a bit of an idiot talking about something I have no clue about. I just dug in from what I read. It's stupid.
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OP's first and only post (so far).
I wonder if the discussion has been enlightening.
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It has for me, so at least one person got benefit from it. :thumb:
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Sorry for disappearing, been busy traveling for the past month and didn't get a chance to look at this thread.
Based on what I've read, I've decided to go with the Unicomp. It should provide a similar typing experience as the Model M, is built like a tank, and is cheaper than the topres. I still like the HHKB for its layout, but I can't justify the price difference between the two just yet. Of course, in traditional geekhack fashion, I'll probably end up owning all three keyboards eventually, but the Unicomp will be a good one to start with.
Thank you everyone for the help, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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Sorry for disappearing, been busy traveling for the past month and didn't get a chance to look at this thread.
Based on what I've read, I've decided to go with the Unicomp. It should provide a similar typing experience as the Model M, is built like a tank, and is cheaper than the topres. I still like the HHKB for its layout, but I can't justify the price difference between the two just yet. Of course, in traditional geekhack fashion, I'll probably end up owning all three keyboards eventually, but the Unicomp will be a good one to start with.
Thank you everyone for the help, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Great choice! And after I've bought a few things from Unicomp, you can easily get a new one with the mac keys on it for under $100. Well worth it too.
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Sorry for disappearing, been busy traveling for the past month and didn't get a chance to look at this thread.
Based on what I've read, I've decided to go with the Unicomp. It should provide a similar typing experience as the Model M, is built like a tank, and is cheaper than the topres. I still like the HHKB for its layout, but I can't justify the price difference between the two just yet. Of course, in traditional geekhack fashion, I'll probably end up owning all three keyboards eventually, but the Unicomp will be a good one to start with.
Thank you everyone for the help, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Were you lucky enough to get the discount?
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Sorry for disappearing, been busy traveling for the past month and didn't get a chance to look at this thread.
Based on what I've read, I've decided to go with the Unicomp. It should provide a similar typing experience as the Model M, is built like a tank, and is cheaper than the topres. I still like the HHKB for its layout, but I can't justify the price difference between the two just yet. Of course, in traditional geekhack fashion, I'll probably end up owning all three keyboards eventually, but the Unicomp will be a good one to start with.
Thank you everyone for the help, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Were you lucky enough to get the discount?
Yeah, that cyber monday discount was pretty sweet.
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Yeap..and nothing wrong with that.
The funny part is, obviously you've never used it or know much about it...so you're automatically coming to the conclusion it must be inferior strictly on it being rubber dome...
I love when people like that end up trying it for awhile and get converted...
You're right. I have never used Topre keyboards ever. I am not coming to the conclusion it is inferior at all. I know I don't like rubberdome keyboards, I have had some good ones and a lot of terrible ones. The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I even explained that it might not be bad if the springs were actually pushing back on the domes. You explained that they are just used for capitance connection. That makes sense.
I have the feeling I will not like Topre even after trying it. It seems to be exactly what I don't want in a keyboard.
I am regularly perplexed by the number of people who say Topre keyboards are "very overpriced". If you buy a Filco with Cherry MX switches and pick up some PBT keycaps for it (which come stock on Realforce and HHKB boards, with the exception of Type Heaven), you're close to the same price. Most Topre boards are made in Japan. Filco is not. If someone is complaining about Topre being $20 more at that point and calling themselves a keyboard enthusiast, I'd say they were just a whiner.
Realforce does have a full size Topre keyboard with ABS keycaps and made in China. It's $151:
http://www.amazon.com/Topre-Type-Heaven-104-key-Keyboard/dp/B00DGJALYW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449262496&sr=8-1&keywords=realforce+type+heaven
Filco has a full size board with ABS keycaps and Cherry browns. It's $169:
http://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-2-Keyboard-FKBN104M-EB2/dp/B004VKUSG6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1449262532&sr=8-6&keywords=filco+keyboard
If you want to express your reasons why you don't like Topre keyboards, great. But at least stick to points that have merit.
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Yeap..and nothing wrong with that.
The funny part is, obviously you've never used it or know much about it...so you're automatically coming to the conclusion it must be inferior strictly on it being rubber dome...
I love when people like that end up trying it for awhile and get converted...
You're right. I have never used Topre keyboards ever. I am not coming to the conclusion it is inferior at all. I know I don't like rubberdome keyboards, I have had some good ones and a lot of terrible ones. The point I was making was that for a rubberdome, a Topre is very overpriced.
I even explained that it might not be bad if the springs were actually pushing back on the domes. You explained that they are just used for capitance connection. That makes sense.
I have the feeling I will not like Topre even after trying it. It seems to be exactly what I don't want in a keyboard.
I am regularly perplexed by the number of people who say Topre keyboards are "very overpriced". If you buy a Filco with Cherry MX switches and pick up some PBT keycaps for it (which come stock on Realforce and HHKB boards, with the exception of Type Heaven), you're close to the same price. Most Topre boards are made in Japan. Filco is not. If someone is complaining about Topre being $20 more at that point and calling themselves a keyboard enthusiast, I'd say they were just a whiner.
Realforce does have a full size Topre keyboard with ABS keycaps and made in China. It's $151:
http://www.amazon.com/Topre-Type-Heaven-104-key-Keyboard/dp/B00DGJALYW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449262496&sr=8-1&keywords=realforce+type+heaven
Filco has a full size board with ABS keycaps and Cherry browns. It's $169:
http://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-2-Keyboard-FKBN104M-EB2/dp/B004VKUSG6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1449262532&sr=8-6&keywords=filco+keyboard
If you want to express your reasons why you don't like Topre keyboards, great. But at least stick to points that have merit.
You just simply can't compare a Topre to a Buckling Spring. It makes no sense at all.