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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ComradeSniper on Wed, 21 October 2015, 23:36:44
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I pulled this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63579387@N06/sets/72157660145664992) computer out of a pile at the e-cycler last weekend and noticed that they keyboard had some switches that I'd never seen mentioned here on GH--SKCM Amber Alps. Searching returned a few results, but still relatively little discussion on them.
I'm very impressed by these switches. They're very similar to SKCM Blue Alps, but they seem a bit more tactile and clicky to me. I'd be tempted to swap them into my Kingsaver if the keyboard had more switches to salvage.
The Deskthority wiki says that the Apple IIC's keyboard is the only board to have used these switches. Still, I'm surprised that the demand for them isn't greater. They feel awesome.
Has anyone else run across an Apple IIC?
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ALPs are actually the only switch type I haven't tried, do they have multiple types, similar to MX? Or do all of them feel relatively alike, with only minor differences?
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ALPs are actually the only switch type I haven't tried, do they have multiple types, similar to MX? Or do all of them feel relatively alike, with only minor differences?
"Alps" is just a catch all term people tend to use when referring to Alps-mount switches, regardless of whether they were actually made by Alps or not. You can skim the DT page on SKCM/SKCL alps to get a glimpse of the number of variants that were made http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series. They're all pretty different, even within switches of the same "family" (i.e SKCL Greens and SKCL Yellows are both linear but have different spring weights).
More on topic, I've run across one before but didn't play around with it too much. Might try to look around e-cyclers around my area to pick one up for cheapish.
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ALPs are actually the only switch type I haven't tried, do they have multiple types, similar to MX? Or do all of them feel relatively alike, with only minor differences?
Oh no, Alps made way more switches than Cherry ever did. Usually people refer to the SKCL/SKCM series aka complicated Alps, which spans a wide range of very different switches already, but then there's all other kinds of switch series they made before as well which are completely different yet again. And that's not to mention the legions of clones and Alps-inspired switches :) .
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Sigh.. I have an Apple IIc, but it's got the hairpin spring switches, which suck. I love the computer, though, it's what I first learnt to program with and I may give it a keyboard upgrade gift if I can ever find a Memory Expansion Apple IIc that's non-functional (it's hard to tell them apart, as the outside markings are the same for all types of IIc except the plus). It's always seemed to me to be more "personal" than any other Personal Computer I've used. I still clearly remember the floppy drive sounds as it booted. Ah, nostalgia :rolleyes:
That's a lovely example you've got. Definitely a keeper, IMO.
Isn't it odd having the D and K as homing keys? ;D
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I pulled this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63579387@N06/sets/72157660145664992) computer out of a pile at the e-cycler last weekend and noticed that they keyboard had some switches that I'd never seen mentioned here on GH--SKCM Amber Alps. Searching returned a few results, but still relatively little discussion on them.
I'm very impressed by these switches. They're very similar to SKCM Blue Alps, but they seem a bit more tactile and clicky to me. I'd be tempted to swap them into my Kingsaver if the keyboard had more switches to salvage.
The Deskthority wiki says that the Apple IIC's keyboard is the only board to have used these switches. Still, I'm surprised that the demand for them isn't greater. They feel awesome.
Has anyone else run across an Apple IIC?
Awesome, i've wanted to try amber alps for a while. IIc is one of my favorite computer designs so i'd feel bad harvesting switches though :D the ambers are relatively unknown because the IIc is the only known board to use them.
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Isn't it odd having the D and K as homing keys? ;D
yeah, probably common for apple boards(?) since the extended II i have here has the same thing.
kind of off-putting really, because it actually does make my brain think that i should move my hands 1 column further :-X
as for alps, i prefer them over cherries. not sure why exactly. they just feel smoother..?
but like with cherries, i don't like the tactility of them. both switches have a nasty kind of tactility :P
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Isn't it odd having the D and K as homing keys? ;D
yeah, probably common for apple boards(?) since the extended II i have here has the same thing.
kind of off-putting really, because it actually does make my brain think that i should move my hands 1 column further :-X
i built my alps64 with aek caps and got used to the d/k so i switched my hhkb too and i love it :-X
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I pulled this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63579387@N06/sets/72157660145664992) computer out of a pile at the e-cycler last weekend and noticed that they keyboard had some switches that I'd never seen mentioned here on GH--SKCM Amber Alps. Searching returned a few results, but still relatively little discussion on them.
I'm very impressed by these switches. They're very similar to SKCM Blue Alps, but they seem a bit more tactile and clicky to me. I'd be tempted to swap them into my Kingsaver if the keyboard had more switches to salvage.
The Deskthority wiki says that the Apple IIC's keyboard is the only board to have used these switches. Still, I'm surprised that the demand for them isn't greater. They feel awesome.
Has anyone else run across an Apple IIC?
I'm surprised you found a A2S4000 with Amber/Taxi Yellow Alps. I thought they were only on the A2S4100 models. The later A2S4000's must have started the switch to them.
I've been searching eBay for busted IIC's for the last few months looking to pick up a cheap one to get these switches to throw in a 60%, but have had exactly zero luck. I am mad jelly that you found one.
I threatened it before, but I think it's official, I'm going to camp outside your house and buy all your alps finds >:D
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I'd love to try the ambers, how's their weight compared to blues?
I need to get my **** together and build some Alps boards. I have blues and browns just sitting around because I've been too busy for keyboards.
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Sigh.. I have an Apple IIc, but it's got the hairpin spring switches, which suck. I love the computer, though, it's what I first learnt to program with and I may give it a keyboard upgrade gift if I can ever find a Memory Expansion Apple IIc that's non-functional (it's hard to tell them apart, as the outside markings are the same for all types of IIc except the plus). It's always seemed to me to be more "personal" than any other Personal Computer I've used. I still clearly remember the floppy drive sounds as it booted. Ah, nostalgia :rolleyes:
That's a lovely example you've got. Definitely a keeper, IMO.
Isn't it odd having the D and K as homing keys? ;D
Thanks! I wish that mine wasn't missing the right bracket, but at least it's in nice shape otherwise.
Definitely does feel weird having the homing keys there. Dunno if I could get used to that.
as for alps, i prefer them over cherries. not sure why exactly. they just feel smoother..?
Stock alps are waaaaay smoother than stock MX switches IMO, especially linears. I wonder what a board full of lubed green alps skcl would be like. :)
I'm surprised you found a A2S4000 with Amber/Taxi Yellow Alps. I thought they were only on the A2S4100 models. The later A2S4000's must have started the switch to them.
I've been searching eBay for busted IIC's for the last few months looking to pick up a cheap one to get these switches to throw in a 60%, but have had exactly zero luck. I am mad jelly that you found one.
I threatened it before, but I think it's official, I'm going to camp outside your house and buy all your alps finds >:D
Interesting! I had no idea about the model numbers. I guess that gives you a greater number of possible amber alps containing boards then. :p
This e-cycler visit was a really good one for Alps. I can only hope that I'm equally lucky in the future. :D
I'd love to try the ambers, how's their weight compared to blues?
I need to get my **** together and build some Alps boards. I have blues and browns just sitting around because I've been too busy for keyboards.
Weight wise they seem pretty similar to blues. They might be just a little heavier than blues before the tactile bump, but after it they have a much sharper drop to bottom out.
Thinking about building a 60% with these switches, but I would feel kinda guilty gutting this board.
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I'd love to try the ambers, how's their weight compared to blues?
I need to get my **** together and build some Alps boards. I have blues and browns just sitting around because I've been too busy for keyboards.
Weight wise they seem pretty similar to blues. They might be just a little heavier than blues before the tactile bump, but after it they have a much sharper drop to bottom out.
Thinking about building a 60% with these switches, but I would feel kinda guilty gutting this board.
I feel the same way about my alps boards so my plan is to gut them then add matias switches so they aren't totally dead/useless.
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Oooo, I'd love to try those.
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Oooo, I'd love to try those.
Me too. Every time I found a board with them though, the board or system went for more than $200.
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as for alps, i prefer them over cherries. not sure why exactly. they just feel smoother..?
Stock alps are waaaaay smoother than stock MX switches IMO, especially linears. I wonder what a board full of lubed green alps skcl would be like. :)
i'd planned to krytox my green alps, but the keyboard isn't functioning properly :(
it's an XT board and i'm using a converter, but periodically my PC doesn't seem to register a (de)press..
unless i actually get it fixed, i'm not gonna bother wasting lube/time on it..
real shame, because i so dig that board! : (
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i'd planned to krytox my green alps, but the keyboard isn't functioning properly :(
I think dry lube would be better for Alps. A little Molybdenum Disulfide goes a long way.
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I'd love to try the ambers, how's their weight compared to blues?
I need to get my **** together and build some Alps boards. I have blues and browns just sitting around because I've been too busy for keyboards.
Weight wise they seem pretty similar to blues. They might be just a little heavier than blues before the tactile bump, but after it they have a much sharper drop to bottom out.
Thinking about building a 60% with these switches, but I would feel kinda guilty gutting this board.
I feel the same way about my alps boards so my plan is to gut them then add matias switches so they aren't totally dead/useless.
Every time I go to gut one of my old alps boards I end up putting away the soldering iron. Just doesn't feel right to take them apart, even if I never use them and bought them for the express purpose of being parts donors.
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ALPs are actually the only switch type I haven't tried, do they have multiple types, similar to MX? Or do all of them feel relatively alike, with only minor differences?
Oh no, Alps made way more switches than Cherry ever did. Usually people refer to the SKCL/SKCM series aka complicated Alps, which spans a wide range of very different switches already, but then there's all other kinds of switch series they made before as well which are completely different yet again. And that's not to mention the legions of clones and Alps-inspired switches :) .
Ah, don't get people confused there. Number of types of switches, certainly they had a greater variety. In terms of quantity produced, much fewer.
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I'd love to try the ambers, how's their weight compared to blues?
I need to get my **** together and build some Alps boards. I have blues and browns just sitting around because I've been too busy for keyboards.
Weight wise they seem pretty similar to blues. They might be just a little heavier than blues before the tactile bump, but after it they have a much sharper drop to bottom out.
Thinking about building a 60% with these switches, but I would feel kinda guilty gutting this board.
I feel the same way about my alps boards so my plan is to gut them then add matias switches so they aren't totally dead/useless.
Every time I go to gut one of my old alps boards I end up putting away the soldering iron. Just doesn't feel right to take them apart, even if I never use them and bought them for the express purpose of being parts donors.
HAHA its the same for me. I cant defile rare alps keyboards no matter how badly I want the switches.
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I've got a line on one of these... been messaging the seller and hoping to close the deal. It's also an older model, but has the Amber Alps switches.
I'll most likely use it as it is, since it appears to be a fully functional one and includes some software :) I may even continue to code one or two unfinished projects from the late 80's :thumb:
I definitely couldn't bring myself to cannibalising the machine just for the switches.
Nostalgia and keyboard awesomeness all in one.
<update - bought it... very excited to try it out>
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ALPs are actually the only switch type I haven't tried, do they have multiple types, similar to MX? Or do all of them feel relatively alike, with only minor differences?
Oh no, Alps made way more switches than Cherry ever did. Usually people refer to the SKCL/SKCM series aka complicated Alps, which spans a wide range of very different switches already, but then there's all other kinds of switch series they made before as well which are completely different yet again. And that's not to mention the legions of clones and Alps-inspired switches :) .
Ah, don't get people confused there. Number of types of switches, certainly they had a greater variety. In terms of quantity produced, much fewer.
Now, probably, as they're no longer made. Back in the day Alps was huge.
Also, somewhat unfairly maybe, Alps nowadays probably still makes more generic switches than Cherry xD .
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I pulled this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63579387@N06/sets/72157660145664992) computer out of a pile at the e-cycler last weekend... The Deskthority wiki says that the Apple IIC's keyboard is the only board to have used these switches...
:thumb: fer sure! I loved my Apple //c. It was super-fast and responsive. After the Model M, I generally consider the //c my epitome of a clicky KB.
My //c was gone long before I developed any awareness of KB technology, so it's quite fun to learn what was under there. Thanks for the thread!
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The Apple has landed!
Got it yesterday, fully functional (even wrote a few simple BASIC programs just to see if I remember how):
[attach=1]
And that's an Amber / "Taxi Yellow" Alps:
[attach=2]
Kind of surprising since it's also an A2S4000 model, not the expansion ROM one... Will check the ROM version when I get home.
About the switches: Best discrete clicky switches I have yet tried! On par with Model F in terms of how much I like them. Very different experience, though. The weight is hard to judge... After trying a few times, switching between my ErgoClears and this I'd say they're quite similar, but with the different force profile it's hard to tell. I don't think the Deskthority values of 80-100cN are correct, more like 70-85 in my estimation. I'll try to do a better comparison / weight test later. The click sounds are nice, deeper than Blues, quieter than Model M and F.
The difference between the hairpin spring switches and these is like night and day. I'd have been even more addicted to my IIc back in the day if it had this board!
One nice thing about the board is that it's modular, so if I make a new case and an adapter I can hook it up to a Teensy and have a nice 60%-ish programmable board running on USB that can be switched back into the IIc without any soldering / desoldering. Should make a nice conversation piece, too :)
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One nice thing about the board is that it's modular, so if I make a new case and an adapter I can hook it up to a Teensy and have a nice 60%-ish programmable board running on USB that can be switched back into the IIc without any soldering / desoldering. Should make a nice conversation piece, too :)
Yup! You could get the RetroConnector keyboard shield for Apple IIc, http://retroconnector.com/products/apple-ii/keyboard-shield-for-apple-iic-or-iic/ (http://retroconnector.com/products/apple-ii/keyboard-shield-for-apple-iic-or-iic/)
...or simply make one yourself with a Teensy++ and a protoype board to use with the RetroConnector firmware. Like so:
[attach=1] [attach=2] [attach=3]
Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to make a decent case for this.
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One nice thing about the board is that it's modular, so if I make a new case and an adapter I can hook it up to a Teensy and have a nice 60%-ish programmable board running on USB that can be switched back into the IIc without any soldering / desoldering. Should make a nice conversation piece, too :)
Yup! You could get the RetroConnector keyboard shield for Apple IIc, http://retroconnector.com/products/apple-ii/keyboard-shield-for-apple-iic-or-iic/ (http://retroconnector.com/products/apple-ii/keyboard-shield-for-apple-iic-or-iic/)
...or simply make one yourself with a Teensy++ and a protoype board to use with the RetroConnector firmware. Like so:
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to make a decent case for this.
Awesome! Thanks for the link. That board deserves on of your custom wooden cases :D :thumb:
It's probably possible to make a special connector and cable (maybe use a short ethernet cable) to pass through the disk activity lines from the motherboard as well so both LED's on the board function like on the original... hmmm.. new project ideas.
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The problem with amber Alps is that, since the only reliable source of them is Apple //c keyboards, they tend to either be very expensive or in very poor condition or both in e.g. eBay auctions.
As a part built into a computer with no external case to block out dust, odds are good that any particular //c keyboard will be somewhere between unpleasantly scratchy and completely unusable. Old one-piece computers like this tend to get left on a shelf without any protection. Keyboards from the same era that were built into laptops or luggables where the keyboard is protected by the screen are in my experience dramatically more likely to be in good condition.
For decently priced amber Alps switches, the ideal is to find an Apple //c which was stored in a box for 30 years but has a dead motherboard or something (to make it less desirable to Apple II collectors). I bought three relatively cheap ones (all broken computers) about a year and a half ago, but the best of the three was still in pretty rough shape.
Edit:
Me too. Every time I found a board with them though, the board or system went for more than $200.
Here are a few of the cheaper eBay auctions from the last few months, probably all pretty mediocre condition http://www.ebay.com/itm/291574599805?orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com/itm/231733724258?orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com/itm/151865805123?orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com/itm/281822472815?orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com/itm/252062458719?orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com/itm/141783031456?orig_cvip=true
Current price floor seems to be about $50 shipped.
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When in decent condition, these are pretty similar in stiffness and feel to white Alps or Matias clicky switches, but a bit smoother and with a slightly snappier click. They’re noticeably stiffer than blue or orange Alps, with both a heavier spring and a stiffer click leaf.
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A couple of interesting things to note about the layout:
1. It's 0.5u narrower than a "normal" ANSI 60% due to the symmetrical Shifts, 1.75u Enter, 1u "\|" and 1.5u Delete. Apple has used this shortened layout on a lot of their boards, including the newer MacBooks.
2. Control and Caps positions :) For all you Caps / Ctrl swappers.
3. Only thumb operated modifiers on the bottom row (open and closed Apple)
4. D and K homing bumps.
I'm not a fan of the arrows layout, never have been, but otherwise it's really nice to use.
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Yes, Alps is about the best electronic switch manufacturer on the planet and one of the very best for trim-pots and potentiometers. Alps blueVelvet pots are about the nicest that you can get in the $20 or less category.
Cherry only makes a few things and they specialized in keyboard switches.... very different.
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The Apple has landed!
Got it yesterday, fully functional (even wrote a few simple BASIC programs just to see if I remember how):
(Attachment Link)
And that's an Amber / "Taxi Yellow" Alps:
(Attachment Link)
Kind of surprising since it's also an A2S4000 model, not the expansion ROM one... Will check the ROM version when I get home.
Thanks for all the info Oobly. I'm gonna try and hunt one down to try out for myself :D
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Thanks for all the info Oobly. I'm gonna try and hunt one down to try out for myself :D
Hey now, don't be driving up the prices on things I'm watching! :mad:
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Hey now, don't be driving up the prices on things I'm watching! :mad:
You obviously don't know my MO. Drive up prices? What does that mean?
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Hey now, don't be driving up the prices on things I'm watching! :mad:
You obviously don't know my MO. Drive up prices? What does that mean?
You're gonna take the packages off my doorstep aren't you? :'(
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This needs to be bumped up and amber alps inflation needs to be the next thing :)
Seriously though, as the subject says, ambers are seriously underrated. A bit heavier than the blues, and with a different force curve, they bring something of their own into the mix. And the sound is absolutely gorgeous. If you love a heavy switch, and yearn for a heavy, clicky sound, you owe yourself to try these.
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Ah, I completely forgot about this topic xD . Yeah, these are really cool guys, I enjoy them a lot. Not quite as versatile as blues probably, but I'm sure tactile-heavy people will love these. They're easily among the most tactile switches I've ever tried, makes the Model F feel linear by comparison Oo .