geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 07 November 2009, 21:43:48

Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 07 November 2009, 21:43:48: How many of you use keyboard trays and how many don't?

I have always believed that the height and angle at which one is using one's keyboard can make a big difference in feel and accuracy. I have not change my ideas. I tried my Topre on a keyboard tray the other day and it felt much much better than when I'm not using it on a keyboard tray.

One interesting thing, in my case, is because of this I learned that there were special screws for particle boards. I took a keyboard tray and fixed it to my Ikea table. It did not work well because I was using regular wood screws. I have to try again with particle board screws, but I'm too busy currently.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: hyperlinked on Sat, 07 November 2009, 22:49:53: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;130935
How many of you use keyboard trays and how many don't?

I wouldn't type without one. I also have an ergonomic laptop platform to make it more hand friendly to type on when I do need to make extended use of my laptop. I have a decent adjustmable Kensington keyboard tray that adjusts every which direction, but it doesn't lock in position as well as I'd like and peripherals don't sit as securely on it as I'd like. The next time I get a keyboard tray, I'll probably pick through Ms Keyboard's offerings (http://www.fentek-ind.com/keyboardtrey.htm#akd95cg). They look to be better options than what I've got and they're priced equivalently.

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;130935
I have always believed that the height and angle at which one is using one's keyboard can make a big difference in feel and accuracy.

There's nothing magical about a keyboard tray, it's just that the height of your average table is designed for writing, not for typing. If you're very tall, you might be better off with the keyboard on the table and with a stand to boost the monitor a bit higher.

For your average person though, the keyboard tray makes any desk more ergonomically friendly. You know the drill... elbows at roughly 90 degrees, etc. Your feet should be soundly on the floor so not all your weight is on your butt.

So yeah, you can probably expect an overall improvement in performance for the average person. A properly setup workstation improves your comfort and endurance.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 08 November 2009, 08:11:07: The trouble with keyboard trays is I would be constantly banging my legs against them. I'd probably end up ripping my trousers on most of them.

I would like one on a higher desk though. Maybe with a clear section in the main desk so you can see the keyboard while it is still tucked underneath. More for psychological reasons than necessity. That would look smart.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 09:11:59: Quote from: hyperlinked;130940
The next time I get a keyboard tray, I'll probably pick through Ms Keyboard's offerings (http://www.fentek-ind.com/keyboardtrey.htm#akd95cg). They look to be better options than what I've got and they're priced equivalently.

This is a nice one. I already ordered a Kensington though :-( I may reconsider in the future especially since the one you liked to does not need to be screwed to the desk.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 09:34:00: Quote from: ripster;130943
I already posted about keyboard trays here (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=90550&postcount=21) but I just wanted to say that particle board is tough to really attach securely to. The only thing that really is secure is a t-nut and screw arrangement. Or take good quality plywood and then glue AND screw to particle board. Then attach keyboard tray to the plywood.
Show Image
(http://biggerbids.com/members/images/10901/public/605250_t-nut-and-screw.jpg)

and even then don't lean on it ....

It's true that it's very tough to secure anything to a particle board. I learned this again yesterday when I was replacing my range hood. The good think is that I don't lean on the keyboard tray whenever I'm using one, and I don't rest my wrists when I'm typing.

I will try the plywood trick if I can. I'm not a very handyman type person.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 09:38:08: Ripster: If I were to do the plywood thing, I should probaly turn the table upside down and put significant weight on the plywood after I've applied the glue right?
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 09:46:33: Quote from: ripster;130992
Actually the best way is:

* predrill screw holes in plywood (a little smaller than screw)
* apply any good wood glue - the Gorilla stuff is messy and almost any white glue ends up being stronger than the wood in tests I've seen
* Then drive the screws - that will act as a clamp.

Either turn the table upside down or put a tarp on the floor because it will get messy.

Thanks. I've come a long way. First, I learned about the various kinds of keyboards, then I collected a lot of them, then I learned how to open a Cherry switch, and now I learn who to do "wood working." Wow!!!
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: chongyixiong on Sun, 08 November 2009, 10:00:04: I always face this problem too.

If they're on the table they're too high.
With a keyboard tray they're too low... I kinda need it to float on the table.

But seriously, who sits straight at the workstation for countless hours, we tend to slack after awhile, well.. not ture if you have one of those ergonomic chairs I guess.

But I really tend to slouch after some time, then propping back up for another half an hour or so before slouching for another half an hour.. and the cycle goes on and on.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 10:01:31: Quote from: ripster;130999
You're welcome. Just don't want that new keyboard tray to plummet to the floor along with a new keyboard!

Of course not especially if the Topre will be on the tray :-) Now that I think about it, I did the same thing my garage. I wanted to screw some hooks to hang my stuffs. I used 4x6 wood, and fixed them to the wall. After that I can screw hooks anywhere on the wood without having to worry about finding the studs behind the drywalls.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 10:03:29: Quote from: chongyixiong;131000
I always face this problem too.

If they're on the table they're too high.
With a keyboard tray they're too low... I kinda need it to float on the table.

But seriously, who sits straight at the workstation for countless hours, we tend to slack after awhile, well.. not ture if you have one of those ergonomic chairs I guess.

But I really tend to slouch after some time, then propping back up for another half an hour or so before slouching for another half an hour.. and the cycle goes on and on.

I had a table which had the perfect height keyboard tray for me, but it was not wide enough and therefore, I could not put my mouse beside my keyboard.

We do tend to take bad posture at the keyboard, this is why we need to take frequent break. The more tired we are the more we will take a bad posture. Easier said than done though.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 08 November 2009, 10:29:27: Quote from: chongyixiong;131000
But seriously, who sits straight at the workstation for countless hours, we tend to slack after awhile, well.. not ture if you have one of those ergonomic chairs I guess.

Bingo. A good chair matters and also awareness of how to use that chair or any chair for that matter. Even if you don't have a really fancy chair, you can get some posture relief by scooting all the way to the lip of the chair so that you're almost falling off. This allows you to transer a lot more weight to your legs for a while and also if the pressure on the underside of your thighs messes with your circulation, this sitting posture may give you some relief there.

Posture is a chain reaction. It's hard to have good posture one spot and bad posture elsewhere because when things aren't in balance, it takes a lot more muscular effort to keep them in the "ideal" position so you're more likely to slack.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 November 2009, 14:14:18: Quote from: hyperlinked;131013

Posture is a chain reaction. It's hard to have good posture one spot and bad posture elsewhere because when things aren't in balance, it takes a lot more muscular effort to keep them in the "ideal" position so you're more likely to slack.

I think sitting by itself is very bad for the back. I also read somewhere that regardless of how ergonomic our workstation is, we should still take break because even ergonomic workstations can be bad after too long.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 08 November 2009, 16:01:12: Quote from: patrickgeekhack;131041
I think sitting by itself is very bad for the back. I also read somewhere that regardless of how ergonomic our workstation is, we should still take break because even ergonomic workstations can be bad after too long.

Nothing wrong with sitting. It's spending an entire day that's can be challenging to your body. Yeah, take breaks... stretch... get those legs moving... exercise.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 09 November 2009, 09:21:48: I don't really care for keyboard trays. IMO, they sit too low, and they jack up my keyboard to monitor height ratio. I like my monitors positioned so that my eyes line up with the top of the screen. Because of this, my legs are usually in the position where a keyboard tray would be.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 13:50:05: Instead of sending me the keyboard tray, the store sent me Steelseries feet for mice :-(
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 14:00:26: I don't use keyboard trays. I just have all my computers on a few big tables and there's room for all the keyboards there.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: wordfool on Sat, 21 November 2009, 14:13:27: The only keyboard tray I've ever liked was some uber-articulating jobby that a former employer spent big bucks on (the only employer/publisher I ever worked at that took ergonomics seriously). You could pull it out then raise it from really low to higher than the desk. It was perfect. Every other kb tray I've used has been crap (too low or not adjustable enough) and not worth the effort. In my home office I simply raise my chair high enough, use a footrest and have a desk with no thigh obstructions. Monitor is on an adjustable arm.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: Vehementi on Sat, 21 November 2009, 15:14:06: Do you feel there are advantages of a tray over a height-adjustable desk adjusted to the correct height?
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 18:14:26: No idea. I have experience with neither.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 19:09:14: I bet my old CRT's would make that thing collapse.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: Vehementi on Sat, 21 November 2009, 19:13:23: Quote from: ripster;135080

Don't know how sturdy the height adjustable tables are either. This one sure looks iffy.
[IMG]http://static.www.odc

My old desk was the Ikea JERKER desk which is sturdy as ****. Current desk is a newer Ikea desk and the 5 legs can twist-unlock and then extend a bit then twist-lock.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 19:48:56: I've heard that the Idea stuff isn't of the highest quality. How well does it work for computer set-ups?
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: Vehementi on Sat, 21 November 2009, 19:59:25: Sturdy as ****, and of course sturdy enough for ****ing...

What do you mean how well does it hold up for computers? Do you think they would make a desk that doesn't support 50 lbs of weight or whatever? I can stand and walk around on it.

My jerker (in old place, I no longer use it) : http://www3.telus.net/vehementi/pics/new_workspace.jpg

Here's a bad picture of my current desk, it is more study though: http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4206/photo1qa.jpg

This is the desk though http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/S99806947
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:07:01: Quote from: microsoft windows;135003
I don't use keyboard trays. I just have all my computers on a few big tables and there's room for all the keyboards there.

There's no middle ground when it comes to keyboard tray. Some like it, some don't. I, personally, happen to like it. There are some people at work who don't. And there are also those who think their wrists should be negatively tilted at all cost. In the end, from the side their arms make the shape of a graph where the stock market crashed , rebounded somewhat, and then crashed a bit again.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:11:15: Quote from: Vehementi;135105
My jerker (in old place, I no longer use it)

I'm very sorry to hear that.:violin:
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:11:22: Is that your computing set-up?
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:12:14: I have the Vikka Amon. I don't like the curve shape in a desk.
http://img4.realsimple.com/images/tv/episode-102/102-gal-vika-table_300.jpg
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:13:09: Quote from: microsoft windows;135111
Is that your computing set-up?

I think it's iMav's desk, isn't it?
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:13:30: I've basically got a couple of those big plastic Lifetime tables that have been around for years. One's starting to sag in the middle from holding a bog monitor for so long...
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:17:21: Quote from: microsoft windows;135114
I've basically got a couple of those big plastic Lifetime tables that have been around for years. One's starting to sag in the middle from holding a bog monitor for so long...

I thought about such a table, but it was not cheaper than the Ikea desk. I like the Vikka table, it's just that the height is not optimized for typing, this is why I'm adding a keyboard tray.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:26:42: I've always hated keyboard trays. Why? Because many of them are designed by idiots who think people never use this thing called a "mouse". Over 99% of the keyboard trays I've used are only large enough to fit a crappy rubber dome keyboard.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 20:37:01: Quote from: microsoft windows;135121
I've always hated keyboard trays. Why? Because many of them are designed by idiots who think people never use this thing called a "mouse". Over 99% of the keyboard trays I've used are only large enough to fit a crappy rubber dome keyboard.

You are not incorrect in saying that many keyboard trays are not wide enough to accomodate a mouse. This is why I made sure the width of the one I was going to buy was wide enough to fit a mouse.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 22 November 2009, 00:21:13: Quote from: microsoft windows;135121
I've always hated keyboard trays. Why? Because many of them are designed by idiots who think people never use this thing called a "mouse". Over 99% of the keyboard trays I've used are only large enough to fit a crappy rubber dome keyboard.

So uh, Microsoft Windows? I think it's time to have a talk. It's time to upgrade to a new mail order catalog. So, uh, about the stuff that's in your Sears mail order catalog dated 1990? Well, those things aren't sold anymore.

Ok now on a more serious level, cheap keyboard trays like the kind you get with your $89 pressboard computer desks don't hold much more than a keyboard and arguably, they don't really hold the keyboard either. I haven't seen any decent keyboard trays in at least a few years that don't factor in the mouse. The lower end ones don't always give you a lot of room for the mouse, but they usually don't forget about it. Some keyboard trays are also designed to have a separate mouse attachment tray that you have to buy separately because some people are more comfortable with their mouse elevated higher than their keyboard.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: hyperlinked on Sun, 22 November 2009, 00:44:44: Vehementi (or whoever's in this photo) may benefit from a keyboard tray if he starts to develop a sore neck.

(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4206/photo1qa.jpg)

His torso is leaning backward, but his mouse hand is reaching forward. They're going opposite directions. People often do this when they're using a mouse that is not at the right height to use comfortably for an extended period of time. Leaning back allows you to shift the angle and height of your shoulder so you can still control the mouse without as much muscular tension in your arm, neck, and shoulder and without as much pressure on your wrist.

Is that bad? It may be. It shifts some of the strain to your low back and to a different part of your neck and shoulder. If this isn't his typical posture at the desk for 8+ hours a day, he'll probably be fine.

On the other hand now that I look at the photo some more, he looks like he's fairly tall and taller than the 5'8" person that most desks are designed for and putting the keyboard on top of the desk would proably place it at the ideal height for him. Most desks are designed to be optimal surfaces for the task of writing, which uses a different posture than keyboarding so the ideal writing height for someone who's 5'8" to 5'10" is around the ideal keyboard height for someone who's 6'2" - 6'4".

If that's the case then, he might be reaching forward because he's slouching and not the other way around like I originally thought.

Anyways... what it all means... it's all relative. There's nothing magical about a keyboard tray, but they tend to be helpful for various reasons. If all you do is keyboard on that desk, the tray is just another surface. If you need to write and keyboard a lot, a tray is usually a good idea.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 22 November 2009, 01:23:16: I don't use a keyboard tray either and I most likely should. My problem is I really like to have a big desk the bigger the better. My last desk upgrade was to a solid mango wood dinning room table it was on sale and I could not pass it up. I mean how often do you run across a table that is 1" solid wood built like a tank and only cost me $250. Of course because it is a dinning table it is taller than it should be so my next purchase will be a much better chair with enough height adjustment to get me to the proper height for typing. As it is now though I don't have a problem but I would still like to move up a inch or so higher. I'm also thinking of flipping it over and cutting the legs down some but not sure I want to because it is a beautiful table and I may want to use it for that at some point.
Title: Keyboard trays
Post by: Vehementi on Sun, 22 November 2009, 06:13:11: My posture isn't generally that bad, though you are correct in that I haven't lowered my desk to the correct height yet. I am just lazy ;)