geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Viett on Sat, 07 November 2009, 23:31:59

Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Viett on Sat, 07 November 2009, 23:31:59: A friend of mine, who can't touch type, and games pretty frequently (dark environments) is looking for a new keyboard. He is fed up with Deck, because several of his boards have had quality issues. Even though Deck has replaced them, he still doesn't want another from them.

Are there other mechanical backlit boards that can be purchased in the US for the same price or lower? In particular, is there a way to get a Scorpius M10 BL?
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 08 November 2009, 04:30:11: Out of curiosity, what were the quality problems?

I'm surprised that Filco haven't made any back lit versions...
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: JaccoW on Sun, 08 November 2009, 09:26:04: I would be interested too, since I am planning on ordering one from the US, but since I don't live in the US it might become very costly to get a replacement.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: majestouch on Sun, 08 November 2009, 12:00:08: I think key character backlighting in a mechanical board is just tough, as it adds considerably to the total cost to put an LED behind each key and to have light transmissive keycap characters. Deck appears to be buoyed by their parent company TG3, which probably allows them a little bit easier entry into such a product category, but those boards still carry a premium.

Not all hope is lost, however, there is another option: blacklighting.

(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/black-light-4.jpg)

Any mechanical board with white characters will probably glow quite nicely under black lighting.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Sun, 08 November 2009, 13:39:12: (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/filco_majestouch_brown_us_small.jpg)

+

(http://designeast.eu/wp-content/2009/01/sophia-lamp-white-at-night_empty_m.jpg)
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 08 November 2009, 14:06:32: My thoughts exactly.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Sun, 08 November 2009, 14:32:39: Deck keyboards are nice but they are limited to black or clear switches. The layout of the Filco is so much nicer. Even though it is cool to have backlighting my keyboard lost the light under the left control (which came back :S) then the right control went followed by two diagonal lines going from 9 to the windows key and 0 to backslash.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Viett on Sun, 08 November 2009, 14:53:08: Yeah, the whole Filco + lamp thing wouldn't work in his situation. He attends LAN Parties, which you can't necessarily bring lamps to, plus he wants the keyboard to look cool ascetically.

He has had several key switches go bad, and on top of that several LEDs cease to light up. Deck has always sent him replacements, but he is still kind of fed up.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Sun, 08 November 2009, 14:58:29: Well there is no other choice. One of the many selling points of Deck are that they are the ONLY manufacturer of backlit mechanical keyboards. Nuff said.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 08 November 2009, 15:01:37: which is kind of ironic since someone else makes the boards for them
but yeah
not many other options
if deck is replacing them, i dont understand the problem... you are saying he has seriously been through ENOUGH free keyboards to just buy ANOTHER? havent heard of this kind of unreliability from deck.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Sun, 08 November 2009, 15:06:03: Well I bought one and had no complaints except that the wire doesn't have a stabiliser (or whatever you call it) it just comes straight out the back.

Also the leds went.. no way they could possibly burn out so it must have been the circuitry.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Sun, 08 November 2009, 15:44:11: For gaming I have never once found myself looking at the keys. The reason I bought a deck was due to it being a quality keyboard that looked cool as ****.

I think however the Filco is has much better layout, style and build quality.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 08 November 2009, 15:51:26: never understood the appeal of the key border (nearly a pun) backlighting
yes it looks cooler, but everyone says it makes it easier to see... but how does it make it EASIER to see NON-ILLUMINATED keys when you now have light coming from BEHIND them? it's like trying to see what kind of car has its headlights in your face... the light is going the WRONG WAY and doing more harm than good in the usability department
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: CX23882 on Sun, 08 November 2009, 16:49:02: Quote from: ripster;131068
You're thinking about this too much. Some people are LED people and some people aren't.

Show Image
(http://www.makototojiki.com/image/dl_sp/l/4.jpg)

Holy enormous image, Batman.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 08 November 2009, 17:48:52: There are aspects of that image potentially more worrying than the size.:scared:
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 08 November 2009, 17:54:07: yeah ill access that image later...

led is cool and all i just hate when people say that one style of lighting has any practical application
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Sun, 08 November 2009, 19:11:02: Quote from: AndrewZorn;131057
never understood the appeal of the key border (nearly a pun) backlighting
yes it looks cooler, but everyone says it makes it easier to see... but how does it make it EASIER to see NON-ILLUMINATED keys when you now have light coming from BEHIND them? it's like trying to see what kind of car has its headlights in your face... the light is going the WRONG WAY and doing more harm than good in the usability department

Totally agree. My Deck worked a charm when I played with the lights off which I did maybe 4 or 5 times in over a year. However most of the time I had the lights on so there was no practical application of the backlighting except for aesthetics. In fact it was annoying because even when I switched my computer off the backlight stayed on making it bright when I was going to sleep.

Ironically I bought a Filco so I didn't have to worry about backlights and them breaking (like on my deck), however the LEDs above numlock capslock and scroll lock are even brighter than all 105 decks keys put together. It's like they accidentally put torch lights in there. It lights up my whole roof in a big blue circle :/
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 09 November 2009, 09:27:43: IMO, if it's too dark to see the legends on the keys, it's too dark period. Just as it bothers me when it's too bright in a room, having the monitor be the only light source in the room is just as straining.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: timw4mail on Mon, 09 November 2009, 09:54:51: Quote from: itlnstln;131216
IMO, if it's too dark to see the legends on the keys, it's too dark period. Just as it bothers me when it's too bright in a room, having the monitor be the only light source in the room is just as straining.

I agree, and only really see backlighting keys as practical for laptops, as they tend to be used in places where you don't have control of lighting.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 09 November 2009, 09:57:05: Quote from: timw4mail;131229
I agree, and only really see backlighting keys as practical for laptops, as they tend to be used in places where you don't have control of lighting.

Agreed. The new Dell laptops we are getting now have backlit keys, and they are pretty nice. It doesn't look obnoxious like some of the gaming 'boards I have seen. It's a nice, soft, white light that almost looks like non-lit white legends.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 09 November 2009, 10:03:27: (http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/5553.jpg)

Boo-yeaah...
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 09 November 2009, 10:09:22: Nice. I like that.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: timw4mail on Mon, 09 November 2009, 10:22:46: Quote from: ripster;131236
That's it! Buy a Brown Cherry Filco and attach a fiber optic light pipe to the ScrollLock Light.

Problem solved.
Show Image
(http://www.columbia.edu/cu/physics/demo-images/6-Optics/6A44-2_1_fiberoptic.jpg)

It is about bright enough, isn't it?
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Viett on Mon, 09 November 2009, 10:38:24: Quote from: timw4mail;131229
I agree, and only really see backlighting keys as practical for laptops, as they tend to be used in places where you don't have control of lighting.

Also useful because most laptops have non-standard layouts, which means function keys and the Ins/Del cluster are scattered all over the place, making them difficult to touch type.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Mon, 09 November 2009, 11:30:23: Quote from: ripster;131236
That's it! Buy a Brown Cherry Filco and attach a fiber optic light pipe to the ScrollLock Light.

Problem solved.
Show Image
(http://www.columbia.edu/cu/physics/demo-images/6-Optics/6A44-2_1_fiberoptic.jpg)

Not a bad Idea, if he got a longer pipe then he could save $$ on his lighting bill next year.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 09 November 2009, 20:15:50: Quote from: ripster;131241
I recommend protective eyewear if you try it.
Show Image
(http://www.lasersolutions.net/products/images/eyewear-4.jpg)

Ze goggles...

... zey did nussing!
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Tue, 10 November 2009, 10:37:22: Ah, grasshopper, you wanted sunglasses.. not safety goggles.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: BucklingSpring on Tue, 10 November 2009, 17:28:44: Quote from: Viett;131045
He has had several key switches go bad, and on top of that several LEDs cease to light up. Deck has always sent him replacements, but he is still kind of fed up.

I'm surprised. I've got two Decks and I'm beating them pretty hard and never got any issues with them.

Is your friend's name Alexander?

Alexander in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTDeQlqSAtU)

Is he feeding them with food and drinks?

Anyway, if he is beating his Decks to death. There is no backlit keyboards out there more durable than the Decks.

Have him try one of those POS Logitech or Saitek, I bet he will return to Decks within a month.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Viett on Tue, 10 November 2009, 17:29:54: Quote from: BucklingSpring;131579
I'm surprised. I've got two Decks and I'm beating them pretty hard and never got any issues with them.

Is your friend's name Alexander?

Alexander in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTDeQlqSAtU)

Nope.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 10 November 2009, 18:42:27: Quote from: ripster;131593
I highly recommend the TG3 MK71A. (http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/kioskkeyboards/mk71a.php)

Show Image
(http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/images/mk71a_1.jpg)

If that wasn't a rubber dome, I would so order one of those. I really want a keyboard with metal keys.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: lmnop on Wed, 11 November 2009, 03:48:41: I have done a lot of research on the Deck Legend and I don't think there is anything wrong with the build quality occasionally on their forum people complain about a switch not working upon arrival or LED flooding but they will replace them.

I only have one knit pick. I don't like the spacebar. the keycap is not constructed out of polyester like the others it's abs. they place a LED on each end of the keycap but when you turn the lights out there isn't much illumination instead I wish they would take a page from Saitek and print a line in the center of the keycap so it illuminates.

Deck Legend 82
(http://a.imagehost.org/0009/deck82_toxic_lightsout2.jpg)

Saitek Eclipse
(http://i.imagehost.org/0749/saitek2.jpg)
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 11 November 2009, 05:25:57: Not sure whether they could pull that off... with these mechanical boards you pretty much need a whole bunch of individual LEDs and cannot really use diffusor sheets like it's possible on a membrane board. IOW even if they had such a longish transparent section in the space bar I doubt it would be very evenly illuminated.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Wed, 11 November 2009, 05:56:04: (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n49/The_Real_Phatboy/deck.jpg)

As you can see in the circle the LEDs aren't working. Must be a lose connection seeing as they all are in the same band of keys :/

Nothing else is really wrong with my Deck, but I would say based on this they do have some quality control issues. Although I could just be unlucky!
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 11 November 2009, 06:09:22: i agree on the spacebar thing i thought it was a bit underwhelming too
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: mike2h on Wed, 11 November 2009, 14:01:05: not sure i get the problem with the spacebar. if you are touch typist it doesnt matter, if your not(like me), you go for the big dark space between the lights, no problems. kinda like it myself.
i can see from an aesthetics pov, & being used to the eclipse(there are some kbs' with serious qa with their key printing proccess) were somebody would like that 'look' better but thats about the only real issue you could have with decks lighting setup.
not sure what to say to the guy with light problem. pretty wierd. i would think they would just habve you send the kb in by now. from forum reports they are really good about that.
bty, no problems here, & my keys have seen some pounding. im still not use to not having to bottom out every stroke & i tend to get overly excited in some games. :)
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 11 November 2009, 14:28:44: well why would said touch typist need glowing letters AT ALL, if we are going to talk about practicality?
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Wed, 11 November 2009, 14:41:06: Quote from: AndrewZorn;131746
well why would said touch typist need glowing letters AT ALL, if we are going to talk about practicality?

Cause it looks ****ing cool alright :D?

I'm probably not going to send my deck back since I only use my Filco now anyway. I can't see myself buying another keyboard unless it's a board with cherry red switches that ships to the UK.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: mike2h on Wed, 11 November 2009, 17:34:17: Quote from: Shuki;131749
Cause it looks ****ing cool alright :D?

I'm probably not going to send my deck back since I only use my Filco now anyway. I can't see myself buying another keyboard unless it's a board with cherry red switches that ships to the UK.

assuming your deck is still under warranty(is it?) why wouldnt you send it in? especially since you are using another kb? the only inconvenience would be shipping. & if they have any pride in their product they might kick for that to seeing all the problems you have had. i have had this happen many times before so it is worthg trying.
imo not sending it in would be silly, that is a substantial investment for a kb.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Wed, 11 November 2009, 17:50:52: It still works fine, just the LEDs are busted. I don't want to return it and I don't want to pay for shipping to have it repaired.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: mike2h on Wed, 11 November 2009, 18:34:28: not wanting to return it is fine. dont really care one way or the other. also get the shipping thing, wich is why i mentioned talking to them to see if they will foot the bill- someting a lot of companies will do if you have the amount of problems you claim with their product- &given the pride they seem to have in their products, it is possible they will & if you have had that many problems they should.
but it is your $200 kb, do with it what you will. or wont.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: lmnop on Wed, 11 November 2009, 19:06:35: you should talk to Adam on the Deck Forums if you have questions.

I hate to sound like your mother but you shouldn't play video games in the dark not that it ever deters us but your pupils enlarge when there is less light causing eye strain. in 1999 my clan was ranked #1 on the STA Gold Ladder and I used a Microsoft Natural Elite Keyboard.

I was happy to see you use a CRT Monitor still I have a Samsung 226BW 22" S Panel and a Dell Ultrascan P992 19" but trying to get my hands on a Sony GDM-FW900 24"
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 11 November 2009, 19:09:17: Quote from: lmnop;131865
you should talk to Adam on the Deck Forums if you have questions.

I hate to sound like your mother but you shouldn't play video games in the dark not that it ever deters us but your pupils enlarge when there is less light causing eye strain. in 1999 my clan was ranked #1 on the STA Gold Ladder and I used a Microsoft Natural Elite Keyboard.

I was happy to see you use a CRT Monitor still I have a Samsung 226BW 22" S Panel and a Dell Ultrascan P992 19" but trying to get my hands on a Sony GDM-FW900 24"

Deck's Forums are closed down. They only exist anymore for archival purposes.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: lmnop on Wed, 11 November 2009, 19:12:18: Quote from: timw4mail;131868
Deck's Forums are closed down. They only exist anymore for archival purposes.

they reopened them.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 11 November 2009, 19:30:05: That's good to hear.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: lmnop on Wed, 11 November 2009, 19:38:29: Deck forums re-opened, no longer be monitored by staff (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=632)

they reopened them Oct 5th.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: mike2h on Wed, 11 November 2009, 22:05:51: ty for that info.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Shuki on Thu, 12 November 2009, 04:06:59: Quote from: lmnop;131865
you should talk to Adam on the Deck Forums if you have questions.

I hate to sound like your mother but you shouldn't play video games in the dark not that it ever deters us but your pupils enlarge when there is less light causing eye strain. in 1999 my clan was ranked #1 on the STA Gold Ladder and I used a Microsoft Natural Elite Keyboard.

I was happy to see you use a CRT Monitor still I have a Samsung 226BW 22" S Panel and a Dell Ultrascan P992 19" but trying to get my hands on a Sony GDM-FW900 24"

Well I'm in uni now so I wouldn't be able to send my Deck because I don't have it with me.

I never play games in the dark either, it's not really an option now seeing as I use a Filco keyboard which doesn't have backlights (unless I turn scroll lock, caps lock and num lock on at the same time and immerse the entire room in an eerie blue glow).

Also my CRT is back at home as well so I am getting buy using a laptop connected to my Asus VW222U. Although I'm not gaming that much anymore so it's not real a huge issue.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Megaweapon on Sun, 15 November 2009, 13:22:44: Quote from: lmnop;131865
I hate to sound like your mother but you shouldn't play video games in the dark not that it ever deters us but your pupils enlarge when there is less light causing eye strain.

I'm pretty sure this is a myth.

Quote
trying to get my hands on a Sony GDM-FW900 24"

I've got one. It's nice, but I think it has gotten more blurry in just the 16 or so months I've owned it. The past several months I've found myself shifting most desktop tasks over to my secondary monitor (ThinkVision L220x). I still game on the FW900, though.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Arc'xer on Sun, 15 November 2009, 14:13:11: Quote from: Megaweapon;132689
I've got one. It's nice, but I think it has gotten more blurry in just the 16 or so months I've owned it. The past several months I've found myself shifting most desktop tasks over to my secondary monitor (ThinkVision L220x). I still game on the FW900, though.

At least there's the 120Hz LCDs out now and a few more coming in. Currently Samsung 2233rz, Viewsonic VX2665/68 coming soon is the Asus and Acer ones.

It doesn't go as high refresh rate as the FW900 and it still an LCD with higher response time but at least the reviews on them that I seen are quite comparable to CRTs, only negative I seen is the wobbly stands.

Unfortunately it's a bit expensive for me, don't have that kind of money to spend on a new LCD.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 15 November 2009, 14:24:15: 120hz is the new *HDTV*, in that by the time the rest of the world catches up and it is truly utilized, it will be a fraction of the price
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 15 November 2009, 22:36:29: I'm still trying to work out the point of 200Hz LCD TVs, because LCDs don't flicker.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 16 November 2009, 03:49:07: Quote from: Rajagra;132779
I'm still trying to work out the point of 200Hz LCD TVs, because LCDs don't flicker.

It's not flicker, it's the repainting of the image faster. Smoother motion.

If superman flies across the screen in 200 frames instead of 60, then he's got a smoother transition between each still image.
Title: Alternative to Deck?
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 16 November 2009, 16:01:58: Quote from: ricercar;132807
It's not flicker, it's the repainting of the image faster. Smoother motion.

If superman flies across the screen in 200 frames instead of 60, then he's got a smoother transition between each still image.

But the way persistence of vision works, you detect brightness quickly, but our eyes' sensors can't register things going dark quickly. (Think camera flashes - they can be well under 1/1000 of a second. You sense them easily, but have no idea how long they lasted.) It's to do with the bleaching effect.

This means, for example, you could just paint superman on each of those 60 frames 3-ish times and our eyes would see the same thing as if you showed 180 frames in the same timespan.

(A football travelling across a pitch is a better example as it's white moving over relatively dark green.)

Besides, Superman has slowed down a lot since he hit the bottle.
(http://www.g-ray.co.uk/pictures/1238408638_superman_drinking_.gif)