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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: Bol0Aa on Wed, 04 November 2015, 09:45:03
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Standard Japanese keyboards use a physical layout (called "JIS layout" in reference to the respective standards organization) that has additional keys in the lower row and a smaller space bar (to make room for the additional keys) plus a single unit backspace and ISO-style enter; they are about as expensive as common simple western layouts.
Has somebody purchased a Japanese keyboard and remapped the additional keys to a good use (for non Japanese speakers)?.
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One of my dream designs is a 60%'er with a small space bar (possibly even split) and then a thumb FN key on each side of it. When looking into this the closest thing I found to reference was the JIS layout. One day I will make a custom plate and build this guy.
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I would most likely switch to JIS layout if the Lshift was 1.25u like on ISO
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I would most likely switch to JIS layout if the Lshift was 1.25u like on ISO
Ewwwww
<3
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I have the HHKB JP version. This is the layout: http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html
I got it mainly because of the dedicated arrow keys. The thumb keys are nicely accessible but already have clear functions which are not relevant for typing in English. So you wind up installing HASU's board and then it gets complicated because you've swapped to the Japanese layout on your keyboard preferences which I've found to be quite buggy on windows. So then you build a custom map...and then your keys have the wrong legends so you'll get some blank keys...and then you realise the profiles won't work with the weird layout...and then you wish you never bothered :d
I guess the answer to your question is yes, but it's a pain in the backside because there is a domino effect to making the thumb keys useful.
I'd rather just have a regular HHKB :))
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I have the HHKB JP version. This is the layout: http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html
I got it mainly because of the dedicated arrow keys. The thumb keys are nicely accessible but already have clear functions which are not relevant for typing in English. So you wind up installing HASU's board and then it gets complicated because you've swapped to the Japanese layout on your keyboard preferences which I've found to be quite buggy on windows. So then you build a custom map...and then your keys have the wrong legends so you'll get some blank keys...and then you realise the profiles won't work with the weird layout...and then you wish you never bothered :d
I guess the answer to your question is yes, but it's a pain in the backside because there is a domino effect to making the thumb keys useful.
I'd rather just have a regular HHKB :))
Thanks for answering.
Based on what you say, the real problem you have is Windows; the keyboard itself seems to be working fine for you. In GNU/Linux you can easily remap keys with xmodmap and similar; that's all you had to do (no domino effect). Windows not only generates problems, it is, itself, a problem. You are forced to do what Microsoft wants for you, according to its own interests. Do not think that OS X is any different; it's just having a different master. In GNU/Linux you can use, modify, and configure software freely on your own, always (as long as you use free software only); its licenses allow this; that is why it is called free (as in freedom) software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software).
The labels in the keys do not matter; for example, you can configure your computer so that you write in Colemak despite that your keyboard is labeled in QWERTY. There is no reason to "fix" them, since they are not broken in the first place; they are just a decorative. You are supposed to type without needing or using the labels on the keys; that is what the bumps on the index finger home keys are for (F and J in a QWERTY layout).
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One of my dream designs is a 60%'er with a small space bar (possibly even split) and then a thumb FN key on each side of it. When looking into this the closest thing I found to reference was the JIS layout. One day I will make a custom plate and build this guy.
Like... this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73527.0)? ;)
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I have the HHKB JP version. This is the layout: http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html
I got it mainly because of the dedicated arrow keys. The thumb keys are nicely accessible but already have clear functions which are not relevant for typing in English. So you wind up installing HASU's board and then it gets complicated because you've swapped to the Japanese layout on your keyboard preferences which I've found to be quite buggy on windows. So then you build a custom map...and then your keys have the wrong legends so you'll get some blank keys...and then you realise the profiles won't work with the weird layout...and then you wish you never bothered :d
I guess the answer to your question is yes, but it's a pain in the backside because there is a domino effect to making the thumb keys useful.
I'd rather just have a regular HHKB :))
Thanks for answering.
Based on what you say, the real problem you have is Windows; the keyboard itself seems to be working fine for you. In GNU/Linux you can easily remap keys with xmodmap and similar; that's all you had to do (no domino effect). Windows not only generates problems, it is, itself, a problem. You are forced to do what Microsoft wants for you, according to its own interests. Do not think that OS X is any different; it's just having a different master. In GNU/Linux you can use, modify, and configure software freely on your own, always (as long as you use free software only); its licenses allow this; that is why it is called free (as in freedom) software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software).
The labels in the keys do not matter; for example, you can configure your computer so that you write in Colemak despite that your keyboard is labeled in QWERTY. There is no reason to "fix" them, since they are not broken in the first place; they are just a decorative. You are supposed to type without needing or using the labels on the keys; that is what the bumps on the index finger home keys are for (F and J in a QWERTY layout).
I'll be happy to if you pay for a shrink to fix my ocd.
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One of my dream designs is a 60%'er with a small space bar (possibly even split) and then a thumb FN key on each side of it. When looking into this the closest thing I found to reference was the JIS layout. One day I will make a custom plate and build this guy.
Like... this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73527.0)? ;)
Sort of. But more american based lol
Like this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=~%0A%60&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_w:1.75%3B&=Caps%20Lock&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=FN&_a:7&w:3.75%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=FN&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl)
The big issue with that one is finding a 3.75u spacebar, but it gets the point across.
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I couldn't get used to JIS layout. I think split spacebar with one of them as a modifier, like Fn, is a better idea if you want more usability.
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I used to use a cheap Japanese keyboard I had bought. It was nice (no more pinky modifiers), and I had no trouble adjusting to it, but unfortunately I use a laptop all of the time and don't have room to carry around a keyboard. If you don't want to buy a more expensive ergonomic keyboard with thumbkeys, I'd recommend it though.
Thanks for answering.
Based on what you say, the real problem you have is Windows; the keyboard itself seems to be working fine for you. In GNU/Linux you can easily remap keys with xmodmap and similar; that's all you had to do (no domino effect). Windows not only generates problems, it is, itself, a problem. You are forced to do what Microsoft wants for you, according to its own interests. Do not think that OS X is any different; it's just having a different master. In GNU/Linux you can use, modify, and configure software freely on your own, always (as long as you use free software only); its licenses allow this; that is why it is called free (as in freedom) software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software).
xmodmap is not that great. It's easy to use, but it's very limited and buggy. Also, I'd guess that just using AHK (instead of using the Windows Japanese keyboard layout setting) would work fine because I don't remember having any problems with at (though I haven't tried it since Windows 7).
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I am Japanese and have used the JIS layout quite often but always see myself reverting back to US layout. Having such a tiny del/backspace was my biggest issue with the layout. I would always fat finger the above keys. Maybe I should make fewer typos lol XD
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I use JIS too, only on a regular unmodded board (Topre). The tiny backspace and rshift are a pain. Using the keys around the spacebar for other things would be cool, but not enough to offset the other issues.
shibataken - do you ever miss those henkan keys when you are using ANSI layout? I never use them, but since I'm not Japanese, I figured I was just using them wrong. :)
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I use JIS too, only on a regular unmodded board (Topre). The tiny backspace and rshift are a pain. Using the keys around the spacebar for other things would be cool, but not enough to offset the other issues.
shibataken - do you ever miss those henkan keys when you are using ANSI layout? I never use them, but since I'm not Japanese, I figured I was just using them wrong. :)
Yea I do miss them :D but as long as you remember the few key short cuts "ALT + ~", "ALT + `", "CTRL + caps", "ALT+caps" you can switch between all the layouts (easier/faster than having the Microsoft toolbar). I would still take not having henkan over tiny shifts and backspace keys hehe.
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Take a look at the keyboards on this site: http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/ (http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/). They have more thumb keys and are fully programmable as well.