Post by: Oobly on Thu, 12 November 2015, 05:29:57
I own a number of sets like this, where the designer has specified that the design will not be run again (or at least in the same profile) and a number of sets that have had "extras" made or had a 2nd run. Examples are Penumbra, PuLSE, Retro SA for "limited" sets and Black on Black PBT and Jukebox for extras/rerun sets.
On the one hand, being limited generally creates a higher perceived value for the set. It's limited therefore it's rare and therefore valuable. Like any product that has a special, limited edition run. On the other hand, it could be perceived as being "artificially" rare, since there's nothing standing in the way of making more. However, again the same applies to any limited edition product and on top of that, most first runs of a set are "open" in terms of numbers of orders, so the number actually manufactured depends on how many are ordered. If you want one and order within the time window, you get one. They're not really "limited" in that sense.
Also, often the first run includes extra costs such as legend cutting / font creation, etc, which the subsequent runs don't have, so the cost usually is lower second time round. As a purchaser of the first run, is it irritating that people who didn't participate in the IC, didn't have to wait for the GB, didn't have to go through the frustration and hassle of incorrect legends / wrong caps, production delays, etc. get to have the same set as you for less than you paid?
For more popular designs, like Penumbra, the "limited" status can be frustrating for those who really want the set and missed the run, although if there were enough initial orders, they will pop up every now and then in classifieds or the mechmarket.
In order to retain the "special" value, but still have the basic design available to everyone, what do you think of the idea of a "first run only" novelties / specialties kit that only gets produced for the first run, but the base and all other kits get included in extras / subsequent runs. Would that satisfy you if you were to put yourself in the shoes of both groups of people, those who get the first run and those who want it afterwards? Only those who participate in the first run get the special caps, but those who come after can still get the main set and support kits.
Thoughts?
-Oobly
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Thu, 12 November 2015, 06:17:35
Quote
In order to retain the "special" value, but still have the basic design available to everyone, what do you think of the idea of a "first run only" novelties / specialties kit that only gets produced for the first run, but the base and all other kits get included in extras / subsequent runs.
I really like this idea and think it would be a good compromise for enthusiasts, collectors and creators. A good example would be skull squadron, a fairly simple colorway which isn't approached much. I love the set, I'd really love another run, but I really don't care about the macrosse connection or the novelties. A novelty-less repress would be perfect in my eyes.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 12 November 2015, 06:20:04
If SP wants to remake some sets that have been popular I don't see why they can't connect with those who ran it before and work something out that would benefit them both.
To me it gets a little murky though when thinking about sets showing up for sale in classifieds in the future as people may get confused as to what they have or what they're buying when you have multiple variations on a set.
Post by: bubbedi on Thu, 12 November 2015, 06:38:31
(off topic i guess)
Personally, I do not get why people are that frustrated about a set not being reproduced, since so many new (and really awesome) sets are happening all the time. And don't get me wrong, ever since i laid eyes on Penumbra i was ready to kill/rape even the youngest of our civilization - just to own it. This was a joke, of course.
I believe I was one of those who even contributed to the Penumbra thread with nothing but a request for another round.
BUT SUDDENLY, i have SA (TRUE!) Retro, and found myself in the group of those lucky few who participated and scored. And now look what happens. people already asks for round 2 retro, this time, to my amusement!
Post by: keshley on Thu, 12 November 2015, 07:34:02
Maybe my opinion is a little skewed since, thanks to Mr SpAmRaY, I already have (a plethora of) my favorite keycap set. And there's always great keysets coming out.
If there's a particular set someone is looking for, it'll eventually show up in the classifieds. A little patience never hurt anyone. I'm still waiting on a few things to show up in the classifieds, as a lot of stuff, not just keycaps, aren't made anymore. Which means when they finally do pop up, there'll be a level of excitement that just wouldn't be there if I could just go to Amazon and pick it up whenever I wanted.
I'd say the only thing I don't like about limited run sets is how high the resale value can be for some of them. For some of those sets, its a seller's market, and I've seen lots of sales that I would never consider, no matter how rare that set is.
The more I think about it, the more its kind of like the Artisan market. I think if we look at all the opinions about Artisan keycaps, they can all be applied to limited run keysets. Not to the same extreme; the markups on Clacks, for example, is way higher than a markup on a limited run keyset will ever be. However, while the reasons may be different (only so many Artisan caps can be made, vs choosing to run a keyset once), the principals are the same; the number of interested parties exceeds the number of available items.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 12 November 2015, 07:43:29
Post by: ConscienceDrop on Thu, 12 November 2015, 07:53:02
The size of a run is part of the aesthetic of a set.
Post by: Lepidus on Thu, 12 November 2015, 07:53:49
The good part it that it opens space for new sets. I mean, if you browse IC forum righ now there are tons of great projects, but all of them reporting more or less the same issue: Every cap manufacturer avalible is flooded with requests.
As much as I like many sets out there, I would rather get new designed ones.
Post by: raymogi on Thu, 12 November 2015, 07:57:51
Imagine if stuff like Penumbra keeps getting rereleased. Will completely get rid of the thrill of the hunt.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 12 November 2015, 07:59:47
Post by: Lepidus on Thu, 12 November 2015, 08:04:37
Another thought, if people assume something will be reproduced later it can be hard to reach initial MOQ.
This.
Specially with SP selling reruns way cheaper than original set.
Post by: baldgye on Thu, 12 November 2015, 08:18:59
I don't think limited run sets are a bad thing per-say, but I think popular sets that sell for 3-4x the original price should be re-run as clearly the community wants more of those sets and GB's are in there very nature community funded projects.
IMO sets like Penumbria(?) and that other one 'designed' by that Brazillian chap that go for $300-400 is wrong and the only people your screwing are the same people you want to then fund your next 'design'...
I like how Miami was done, one run a year with improvements... idk if it will be done again next year, but if it was highly demanded like other more popular sets, I don't see why it shouldn't be.
Post by: MeltingTeeth on Thu, 12 November 2015, 09:07:52
The designers with the biggest egos have the smallest runs.
Post by: malaik0 on Thu, 12 November 2015, 09:49:32
if you like you like endpoint :thumb:
favoring who helped the GB yes yes yes, you are absolutely right, design rights? lol rights of colour scheme? really? ok next... i know that its ward and they lost a lot of time but its only colour scheme :/
Post by: aznairjordan on Thu, 12 November 2015, 10:18:15
I believe that if you really wanted a set, you would get the chance to obtain it either by paying a lot of money or by patiently waiting. Pulse was my dream set but I was too late getting into the world of keyboards. I spent months looking at the photos of other people's boards, refreshing classifieds and mechmarket every 5 minutes and finally found a set here on gh, which I promptly got rid of as I didn't feel as magical when it was actually sitting on my desk. I am never doing all that again for a set but it worked. In my opinion, Most of the people I see asking for reruns got in to keyboards too late but aren't putting in the effort to try and get what they want.
I'm not going to argue about who has rights to the colors or the design itself because I have no knowledge about that kind of stuff.
Post by: Infrared on Thu, 12 November 2015, 10:33:06
Post by: Waateva on Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:21:42
The limited edition is at the discretion of the designer and/or the manufacturer in some cases. If a person wants to keep a particular design limited when he owns and have rights over the intellectual property, consumers do not have to do anything in that decision. Besides, the few limited edition buys I got in, were sold at regular prices in their time, so I do not see any reason to try to make rules over the people that get involve in key sets designs, we should honor they willingness to proceed as they want. If the community support artisans on how they want to produce and market their designs that are normally more expensive, we should treat the same a set designer that wants to make his design special, preventing future production runs.
I agree completely, it doesn't seem right to hold set designers and artisan designers to a different standard. That said, I like the idea of offering something special in the first run to encourage people to meet the initial MOQ, which would also take care of the issue of a lack of interest in the initial MOQ if it could be redone at a later date. This allows the people who get into the first, and maybe only, run of the set to have something "special" to differentiate from later runs, if the designer decides to do one.
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:30:51
I like the idea. Having something special could satisfy the round one buyers, sort of a reward to those who chip in that extra dough and show support.
(off topic i guess)
Personally, I do not get why people are that frustrated about a set not being reproduced, since so many new (and really awesome) sets are happening all the time. And don't get me wrong, ever since i laid eyes on Penumbra i was ready to kill/rape even the youngest of our civilization - just to own it. This was a joke, of course.
I believe I was one of those who even contributed to the Penumbra thread with nothing but a request for another round.
BUT SUDDENLY, i have SA (TRUE!) Retro, and found myself in the group of those lucky few who participated and scored. And now look what happens. people already asks for round 2 retro, this time, to my amusement!
For me its about color scheme and fit with my room/desk. Almost all of the recently run group buys would clash with the color pallet of my room. Also if you have a bunch of artisans/novelties that fit with a certain set it can also be frustrating.
Post by: zslane on Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:46:30
I am not a collector. I don't like the idea of creating a collector-oriented artificial rarity for things which have a high degree of practical functionality (i.e., it doesn't just hang on a wall and appreciate in value). I really couldn't care less how valuable a "limited edition" set is to the collector market; if I like a set and want to be typing on a keyboard with it, then I'm going to want to buy it.
Thanks to the GB system being what it is, I missed out on many nice sets because I wasn't even aware of all this prior to July. Designers that say "never again" really turn me off, no matter how talented they are. They certainly have the right to do that, but they don't have to do that, and I'm not a fan of those who do.
Take, for example, the two DSA sets I have. Obtaining Granite was an intensely irritating process that required piecing together what I needed from at least four individuals from all over Europe and the US. Obtaining my Dolch DSA sets, on the other hand, couldn't have been easier: I went to the PMK webstore and just ordered them. A few days later I had Dolch on my boards. That's how it should be. Of course, I am aware that Dolch was only available because a GB went sour and SP was stuck with inventory. In a sense I got lucky, but I shouldn't have had to be "lucky" with my timing just to get a keycap set.
Philosophically I am opposed to sets that are made limited edition just for the sake of making buyers feel "special". On a purely practical level, I don't care if artisans and novelty keys are made limited-run because I have zero interest in those. But I would appreciate at least base kits and numpad kits being made widely available, with multiple runs as necessary, as a general rule.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:50:10
I don't know if community consensus is possible on this subject.
I am not a collector. I don't like the idea of creating a collector-oriented artificial rarity for things which have a high degree of practical functionality (i.e., it doesn't just hang on a wall and appreciate in value). I really couldn't care less how valuable a "limited edition" set is to the collector market; if I like a set and want to be typing on a keyboard with it, then I'm going to want to buy it.
Thanks to the GB system being what it is, I missed out on many nice sets because I wasn't even aware of all this prior to July. Designers that say "never again" really turn me off, no matter how talented they are. They certainly have the right to do that, but they don't have to do that, and I'm not a fan of those who do.
Take, for example, the two DSA sets I have. Obtaining Granite was an intensely irritating process that required piecing together what I needed from at least four individuals from all over Europe and the US. Obtaining my Dolch DSA sets, on the other hand, couldn't have been easier: I went to the PMK webstore and just ordered them. A few days later I had Dolch on my boards. That's how it should be. Of course, I am aware that Dolch was only available because a GB went sour and SP was stuck with inventory. In a sense I got lucky, but I shouldn't have had to be "lucky" with my timing just to get a keycap set.
Philosophically I am opposed to sets that are made limited edition just for the sake of making buyers feel "special". On a purely practical level, I don't care if artisans and novelty keys are made limited-run because I have zero interest in those. But I would appreciate at least base kits and numpad kits being made widely available, with multiple runs as necessary, as a general rule.
I agree in general with what you have written; however, you agree with artisans making their stuff special, but you do not want a set designer keep his work being limited? That does not make sense.
Post by: Waateva on Thu, 12 November 2015, 13:17:45
Philosophically I am opposed to sets that are made limited edition just for the sake of making buyers feel "special". On a purely practical level, I don't care if artisans and novelty keys are made limited-run because I have zero interest in those. But I would appreciate at least base kits and numpad kits being made widely available, with multiple runs as necessary, as a general rule.
So, if someone cares little for keysets but cares greatly for artisans, would you support them holding an opinion contrary to yours? I don't see how you can support limited-run artisans but not limited-run keysets, based solely on personal preference of artisans or keysets.
Post by: zslane on Thu, 12 November 2015, 13:19:21
Post by: Waateva on Thu, 12 November 2015, 13:35:49
I don't like sets being limited run as a general principle. However, if forced to compromise on the matter, I would willingly relinquish artisans and novelties to the collectors because I don't really care about that sub-category of caps.
Okay, that makes a little more sense.
Post by: zslane on Thu, 12 November 2015, 14:04:45
My feelings are basically the same for novelty keycaps, but since novelties are usually part of a larger keyset, I would prefer to see keysets with novelties put base kits and such into a pool of wider availability while putting the novelty keycaps into their own kits with their own supply dynamics. I think it would simply be a matter of the GB organizer ordering, say, only 25 novelty kits while ordering however many hundreds of the regular kits satisfy general demand.
I believe Oobly mentioned just such an approach.
Post by: neverused on Thu, 12 November 2015, 14:17:49
If I want to commission a company to produce Skull Squadron again, what is to prevent me from doing so? (I won't, also not calling out matt3o, it is just the most recent reference that I saw in the thread) It is not an exclusive colorway and if anyone that feels that mixing a color pallet allows them to dictate the use of that some combination is a fool. The exception to this would be symbols, these could be trademarks/copywritten, etc. However, beyond that, it is an extremely egotistic thing to simply mix colors and allow the community to fund production, but insist on control of the design. I'm saying anyone in particular has done this, but it is foolish to expect exclusivity. If someone doesn't like the use of their color mixture, then they can either produce the product themselves and market them, or not design anything for the public. Or find some way to control the color mix as intellectual property.
Post by: demik on Thu, 12 November 2015, 14:37:10
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 12 November 2015, 14:54:21
I would like to add in my opinion about set designs vs colour schemes, though: A set design is not just a colour scheme. A set design includes the keycap profile, the font choice, the material, the finish, custom legends and novelties, etc.
Perhaps I should put it another way. A colour scheme by definition cannot include things such as font choice, keycap profile, material or finish, legend designs, kit layout choices, etc. Those are what make it a "design". In fact, even the placements and orders of the colours on specific caps go beyond what a colour scheme is and puts it into design territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_scheme
A good designer involves the community and a good design takes hard work and dedication. I'm not saying all the designs out there are good, or that there aren't some that are essentially just a colour scheme, but the most desired ones are usually much more than that, IMHO. They're a cohesive "whole" that would not be the same (or as desirable) with any component altered, and if a designer designs a truly desirable set, he's done something more than throwing a few colours at a keyboard mockup.
I'm very interested in your opinion on this, too, since I think this is a key point that helps determine how much you value a particular set and why. Every set I've chosen to buy / participate in the GB is worth more to me than what I paid. There's an emotional and sentimental value on top, particularly if I had some involvement in the IC thread or one of my ideas or suggestions made it into the final design somehow.
I do think a number of designers would feel their "baby" is somehow cheapened if just the base sets without ANY novelties is sold and that what's then being sold is not really their design, then it really does become almost "just a colour scheme". Also, IMHO, most people who order / buy a set don't just want a nice set of colours, but have some interest in the set inspiration and the designer's interpretation of it, too.
I guess some people really do just buy sets for the colours, but I think most custom / group buy sets are too expensive to be just that and there needs to be some added value of some sort to justify it.
There's nothing to stop someone ordering a set from WASD for example in whatever colours they like at a much lower price and most designers won't mind if they order one in the colours of one of their designs.
To put it another way: What do you think gives your favourite set the value it has to you?
Post by: zslane on Thu, 12 November 2015, 15:42:20
Of all the elements that go into a keyset, the only element I consider driven by anything resembling "artistic creativity" are custom legends. Sure, good color selection is an element of good design, but hardly something that requires hard work or "dedication". And when it comes to font choices, well, if we're talking about double-shot caps from SP, you don't really have much artistic leeway there. Profiles are a cross between ergonomics and personal preference; it doesn't take a design expert to realize that there are only two or three decent SA row profiles to select from (and with DSA there is no profile consideration). And kit composition is merely an exercise in logistics thanks to issues of MOQ.
However, coming up with themed novelties is an art. They are special. I would never dispute that. However, I don't feel that simply mimicing some old vintage keyboard's "RUB OUT" legend constitutes an artistically creative novelty. 7bit has gone to a lot of trouble to recreate the Space Cadet legends, and I am eternally grateful to him for it, but all he did was copy someone else's "design" (Tom Knight's to be specific), so maybe Mr. Knight ought to be in control over the availability of HONEYB/TKLBASE/CADET and not 7bit.
I have poured a lot of $$$ into Round 5a. I love the Honeywell colorway and have little use for any "special" keycaps from that GB. I love the Space Cadet design and it will have pride of place on my desktop someday, but I would never want to see it fall into "limited run" status. I would want the whole world to have Space Cadet if they wanted it. What sort of asshat would I be if I endorsed a plan to withhold it from the general public just so I could feel like I belonged to some exclusive ownership club?
I think Granite is the only keycap set I have in which the extra work that went into its unique legends makes it a true work of art. I speak, of course, of the icon mods. The choice of colors and the choice of Gotham Rounded Book were good choices, but not the most important to making that set anything "special", at least not in my eyes. In that sense it's just a grey-on-grey colorway with a readable typeface, and nothing more. I know Muirium would be howling in protest over such an assessment because he is obsessed with typefaces, but to the average keycap enthusiast Granite's typeface is nice and readable but hardly worth all the debate that went into its selection. It is the icon mods that truly set Granite apart.
But I don't need or want every keycap set I buy to be like Granite. I'm glad there is Honeywell, where it is all about vintage-inspired, elegant simplicity. And quite frankly, anyone could have come up with HONEY. That wasn't hard work, it was merely time-consuming. And mostly because 7bit likes to make sure everyone gets their pet caps and so the kits just keep growing and growing. This notion that keyset design is like painting the Cistine Chapel is rather pushing it.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 13 November 2015, 02:11:44
Let's take another interesting example: GMK Dolch. Dolch is a colourway, like a color scheme, but with a bit more organisation. Ivan's GMK Dolch is a recognisable "design", though, since it has certain features that set it apart from every other Dolch set like DSA Dolch (such as the colour pack and choice of legends or text on the mods, not to mention the profile and font differences), despite the fact that it has no actual custom legends. I'm not comparing Ivan to Michelangelo, though.
On the other hand, his current IC for Jelly POM sets is really just an IC for something the manufacturer will provide, most likely without even a particular colour choice, just blank white POM caps. There's really no design there at all and he's just providing the service of organising the GB so we can get them at a good price.
7bit's Round 5 is somewhere in between.
However.... Even Round 5 is a "limited" run, as are all of 7bit's GBs. I can't order Round 4 Sphericals any more, can I? From the Round 5 page on DT wiki: "Whenever SP starts production (early March), there will be a limited number of kits available, until they are sold out! "
In one sense, all GB sets are limited editions as they always get made in batches. A set can be run a number of times, but of course the demand will reduce with every run since most will have got in on the first run (unless it was poorly marketed, but proved VERY popular).
My personal experience about sets I participated in the IC's on and had a second run lead me to the conclusion that I prefer sets to have just one run. Ivan's black on black started off as an IC for blank black PBT which is when I joined in. Dyesub options were added. Then there was some back and forth choosing the colours to use so the dyesub legends would be visible, but the base plastic still dark enough to be called black. When it looked like we might not meet MOQ, I ponied up and ordered 4 sets. Then there were problems with the first batches of plastic, then problems with the production schedule, but eventually we got our caps made and delivered. Yay! :thumb:
Then Ivan did a second run of them. I felt a bit cheated, to be honest. I invested time, stress, suggestions, feedback, ordered more than I needed to help get them done, waited a year to receive them and then... you could order exactly the same thing at a cheaper price for round 2 and get it sooner. Not only did the financial value of the sets I bought drop way below what I paid, but the emotional and sentimental value attached lessened considerably. Doesn't change the fact that they're great caps and I'm happy more people have the opportunity to buy them, but it still felt.... wrong, somehow. And I doubt there's going to be enough interest for a 3rd run to meet MOQ. Demand for that set is not high any more, as supply has outstripped it.
Somehow I'm okay with Jukebox for now. Probably because the overproduction that's now available on PMK is part of the same initial run? More likely that I feel it didn't get as many orders as it deserved, so the new sets are going to "late original buyers" or something like that.
You can't begrudge someone feeling a set is more valuable if they have invested in it emotionally. I have yet to sell any of my sets, though, only traded ones that had less total perceived value to me for ones with more. This is a personal thing and both parties feel they're doing the same thing, trading something they want less for something they want more. The value of a set is not just financial.
Having just one run and making sure people know it will only be a single run does a few things:
1. Increases demand which helps meet MOQ's since people know they won't have another opportunity to get the set.
2. Ensures that the majority who want the set get it due to the way GB's work.
3. Helps maintain the perceived value of the sets that are produced, which is important to some who participated and is a bit like "giving back" to them by the designer, thanking them for their support of his design.
Please note I'm not talking about the financial value here, just personal "perceived value". IMO, having limited edition sets creates real personal value for the buyers, not just the "collectors", but all buyers. It's nice to be typing on a "limited edition" set, it's just that little bit more special somehow. In the case if keycap sets, it's not really "exclusivity" (since anyone could have ordered their own set at GB time), but rather a marker of a particular moment in a community. If you missed that moment, it's okay to feel a bit left out, but don't worry. New set designs are coming along all the time and it won't take long to find a set that really "resonates" with you.
TLDR: Community designed keycap sets are special. Single run sets retain that "specialness" more than "mass market" or rerun ones and mark a particular time in the community. This is not traditional "exclusivity", but rather time-based "inclusivity" if that makes sense. Community designed sets are not, and should not be mass-produced and mass-market products, IMO.
Post by: swimmingbird on Fri, 13 November 2015, 02:49:02
Dolch is obviously kind of like public domain at this point so I would expect it to be run fairly often or available through retail but something like Hyperfuse or Hack'd by Geeks I think should probably stay one offs
Post by: Floody on Fri, 13 November 2015, 03:12:50
It sucks not being able to get a product because you weren't in the scene when it was released but usually if you stick around long enough you too can get something worthwhile and trade for what you've always wanted.
Post by: Pwner on Fri, 13 November 2015, 03:39:30
I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.
I agree.
The only thing that kind of bothers me is the sets that were limited and end up selling for insanely high prices in the classifieds. Mainly because of how late I joined the r/mk and GH communities so I've missed out on some amazing sets that I'll probably never own. :))
Post by: ideus on Fri, 13 November 2015, 08:15:51
I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.
I agree.
The only thing that kind of bothers me is the sets that were limited and end up selling for insanely high prices in the classifieds. Mainly because of how late I joined the r/mk and GH communities so I've missed out on some amazing sets that I'll probably never own. :))
Worry not, more sets are coming. You joined in a very good time, a couple of years ago, GMK was even not considered for GB runs until Ivan got them to reduce the MoQ and suddently GMK made sets turned into an option, so you are here in a golden age, so just be patient.
Post by: MeltingTeeth on Fri, 13 November 2015, 08:58:41
I think that it should be left in the hands of the designer of the keyset.
I agree.
The only thing that kind of bothers me is the sets that were limited and end up selling for insanely high prices in the classifieds. Mainly because of how late I joined the r/mk and GH communities so I've missed out on some amazing sets that I'll probably never own. :))
Remember, it could always be worse. Think of us Topre lovers!
Post by: GenKaan on Fri, 13 November 2015, 09:40:51
Really dont see a downside to making limited runs. Almost everything today is mass produced and trying to be as "vanilla" as possible. That said there is nothing wrong with "vanilla" but big companies already cover that segment. Like a OEM profile white caps with black font or vice versa, that will forever be the main choice for the majority. Having something like one of my favorite sets (Deep Space) limited makes me feel like my Ducky Shine 3 (mass produced) is special, something not a lot of people have.
I doubt there will come a set I like more than that, unless someone makes a PBT SA profile Deep Space set. Something I highly doubt but is possible.
Ultimately I agree with the majority in this thread that its up to the designer, but I think it should be made clear if its going to be reproduced and sold.
Post by: Dee1 on Fri, 13 November 2015, 09:44:18
Anyway, I'm sorry if that rubs anyone the wrong way but that's how I really feel about it.
I think the idea of keeping novelty sets or extras and such limited to a first run make sense since more work goes into those (new molds and icon designs, etc) and especially since it requires a leap of faith to go into a new group buy. I think that the people in the first-run group should definitely be rewarded for believing in the GB and making the set exist at all, and making these extras limited to them is a good way to do it.
There's also the fact that meeting or not meeting MOQ is what makes or breaks a set; those extras help us meet it because some people will buy the set just to get the extras. However after that initial run has been established and the set has proven to be a success, then limiting production for the tenkey+numpad keys or disallowing others to use the color scheme is something I see little reason for.
Well, anyway, set designers will keep doing what they want, and I will still keep participating in their (limited run) group buys if I like the set.
Post by: ideus on Fri, 13 November 2015, 11:29:03
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 13 November 2015, 13:04:52
Novelties, though, are dependent on what the novelty key is. I would think certain sets that replicate older keyboards and typewriters with their text-based novelties make sense to re-run. Outside that, the caps may well fall under protection and the designer can chose what to do with those.
There are caveats to using novelties though. If the novelties are double shot, you would likely need permission to use the existing molds. Otherwise you're going to have to have new ones cut. It might not be an issue as it could open up existing sets to new novelty interpretations which might be fascinating in and of itself.
A subsequent run done on a popular set minus protected novelties should suffice for anyone that wants the set but missed out. It's definitely a reasonable compromise.
Post by: zslane on Fri, 13 November 2015, 14:01:23
I'm a user, not a collector, and my feelings on the matter are entirely driven by that distinction.
I've been in this position before, in other spheres of interest, where I wanted something purely for its utility (and quality), not for its collectibility, but was subject to the availability and market forces created by its collectible status. For something that is intrinsically functional in nature, this is supremely frustrating. Especially when we're talking about something that is easily produced by machines and not subject to source material limitations or the manufacturing constraints of being hand-made. Collectors may want to artificially restrict production and trade to stroke their emotional attachment to things, but that just strikes me as selfish.
Keycap sets aren't really "limited run" just because they are driven by diminishing demand over time. In reality, they are simply make-on-demand products with a cumbersome marketing and sales mechanism. In theory, a keycap set could be run at any time. It would only be "limited edition" if a person stepped in and forbid production to artificially restrict availability. That's not a case of natural market forces driving production (i.e., making supply match demand, however limited that may be at any given time). That's manipulating a market to manipulate value. Doing that sort of thing to maintain a multi-billion-dollar diamond empire makes sense to me, even if I object to it on ethical grounds. Doing that sort of thing for custom keycaps just strikes me as bizarre.
Until keycaps are made from some rare, hard to find (or heavily regulated) material, or are hand-made one-by-one by a designer, I am not going to endorse the practice of restricting production and availability just so some small group of collectors can feel like they got in on something "special". By all means, be emotionally attached to your keycaps (I plan to be once I get Space Cadet on my Varmilo). But not at the expense of everyone else who would like them too.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 13 November 2015, 14:06:50
I understand there is a much wider audience now than a few years ago but surely many of us remember when it was difficult to get enough sets sold to start with to make the price practical.
Post by: zslane on Fri, 13 November 2015, 14:15:03
SP, on the other hand, will make as little as one set of something, if you're wiling to pony up the funds to do it. MOQ isn't a hard threshold with them; it is a sliding scale that determines unit costs, nothing more. Therefore, if a set from SP doesn't get made it is because one of two things is getting in the way: either the designer is forbidding (or simply neglecting) subsequent runs, or the number of potential buyers doesn't yield a unit cost they are (collectively) willing to pay. The latter is simple market dynamics at work; the former is dubious motivations at work.
Oh, there is also the case where a designer or GB organizer just doesn't want to go to all the effort of organizing subsequent GBs. I can sympathize with that. But that's why we need a more webstore-like mechanism to take the place of GBs. This takes the burden of running a GB off the shoulders of community members with limited time/interest in re-visiting old sets.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 13 November 2015, 15:00:26
I've been in... quite a few. It'll actually take me a little while to work out the numbers, so I'll post my "stats" later.
Anyway, yes, a lot of sets have only run once simply because there isn't enough demand to support a second run at a reasonable price. Some designers just won't redo a set no matter the demand, though. I can think of at least 3 sets off the top of my head that would get at least 75% of the original number of orders in a second run, but most would not either meet MOQ or get enough orders to bring the price to a decent level.
Another very interesting statistic would be if we could get numbers from livingspeedbump for Jukebox. The main GB is complete and sets are in people's hands. Pictures have been posted, etc. Now they're available on PMK to buy like a standard storefront. I'd love to know how quickly they're selling and whether the total sold on PMK will come close to the GB sales figures.
IMHO, making a set available afterwards makes it less desirable and the sales will reflect that.
I do think some sets would be good to run with a GB-only novelties kit and then subsequently go up on PMK for "regular" sale, but other sets should stick to single runs, all at the discretion of the designer of course.
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 13 November 2015, 17:38:05
Thus it's a limited run more based on community priority than anything. A designer would have no legal recourse for stopping a rerun of the colorway.
Post by: zslane on Fri, 13 November 2015, 17:55:42
IMHO, making a set available afterwards makes it less desirable and the sales will reflect that.
Certainly from a collector's perspective, greater availability objectively lowers the aftermarket value of each instance. However, diminished desirability is a pschological issue that comes from comparing oneself to others and deriving value in life on the basis of what you have that others don't (or vice versa). I'm not sure that's a very laudible basis upon which to base a commercial enterprise. Unless, of course, your goal is to appeal exclusively to collectors and others with the same value system.
Post by: neverused on Fri, 13 November 2015, 18:35:16
Limiting sets is ****ing stupid+1 this.
I'm not here to pay for your feelings or emotional investment. It's the same as buying anything generation 1, you pay more to be first, you don't get as much of a return on your investment when more are sold, and life isn't fair. If you want to maintain value, buy them all so that you can force scarcity.
Post by: Waateva on Fri, 13 November 2015, 18:38:04
Another interesting statistic would be how many GB's each poster has participated in, from IC to having caps in hand and the correlation between their views and GB participation.
I've been in... quite a few. It'll actually take me a little while to work out the numbers, so I'll post my "stats" later.
Anyway, yes, a lot of sets have only run once simply because there isn't enough demand to support a second run at a reasonable price. Some designers just won't redo a set no matter the demand, though. I can think of at least 3 sets off the top of my head that would get at least 75% of the original number of orders in a second run, but most would not either meet MOQ or get enough orders to bring the price to a decent level.
Another very interesting statistic would be if we could get numbers from livingspeedbump for Jukebox. The main GB is complete and sets are in people's hands. Pictures have been posted, etc. Now they're available on PMK to buy like a standard storefront. I'd love to know how quickly they're selling and whether the total sold on PMK will come close to the GB sales figures.
IMHO, making a set available afterwards makes it less desirable and the sales will reflect that.
I do think some sets would be good to run with a GB-only novelties kit and then subsequently go up on PMK for "regular" sale, but other sets should stick to single runs, all at the discretion of the designer of course.
I thought that they were selling the set on PMK because it didn't have enough interest and they were selling the rest of the first run of the set? I was fine with it, because I missed it the first time and really just wanted the novelties, but I saw it on PMK and they arrived today, yay!
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 13 November 2015, 18:43:43
I agree with the comment earlier about needing exclusivity to get people interested in the first place. There are a few really amazing and highly sought after sets out there that barely reached MOQ (some actually didn't but were produced anyway) - those would have had an even harder time if people banked on catching the next run.
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 14 November 2015, 10:34:16
Sets aren't really necessarily up to the designer to determine such limitations. They can't protect the colorway so that piece can be reproduced at will. It's really a matter of whether or not anyone else is interested in taking that up. In general, people tend to focus more on their own colorways rather than rerunning someone else's. Those that do seem to want an existing design don't seem to want it bad enough to step up and do the work to rerun that colorway.
Thus it's a limited run more based on community priority than anything. A designer would have no legal recourse for stopping a rerun of the colorway.
We've been through this in the legalities thread: Signature Plastics will not run someone else's "colourway" without permission from the original designer.
And yes, a designer would have legal recourse. If a design is submitted in a country that has it (most EU countries), the design has automatic legal protection under "design rights" which works the same as copyright: https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p15_design_rights
Note how "the overall impression" is the differentiating factor and it includes "the shape, texture, colour, materials used, contours and ornamentation."
Could you all please post your GB counts (from IC to completion) as I think this is very relevant. If a person has not participated in the process, it would be hard for them to completely understand what I'm talking about here.
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 14 November 2015, 10:40:57
Could you all please post your GB counts (from IC to completion) as I think this is very relevant. If a person has not participated in the process, it would be hard for them to completely understand what I'm talking about here.
Group Buys that we have participated in (as opposed to organizing)? More than I care to count. :P
But I haven't organized one yet.
Post by: zslane on Sat, 14 November 2015, 12:32:55
So, really, enforcing anything resembling IP protection for colorways is entirely at the discretion of SP. If they do so, it is because they have decided to do so as a goodwill gesture towards designers. Not because the American legal system demands it. And as a US manufacturer, they are not required to uphold the IP regulations of any other nation. If they ever change their policies on this, your only real remedy as a European designer is to take your designs elsewhere.
This will most likely become apparent when a keyset design comes along that comes close to a pre-existing design, and opinions on it become deeply divided within the community. SP isn't a court of law, their own policies on this matter aren't laws, and they aren't going to go through the kind of protracted process a real copyright violation hearing would go through, just to decide how to proceed. They'll decide however they wish, according to their own agenda, and all you can be sure of is that half of the community will be pleased and half of the community will be upset.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 November 2015, 13:45:38
Post by: njbair on Sat, 14 November 2015, 15:16:57
Let me guess, still waiting for a mod to approve your GB thread? Been there, man.Could you all please post your GB counts (from IC to completion) as I think this is very relevant. If a person has not participated in the process, it would be hard for them to completely understand what I'm talking about here.
Group Buys that we have participated in (as opposed to organizing)? More than I care to count.
But I haven't organized one yet.
Post by: zslane on Sat, 14 November 2015, 15:57:00
The only reason to be stuck in trying to get a limited edition set is the notion that there will not be anything comparable or even better, ever, it is an attitude ingrained in the notion of scarcity; instead, to think that we are living a golden season for keyboard aficionados with many options to get into GBs or buy some nice sets from a fellow, could open our awareness that if you have missed a nice set, one even better would come.
I see what you're saying. I also think there is another perspective to consider. I don't have a crystal ball, and I can't bet on a "better one" that doesn't, and may never, exist. I can really only make an informed decision today based on what is available today (or is known to become available in the near future).
When I look at all the custom keysets that have come out over the last five years (roughly?), there are darn few I would care to put on my keyboards. That indicates to me that my tastes are particular enough that the odds of sets coming along that I will like better than the ones I am jonesing for now, are rather slim. Moreover, until recently I didn't have any nice keysets on my keyboards. I didn't have anything to hold me over until my Round 5a caps became a reality. It was a situation that needed immediate relief and, consequently, required that I go hunt down previous sets that are no longer in production.
Any newcomer to the world of mech keyboards and custom keycap sets will be in the same boat. And the lack of availability of a set you do like can't always be assuaged with the hope that something better will come along some day. We newbies need caps now, not six months from now, not a year from now, and not in some indeterminate future.
I now have four lovely sets on various keyboards, and my intense need to be typing on such things is satisfied for now. I can sit back and wait for Round 5a in peace. But that was not always the case, and making anything limited edition just puts up needless barriers for newbies who have the misfortune to fall in love with something so highly and unnecessarily collectible as, say, Pulse. Whose to say they'll ever find something they like better? Such hope could be forlorn for many.
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 14 November 2015, 16:40:26
Let me guess, still waiting for a mod to approve your GB thread? Been there, man.Could you all please post your GB counts (from IC to completion) as I think this is very relevant. If a person has not participated in the process, it would be hard for them to completely understand what I'm talking about here.
Group Buys that we have participated in (as opposed to organizing)? More than I care to count.
But I haven't organized one yet.
http://i.imgur.com/KPAqB2j.gif
Ouch! :P
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 14 November 2015, 17:00:50
First off, a colourway is not a set design. Secondly, copyright is not the same as design right. You're correct, in the US designs sit in a grey area between copyright and patent, but you can get a design patent if you want to spend money to get protection, which is ridiculous for a keycap set design.
But regardless, SP respects designs and even goes to the length of having the designer sign documents about their use of the design. It's recognised by the manufacturer and that's enough.
And you're right, SP would decide based on their own agenda... which will likely be to not run the controversial set. This is in their best interests, since if designers feel that SP doesn't respect them or their work, they won't run their designs through SP any more. Basic business.
And there are many ways around a situation like this. Designers can be a touchy bunch, but in every situation I can think of of a design copy accusation, they can reach a compromise that satisifies them. A change of shades of the colour, usually to better match the inspiration, colour layout changes, profile change, etc are usually enough to differentiate a design so the original designer is okay with the other set. If compromise can't be reached, then either the design really is too similar to the original and going through with the GB would be a mistake as the majority of the community would likely boycott the design (or not be interested if they bought the original) and SP probably won't run it, or the original designer is simply being an ass. In which case, they're the ones who'll have a problem, since they'll be losing the support of a large portion of the community.
In the end it's not legal, it's managed by members of a community, and fortunately one in which (most) fellow members respect each other and their work. So this hypothetical situation you're talking about that has never come up in all the time of people designing and running sets, is pointless.
(http://www.thenerdpirates.com/uploads/2/7/6/1/27616051/1090360_orig.jpg)
Anyhow, this rights stuff is all off-topic.
About sets that you truly like never coming round, there is of course a very simple solution: Design your own set. If the set is really worth wanting, you're probably not the only one wanting it. Design it, start an IC and see how it goes. If exactly what you want has been run before and it's the one you truly have to have, then be patient and you'll eventually be able to get it through classifieds or mechmarket. Even PuLSE has had some come up for resale.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: "Community designed sets are not, and should not be mass-produced and mass-market products" for the simple reason that the mass market will not buy them. They're a niche product for a niche community.
And we are indeed living in a golden era for keycap enthusiasts with new (good) set designs popping up all the time.
Post by: swimmingbird on Sat, 14 November 2015, 17:37:37
We newbies need caps now, not six months from now, not a year from now, and not in some indeterminate future.
It's funny that you say this - when I was new I followed the exact same thinking patterns that you are now - "all the keycap sets need to be rerun!" - I'd say something altruistic about it but it was really just because I wanted them for myself.
Wait till you have a few keysets under your belt and I think your tune will change as your priorities shift from "having everything" to "Wow I bought a crap load of stuff - I hope it maintains it's value"
Aside from this debate I personally think that it makes keyboards more interesting as a hobby when things are not readily available. I get genuinely excited when I see a set of Soware come up on the classifieds or the mad rush trying to be one of the 25 to score a TGR Jane CE. If everything is readily available it would get very boring very quickly.
The trade-oriented nature of getting stuff in the community is something that contributes heavily to having an actual sense of community - you help people out in getting something and they help you out and you make good friends in the process. It's this reason that I really hate the idea of everything being redone and redone more than any sort of artificial scarcity/driving prices up.
Post by: Niomosy on Sat, 14 November 2015, 18:57:53
You can already see it happening. Mech boards are available in a number of options. Full, TKL, 75%, and 60% boards are pretty easily had now with even Fry's and Best Buy carrying the full and TKL boards. The others are easily had from one of at least a few different websites where they had ready inventory. The same with caps where doubleshot PBT caps can be found on Ebay at most any time and even Amazon carries various Cherry compatible caps. PMK seems to have ready cap availability in mind for their site which will bring further commodification of the keyboard world as businesses continue to enter into that market and capitalize on areas missing in mass availability.
Personally, I'm happy to see increased ready availability of products for people. Easy entry into market for the masses is perfectly fine with me. The keyboard community will just find some new niche or another to jump into.
Post by: zslane on Sat, 14 November 2015, 20:08:24
Now I agree that it isn't feasible to try and sell custom keycaps to the masses simply due to the fact that, as Oobly points out, the masses aren't interested. But that's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating for a sales mechanism where by anyone who is interested in buying a set can do so, at any time (subject to SP's inventory levels and manufacturing schedules). This community shouldn't be a place where members gather to buy and sell and trade their collections as the only means of obtaining what they want. That's a collector's mentality and not everyone is here to be a collector.
And let's all realize that custom keycaps sets that cost $100+ will never be a mass-market item. This will always be a tiny niche market no matter how fancy keyboards appear to get in places like Fry's or Best Buy. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that these bits of plastic will ever be so commodified that you'll see sets like SA Retro on keyboards in every cubicle. No matter how open you make availability, it will still be so incredibly niche that everyone ought to still feel quite "special".
Post by: swimmingbird on Sat, 14 November 2015, 20:20:52
The scenario I think might one day challenge the status quo is one in which a colorway that matches a previous one is proposed out of frustration at the original designer's unwillingness to allow the original set to be re-run. This isn't a case of accidentally matching a colorway, or even a case of trying to compete with a currently available colorway. This would be a case in which a designer's self-annointed right of refusal becomes a catalyst for a copycat design. A group of buyers say, "We want this colorway," and one individual replies, "No, you can't have it." And the discussion is expected to end there, and when it doesn't, controversy and much needless community debate will ensue. Maybe it hasn't happened yet, but I don't think it is "silly" to think it could.
Now I agree that it isn't feasible to try and sell custom keycaps to the masses simply due to the fact that, as Oobly points out, the masses aren't interested. But that's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating for a sales mechanism where by anyone who is interested in buying a set can do so, at any time (subject to SP's inventory levels and manufacturing schedules). This community shouldn't be a place where members gather to buy and sell and trade their collections as the only means of obtaining what they want. That's a collector's mentality and not everyone is here to be a collector.
And let's all realize that custom keycaps sets that cost $100+ will never be a mass-market item. This will always be a tiny niche market no matter how fancy keyboards appear to get in places like Fry's or Best Buy. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that these bits of plastic will ever be so commodified that you'll see sets like SA Retro on keyboards in every cubicle. No matter how open you make availability, it will still be so incredibly niche that everyone ought to still feel quite "special".
I don't think the scenario you outlined in the first case is ever going to happen.
Everyone on the community who runs GBs tends to be pretty cool and the people who are diecore enough to actually try and organise a GB for someone else's design against their wishes is probably going to have a pretty hard time making the numbers in the community.
The more likely scenario is that people will simply scour the classifieds until they get a set and then they will totally forget about ever running a GB for it
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 14 November 2015, 21:42:03
Post by: Niomosy on Sat, 14 November 2015, 21:43:59
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 November 2015, 22:21:43
There are awesome boards with extra special sets and when I see pictures of them I always wonder how much the fellow owner has paid for all that and for how long she was hunting for the parts and caps, and in most cases that would be over four or more hundred bucks and months if not years of searching, so if I want to have something similar I should be willing to spend the money and time needed, or keep my invested low and buy what it is readily available and live with it.
Post by: swimmingbird on Sat, 14 November 2015, 23:29:34
The level of entitlement is strong in this thread. A little patience and engagement with the community will go a long way around here. Coming in and acting like you should get everything you want whenever you want it? Well, good luck with that.
Yup. The only type of people that make these sorts of posts tend to be fairly new and low on the post count
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 15 November 2015, 00:26:32
The level of entitlement is strong in this thread. A little patience and engagement with the community will go a long way around here. Coming in and acting like you should get everything you want whenever you want it? Well, good luck with that.
Yup. The only type of people that make these sorts of posts tend to be fairly new and low on the post count
Some people join because they have seen a picture of someone's keyboard somewhere with a particular keycap set, and they wish to duplicate the result, or at least something similar.
Many are surprised how difficult it can be to obtain a certain keycap set, or a particular artisan keycap.
Post by: Karura on Sun, 15 November 2015, 01:48:30
Another thing to note, I realize that this is only a SP issue, as GMK is extremely tough to meet MOQ, and even meeting the MOQ for the first run is already quite difficult. For example, I doubt SKIDATA+ will ever get re-run, but I put in the effort to create Relegendables, which I doubt will ever get made again, due to MOQ; however, if someone decides to run it again, there is no chance of seeing Relegendables, maybe something like that?
That said, I want to point out that not only for keyboards, but I've been on the other end where I missed out on a very limited edition, or discontinued item, and be fortunate enough to acquire one later when the company decides to reissue a small quantity.
I feel that under the circumstances that:
1) There wasn't enough time to place an order.
2) The quantity offered was too little despite the demand.
Perhaps it is fair to do a re-run, as long as it isn't a constantly recurring theme *cough* Granite*. Just my 2cents, but I see benefits to both sides of the argument, and agree with offering a first-run-only special novelty or something pack. :thumb:
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 15 November 2015, 02:55:39
That said, I feel I've been part of our push astray from Oobly's original topic so I'll do my part to help get us back in line.
Oobly, first I apologize for my contributions to getting us off-topic. Second, to answer your question, I've been here a few years (several? I'd need to check) and have participated (purchased product) in only a single group buy. In my years here only two or three other GBs have particularly interested me and for both, I wasn't even fully sold on them until after the run was done. One of those three I've subsequently lost interest in and have been more content to miss out on. To be honest, I've not really lost sleep over missing out on either deal.
As to your proposed solution, I think I've responded to that but subsequent runs of them minus novelties would certainly be something to consider. The other thing is if MoQs can actually be met. Certain sets could certainly go this route. It seems like the PMK idea of doing additional small runs may work well for several sets. In many cases, buyers were on the fence and sat out of the initial buy only to regret it later once the product was in peoples hands and pictures were being posted.
@karura - this is mostly for SP at the moment but I'm curious to see how that will play out with a newcomer like JTK as well. Certainly JTK is already becoming a consideration as an alternative to GMK given the MoQ issues you've pointed out. I'm wondering what kind of potential we have there for smaller MoQs to allow for additional runs. I recall matt3o also mentioning that he has a maker lined up for his work-in-progress tall spherical PBT keycaps. We might have potential there for small MoQs as well. Certainly exciting times for keycaps in general.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 15 November 2015, 08:19:58
Post by: tronbeaver on Sun, 15 November 2015, 09:31:22
http://www.keypop.net/product/jt-keycap-royal-purple-white-keyset
Post by: ideus on Sun, 15 November 2015, 09:38:20
Post by: zslane on Sun, 15 November 2015, 12:25:44
I get it. My perspective isn't going to get much traction here, and that's okay. I'm not really campaigning for myself at this point. I have (or will have) all the keycap sets I want and so don't have any skin in the game (as a buyer, anyway). I'm mostly thinking of all the newbies to come who will have the needlessly frustrating experience I had. And it is they I will be thinking of when I endeavor to make SA Dasher as widely available and easily obtainable as possible (assuming, of course, it draws enough interest to get run in the first place). I think it would be incredibly cool to see SA Dasher everywhere, not just in the sub-reddit streams of a fortunate few who knew about it--and had the funds for it--during a single "limited" run.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 15 November 2015, 12:35:08
Fair enough.
I get it. My perspective isn't going to get much traction here, and that's okay. I'm not really campaigning for myself at this point. I have (or will have) all the keycap sets I want and so don't have any skin in the game (as a buyer, anyway). I'm mostly thinking of all the newbies to come who will have the needlessly frustrating experience I had. And it is they I will be thinking of when I endeavor to make SA Dasher as widely available and easily obtainable as possible (assuming, of course, it draws enough interest to get run in the first place). I think it would be incredibly cool to see SA Dasher everywhere, not just in the sub-reddit streams of a fortunate few who knew about it--and had the funds for it--during a single "limited" run.
Another SA set? Um, well, an SA would hardly be a LE.
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 15 November 2015, 12:42:39
JTK is not taking custom orders yet and it may not do that ever, because they are tightly intertwined with a particular vendor that is known to be very creative and has the support of the community, therefore they may have a long, long, long pipeline of ideas for sets to be offered.
I suppose we'll have to see how that plays out. JTK is heavily associated with a particular vendor and there are already planned sets for JTK to run. They do seem to be lining up a good amount of business as you've noted.
As to GMK versus JTK, I think people have at least been willing thus far to give JTK a try. GMK has a known high MoQ so smaller sets may not end up with much of a choice.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 15 November 2015, 12:46:24
JTK is not taking custom orders yet and it may not do that ever, because they are tightly intertwined with a particular vendor that is known to be very creative and has the support of the community, therefore they may have a long, long, long pipeline of ideas for sets to be offered.
I suppose we'll have to see how that plays out. JTK is heavily associated with a particular vendor and there are already planned sets for JTK to run. They do seem to be lining up a good amount of business as you've noted.
As to GMK versus JTK, I think people have at least been willing thus far to give JTK a try. GMK has a known high MoQ so smaller sets may not end up with much of a choice.
If they keep prices low for GBs it would be interesting to explore their offerings, as long as designs are attractive and creative. But they should improve quality.
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 15 November 2015, 12:59:50
JTK is not taking custom orders yet and it may not do that ever, because they are tightly intertwined with a particular vendor that is known to be very creative and has the support of the community, therefore they may have a long, long, long pipeline of ideas for sets to be offered.
I suppose we'll have to see how that plays out. JTK is heavily associated with a particular vendor and there are already planned sets for JTK to run. They do seem to be lining up a good amount of business as you've noted.
As to GMK versus JTK, I think people have at least been willing thus far to give JTK a try. GMK has a known high MoQ so smaller sets may not end up with much of a choice.
If they keep prices low for GBs it would be interesting to explore their offerings, as long as designs are attractive and creative. But they should improve quality.
Low prices will certainly make JTK more attractive. That and an expanded range of color would make them additionally enticing for designers that need colors beyond what GMK offers.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 15 November 2015, 13:03:14
JTK is not taking custom orders yet and it may not do that ever, because they are tightly intertwined with a particular vendor that is known to be very creative and has the support of the community, therefore they may have a long, long, long pipeline of ideas for sets to be offered.
I suppose we'll have to see how that plays out. JTK is heavily associated with a particular vendor and there are already planned sets for JTK to run. They do seem to be lining up a good amount of business as you've noted.
As to GMK versus JTK, I think people have at least been willing thus far to give JTK a try. GMK has a known high MoQ so smaller sets may not end up with much of a choice.
If they keep prices low for GBs it would be interesting to explore their offerings, as long as designs are attractive and creative. But they should improve quality.
Low prices will certainly make JTK more attractive. That and an expanded range of color would make them additionally enticing for designers that need colors beyond what GMK offers.
Only if they are open to make others' designs instead of only their own ones.
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 15 November 2015, 13:27:35
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 15 November 2015, 14:40:48
Only if they are open to make others' designs instead of only their own ones.
If you're talking about [CTRL]ALT, they actually want to run group buys for others. They ran my Hack'd set, so that I could concentrate on the set design, and they took care of the logistics. As far as I know, they actually want this to be part of what they offer...a group buy service for organizers which is manufacturer agnostic.
Post by: Badwrench on Sun, 15 November 2015, 15:05:02
Manly Unicorn is being planned for JTK though it's through JTK's associate here. That might still offer designers some ability to use JTK. You're right that there are still a lot of unknowns with regard to JTK.
Only if they are open to make others' designs instead of only their own ones.
If you're talking about [CTRL]ALT, they actually want to run group buys for others. They ran my Hack'd set, so that I could concentrate on the set design, and they took care of the logistics. As far as I know, they actually want this to be part of what they offer...a group buy service for organizers which is manufacturer agnostic.
Exactly. The addition of JTK has opened up another avenue for more interesting designs that will be attainable for a reasonable cost as compared to GMK. JD's Hack'd set and hopefully Nubbinator's Manly Unicorn are great starts to CTRL ALT's philosophy of getting the most forum driven designs into the hands of the most people. As far as missing the GBs, that is total blind luck as to when you get into this hobby and how deep your wallet is. There are currently several sets that are up or just ended, and any of them may end up in this "limited edition" condition you are talking about. The Pulse set when it was first being designed had a strong following, but right as the GB was going through, the organizer turned into an ass to the community that helped build it and as a result, very few of the proposed buyers actually purchased it. Result = "limited edition".
Being part of the community and having a very large amount of patience will make these "limited edition" sets be a very attainable thing. Post count should be a moot thing. If you are passionate about this hobby, just post and enjoy it for what it is. Take part in group buys that are current if you are interested in the set. Know that one day after you have attained a few sets, the desire to own them all will diminish and you will be more contend. There are very few keysets that lose value in that our hobby is very much a supply/demand thing and the larger it grows, the more the demand.
Post by: Oobly on Sun, 15 November 2015, 15:38:51
I agree that post count doesn't mean anything, really, my request about GB participation is relevant to the discussion in that participation in a GB from start to finish will give a person a better understanding of the process and what's involved, including what a designer does throughout and the more they participate in the better understanding they could have, especially if they're with different manufacturers, GB systems and designers.
I've bought sets through "traditional" user organised methods, the old PMK, Massdrop and [Ctrl]Alt, with a range of designers and manufacturers (GMK, Gateron, Signature Plastics) and feel I have a decent grip on the processes involved. I'm also co-designing a set to be run through SP at some point and have a lot of contact with SP regarding various projects. Part of the point of the thread is to guage opinions for deciding how to run some future designs of my own and to confirm / bust some of my own suppositions. We're pretty sure how we'll run Clasic Space already.
I find it a really exciting time to be involved in the hobby and all the main manufacturers seem to have started paying more attention to the community as it's growing, with new manufacturers getting involved, too. I'm hoping to have some effect in increasing the possibilities and options for designers with SP and making designers more aware of all the options as well.
Again, thanks to all for your participation and please keep the opinions coming. The more info we have the better. Hopefully it can be an informative thread for people, too.
Post by: zslane on Sun, 15 November 2015, 16:06:14
Fair enough.
I get it. My perspective isn't going to get much traction here, and that's okay. I'm not really campaigning for myself at this point. I have (or will have) all the keycap sets I want and so don't have any skin in the game (as a buyer, anyway). I'm mostly thinking of all the newbies to come who will have the needlessly frustrating experience I had. And it is they I will be thinking of when I endeavor to make SA Dasher as widely available and easily obtainable as possible (assuming, of course, it draws enough interest to get run in the first place). I think it would be incredibly cool to see SA Dasher everywhere, not just in the sub-reddit streams of a fortunate few who knew about it--and had the funds for it--during a single "limited" run.
Another SA set? Um, well, an SA would hardly be a LE.
Hmm. The title of this thread seems to equate "one-run only" with "limited edition". If so, then were I to allow SA Dasher to only be run once it would be LE, by Ooby's definition anyway. Unless I am misunderstanding what he means by "limited edition" and the connection he seems to be making between it and a set that is "one-run only".
Post by: zslane on Sun, 15 November 2015, 16:15:39
Post by: njbair on Sun, 15 November 2015, 21:41:59
So Oobly, how would you characterize the advantages and disadvantages of each keyset delivery site/vehicle that we have now?I'll take a stab at this.
PMK, although recently under scrutiny for draconian terms of service, seems to have addressed those issues and positioned themselves to be the first no-wait purchasing platform for custom keycaps. How well that can actually work, though, remains to be seen.
Massdrop is the established player here. A Massdrop buy will get you big numbers, but recent events have shown that they also may not be the best choice for designers/buy organizers who wish to retain control of their own designs.
Community-run GBs are the best option for retaining control, but they are a lot of work and riskier for the buyer.
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 15 November 2015, 23:10:07
As for MD, what's this on it not being the best choice for designers?
Post by: zslane on Sun, 15 November 2015, 23:34:34
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 16 November 2015, 00:02:52
What I think some of have noted from that is the lack of obtaining purchase commitment from people via pre-purchase. Such a pre-purchase would give SP a better idea of how much to produce. Simply triggering production from a from an IC with no monetary commitment means it could well be a small run. In most cases, that's probably not an issue. In the case of some of the very popular sets, there would be a lack of sets available to fulfill demand.
I still think the basic idea of having readily-available sets is an excellent idea for SP to pursue. They just seem to need some adjustments made to their system at the moment.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 00:50:54
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 16 November 2015, 01:06:53
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 16 November 2015, 02:31:15
So Oobly, how would you characterize the advantages and disadvantages of each keyset delivery site/vehicle that we have now?
Ooh.. that is the million dollar question. Right now, the new PMK is really a big unknown, although we can extrapolate from information we have as to how it will most likely work out.
This will be a big post, sorry in advance...
Massdrop is best for big numbers. Simply because it's a popular site which gives exposure to people outside of the DT / GH / /r/mech communities. And it's an easy platform to order from, with good visual layout, etc. So you get a lot of orders from people who see the set listed and think "I like that, gimme one". The costs involved are a bit higher than with PMK or self-organised GBs since MD have their own fee, but it's less hassle for organisers since MD take care of managing funds, creating the bulk order with SP and sorting and shipping. They've had some "bad press" for the method of shipping used for Triumph Adler, but subsequent sets have been packaged better. I'm not aware of any "control" issues, but perhaps someone like tombery, Data or livingspeedbump could give some more feedback in this regard, since their sets have been run through MD.
"Тraditional", self-organised GBs are lot of work and hassle for an organiser, but you get to control everything about the run and the costs are minimised. In some cases, proxies are arranged, too, which reduces the overall costs for foreign buyers, too. Most designers / organisers nowadays find this too much work, but there are still some who do it. Paypal have recently changed their system a bit which makes collecting payments for a self-run GB a PITA, though, since they are locking accounts.
The "new" PMK site is the wildcard right now. They have a few things which I think will not work very well, but some that could be very beneficial. They definitely should chage the "Interest Check" part of the process, at the very least in name, since that stage is more like the voting stage at MD or the actual taking orders stage. The true interest check is complete by the time a set gets to the PMK site, as confirmed by SP. They want the design ready for production before submission to them. They have already changed their "License and Royalties" terms after the feedback in the other mentioned thread and I have been in dialogue with Bob Guenser (owner of SP) about further "improvements". The biggest remaining problem with the current "IC" voting system is that they don't get an accurate view of the total number of people who will buy the set from that. Just a vague notion of if the set is popular or not. That's not enough information to accurately guage how many sets to make and they have a history of getting it wrong (with the old site). They need to change it to a time based system and make it an "intent to buy" / preorder request rather than an interest check to get real numbers of how many will buy it.
In terms of speed to production, it's largely dependent on how SP manages things. In a sense, large orders from MD can be seen as proper client orders and should be treated as such, which should mean they get precedence over "internal" SP / PMK orders. On the other hand, SP usually handle things with "slots", so when a new run is planned they reserve a production slot for the run in their queue. Let's assume that both would be managed the same way by SP, so both would get the same production slot if they were requested / reserved at the same time:
MD: IC is done on GH / DT / Reddit. Towards completion of the design, they contact MD, MD then opens a poll for the set. This can be done before the design is complete, but after a good portion is done, so people have a decent impression of the set. If after voting the set is desired by MD, they start to arrange the MD buy, including getting quotes from SP and requesting production slot and estimated date from them. MD may skip the vote / poll if they think the set will be popular and go straight to the sale stage. An important thing to note is that the design can be changed during the ordering stage of an MD buy, although most should be pretty much complete before the buy starts. This is important because if there is feedback during the buy that something is missing / incorrect, it can be fixed before the order is placed with SP (ideally this should happen at the IC stage, but with the larger audience of MD sometimes things are only noticed at this stage). Then the ordering starts and runs for a certain time period, after which the order is placed and estimated dates are updated to match the production numbers.
PMK: IC is done on GH / DT / Reddit. Once the design is complete and all kits finalised, the set can be submitted to the site. At their discretion, PMK will put the set up for votes. Once a certain number of votes is reached, they decide if they want to run the set or not. If they decide to, they reserve a production slot. Once the production run has started (or perhaps only once it's complete), they put the set up as a product on their online store. Note how the slot is only decided after the "IC" / voting stage and is completely at the discretion of SP. Note also how a person who wants the set cannot guarantee their place in the GB and needs to buy the set as a product only once production starts / finishes. It's also up to the designer to inform everyone at every stage what's going on. SP has no mechanism yet to inform people of the status of a set between submission and production or estimated production dates.
So if two sets get an IC started at the same time on GH, the one going through MD can get the production slot reserved sooner and thus will end up in your hands quicker. It also allows you to simply order it very soon after the design is completed / as it goes up on MD instead of having to wait for production to start and then quickly trying to buy it on PMK before they're sold out (which could well happen if they keep the current voting system).
I have already informed SP of my thoughts on these matters and suggested improvements to make it work better, but I'm considering adding yet another suggestion. It's very hard / practically impossible for them to judge how many of each child kit to make to go with the base set. You only really know these numbers after a set is run using MD or traditional methods. If they go ahead with the current system, it's likely they'll over / under produce the child kits and either some people won't get the kits they want (which they would through MD) or SP ends up with excess stock of kits they can't sell (which is just bad for the bottom line). If they were to change the "IC" on their site to a true "preorders" section, essentially the same as MD, they can collect your order there, including the child kits and you don't need to go back and "buy" it later. They then get the full picture of how many child kits to make for all preorders and that gives them an idea of how many extras to make. OR.... they could only offer the child kits with the preorders and simply make base kits (plus numpads) to sell as products on the store afterwards. This is akin to what I mentioned in the start of the thread, with all "special" caps only available in the preorders / GB stage.
Another problem is even if they know they should do another run of a set, unless orders for new sets stop coming in, they'll never get a slot for producing it. This has in fact happened with 1976. Their machines are constantly busy with sets ordered on MD and they can't fit the set in.
It's all a big unknown and it's not even settled / finalised yet, so most designers are happier to use MD right now, since it's at least familiar and they know they can get big numbers and guaranteed production of all ordered kits.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 16 November 2015, 09:48:06
Post by: mobbo on Mon, 16 November 2015, 11:55:10
I completely sympathize with newcomers (like my self, in fact) who are trying to get into the game or are attracted to a certain keyset or look only to find out that it is nearly impossible to get. At the same time, you can't expect niche hobbies with a collection component to be accessible the same way regular merchandise is. Let's say I am starting out playing Magic the Gathering, as a newbie I want all the "rarest" cards so I can make a deck that is respectable and worth playing. You usually can't just go to the store and buy these whenever you please, they are rare and scarce, and it takes time to build the resources and connections needed to get what you are looking for. Now why does this matter? Well to me it matters because of which audience these niche hobbies are trying to cater to.
The reality is that it is the hard working, dedicated members of the community who keep it alive. Not the newcomers. Newcommers help the community to grow, and eventually they will indeed be able to contribute in a meaningful way! But no newcomer is going to run a Group Buy, or spend months doing interest checks and constantly trying to perfect their design to be accepted by the community, or make artisan moulds in their kitchen during their very sparse free time. Like any hobby, it is those that have the passion to pour content back into the community that keep it thriving - and hopefully their contributions will make it easier for others to enter into said hobby (and the mk community is growing fast). I know I'd be completely lost without the wealth of information and pictures/videos that people have posted to date.
I don't know if that is the best example but that's the way I've always viewed things. I like limited edition sets but I also approach this hobby with somewhat of a collectors lens, and that lens may be different for different people. What I think is strange when reading some of these comments is the issue of "intent." I doubt a set designer chooses to make a set exclusive for the sole reason of increasing market demand or to retain value. I think a lot of assumptions are made based on the outcome, but how many people have actually talked to the designers before judging their past work based on current market context? Heck, it could be they just didn't want to go through the process of serving hundreds of ungrateful, impatient people again. And even if they simply wanted the set to be "special" and "rare" I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting something you created with your own mind (or hands) to be special!
TL;DR: Yes limited sets are sometimes frustrating for newbies like me. However keep in mind that this is a hobby that is indeed very friendly to newbies - but it does not cater to them! Like any niche hobby, it wouldn't be fun if everything was easy to obtain. If you do not care about the artistic/aesthetic aspect and are purely pragmatic in your use of keyboards - then limited edition sets shouldn't even be on your radar.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 16 November 2015, 12:00:04
[SNIP]
WELL SAID. Thank you very much for this well thought out, informative post!
Post by: Waateva on Mon, 16 November 2015, 12:06:23
Can I make a comparison to the "newbie" argument here? I've had a few very strange, very expensive hobbies which have a collection component.
I completely sympathize with newcomers (like my self, in fact) who are trying to get into the game or are attracted to a certain keyset or look only to find out that it is nearly impossible to get. At the same time, you can't expect niche hobbies with a collection component to be accessible the same way regular merchandise is. Let's say I am starting out playing Magic the Gathering, as a newbie I want all the "rarest" cards so I can make a deck that is respectable and worth playing. You usually can't just go to the store and buy these whenever you please, they are rare and scarce, and it takes time to build the resources and connections needed to get what you are looking for. Now why does this matter? Well to me it matters because of which audience these niche hobbies are trying to cater to.
The reality is that it is the hard working, dedicated members of the community who keep it alive. Not the newcomers. Newcommers help the community to grow, and eventually they will indeed be able to contribute in a meaningful way! But no newcomer is going to run a Group Buy, or spend months doing interest checks and constantly trying to perfect their design to be accepted by the community, or make artisan moulds in their kitchen during their very sparse free time. Like any hobby, it is those that have the passion to pour content back into the community that keep it thriving - and hopefully their contributions will make it easier for others to enter into said hobby (and the mk community is growing fast). I know I'd be completely lost without the wealth of information and pictures/videos that people have posted to date.
I don't know if that is the best example but that's the way I've always viewed things. I like limited edition sets but I also approach this hobby with somewhat of a collectors lens, and that lens may be different for different people. What I think is strange when reading some of these comments is the issue of "intent." I doubt a set designer chooses to make a set exclusive for the sole reason of increasing market demand or to retain value. I think a lot of assumptions are made based on the outcome, but how many people have actually talked to the designers before judging their past work based on current market context? Heck, it could be they just didn't want to go through the process of serving hundreds of ungrateful, impatient people again. And even if they simply wanted the set to be "special" and "rare" I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting something you created with your own mind (or hands) to be special!
TL;DR: Yes limited sets are sometimes frustrating for newbies like me. However keep in mind that this is a hobby that is very friendly to newbies - but it does not cater to them! Like any niche hobby, it wouldn't be fun if everything was easy to obtain. If you do not care about the artistic/aesthetic aspect and are purely pragmatic in your use of keyboards - then limited edition sets shouldn't even be on your radar.
Good explanation, I think that the comparison to MTG is pretty accurate. I'm also pretty new to the mech. keyboard modding community and looking at cool sets that I will never own definitely sucks, but the people who purchased those sets were active at the time of their release and spent the time, money, and energy on that set so therefore should be rewarded for that.
I don't have many things that would be considered collectible to others, but I do have a League of Legends account that I have owned since beta, and because of that I have some pretty rare and even extremely rare skins that a lot of new people coming into LoL might really like and might want re-issued. I have seen quite a few discussions online of people complaining that they will never get the chance to own these skins which isn't "fair" and it isn't, but hobbies are not fair a lot of the times and that is something you need to be aware of coming into a specific hobby.
For keysets, as others in this thread have pointed out, there are new sets coming out all of the time now. So while you might've missed out on a certain set you like, there will always be more coming down the road so you can either pay the premium price for a LE or discontinued set or just wait to see if it gets re-issued or if something similar to it comes out.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 16 November 2015, 12:23:22
looking at cool sets that I will never own definitely sucks...
Don't be so sure about that. I just sold some "rare" or limited release keycap sets to fund a major purchase. You will never know if you can obtain something unless you ask for it. Like someone said in this very thread, if you offer a good price for something rare, and don't expect to get it at original cost, you might be surprised what you can obtain.
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 16 November 2015, 12:40:20
[SNIP]
WELL SAID. Thank you very much for this well thought out, informative post!
+1! Very good post!
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 16 November 2015, 12:53:43
As for the newcomers, there are newcomers of all sorts but I wouldn't say that newcomers are and are not doing certain things. We've already witnessed one relative newcomer put up what is already becoming a successful group buy on MassDrop in the Troubled Minds set and have two other newcomers working on sets as well; in fact, one of those newcomers' first post was the IC thread start.
Post by: mobbo on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:06:04
As for the newcomers, there are newcomers of all sorts but I wouldn't say that newcomers are and are not doing certain things. We've already witnessed one relative newcomer put up what is already becoming a successful group buy on MassDrop in the Troubled Minds set and have two other newcomers working on sets as well; in fact, one of those newcomers' first post was the IC thread start.
I definitely didn't want to come across as saying that newcomers don't offer/do anything. Hopefully I'll be able to give back to the community in some way as well - just like those you have mentioned!
I just wanted to make a point that if you don't dive in deep, it will be hard to enjoy or appreciate a lot of things with the "I'm new and I want this now" mentality, simply because the hobby does not cater to that perspective (and I don't just mean ideologically...I mean practically as well). It wasn't really a statement about any individuals but rather the hobby as a whole, which is why I tried to compare it to something similar.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:07:06
Sure, custom keycaps have a small degree of collectibility to them, but that is mostly due to their nature as a niche product category with very small production runs. It shouldn't be because designers and/or manufacturers are going out of their way to make them collectible. Anything that can be done to make them more widely available should be done. We shouldn't have to resign ourselves to this idea that, oh well, these things are for collectors, I guess I will have to become one just to get that lovely keycap set I see photos of on Pinterest.
.
Post by: mobbo on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:16:07
The comparison with MTG isn't quite right since the quantity of every card manufactured is carefully determined for collectibility and a degree of "play balance". These are concerns unique to the CCG industry, an industry that was reviled during its early inception and then tolerated by traditional gamers primarily because it helped keep the dying adventure gaming industry alive during an economic down-cycle (and then embraced by them because, well, the game became addictive for many, myself not included as I'm sure you can guess.)
Sure, custom keycaps have a small degree of collectibility to them, but that is mostly due to their nature as a niche product category with very small production runs. It shouldn't be because designers and/or manufacturers are going out of their way to make them collectible. Anything that can be done to make them more widely available should be done. We shouldn't have to resign ourselves to this idea that, oh well, these things are for collectors, I guess I will have to become one just to get that lovely keycap set I see photos of on Pinterest.
.
Okay, maybe it wasn't the best example then...but what about limited edition applied to something more general. Let's use shoes as an example since it is both something practical like keyboards, but could also have a collector's component.
Should anything that can be done to make rare Jordans more widely available be done? I mean what if I really like this one pair of rare Jordans but I don't want to resign myself to the idea that "damn that's for collectors, I guess I need to become one to have it"? I think if you truly want it and like it, then you'll do what you need to get it and that product will feel very special once you finally obtain it (and it will probably sit in your closet forever) :)) To me the journey is more fun than the destination.
This is just the way I view things perhaps. Not everything can be made widely available to everyone - and I am not remarking on the "should" aspect of it btw, just the "could." I would love for the rare things I desire to be widely available! Heck as someone who lives in practically rural Canada I would like for even some common things found in major cities to be made available!
I really am not trying to play devil's advocate or anything! I would just like to hear your perspective.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:45:09
Yes, of course, designers have every right to make their sets collectible if that is what they wish. But I think it bears pointing out, aggressively and repeatedly if necessary, that not everyone who buys keyboards and keycaps wants to be a collector.
One-run-only sets are great for collectors, but I kind of feel that approach is most suitable when the set has a very specialized theme, with very specialized novelties. Sets with very broad appeal (Granite, is a good example) are ideal candidates for multiple runs precisely because they will appeal to so many people. There may not be very many examples of general-appeal sets that were run only once, but if there are any designers considering it, I want to head them off at the pass and encourage them to reconsider.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:51:12
Hope this made sense.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:55:31
One thing I think you fail to consider is, if the original run was limited in popularity, due to timing or whatever other reason, why would the organizer go to the trouble of releasing the set again? Surely he thinks that it will again fail to garner much interest, so what would be the point? Also, saying that something will be produced "one-time-only" during the group buy ordering phase is a marketing ploy to try and drum up more orders. If people think they can sit out the buy, and catch it the next time it comes around, there may be low order numbers for the original buy, and therefore higher prices due to the way pricing tiers are structured.
Hope this made sense.
I think it could even be said many sets have been much more popular AFTER the group buy delivered than they were in the process.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:58:04
What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.
Post by: mobbo on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:06:48
I guess I am one of those newbies that is only in this to get my keycaps and then put them on my keyboards (oh, and solicit advice on how to find the best of both). I'm not a collector, I'm not into vintage keyboards, and I'm not into hacking anything. Just gimme my Honey and Cadet (and Dasher) and I'll be on my way.
Yes, of course, designers have every right to make their sets collectible if that is what they wish. But I think it bears pointing out, aggressively and repeatedly if necessary, that not everyone who buys keyboards and keycaps wants to be a collector.
Agree 100% with this point.
Which is why I posted in my TL;DR, that if you are one of those people who prefer the pragmatic approach to keyboards, rather than the collector's approach then limited edition sets shouldn't be of primary concern. There are plenty of sets available in any colorway one could want in many different profiles, so for pure typing I would imagine that these cheaper, easier to obtain sets would suffice?
But I understand in your case, there is some overlap in what you want to use and what you desire in terms of aesthetics!
I also want to mention that most of the examples I've seen in this thread point to Groub Buys run by specific individuals. They are not businesses or companies, so it is obviously not in their best interest to try everything they can to make it available to everyone. I can understand if it is someone who is looking to make keycaps for a living and start a keyboard related business but for the large majority it's just other enthusiasts like me or you who take time out of their already busy lives to try and make something creative that people will enjoy. Their agenda is therefore not one of constant mass production or distribution.
What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.
I think your vision is totally valid! And I do believe the mech keyboard community is growing large enough to explore some of the options you are suggesting! Trust me the collector's group mentality seems the most prominent because those are the most vocal ones here in relation to the thread topic. There are plenty of others who don't care at all for it and would most definitely prefer some way to order sets without hassle.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:07:54
Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.
What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.
But we want exactly the set we want with as many keys for as many odd boards as we can squeeze in for as cheap as possible, that has been the entire reason for having group buys.
I don't think many of us trust SP to be able to properly handle that. They'll either mark the price up too high or will have very basic generic sets without the extra keys many have come to expect and need for custom or non-standard keyboards.
I realize we don't all have the same expectations on pricing but when we know a full featured set can be had for say $115 there is no reason to pay $150 for the same set.
I think people have forgotten we used to do group buys to both save money and get nice things, now everyone just thinks group buys are to get whatever random set someone thinks up produced no matter the cost.
Post by: zlittell on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:09:01
I think that possibly including GB only exclusives might be a great "trick". I had been introduced to the world of board games when I started work at the company I am with now. I program out of a trailer with a couple of guys that have more board games than you can imagine. They also kickstart more board games than seems reasonable. Sometimes they go all out on a game for the bundles or extras. Sometimes they know a game will be cheaper after release and have kickstarted too much stuff that month($600-700 a month at times). So they buy just the base game to get the stretch goals and exclusives. Some people have no care for the exclusives, but for many people its the entire reason to kickstart. There are some board games that you just won't be able to buy again until another run is done. Not everyone has the interest in selling merchandise in a store. It is just the nature of the beast.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:12:51
Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.
What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.
But we want exactly the set we want with as many keys for as many odd boards as we can squeeze in for as cheap as possible, that has been the entire reason for having group buys.
I don't think many of us trust SP to be able to properly handle that. They'll either mark the price up too high or will have very basic generic sets without the extra keys many have come to expect and need for custom or non-standard keyboards.
I realize we don't all have the same expectations on pricing but when we know a full featured set can be had for say $115 there is no reason to pay $150 for the same set.
I think people have forgotten we used to do group buys to both save money and get nice things, now everyone just thinks group buys are to get whatever random set someone thinks up produced no matter the cost.
Good point, Ray. Not everyone wants to have PMK run their group buy. Some of us would prefer to do it the old way, for greater compatibility at less cost!
Also, zslane, how much was your last pay check from Signature Plastics?
Post by: shibataken on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:25:01
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:31:14
Now, as much as I am a fan of SP's keycaps, I'm not completely sold on the PMK webstore as a place to run a set...yet. I agree with Oobly that there are some very important details still to be worked out. But I like the direction it is going philosophically.
Post by: Waateva on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:32:56
looking at cool sets that I will never own definitely sucks...
Don't be so sure about that. I just sold some "rare" or limited release keycap sets to fund a major purchase. You will never know if you can obtain something unless you ask for it. Like someone said in this very thread, if you offer a good price for something rare, and don't expect to get it at original cost, you might be surprised what you can obtain.
That is true, I still keep my eyes out for those sets but so far the few times I have seen them they were at a pretty hefty markup (200% or more) so I would rather just get another set than pay two or three times the original price. I also am not losing any sleep over these sets, they are there if I want to spend the large sums of money for them but at this point, I would rather buy another keyboard to try than buy a keyset for hundreds of dollars.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:33:50
I don't think the cost argument will ever be terribly relevant. This will always be so niche that what we traffic in will always come at a premium. And collectors will spend as much as they need to to get what they want, even while they howl in protest over the cost. Cries of "too rich for my blood" tend to get drowned out by the demands for blanks and keys for third-standard-deviation layouts. Getting the most for the least is not a practical marketing or purchasing strategy and probably never will be.
Oh, I think you're very wrong on that account. My mostly-all-inclusive Hack'd By Geeks SA set was $115, and sales were somewhat below expectations, probably due to the price. Ivan has tried to run some all-inclusive buys at $150, and they never make MOQ.
Post by: Waateva on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:42:09
I don't think the cost argument will ever be terribly relevant. This will always be so niche that what we traffic in will always come at a premium. And collectors will spend as much as they need to to get what they want, even while they howl in protest over the cost. Cries of "too rich for my blood" tend to get drowned out by the demands for blanks and keys for third-standard-deviation layouts. Getting the most for the least is not a practical marketing or purchasing strategy and probably never will be.
Oh, I think you're very wrong on that account. My mostly-all-inclusive Hack'd By Geeks SA set was $115, and sales were somewhat below expectations, probably due to the price. Ivan has tried to run some all-inclusive buys at $150, and they never make MOQ.
Price definitely comes into play when ordering sets for a lot of buyers. Of course the collectors and the people who really, really want a set will be willing to shell out some big money if needed to get the set that they want, but keysets over $100 certainly run the risk of moving out of a lot of people's price range. For instance, I really like the SKIDATA+ set but really wanted the color pack as well, however, with Christmas coming there was no way in hell I was going to drop almost $250 for the base set, color pack, and other fees like shipping and GB fees without my wife beating me senseless.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:43:17
1. It had been run on MassDrop instead of Ctrl[Alt].
2. It had been sold as a base kit and a bunch of child kits.
I'm not so sure that folks were turned off by the price of Hack'd as much, perhaps, by the fact that it was an All or Nothing deal. Some folks will like the convenience of paying one price and not having to make any decisions. But lots of folks will dislike having to buy so many keycaps they don't want or need, even if they can afford the price.
But I'm just speculating, thinking out loud, if you will. I don't know if we'll ever know all the reasons a set underperforms sales-wise (one must also weigh performance against expectations, which is tricky voodoo in and of itself).
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 16 November 2015, 16:56:00
Right now, everyone seems to be holding off on submitting everything. At least, we haven't seen anything submitted yet. Perhaps everyone is waiting for someone else to be the first? Hard to say.
Post by: user 18 on Mon, 16 November 2015, 17:56:16
Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.
What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.
The model you propose here really only makes sense if re-run orders come in quickly. If, for example, such orders trickle in over a long period of time, the people who placed older orders are not necessarily still interested in the set, or keyboards in general for that matter. It may also be the case that people's financial situation has changed such that they are no longer able to afford a set that they once would have picked up without a second thought. We already see this phenomenon exhibited in long ICs, where users who were very excited about a set at the start of the IC are no longer interested several months later when the order phase of the GB comes to a close.
At the point where such orders do come in quickly, this is essentially a re-run of the original group buy, as (pre-)orders are taken over a short period of time, caps are made, and orders are fulfilled.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 16 November 2015, 18:05:17
Post by: swimmingbird on Mon, 16 November 2015, 18:08:00
One has to wonder, though, how sales of Hack'd might have been different if:
1. It had been run on MassDrop instead of Ctrl[Alt].
2. It had been sold as a base kit and a bunch of child kits.
I'm not so sure that folks were turned off by the price of Hack'd as much, perhaps, by the fact that it was an All or Nothing deal. Some folks will like the convenience of paying one price and not having to make any decisions. But lots of folks will dislike having to buy so many keycaps they don't want or need, even if they can afford the price.
But I'm just speculating, thinking out loud, if you will. I don't know if we'll ever know all the reasons a set underperforms sales-wise (one must also weigh performance against expectations, which is tricky voodoo in and of itself).
I think that the everything included approach is the right way to go forward.
I would rather put a burning sparkler up my urethra than have to buy into expensive child deals
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 November 2015, 18:11:38
Having said that, PMK is trying to foster the notion that their new system gets keycaps into customers' hands faster than the traditional methods. If they deliver on that notion, then we may see reduced intervals of "dead time" and less buyer attrition. If not, then you're right, they won't have really solved anything.
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:30:28
For new sets, however? That's a much different story. Oobly touched on this in the PMK thread but they're likely only to shave off a small portion of the time of a set's pre-production life. The vast majority of time for a set is in two places. The first is the community-based interest check phase where all facets of the set are gone over and adjustments made prior to submission. The second is simply waiting for a production slot window, production, shipping, and delivery. The time being shaven is the pre-order phase and possibly the double shipping as they would ship straight to individuals.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 17 November 2015, 00:33:19
PMK can get caps into people faster but not per drop. Over time, they hope to build up enough sets to stock that they have ready availability of many sets for immediate purchase.
For new sets, however? That's a much different story. Oobly touched on this in the PMK thread but they're likely only to shave off a small portion of the time of a set's pre-production life. The vast majority of time for a set is in two places. The first is the community-based interest check phase where all facets of the set are gone over and adjustments made prior to submission. The second is simply waiting for a production slot window, production, shipping, and delivery. The time being shaven is the pre-order phase and possibly the double shipping as they would ship straight to individuals.
From my very long post:
"So if two sets get an IC started at the same time on GH, the one going through MD can get the production slot reserved sooner and thus will end up in your hands quicker."
SP won't reserve a production slot until after the "IC"/preorder stage, whereas MD reserves a slot before the set goes up as a GB. Another thing that possibly makes the PMK version slower is the fact that you can only buy the set once it goes up on their store and they may only put it up once production is complete, so you'd have to order on the same day it goes up to get it quickly.
MD is just less hassle for people participating in GB's and even for designers, since they have to keep everyone informed of the set status and let people know when it goes up for sale. With MD or traditional systems, you order it once and then you're done.
That said, I do think that PMK has the potential to be the most awesome GB system ever, but it requires some big changes and a fair amount of work on SP's side to get it there. I've made a number of suggestions to them already: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55673.msg1897388#msg1897388
They've already changed the license agreement and started a dialogue with me about it, so they're at least listening.
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 17 November 2015, 01:59:44
PMK can get caps into people faster but not per drop. Over time, they hope to build up enough sets to stock that they have ready availability of many sets for immediate purchase.
For new sets, however? That's a much different story. Oobly touched on this in the PMK thread but they're likely only to shave off a small portion of the time of a set's pre-production life. The vast majority of time for a set is in two places. The first is the community-based interest check phase where all facets of the set are gone over and adjustments made prior to submission. The second is simply waiting for a production slot window, production, shipping, and delivery. The time being shaven is the pre-order phase and possibly the double shipping as they would ship straight to individuals.
From my very long post:
"So if two sets get an IC started at the same time on GH, the one going through MD can get the production slot reserved sooner and thus will end up in your hands quicker."
SP won't reserve a production slot until after the "IC"/preorder stage, whereas MD reserves a slot before the set goes up as a GB. Another thing that possibly makes the PMK version slower is the fact that you can only buy the set once it goes up on their store and they may only put it up once production is complete, so you'd have to order on the same day it goes up to get it quickly.
MD is just less hassle for people participating in GB's and even for designers, since they have to keep everyone informed of the set status and let people know when it goes up for sale. With MD or traditional systems, you order it once and then you're done.
That said, I do think that PMK has the potential to be the most awesome GB system ever, but it requires some big changes and a fair amount of work on SP's side to get it there. I've made a number of suggestions to them already: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55673.msg1897388#msg1897388
They've already changed the license agreement and started a dialogue with me about it, so they're at least listening.
Ahh, I wasn't aware of the workings of MD and how they were handling things. It's smart on the part of MD to get the slot early. If that is the case, it sounds like there's even less time savings than I was originally looking at.
The PMK system does have potential, I agree. In its current state, it's still a good system for reruns or smaller runs. It still needs more work to be the go-to site for designers as has been noted here and in the SP thread.
I recall your suggestions. I believe we've got a lot of agreement there. There were some good points made in that discussion. I was also pleasantly surprised with the reply you received from SP on a few points. It's good to see that they're listening. I just hope they're increasing tooling sufficiently. Given the lineup of SA profile sets that are slated for production and those upcoming sets, they're going to continue to be busy after Carbon and Danger Zone for some time, potentially.
Post by: zslane on Tue, 17 November 2015, 16:05:03
SP is going to be very busy for a long time.
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Tue, 17 November 2015, 16:42:19
Quote
I just hope they're increasing tooling sufficiently. Given the lineup of SA profile sets that are slated for production and those upcoming sets, they're going to continue to be busy after Carbon and Danger Zone for some time, potentially.The funny thing is, even if PMK worked and all the current GBs were on there, they wouldnt be able to reprint anything for a year or so. I think the real strength from PMK will be in the lulls for certain profiles. A DCS or DSA repress right now would keep that tooling busy while not impairing other group buys.
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 17 November 2015, 19:09:48
...and Troubled Minds...and Round 5a...and Nantucket Selectric... and...
SP is going to be very busy for a long time.
Yeah, they're just finishing Carbon and Danger Zone is up next. Then they've got the ones you just mentioned along with Dasher/Dancer, Dusk, Earfbound, Penumbra round 2, Retroblight, and Classic Space (which includes new legends).
Honestly, if even some of those make it through to successful group buys, SP is looking to remain busy through 2016. With the new fonts for SA, that might further encourage use of that profile for other additional sets.
As for how busy they'll be, it honestly depends on what level of additional tooling they're talking about. I'm curious to hear more about what additions have been made to their production capacity.
Reruns on non-SA profiles could be a potential way to go but given both profiles are out of style at the moment, I'm not sure there's going to be large amounts of traction there. For any DCS-type profile I think people are focusing on other vendors while DSA is mostly pushed aside at the moment.
Honestly, I'd love it if SP were to reconsider the SS profile. It could prove positive with the community and offer a bit of variety as most everyone looking to SP right now seem to be focused on SA. They've previously stated, at least from reading the DT Workshop Dasher thread, that they've retired the profile due to, IIRC, issues with the molds. It would be a high cost to attempt to get new molds so it would be no easy matter. Pity as I'm curious about that profile.
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 18 November 2015, 05:13:13
Gateron and JTK have full queues, so the wait with them will most likely be similar to SA profile. Devlin is in discussions with UKKeycaps, but apparently things are moving very slowly, so they're not yet an option either. I really hope they do get their stuff in order, though, since I think their "Q" profile is nicer than DSA and would suit most of the same use cases.
Anyhow, the fully utilised SA profile tooling makes a lot of the points in this thread moot for the time that they're so busy. They don't have time to do more runs for older sets. What they are trying to do, though, is to add extra sets to the current production run if the designer gives permission, which they will then put up for sale on the store. It's a lot easier to produce a few extra sets while the tooling is set up for it than to set it up for the set in between other designs being run.
For some sets this is a good option, since it caters to those who "missed" the main GB and maybe this is all that's needed. I think that if the number of extras is in direct proportion to the number of orders (percentage-based), it could work out well for all parties.
And with the changes to the license agreement, I think more designers will be willing to allow SP to do this.
The way I see it, SP has two options, depending on how interested they are in "cutting out the middle man" and essentially running GB's directly on their site. The way I see it, with the current version they're aiming for some kind of half-arsed middle ground, which just won't work.
If they fully commit to it, they could make it the best GB system with lowest prices, fastest turnaround time and best long term set availability. But it will require big changes and a lot of work. It still won't generate the numbers MD does, though, so sets will probably still end up being more "limited edition" there, contrary to the "always available" promise that their concept seems to offer.
On the other hand, they could just drop the whole submissions, voting / IC section and let things run the way they do, with external GB systems and the designer decides about running extras which they put up on their store.
Either way they go, if they happen to have some downtime coming up for their tooling, they could put up a "make more of this set" poll for sets where the designer has agreed to let them make more, so they make more of whatever the community want most.
Honestly, though.. I think running sets just once without extras is best, but that's because I have more of a designer and collector mentality. You design a special set based on a particular theme, people who participate in the collaborative IC process help improve the design until you have something really nice, that appeals to many people. Then you allow as many people to order it that want it, you make it and send it out and.. that's it. Move on to the next design. There are more designs coming all the time and designer's don't like to get stuck with managing an "old" design. As an example, during the time it's taken to develop Classic Space so far, I've come up with concepts for three more great sets - actually five if you include the font fundraiser kit and unique test set design, and their "greatness" is of course very subjective ;D -, which should appeal to similar people.
That also brings up another unexpected thought. I'd be okay with SP making more of some of my designs, but not others... So I'd be happy to sign the license for some, but not all my sets. The ones I don't want to license are more limited edition / special / collector's type of designs with a lot of very custom elements, though, so the appeal will be more limited, too.
Another interesting point is that Classic Space will be using a different finish on the majority of caps (gloss) and completely new legend molds, which may allow it to run more in parallel with other SA sets since they're using different molds, but I've yet to confirm this with SP. It's a fair way off, anyway, with the font initiative needing to be completed first.
Many designers aren't aware of all the very interesting capabilities SP has for some of their profiles and I'm compiling a document detailing these. Even the profile information PDF's that they have up on their site are out of date and contain a number of incorrect items of information. Along with my legend specifications document, that should provide designers with a better starting point than currently and should reduce the number of both uninformed designs going up as IC's and irritating, repetitive requests from prospective designers to Melissa. I'd like to extend the documents to include GMK, JTK, BSP, Devlin and Gateron capabilities and specifications, too, but I'm starting with SP since I have an active communication channel with them.
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 11:44:48
I'm hoping other producers can step up as well. Tai Hao and Vortex are already on MassDrop quite regularly. Were they to step into the world of custom group buys (even just for colors only to start), that would certainly give some additional options for manufacturer choices on OEM profile.
There are many options for them to improve the system to get a realistic idea of quantity for a rerun. I think their wishlist is not the best choice as you can simply add it and forget about it. By the time another run is done, the person may have already picked up the set via some other means or lost interest and moved on. A backorder system wouldn't be bad nor would the rerun vote system.
Good news on the updated SP info. That will certainly help out others.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 11:46:09
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 18 November 2015, 12:30:22
PBT sucksBut HHKB has PBT caps :eek:
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 12:55:50
PBT sucks
Blasphemy! Smite the heathen! :P ;)
Though, honestly, it would give more options for caps and provides additional capacity. Probably not a bad thing in the long run were it to come to fruition.
Post by: zslane on Wed, 18 November 2015, 14:36:03
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the sets that I feel have that classic, timeless quality are the sets that were based off of vintage keyboards from the past, as opposed to sets that were based on some pop culture theme. Dolch, Triumph Adler, Honeywell, and Granite are the best examples I can think of. I'd like to think Dasher could be part of that list someday, but its colorway may be too unconventional (the "SA Retro problem"). I kind of feel we need a charcoal gray SA set and a beige/brown SA set to round out the vintage colorways.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 14:44:40
PBT sucksBut HHKB has PBT caps :eek:
If someone made nice, thick double shot ABS caps for the HHKB, I would be all over it.
Yes, I use dyesub PBT caps on my HHKB and Model F/Ms, because I have no alternative. :)
Post by: zslane on Wed, 18 November 2015, 14:56:41
PBT sucksBut HHKB has PBT caps :eek:
If someone made nice, thick double shot ABS caps for the HHKB, I would be all over it.
Yes, I use dyesub PBT caps on my HHKB and Model F/Ms, because I have no alternative. :)
If by "for the HHKB" you also mean to imply "for Topre switches", then I am with you. The greatest barrier to me using Topre boards is the inability to put my SA keycaps on them. And I don't see any feasible solution on the horizon.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 15:03:35
PBT sucksBut HHKB has PBT caps :eek:
If someone made nice, thick double shot ABS caps for the HHKB, I would be all over it.
Yes, I use dyesub PBT caps on my HHKB and Model F/Ms, because I have no alternative. :)
If by "for the HHKB" you also mean to imply "for Topre switches", then I am with you. The greatest barrier to me using Topre boards is the inability to put my SA keycaps on them. And I don't see any feasible solution on the horizon.
Sure, "for Topre sliders" is fine. SP has mounts for several stems, including MX and Alps, but no Topre. Maybe there is a patent issue? Whatever the reason, it's a shame, really.
Post by: zslane on Wed, 18 November 2015, 16:03:14
However, a Chinese manufacturer may (soon?) arise who has no such qualms about the cost of tooling nor the inviolability of Japanese patents.
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 16:16:53
I look forward to a new phenomenon: that of the "casual designer". And by casual I don't mean someone who puts minimal effort into their designs. I mean someone who creates colorways/designs that are classic and timeless and never go permenantly out of stock. The kind of designs that appeal to the "casual buyer". The current manufacturing landscape might not support this right now, but perhaps that will change in time.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the sets that I feel have that classic, timeless quality are the sets that were based off of vintage keyboards from the past, as opposed to sets that were based on some pop culture theme. Dolch, Triumph Adler, Honeywell, and Granite are the best examples I can think of. I'd like to think Dasher could be part of that list someday, but its colorway may be too unconventional (the "SA Retro problem"). I kind of feel we need a charcoal gray SA set and a beige/brown SA set to round out the vintage colorways.
Retroblight is looking to fix the beige/brown along with another round of Penumbra. Something like Granite would likely be the gray fix needed for SA. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen it yet. MassDrop polls certainly haven't quite had enough of Granite just yet.
I tend to favor the more colorful sets. Picked up a royal blue basic ABS doubleshot set off MD and have the gray/sky blue set that came with my Ducky. I've ordered Troubled Minds, will definitely get the Dasher/Dancer sets, and may pick up Manly Unicorn as well. I may eventually swing toward the classic sets but for now I'm pleased with a lot of colorful options.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 16:23:07
Post by: rpeterclark on Wed, 18 November 2015, 16:31:49
I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html
Post by: Waateva on Wed, 18 November 2015, 16:48:57
I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html
2blue4me
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 17:07:42
I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html
2blue4me
Guess you won't like my all blue set concept.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 17:39:13
Nice one. Shame I hadn't seen it before now, but I guess it's not too late.I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html
I hope it's sculpted profile rather than uniform row 3. Uniform row 4 would be awesome, but convincing SP to make it might be a challenge.
Post by: zslane on Wed, 18 November 2015, 18:21:08
And the problem with Retroblight is that the cream-colored alphas may be too light for what I'm thinking of. And they are just alphas. And there's no brown.
Re: SA Dasher/Dancer row profile: the proposed profile is fully sculptured 1-1-2-3-4-3.
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 18:36:13
Actually, we don't need Granite for a vintage-y medium SA gray, we have Honeywell GPA for that. What we don't have is a charcoal (i.e., really dark) gray set for SA. The other problem with Granite is that you can't get light gray mods or dark gray alphas. But if we had a full dark gray (GB or GX) set comparable to Honey's full-range GPA offerings, then we'd have alphas, mods, and everything in between in white, medium gray, dark gray, and black.
And the problem with Retroblight is that the cream-colored alphas may be too light for what I'm thinking of. And they are just alphas. And there's no brown.
Re: SA Dasher/Dancer row profile: the proposed profile is fully sculptured 1-1-2-3-4-3.
I gotcha. I suspect those sets will eventually make their way through the system. Classic and retro inspired sets seem to have a pretty decent following so it's likely we'll see something along those lines in the future. I think right now there's a mix of heavily white-focused alphas with colorful modifiers on some sets while others are trying to explore alternative color arrangements that move away from the traditional classic black/beige/gray alpha caps as well as white caps.
On Retroblight, hmmm. Are you thinking more beige caps with brown? There's also some brown caps with white that I've seen on some older Burroughs keyboards. We could probably burn through some of the pics on DT from those old beam spring and hall effect boards for some classic set inspirations.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 18:58:51
Post by: zslane on Wed, 18 November 2015, 19:05:18
Are you thinking more beige caps with brown? There's also some brown caps with white that I've seen on some older Burroughs keyboards. We could probably burn through some of the pics on DT from those old beam spring and hall effect boards for some classic set inspirations.
To be honest I don't have any one specific vintage keyboard in mind. However, a beige like seen in the Visual terminal combined with the brown of the Apple Lisa is sort of what I am thinking of. Or even just the two brown tones of the Lisa keyboard (color-balanced as in the photo). Probably.
(http://i.imgur.com/7dclX0P.jpg)
(http://deskthority.net/resources/apple-lisa-keyboard-keyboard-top/25084)
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 19:47:00
I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...
Possibly one of the 7-Bit rounds? Couldn't find anything on Keypuller.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 20:22:06
(http://i.imgur.com/mB0HVwU.jpg)
Image credit: Scubaste
Post by: njbair on Wed, 18 November 2015, 21:23:30
I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...Troll level: expert
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 21:26:58
;)I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...Troll level: expert
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 18 November 2015, 23:20:22
Hack'd By Geeks by CarpeKeyboards via [CTRL]ALTShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/mB0HVwU.jpg)
Image credit: Scubaste
Has orange. Doesn't count :P
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 23:32:42
Post by: zslane on Thu, 19 November 2015, 01:18:39
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 19 November 2015, 03:05:25
And like I said before: If the set design you desire doesn't exist, why not make it yourself and run a GB (after Dasher / Dancer)?
The Novatouch is a Topre with MX sliders. There are cheap boards with Topre compatible MX sliders like the Noppoo and Royal Kludge boards. JTK makes Topre MX sliders that were included in their debut GB. Any of the last three options will fit a full size Realforce. This is the direction the manufacturers are going, so I don't think there's any need to further segment the community by trying to get more Topre slider caps made. Alps is a different story, since the Alps switches don't have room inside the switch for MX stems, so you HAVE to use Alps stems.
I honestly feel a bit like you are simply complaining about the things you want, expecting people to hand them to you on a plate, ie 'entitlement', but I also know you are doing something about it (at least one of them) with your Dasher / Dancer set, so your posts here are a little confusing to me.
There are many 'factions' in this community, with different tastes and goals, so I'm all for having more set options. Maybe it is best that the "classic colourway sets" get run only through PMK, since they're not like the majority of designs that are based on a theme and include a lot more design work. They'd probably have a "slow, but steady" stream of orders and would suit being on the PMK store, especially if they don't have any child kits, or just the basics (numpad and ISO).
I do plan to give the rights to SP to continue to make my brown/beige design after the initial GB, since although it's a "themed" set with novelties, it's also a good general set with colours that suit a large number of boards and can be used without the novelties as simply a nice set that would be at home in any place you'd find a typewriter :)
Classic Space is most likely going to be a one-off, single GB run, as the design is only complete with the custom caps and novelties and we want to keep it more of a collector's item.
Post by: zslane on Thu, 19 November 2015, 13:19:11
If you think I feel "entitled" to them, or that I expect the world to hand me anything on a proverbial platter, then I would say you are reading way too much into my online ramblings. At most, I am trying to encourage designers with sets like Dolch or Honeywell in mind to re-consider any plans they might have for making them limited edition, single-run sets.
Post by: Binge on Thu, 19 November 2015, 13:23:27
For the new people - Group buys seem limited because the order size sets the number of products produced. This means all GBs will be limited to a degree. If a GB organizer wishes to run something ONCE and keep it from being produced after the fact then it is in their right as the designer/organizer. Quit your *****ing.
For people who are entrenched members of any community with group buys of custom products - Dafuq? You should know better.
Post by: Bromono on Thu, 19 November 2015, 13:27:38
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 19 November 2015, 14:05:32
Reruns sans novelties are a good potential (assuming they're not already handled via the PMK system).
If I ever manage to get a successful set up, PMK will have full access to it so I don't have to worry about it and can let them deal with it while I move on.
All good.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 19 November 2015, 16:04:11
Can't believe this thread is still alive.
For the new people - Group buys seem limited because the order size sets the number of products produced. This means all GBs will be limited to a degree. If a GB organizer wishes to run something ONCE and keep it from being produced after the fact then it is in their right as the designer/organizer. Quit your *****ing.
For people who are entrenched members of any community with group buys of custom products - Dafuq? You should know better.
(http://i.imgur.com/8ZYYkUv.gif)
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 20 November 2015, 02:58:28
Can't believe this thread is still alive.
For the new people - Group buys seem limited because the order size sets the number of products produced. This means all GBs will be limited to a degree. If a GB organizer wishes to run something ONCE and keep it from being produced after the fact then it is in their right as the designer/organizer. Quit your *****ing.
For people who are entrenched members of any community with group buys of custom products - Dafuq? You should know better.
:D