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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: wordfool on Tue, 17 November 2009, 14:37:40
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Hello everyone :tea:
I've decided to get a replacement (or should I say supplement) for my trusty M13 because I often need a quieter board and I'd like to actually use the Windows keys (now I have Win7) without having to remap anything.
So with the help of all you folks here I've narrowed it down to a Brown Cherry keyboard (Filco) or a Topre Realforce. What I'm trying to decide is which might be better suited to my typing style. It sounds like they both need about the same force to register a keypress, but I'm worried that because this force is considerably less than required on my M13 I'll end up craving some form -- any form -- of tactile feedback. Which of them is gonna give me more feedback, or is the feedback from each so different that it's hard to compare?
For the record, I'm a medium-fast typer who makes lot of typos (but have trained Word to fix most of them) and have pretty big, clunky hands that tend to lightly bottom out the keys on my M13. And I won't be using this board for gaming.
Oh, and money's no object... meant in the sense that I'm a writer/journalist by trade, so spending $200 on a keyboard seems reasonable to me (and I can write it off against taxes).
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brown feels lighter, but topre is smoother
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so the Topre requires more force to register? That sounds like it might be better for me since I'm used to an M13 and apparently have "heavy" fingers.
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not by much at all, they will probably both seem ULTRALIGHT to you
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You'd probably be better off with a Cherry MX clear switch keyboard, such as the tactile Deck.
Or you could get an Endurapro from Unicomp, which is basically the same thing as you have with Windows keys.
Coming from buckling springs, Cherry Browns do not feel tactile.
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Both of them are meant to offer 45g of resistance, which is a good deal less than what your M13 would provide (65-70g).
I don't own either one (would like to get a HHKB at one point though) but the general consensus around here is that Browns have better tactility, but the Topres are smoother and are very pleasant to type on for extended periods. It's generally acknowledged that the Realforce keyboards are better built than Filcos, but not necessarily twice as better considering that they are twice the price. This is obviously the price you pay when you get into high products in anything...
I wouldn't worry about bottoming out - once you get used to the lighter switched, you'll fly on them.
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im not the only one who cannot help bottoming out the topre switches
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maybe, but with some practice I can bottom out lightly on the cherry browns. At first I was bottoming hard. It takes a bit, but you adjust and don't use as much force to press the key.
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If not for the sound issue I'd happily get a Unicomp but, alas, I need a quieter keyboard at times (I'll be keeping the M13, however).
I've not read much about the Cherry White/Clear switches, but I did see a few reviews in other places of the Deck keyboards and both the linear and tactile versions generally seem to be rated lower for typing that the Filco range. The backlighting is kinda cool but ultimately a bit pointless to this non-gamer (and probably why they cost $170).
I'll look into the Clear/white switches some more.
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According to ripster, an alternative to the Cherry clears would be ALPS blacks which you can get in the Dell AT-101W or in the Filco Zero. I haven't used the Cherry clears myself, but, IIRC, ripster said they felt pretty similar. I will say, though, that the black ALPS are quite a bit louder than the Cherry browns for a variety of reasons. Both my Cherry G80-3000 and my Filco are about as loud as a rubber dome 'board with the Cherry being a little quieter.
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wow, i just now got it...
italian stallion
not that i was ever trying to decrypt it
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wow, i just now got it...
italian stallion
not that i was ever trying to decrypt it
The search button is your friend... http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=83364&postcount=32
BTW, I'm a girl.
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The search button is your friend... http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=83364&postcount=32
BTW, I'm a girl.
no, i didnt use the search button to find out what your name meant, or your childhood history... and you're not a girl. this is the internet.
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Don't worry, I had forgotten about that thread. That thing got buried a long time ago. It might be good to resurrect it seeing how many new members we have.
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The Deck seems to be the only option for the white switches, so I guess that's a dead end. I'd get a Realforce to try out except I can't help believing it's just a glorified rubber-dome keyboard, distantly related the crapola on sale at my local OfficeMax (and $230 is overboard for experimentation). The Filco Zero looks like it's only availabe in tenkeyless, and unless a numberpad can be daisychained I'm gonna need a 104 key.
So it is true what they say -- there really is nothing like a buckling spring keyboard. Is there such a thing as a quiet buckling spring board? Or does the only solution involve a grease gun? Maybe I'll try a Filco FKB104M/EB first and simply use it to brain someone out of frustration if I don't like it :boxing:
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makes me wish i still had the box around for my basically-new FKB104M/EB so that i could sell it [soon]. its not that i dont like it, i just really wish i had the tenkeyless version. the question then becomes, could i really pay $120+shipping for it?
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If you want a keyboard that requires little force but has tactile feedback, you might want to look into getting a keyboard with complicated White ALPS keyswitches such as a Northgate Omnikey.
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NORTHGATE-OMNIKEY-102-KEYBOARD_W0QQitemZ290370876257QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item439b73f361 (http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NORTHGATE-OMNIKEY-102-KEYBOARD_W0QQitemZ290370876257QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item439b73f361)
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I might be up for buying that Majestouch off you :)
But first I have to look into the ALPS switch keyboards to see if they might be an option or decide whether to close my eyes, swallow hard, and buy a Realforce (I have to say that the black lettering on black keys of the Realforce does look kule).
How noisy is something like the Northgate?
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Nothing is as noisy as a Model M, except for the Model F which is louder.
What about a Blue Cherry keyboard? They're quite pleasant to type on, and somewhat quieter than an IBM (although by no means a quiet keyboard).
As far as I know, the Alps are louder than the Blue Cherrys.
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honestly i dont think either is going to feel anything like a buckling sping, you should be prepared for a complete change
i have heard good and bad things about the alps, havent used one yet myself, but i have never heard that they are quiet
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I have a keyboard with the same switches as a Northgate and the swieches definitely have an audible click, but their action is much lighter than that of a Model M. If you want to get a cheaper keyboard with complicated white alps, I'd recommend this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Focus-Electronics-Clicky-Keyboard-FK-6000-Missing-1-Key_W0QQitemZ200399892157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea8c3aebd (http://cgi.ebay.com/Focus-Electronics-Clicky-Keyboard-FK-6000-Missing-1-Key_W0QQitemZ200399892157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea8c3aebd)
It's missing an arrow key so I definitely wouldn't offer $30 for it, but it's not hard to find keycaps for Alps keyswitches.
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What about a Blue Cherry keyboard? They're quite pleasant to type on, and somewhat quieter than an IBM (although by no means a quiet keyboard).
That was my first thought, but then I listened to ripster's recordings and decided the blues were more or less as loud as the M, just a slightly different (more annoying?) sound -- a sharper "click" to the M's "clack", although also less "poing" than the M.
If they really are quieter overall then I might go for a cherry blue (except elitekeyboards is currently ou of stock). My problem with the M13 noise is related to waking people up when I pull late nighters and not being able to hear someone on the phone properly when I'm transcribing due to the clackety racket of the keyboard.
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That was my first thought, but then I listened to ripster's recordings and decided the blues were more or less as loud as the M, just a slightly different (more annoying?) sound -- a sharper "click" to the M's "clack", although also less "poing" than the M.
If they really are quieter overall then I might go for a cherry blue (except elitekeyboards is currently ou of stock). My problem with the M13 noise is related to waking people up when I pull late nighters and not being able to hear someone on the phone properly when I'm transcribing due to the clackety racket of the keyboard.
You could try a greased Model M? If you search "Endurapro Grease" and look for Wellington's Endurapro mod, you should find recordings of it. You can cut down the noise and almost eliminate the ping without much reduction of tactility.
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I have a keyboard with the same switches as a Northgate and the swieches definitely have an audible click, but their action is much lighter than that of a Model M. If you want to get a cheaper keyboard with complicated white alps, I'd recommend this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Focus-Electronics-Clicky-Keyboard-FK-6000-Missing-1-Key_W0QQitemZ200399892157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea8c3aebd (http://cgi.ebay.com/Focus-Electronics-Clicky-Keyboard-FK-6000-Missing-1-Key_W0QQitemZ200399892157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea8c3aebd)
It's missing an arrow key so I definitely wouldn't offer $30 for it, but it's not hard to find keycaps for Alps keyswitches.
those are not alps switches. they look like smk click tactiles, which aren't bad. they're a bit lighter and crisper than alps click tactiles.
i find the brown cherries to be a bit unsatisfying to type on, but that's probably because i like noisy tactile switches.
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So now you've all got me thinking that Cherry Blues are actually not going to be as noisy overall as my trusty black M13. Can anyone chime in on that? All I need is a keyboard that's perhaps 25% quieter than my M13 overall, and a "clickety-click" noise is certainly going to be better than the "clackety-clack" noise of the M.
The blues need about 10g more force than the browns to register, right?
I'm also wondering if the Filco blues sound different to the Scorpius or Das blues -- I listened to a youtube review of the scorpius and it sounded reasonable.
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I've got to find myself some cheap old keyboard with blue Cherry switches so I can try them someday.
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A little food for thought. Here is a force graph for a bunch of different switches:
From the Topre wiki page (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4595&d=1253159601)
What you will note is how sharp the tactile bump is in the Buckling Spring (purple line) and that is what really make it unique. It also makes it a very satisfying typing experience.
On the other end you have the Topre(lite blue line) with a shallow tactile point but with a very smooth action. For me it is that smoothness and the fact that you don't have to bottom it out for a key to register that make it unique. And lets not forget the build quality you are going to get when buying a Realforce board.
In the middle you have the Cherry brown(brown line) and the very first thing I notice is how rough the force graph is for it. After typing on both a BS board (Model M space saver) and a Topre (a bunch of them) the browns are not really a satisfying typing experience for me. Don't get me wrong they are OK but just not great.
Personally I prefer the Topre/Realforce over a BS but just barely then the browns. If I had to pick another click switch it would be white Alps. The blue cherry switches produce a click that is to high of a pitch that just gets on my nerves over time. The Black Alps loose out just because I already have a quite board in either the Topre or the browns.
Any ways just my 2 cents.
EDIT: Forgot to recommend which to get. Well I'm very biased and prefer the Topre but in all reality it is up to you. All I can do is try to supply information to help you make that decision for yourself. But contrary to what others have said if you need a quite board stay away from the blues.
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interesting to see all the graphs on top of each other,
also nice to hear some positive aspects for all these different switches i am accumulating and will soon use. once i get that G80-3000, my collection will be COMPLETE (for the mean time)
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Thanks for the graph... but darn it there's nothing for the cherry blues. I presume the line will look as rough as the browns. The alps does seem to have a nice sharp bump, but alps boards appear to be noisier than the cherry blues from what I can tell, and noise is a deal killer for me. The Topre line suggests the keys will be really easy to bottom out since after the hump there's basically no resistance. Thats' the nice thing about the BS keys -- after registering the click they feel like they have a decent suspension system that lessens the impact if I do bottom them out.
Now you have me wondering if the Fukka (faux-alps) keys on the filco tenkeyless might be worth trying... more research for me.
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i still don't feel any bump, and i dont see where the graph shows it either. sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look! we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"
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sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look! we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"
That's what I can't get past, either. $250 for a basic-looking keyboard just seems like overkill, even if the switches were gold plated. Just seems like a distant cousin to $10 OfficeMax specials. And I'm someone who generally feels good about spending way too much money on geeky things!
So now I have to decide between the fukka and cherry blue switches, both of which might not be "quiet" but seem to be quieter than a BS keyboard.
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sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look! we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"
I can understand how that might be your initial impression upon typing on a Topre key switch board. I had the same first impression.
But if you still feel that way after typing on the Topre keyboards after a couple of days, you've just wasted $250 or $300. I have not found any other switch as comfortable to type on for extended periods of time. Although they are not my favourite keyboards, I would be hard pressed to give up my HHKB Pro 2 and Realforce 87U.
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The Deck seems to be the only option for the white switches, so I guess that's a dead end.
The Deck Legend is a nice board man. What's yer beef with it?
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The Deck Legend is a nice board man. What's yer beef with it?
It's expensive and superfluously backlit, for one.
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Thanks for the graph... but darn it there's nothing for the cherry blues. I presume the line will look as rough as the browns. The alps does seem to have a nice sharp bump, but alps boards appear to be noisier than the cherry blues from what I can tell, and noise is a deal killer for me. The Topre line suggests the keys will be really easy to bottom out since after the hump there's basically no resistance. Thats' the nice thing about the BS keys -- after registering the click they feel like they have a decent suspension system that lessens the impact if I do bottom them out.
Now you have me wondering if the Fukka (faux-alps) keys on the filco tenkeyless might be worth trying... more research for me.
Very true the Topre's are easy to bottom out same as the Cherry browns and blues. But when you do bottom them out they have a nice soft landing with a solid feel.
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i still don't feel any bump, and i dont see where the graph shows it either. sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look! we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"
I can understand how that might be your initial impression upon typing on a Topre key switch board. I had the same first impression.
But if you still feel that way after typing on the Topre keyboards after a couple of days, you've just wasted $250 or $300. I have not found any other switch as comfortable to type on for extended periods of time. Although they are not my favourite keyboards, I would be hard pressed to give up my HHKB Pro 2 and Realforce 87U.
That's what I can't get past, either. $250 for a basic-looking keyboard just seems like overkill, even if the switches were gold plated. Just seems like a distant cousin to $10 OfficeMax specials. And I'm someone who generally feels good about spending way too much money on geeky things!
The Topre boards are by no means like a $10 OfficeMax special. I know everyone wants to make that comparison but their is really no comparison at all. Take a look at this disassembly of a KeyTronic (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6499) keyboard which is one of the better rubber dome boards out there. Then take a look at HHKB Pro 2 Exposed (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6902) and Realforce 87U Opened Up (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697) and for an explanation of how the switch works see Topre/Realforce wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre). Don't get me wrong a Topre is not for everyone but I do believe you are getting what you pay for. I also agree with maxlugar in that you really have to type on them a bit before you really appreciate the design.
So now I have to decide between the fukka and cherry blue switches, both of which might not be "quiet" but seem to be quieter than a BS keyboard.
I don't think either are really any quiter than a BS board but if you really want that very distinctive tactile bump and the noise that goes with it go for one of those two switch types but if you really want a quit board you can't go wrong with a Topre or a brown cherry. But then again most people that really love the BS are not really satisfied with anything other than a BS.
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I don't think either are really any quiter than a BS board but if you really want that very distinctive tactile bump and the noise that goes with it go for one of those two switch types but if you really want a quit board you can't go wrong with a Topre or a brown cherry. But then again most people that really love the BS are not really satisfied with anything other than a BS.
I was under the impression that the Cherry browns have less of a tactile bump than the blues, even disregarding the noise, because they require less force. The alps also have a force that's closer to the BS. The Realforce keyboard has decent enough force on paper for some of the keys, but sounds way too light for others, which is why I've pushed it down my list.
Basically the noise of a keypress does nothing for me since there's so much clattering resonance in my M13 that I can't even make out each individual click when typing fast. I would however like something quieter than a BS. Maybe I'll get a cherry blue and spray expanding foam into each keycap to deaden the sound :smile:
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Maybe I'll get a cherry blue and spray expanding foam into each keycap to deaden the sound :smile:
Get a Cherry G80-3000 with blues. It should be pretty quiet compared to other blue Cherry 'boards. The brown version is almost silent.
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You may also have to watch out for the extra mass changing the key feel, too.
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i was kidding about the topre joke thing. it is much better than a real membrane.
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you guys should set up a lending library of keyboards so us n00bs can all discover what a $250 keyboard feels like. I mean it's not like you don't all have dozens of unused keyboards lying around at any one time :smile:
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I think someone did this a long time ago with ALPS. It wouldn't be a bad idea.
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I think it was sold, actually, but yeah, that's always a risk lending 'boards out. I certainly wouldn't mind if somebody wanted to come visit me and check out one of my 'boards, but I would feel a little uneasy about sending it away, in general. You could have some sort of deposit to cover the expense should someone decide to pilfer it.
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it wouldn't be perfect to actually know what it would be like to TYPE on, but i have previously envisioned a basic piece of wood (idea from that number row/symbol thing) with the key switches (one of each) uselessly glued to it, with keycaps
so you wouldn't get the full experience per se, but it would just be like 10 individual switches, and you could sit there and push each one with one finger with the device laid on a desk. it would be cheaper in case it didn't get passed on to the next person.
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Basically the noise of a keypress does nothing for me since there's so much clattering resonance in my M13 that I can't even make out each individual click when typing fast. I would however like something quieter than a BS. Maybe I'll get a cherry blue and spray expanding foam into each keycap to deaden the sound :smile:
The problem with that is that the space under the key needs to be there so the key will go around the switch as you depress it. Now what may be possible and could reduce the sound some is to get a non plate mounted blue cherry board and put the foam around the switches. But I would use something a little denser than the expanding foam spray because I not sure that it would really absorb much of the noise.
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It's expensive and superfluously backlit, for one.
None of these nice mechanical switch boards are inexpensive, so one has to be willing to spend. To say the delicious backlighting on the Deck is superfluous is just crazy talk. CRAZY. It is geek sheik supreme. You can also turn off the backlighting altogether at will. If you want a good Cherry Clear board, the Deck will not disappoint. I'm not exactly in love with these switches myself (and plan on buying from the next batch of Cherry Blue Filco 104 boards EliteKeyboards gets in), but the Deck is a very solid board. In fact, if it had Cherry Blues, I would not even bother trying Filco at all.
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it's expensive even for what it is,
and the backlighting is unnecessary (and doesn't even look cool because of the awful font... fix that and id at least say it looks neat)
then again, if they changed the font, ever so slightly fixed the layout, offered the compact one with an opaque casing (without buying it separately), then i probably would want one.
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Yeah, I do have to admit the font is bad. But, it still looks cool. Eye of the beholder, I suppose. If by layout, you mean the FN key being annoyingly located next to the spacebar, I do agree there.
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theres a lot about the layout that is pretty absurd. the 1 key is the worst.
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it wouldn't be perfect to actually know what it would be like to TYPE on, but i have previously envisioned a basic piece of wood (idea from that number row/symbol thing) with the key switches (one of each) uselessly glued to it, with keycaps
I'd be up for that. A single board with, say, five each of cherry browns and blues, alps white and black, topre and BS. Problem is that a big chunk of wood might cost a bit much to mail each time.
Alternatively, anyone in San Francisco got cherry blue, alps and topre 'boards I could try?!
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Oh you must be referring to the 82 key. Yeah that's a mess. I'm using the 105 key board.
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no, im saying just ONE of each key, maybe one or two rows only, something that would fit in a $5 flat rate box.
about to try to find a picture of my inspiration, hold on
EDIT couldnt find it, so use imagination:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)
or you could go for a whitman's sampler configuration, especially since it IS a sampler:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SpcpuVCA3PzuUM:http://www.techonthenet.com/clipart/keyboard/images/esc_key.png)
its like how i was making all these AWESOME little key switch icons, to use in my signature as "have-its", but then realized i cant have images in my signature:
i had made a few more, but stopped resizing (i worked so hard on tiny details that don't show up at sig-icon size) and bordering them when i found out the bad news.
i wanted them to be uniformly based on colorized versions of technical drawings. never found one for alps.
BUT THE POINT IS the whole thing is very cheap to ship, and very inexpensive if someone does not follow through. plus with a nice piece of wood and good craftsmanship it would be a nice little desk ornament/paperweight. not possible to get the typing experience, you won't even know if the key actually registers, but i think you could get the idea well enough to know whether you want to buy one or not.
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Sounds perfect. Just hurry before I buy every type of keyboard under the sun!
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i think the whole thing could be fit inside of an altoids tin if you were really handy. maybe not as artsy as the block of wood, but a neat idea in itself
EDIT and for the keycaps, what about getting some of the colorful cherry caps, so that a C key would be used for all the cherry switches, but a blue, brown, black, white (yes), red keycap to denote the colors... then of course a T for Topre, B for BS, A for Alps, etc...
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i think the whole thing could be fit inside of an altoids tin if you were really handy. maybe not as artsy as the block of wood, but a neat idea in itself
A small USPS flat rate Priority box would be a good template size-wise
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Making a key sampler? That sounds like a neat idea.
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So I don't spend the next three weeks pulling my hair out trying to decide, I need a neat summary of opinons that I can average out. So without further ado, I created a little test to occupy anyone with time on their hands -- how would you good folks rate the following four keyboards in terms of tactility (is that a word?) and ability to wake someone sleeping in the next room when typing 100wpm. Please only score those keyboards you have had experience with.
The tactile scale (which is about resistance curve only, not audible clicks) goes from 1 to 5, with 1 being a bad membrane keyboard with the membrane apparently made of fresh poo and 5 being a Model M with titanium springs that gives you a precise sense of when a keystroke has registered. The noise scale goes from 1 (unlikely to wake an insomniac lightly dozing next to you) up to 5 (likely to wake a narcoleptic asleep on the street) and is the total noise of the 'board, including switch clicks, bottoming out, topping out, and case resonance. I'd rate the Model M a 4.5-5 on that scale (although I haven't tested in on my local narcoleptics).
And the contenders:
Filco Brown Cherry
Filco Blue Cherry
Realforce Topre 104
Filco Zero Fukka
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well it's a start. I'll put that in my spreadsheet
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wait, tactility or force? the model m wins because it's harder to push down?
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I'll edit my notes... tactility as in giving you the best sense of when a keystroke has actually registered (the Model M being close to perfect due to its very sharp drop in resistance after the hump)
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here's what I've sorta deduced from a couple days on these boards and listening to way too many youtube clips:
Tactility -- filco brown 3, topre 2.5, filco blue 4, fukka 4 (and Model-M 5)
Total noise while typing fast -- topre 2, filco brown 2, filco blue 3, fukka 4 (and Model-M 5)
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in that case
topre - 1/5 or 2/5
brown - 3/5 (just for your poll, see below)
membrane - 5/5 ("when it hits the bottom...")
i dont really get it though... how can it give you a BETTER sense of it registering? either it does or doesnt, and either you feel it or you dont. i cant feel topre, i can feel brown. a model m would be a bigger punch but the brown notifies me just as effectively.
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Subtract all the above scores by one, and add the Model F in at number 5 =P
All jokes aside, I think a larger scale would probably serve this kind of thing better.
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I guess what I mean is getting a sense of registering before the key bottoms out so your finger can move on to the next key without necessarily having to full-travel the previous one. That's why I rate the crummy membranes as a 1 because for a lot of them the only "hump" is the bottoming out -- there's nothing during the 4mm or so of key travel that otherwise tells you a keystroke has registered. My M13 keys have a hump at about 2mm, after which I can back off that key before going the full 4mm knowing the keystroke is registered.
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I don't do surveys. Plus, you're thinking too much. You know the answer in your heart.
Right now I think the answer's in my wallet. But I am thinking too much, which is why I should perhaps just buy them all.
How active are the classifieds here? They look kinda dead, otherwise I'd be confident I could sell a LNIB keyboard if I didn't like it.
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I'd consider them to be active... What sort of keyboard are you selling here?
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I'd consider them to be active... What sort of keyboard are you selling here?
The one I'm about to buy and probably won't like when it arrives. I'm thinking of rolling a dice and assigning a number each to filco blue, filco brown, realforce and fukka.
Unless I find my heart before then, but it has been MIA for some time now. .
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all the like-new stuff seems to sell pretty quick, just dont try to get what you paid and it should sell
EDIT and yeah, cherry blue and realforce dont seem to have that many people who decide they do not like them
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Go for the Blues, they're a pretty reliable choice.
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Do you know of any other switches that feel similar to the blue Cherry's?
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I was hoping the browns would feel like the blues, just without the click (which is hwo they seem to be marketed), but by all accounts they are also slightly lighter as well as quieter.
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I was hoping the browns would feel like the blues, just without the click (which is hwo they seem to be marketed), but by all accounts they are also slightly lighter as well as quieter.
Wait for the Blue Cherry keyboards. The Browns are NOT just like the blues without the click. I personally do not care for the Browns because the tactile bump is so subtle, the switch feels linear. I mean the Dell AT101W with Cherry switches has more tactility than the Cherry Browns, but also requires more force for the key presses. I prefer the Topre key switches over the Brown Cherries.
The Blue Cherries are light (almost too light for me) but also a lot of fun to type on. I got two Filco FKBN104/MC boards: one for home and one for the office becasue I got tired of carrying the keyboard back and forth.
I also have a TVS Gold keyboard that uses Blue Cherry key switches. It is a pretty decent keyboard - very decent considering it costs about $25 USD. However, I prefer the solid feel of the Filcos (for 5 times the price).
You can actually get a 104 key Blue Cherry keyboard right now from EliteKeyboards.com...if you like pink :)
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You can actually get a 104 key Blue Cherry keyboard right now from EliteKeyboards.com...if you like pink :)
Do it!!! (and then post pics)
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I guess what I mean is getting a sense of registering before the key bottoms out so your finger can move on to the next key without necessarily having to full-travel the previous one. That's why I rate the crummy membranes as a 1 because for a lot of them the only "hump" is the bottoming out -- there's nothing during the 4mm or so of key travel that otherwise tells you a keystroke has registered. My M13 keys have a hump at about 2mm, after which I can back off that key before going the full 4mm knowing the keystroke is registered.
The only bump that matters on a rubber dome board is the bottom out bump because that is when the key is registered. I would not typify all membrane boards as crummy because the IBM Model M is nothing more than a Hammer on membrane. What makes them different is how the contact is made, on a rubber dome you bottom out the dome and a nub in the dome forces the membranes to make contact, on BS a spring buckles causing a hammer to slam into the membrane which then makes the contact.
The Topre is different (if you really want to know the difference read the top section of the wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre)) like the Model M you do not have to bottom out the key for a key to register. But as you mentioned the feel is very subtle and you have to use the board for a while to really feel it. If you bottom it out you know for sure that the key registered no matter how hard or light you bottomed it out. The key actually registers at about mid point. Also the hump you feel in most rubber domes including the Topre is the dome collapsing basically the key will feel like it is falling away from your finger when that happens on a Topre board the key has registered.
ha - we're up to 85 posts. After 15 more you are forced by the site admin to buy us all a beer.
In your Original Post you said you needed a quieter keyboard. I'm not sure if it's an office mate or baby or whatever but if it's baby quiet, quiet, quiet you need it's Topre baby! Or buy somebody some headphones.
I agree with you ripster this thread has moved away from "I want a quite board" to "I want another board like the BS I have". None of the click boards and thus boards with a well defined tactile point are quite. I don't know of a quite board that really has a well defined tactile point like a BS board or of the cherry blue for that matter.
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im serious though, i dont think brown is really significantly louder than topre
also, why is a membrane board so notoriously short-lived, but a BS board so awesome if they both work by membrane?
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im serious though, i dont think brown is really significantly louder than topre
I agree if you don't bottom them out. Once you start bottoming them out though the brown is louder but not by allot.
also, why is a membrane board so notoriously short-lived, but a BS board so awesome if they both work by membrane?
Good rubber domes are not short lived think Lifetime warranty KeyTronics keyboards I have one laying around here that I've had since the early 90's and it still feels the same as the day I got it. The domes are good and thick and made from good rubber. But I don't use it much any more because I prefer a board that you don't have to bottom out with some force to make the key register.
The problem is the cheap junk ones. In those if you ever take one apart (I have) the domes look more like a pyramid instead of a dome and are made of cheap and very thin rubber. So after a fair amount of use the thin wall rubber just breaks and there goes your board. I guess I should take one of my junk HP boards apart and take some pictures so you can see what I mean but the rubber is really very thin but because of the shape of the dome you have to really force it to collapse.
Then you really have to also go into the overall build quality of the boards as well. I'm sure I don't have to explain this part though.
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okay, makes sense.
also, maybe my topre = brown noise opinion is because i am comparing bottomed-out topre to not-bottomed-out brown noises. then again, that's only fair, as it's a common problem.
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In your Original Post you said you needed a quieter keyboard. I'm not sure if it's an office mate or baby or whatever but if it's baby quiet, quiet, quiet you need it's Topre baby! Or buy somebody some headphones.
Well, I went back to those original requirements (before my brain started wandering and wallet started flapping) and decided to let the person most affected decided -- my long-suffering gf who I'll be trying to not wake up.
I played her two different sets of Filco Brown and Realforce Topre clips (one set from youtube and one yours). The decision, ladies and gentlemen, was unanimous -- TOPRE WINS!
She said the Filco brown sounded like a "bunch of rats knawing at something". Oh, and I still haven't told her how much the Topre costs. Not sure I ever will. So now I'll have the quietest and loudest keyboards.
Next question is when will the Realforce 87U be back in stock at elite? And will it be more expensive than the 104?
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alright. i just got out my filco brown, just for you, to test what i had typed out and erased.
first of all, i dont think comparing audio clips is valid for VOLUME. type of sound, maybe, sort of, but not volume.
im sitting here with my HHKB and filco. everything i have typed in this post with my HHKB i am typing on the disconnected filco, after each sentence.
im telling you, the noise level is not really comparable. the topre switches emit a lower, more unique sound... like wooden sticks clacking together. when i bottom out, just a very quiet 'thud'. supposedly a lot of the topre sound comes from the usually-POM keycaps, and i believe it, they have a great deal of influence on the feel.
now for the brown. a much 'lighter' sound, but not to say it is 'sharper'. just has much more of a 'typewriter' sound to it. sounds a lot more 'mechanical'. when alternating keyboards typing a part down below, i guessed that it sounds more like rain on a rooftop. when you bottom them out, you get a second noise with each keypress, but it much quieter and more subdued than the first. when i type fast it sounds more rhythmic, and less like many individual sounds like the topre does. the exception to this rhythm is the spacebar. though the topre spacebar is louder than the rest of the keys, it is also a deeper note. the brown (at least, on my filco remember) is a louder, sharper noise that can be picked out from the rest, as if you can hear when each word starts and ends. i feel like a lot of this is due to the relatively thin, flimsy plastic of the filco keys, like it is rattling under my thumb, so maybe it is something that can be trained to be reduced.
not trying to sway you either way, but if pure silence is all you are looking for, i dont think the topre is really offering anything more for twice the price. i know you are using the audio clips to try to gauge it, but i wouldnt really trust those as a real comparison. not that you should trust me either. but realistically i think a quiet rubber dome (my G15, for example) is quieter than either.
and yes, this comes from a topre bottom-outer (though i dont think i do it every single stroke, lately, but it is certainly not due to feeling any sort of 'bump'), and a gifted soul that can not bottom out the browns... but again, i am not the only person to have these tendencies.
EDIT and dont feel too bad, my search for the one and only keyboard that was quiet and not clickety-clackety (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6862&highlight=filco+realforce+andrewzorn) went on for a lot longer. and now i actually own clicky keyboards. not sure if i like them yet, though.
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Thanks for the noise test... struck me from all the audio clips that the filco does have a more mechanical sound, like a ratatatatat, versus the muffled claking of the topre, which makes sense because one is purely mechanical and one has a layer of rubber to muffle the mechanics.
Ripster's audio clips seem to be all the same recording volume and setup, and that was what convinced me that the topre is a less intrusive sound... like you said, not necessarily much quieter but less sharp and intrusive (for want of a better term).
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Anyone had any experience with the Thanko Silent Keyboard EX? I have seen some bloggers commenting about it. It's supposed to be near silent.
Thank you
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Next question is when will the Realforce 87U be back in stock at elite? And will it be more expensive than the 104?
Not sure when the 87U will be back in stock but the 87U has consistently been more expensive than the 103 that is currently in stock. Sorry I forget what the last price was but it was around $244 I think. I think he put the TBA price on it now because the USD has been droping in value against the yen so he may not know what the board will end up costing him until it ships and he is charged.
If you want a good estimate as to when it will come back into stock send EliteKeyboards a email to the sales email address they are really good about letting you know this stuff if you ask. But the question will be can they get more of them the 87U was a limited production run.
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alright. i just got out my filco brown, just for you, to test what i had typed out and erased.
first of all, i dont think comparing audio clips is valid for VOLUME. type of sound, maybe, sort of, but not volume.
im sitting here with my HHKB and filco. everything i have typed in this post with my HHKB i am typing on the disconnected filco, after each sentence.
That says allot right there. You actually use the HHKB Pro while the brown cherry is in the box :)
That to me is really why the Topre boards are worth the money. I use it every day because for me at least it is the best keyboard. Yea I have other boards but when I want to code and or do allot of typing it is going to be on the Topre. If I want something a little different then I plug in the BS board and use it for a hour or so then the Topre goes back on. I mean the Topre was designed for typing with out stress or it really getting in your way. The Topre patent is actually a pretty good read as to what they where trying to achieve and I really do think they got it right.
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Well, I went back to those original requirements (before my brain started wandering and wallet started flapping) and decided to let the person most affected decided -- my long-suffering gf who I'll be trying to not wake up.
I played her two different sets of Filco Brown and Realforce Topre clips (one set from youtube and one yours). The decision, ladies and gentlemen, was unanimous -- TOPRE WINS!
She said the Filco brown sounded like a "bunch of rats knawing at something". Oh, and I still haven't told her how much the Topre costs. Not sure I ever will. So now I'll have the quietest and loudest keyboards.
Next question is when will the Realforce 87U be back in stock at elite? And will it be more expensive than the 104?
If you've definitely been persuaded to spend the big coin and get a Topre keyboard, get either a HHKB Pro 2 along with the Realforce 23UB number pad or Realforce 87U. The HHKB is an outstanding keyboard with an unbeatable form factor and mappable keys. Same goes for the 87U. They sound much better than Cherry Brown boards because of the soft landing of the keys when bottoming out. Some say they are able to type without bottoming out, but it's impossible for me. When you need to use a number pad, the Realforce 23UB plugs into one of the USB ports on the HHKB Pro 2 and pairs nicely cosmetically i.e. they look like they match.
If you don't go with the HHKB Pro, I would wait for the Topre Realforce 87U. This is another awesome keyboard - extremely comfortable to type on for long periods of time and generally pretty quiet. I would get the Realforce 23UB also because it sounds like there are times that you need to have a dedicated 10-key. I pull out my 23UB when it's needed and stash it when I don't.
If you go this route, be prepared to part with some signficant $$$. The new price for the Realforce 87U has not been announced but I'll bet it will be somewhere around $275 or $280. EliteKeyboards.com slightly lowered the price of the 23U keypad from $128 to $122 - still very pricey, but IMO, worth every dime.
Note, the Topre boards are relatively quiet, but not as quiet as a typical cheap rubber dome keyboards. You have to remember that these are really hybrid keyboards that use a mechanical slider for each individual switch. They are definitley quieter than buckling spring and Cherry Blue keyboards, but the key presses are not silent, especially the infamous "thunk" of the space bar. Still, my family is able to sleep soundly while I pound away late into the night on my HHKB or 87U.
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I would love to hold out for a Realforce 87U (or get an HHKB), but either of those plus the keypad combined will be at least 50% more than the 104U and I'm already waaay over budget (I budgeted $150 for a new keyboard... heh heh). Maybe next year I'll treat myself to one of the next batch of cherry blue tenkeyless Filco boards that I can alternate with my M13 as the noisy "daytime" user.
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That is what the Model M space saver is for in my line up. One of the Customizer's have been confiscated by my son. The other is a backup.
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I would love to hold out for a Realforce 87U (or get an HHKB), but either of those plus the keypad combined will be at least 50% more than the 104U and I'm already waaay over budget (I budgeted $150 for a new keyboard... heh heh). Maybe next year I'll treat myself to one of the next batch of cherry blue tenkeyless Filco boards that I can alternate with my M13 as the noisy "daytime" user.
Just bare in mind that Blues, while quieter than Buckling Springs, are still quite loud and make a less pleasant noise than the BS.
Still a great keyboard though.
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alright. i just got out my filco brown, just for you, to test what i had typed out and erased.
first of all, i dont think comparing audio clips is valid for VOLUME. type of sound, maybe, sort of, but not volume.
I agree. I have never heard an audio clip sample that matches exactly the sound I hear when I'm actually typing on the keyboard. The audio clips may give you an idea of what it may sound like, but I doubt it will be 100% accurate.
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So with the help of all you folks here I've narrowed it down to a Brown Cherry keyboard (Filco) or a Topre Realforce. What I'm trying to decide is which might be better suited to my typing style. It sounds like they both need about the same force to register a keypress, but I'm worried that because this force is considerably less than required on my M13 I'll end up craving some form -- any form -- of tactile feedback. Which of them is gonna give me more feedback, or is the feedback from each so different that it's hard to compare?
This is a question for which you may never find the answer. While both need about the same force to register, the feel is different. At the beginning, I think the Filco will give more feedback, but with time you'll learn to notice the feedback of the Topre which is more subtle I think. But like I said in another thread, if you have never tried neither of these two and can afford it, then maybe you should get both simply because they are different. Most of the time, the more opinions you get will only make it more difficult to make a decision, been there, done that :-)
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I've been going back and forth between the 2. They are definitely my 2 favs, but I like each of them for different reasons. I think I might just keep swapping between the 2, but may use only Topre at home where quiet is more important.