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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Shad0w on Wed, 18 November 2009, 08:23:55

Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Shad0w on Wed, 18 November 2009, 08:23:55
Hi there,

I'm planning my next keyboard purchase and would like to know what you guys think.

I have never had a topre keyboard. I will probably be going with the Realforce than HHKB 2. No particular reason. I didnt think I needed a compact keyboard but I do want the best typing experience. If anyone out there who owns both of them feel like I should get the HHKB 2, please tell me why so.

There is already another thread about the 103 vs 87U. I don't use the numpad but it might be useful for some games. Get 103 now or wait for 87U?

I have seen many people here say that the topre keyboards are quiet ones, which is very appealing to me. I often use my computer late at night and wouldn't want to wake up anyone.

Those of you who have both filcos and topre keyboards, which one do you prefer most?

USB Interface - Does that mean the realforce keyboards are limited to 6 key presses at a time? I do play games a lot and the full N key rollover with the PS2 interface was great. I do play fast paced keystroke games where my fingers go crazy! Should I just pick a cherry brown NKRO filco instead of a topre if the typing experience is not that vastly different? How loud are they compared to a topre keyboard?

I know it's a long thread but it would be great if you guys could share your thoughts.

Thank you
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 08:46:19
Funny... my brain read your subject line as "To pray or not?"

I'm curious to hear more comments about filco vs. topre as well -- from what i've read so far the Topre 'boards definitely have a following but exactly *why* folks like them still seems a bit fuzzy to me, perhaps because I can't get my head around how any keyboard employing rubber domes can feel anything near as good as a true mechanical switch board.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: alpslover on Wed, 18 November 2009, 08:47:07
they are very different typing experiences.  i personally prefer cherry blues over the topres, and the topres over the cherry browns.

the usb interface means that you are limited to 6 simultaneous keypresses excluding modifier keys (ctrl, alt, shift), but those 6 non-modifier keys can be any combination of keys.

my realforce 101 has a ps2 interface and will register as many simultaneous keypresses as i can manage.  not sure why more recent realforces don't have ps2 connectivity (at the very least an adapter like filco includes).  has anybody tried a usb to ps2 adapter on a usb realforce?
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: alpslover on Wed, 18 November 2009, 08:53:57
Quote from: wordfool;133580
I can't get my head around how any keyboard employing rubber domes can feel anything near as good as a true mechanical switch board.


because you're going into it with the mindset that all mechanical switches must be superior to rubber domes.  once you've experienced a wide variety of switches, you'll realize this isn't necessarily true.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: leos on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:08:40
Quote from: alpslover;133584
because you're going into it with the mindset that all mechanical switches must be superior to rubber domes.  once you've experienced a wide variety of switches, you'll realize this isn't necessarily true.


Full Ack!!!

Topre is amazing (HHKB Pro 2) softy and tactile.

Cherry MX is amazing, tactile no softy feeling and loud.

Alps is amazing, very tactile no softy and loud.

Everything of them is good and depends on your needs.

my preferred KB is at the Time the hhkb pro 2
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:13:35
Quote from: leos;133589
Full Ack!!!

Completely OT: This must be a German thing. I have never seen this phrase until I came here, and it's only been said by several German members. At first, I thought it had to do with choking, or something.
 
Carry on...
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: leos on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:25:52
Quote from: itlnstln;133596
Completely OT: This must be a German thing. I have never seen this phrase until I came here, and it's only been said by several German members. At first, I thought it had to do with choking, or something.
 
Carry on...


It is a german think (Netzjargon), it means "fully Acknowledgment"
it used most by coder or people they are many hours online.


??????Carry on...?????? How should i understand this??
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: MsKeyboard on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:26:33
Has anyone heard from Patrick lately?  He has had his 103 for awhile now, so it would be interesting to see what is happening to his preferences.

All this talk about feel is sooo subjective really.  We can only tell you our experiences and preferences, but picking a switch that feels good to you, as well as a layout is fully on you.  We have some extreme fans of just about every switch and configuration here, all we can do is recommend.  It's all kind of Blond VS Brunette (sorry Redheads ;).

Good luck on your search, and be sure to let everyone know what you decide on and how it works out for you.

Later............
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:31:03
Quote from: alpslover;133584
because you're going into it with the mindset that all mechanical switches must be superior to rubber domes.  once you've experienced a wide variety of switches, you'll realize this isn't necessarily true.


Probably true. I have used some decent cheapo rubber domed boards -- in fact I have a Lenovo one now that has a nice feel to it with a definite hump to get over halfway through the keypress, but I'd hardly call it tactile because the hump's a bit vague and the resistance either side just feels too linear.

One thing that put me off the Realforce boards is the variable resistance of the keys based on their position. I'm not sure they'd be compatible with my typing style. That and the $240 price tag, which puts it beyond the realm of "I'll buy it to see if I like it".
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:34:58
Quote from: leos;133601
??????Carry on...?????? How should i understand this??

It just means to disregard what I did and to continue with what you are doing.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: alpslover on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:41:17
Quote from: wordfool;133606

One thing that put me off the Realforce boards is the variable resistance of the keys based on their position.


i dislike that feature as well.  i find the lighter weight keys to be substantially less tactile than the normal ones, to the point where they're more mushy than tactile.  if all of the keys were equally weighted, i think i'd use the realforce more.  but other people aren't bothered by the key weighting as much.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: leos on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:46:15
Quote from: ripster;133609
German.  Oh pleez.
Show Image
(http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Charles/bill-cat-ack.jpg)


Germans haven't invented anything new since MP3 and I STILL refuse to pay Fraunhofer royalties.



Porsche Panamera Turbo:tea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_bfWH8w3g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_bfWH8w3g)
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Mnemonix on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:51:51
Quote from: ripster;133609
Germans haven't invented anything new since MP3 and I STILL refuse to pay Fraunhofer royalties.


Germans frequently re-invent English words and use them the wrong way: Handy (= cell phone); Beamer (= projector); Notebook (= laptop); and these are only those that I pop up in my mind right now.
I am not sure if all of these are all true Germanisms, though.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Shad0w on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:53:22
Thanks for the replies! I understand typing feel is a very subjective, I was just wondering what everyone personally preferred.

I have no experience with variable key forces. I would just have to try it myself and see what it feels like. I'm a touch typist and I type rather fast. The only rubber dome keyboards I liked so far are the old thinkpad keyboards and the Microsoft elite.

I think I will probably go with the Realforce 103.

Thank you
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 09:58:54
Quote from: Mnemonix;133620
Handy.

We've reinvented this one, too.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: majestouch on Wed, 18 November 2009, 10:02:02
Quote from: alpslover;133581

my realforce 101 has a ps2 interface and will register as many simultaneous keypresses as i can manage.  not sure why more recent realforces don't have ps2 connectivity (at the very least an adapter like filco includes).  has anybody tried a usb to ps2 adapter on a usb realforce?


I've tried before on an 87U, doesn't work. I'll try a 103U next time I reboot my desktop, but not now...USB at least has hot-pluggability going for it.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Shad0w on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:03:26
There are many reasons why one would need more than 6 key rollover. I myself play Synthesia a lot. CoOp as you mentioned, games like street fighter where you sit side by side and smash the keys. The really fun ones are those korean and Japanese musical games where at any given time there could be as much as 16 notes on screen for you to hit but you only have 10 fingers. I didn't know you could use two keyboards at the same time. Both will register?

I really do like everything I have read about the topre switches so far. I don't think I can get both topre and a filco brown NKRO. I don't want to start a keyboard buying spree.

Thank you
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:05:03
Quote from: Shad0w;133671
I don't want to start a keyboard buying spree.

Good luck with that.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:20:13
it was my honest intention to only buy the topre, then only the topre and filco brown, etc

also, remember that it is 6 keys without modifiers, i have achieved 9 if i recall correctly using shift, ctrl, and alt.

EDIT also, Synthesia... looks neat. i have been looking for a freestyle keyboard (the musical one) program for years... just something that will let me select an instrument, and jam away on it by pushing different keys
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:00:26
Quote from: AndrewZorn;133681
it was my honest intention to only buy the topre, then only the topre and filco brown, etc


but which one do you like/use the most?!
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:07:38
i only have two near me: the hhkb topre and the filco brown.  i use the hhkb most, but that's because of desk space and convenience (and of course, the layout!)

the actual switch?  i tell myself the topre is better, but every time i type on the brown... i just dont know...
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Arc'xer on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:14:40
Quote from: Shad0w;133671
There are many reasons why one would need more than 6 key rollover. I myself play Synthesia a lot. CoOp as you mentioned, games like street fighter where you sit side by side and smash the keys. The really fun ones are those korean and Japanese musical games where at any given time there could be as much as 16 notes on screen for you to hit but you only have 10 fingers. I didn't know you could use two keyboards at the same time. Both will register?

I really do like everything I have read about the topre switches so far. I don't think I can get both topre and a filco brown NKRO. I don't want to start a keyboard buying spree.

Thank you


Exactly, if it's there why not use it? Majestouch Tenkeyless n-key rollover  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XakIyvextO8&fmt=37)Look at the game and amount of keys he is hitting

Besides isn't PS/2 just fine for keyboards? USB polling rate doesn't affect nor benefit a keyboard unlike a mouse.

From, Manyak's guide (http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html):

PS/2 or USB?
PS/2 wins on three fronts: First, it supports full n-key rollover. Second, PS/2 keyboards aren't polled, but are completely interrupt based. And third, it is impossible for it to be delayed by the USB bus being used by other devices. There are two types of USB transfer modes - the interrupt transfer mode (USB polls keyboard, when key is sensed the USB controller sends the interrupt to the CPU), and the isochronous transfer mode, which reserves a certain amount of bandwidth for the keyboard with a guaranteed latency on the bus. Unfortunately, there are absolutely no keyboards made that use the latter, because special controllers would have to be used, thus making it cost prohibitive.

So if your keyboard supports both PS/2 and USB, and your PC has a PS/2 port, there's no reason not to use it.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:19:07
I didn't realize until this thread that the Realforce could not use ps2 (I just assumed it did, like the Filcos that ekb sells). Bah. Another dealkiller for me.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:20:03
right, but USB wins on versatility (and having a USB hub, if youre into all that)

id like to live optimistically too, but if we cant even get keyboard manufacturers to realize their mistakes, i dont see motherboard manufacturers caring about PS/2 much longer.  its been on the way out for a while now.  very few computers left sold with PS/2, especially if you consider laptops.

before i knew its advantages (and maybe even still... sorry guys) i was even welcoming the abandoning of PS/2
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:21:29
Another way of expressing that is that it wastes a USB port when there's already a dedicated port for the purpose that does the job just as well.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:24:47
That's my gripe... my laptop dock has 4 USB ports that are all accounted for, leaving the kb to go in the ps2. Having a USB kb would mean having to daisy another USB hub or pulling one of the existing cables. The flexibility of being able to use either usb or ps2 for a keyboard is a big plus for me.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:24:58
Quote from: ch_123;133722
Another way of expressing that is that it wastes a USB port when there's already a dedicated port for the purpose that does the job just as well.
yet another way of expressing that is saying that usb ports are very easily multiplied and have no practical limit

and like i was saying, not all computers now even have a PS/2 port
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:26:26
There are some folks around here that prefer USB, because it's easier to change 'boards than PS2.  Not only that, many of those folks champion removable USB cables so they can unplug from the back of one keyboard and straight into the other.  I don't really care since I don't do anything that requires NKRO, but I will concede that if you don't change out keyboards a whole lot that PS2 would be the better option if it is available.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:28:35
yeah, even the model m had the right idea with the detachable cable.  imagine if ALL your keyboards used a mini-USB plug to connect to the keyboard, just having one cable at home... one at work... man oh man.

EDIT another USB advantage is that it leaves room for more device possibility, neat ideas like the optimus maximus, built-in storage for keymaps... all that stuff kind of needs something like USB
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:04:14
but, the interrupts!

EDIT also, i retract my statement about mini-USB, the printer style one would be more appropriate
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:08:53
Damn, I hated dealing with IRQ and DMA conflicts back in the day.  That sucked.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:14:05
Quote from: ripster;133747
Otherwise there is no reason not to use USB.


Yep. Need that 480Mb/s bus to catch up with my typing!
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:17:38
Quote from: ripster;133747
PS/2 gives you Vintage cred.   Otherwise there is no reason not to use USB.

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3898&stc=1&d=1250785989)


Thats a nice mini there ripster. Is that Caps Lock key blue?
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: alpslover on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:20:01
Quote from: ch_123;133722
Another way of expressing that is that it wastes a USB port when there's already a dedicated port for the purpose that does the job just as well.


i'd say it does it even better.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:52:26
Yeah, I think Ripster may have forgot about things such as NKRO for example...
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:58:03
Quote from: ch_123;133777
Yeah, I think Ripster may have forgot about things such as NKRO for example...

I don't think so.  He is a firm believer in "6 is enough."
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Mnemonix on Wed, 18 November 2009, 15:05:58
Quote from: AndrewZorn;133750
EDIT also, i retract my statement about mini-USB, the printer style one would be more appropriate


Yes, I also used the big ones on my Model M and M4-1 controller. It's harder to pull them out by accident.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 15:10:52
might have to try it on my gray-cabled black M13
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: Langley on Wed, 18 November 2009, 15:34:10
With all the devices that use USB these days, it's nice to be able to free one spot up by using the PS/2 keyboard port. I'm glad some of the upper-end motherboards are finally starting to drop the PS/2 mouse port. Now that's useless.
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 15:37:06
but I can plug the trackpoint part of my M13 cable into my dock's ps2 mouse port, just to confuse the hell out of my computer
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: leos on Wed, 18 November 2009, 17:14:01
Quote from: Mnemonix;133620
Germans frequently re-invent English words and use them the wrong way: Handy (= cell phone); Beamer (= projector); Notebook (= laptop); and these are only those that I pop up in my mind right now.
I am not sure if all of these are all true Germanisms, though.


Sure!!:biggrin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English)

But in all you ve right , englis(c)h is a World language. I say always "ok" and not "klar" or "sicher"
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 18:01:30
I thing the regularity at which people hotswap keyboards is exaggerated by some, even by the standards of folks around here...
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 18:07:21
i think the regularity with which people use more than 6 keys is exaggerated by some, even by the standards of folks around here
Title: Topre or not?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 20 November 2009, 23:53:51
Quote from: MsKeyboard;133603
Has anyone heard from Patrick lately?  He has had his 103 for awhile now, so it would be interesting to see what is happening to his preferences.


Hi MsKeyboard :-)


Quote

All this talk about feel is sooo subjective really.  We can only tell you our experiences and preferences, but picking a switch that feels good to you, as well as a layout is fully on you.  We have some extreme fans of just about every switch and configuration here, all we can do is recommend.  It's all kind of Blond VS Brunette (sorry Redheads ;).

Good luck on your search, and be sure to let everyone know what you decide on and how it works out for you.

Later............


You're absolutely right in saying that all this is very subjective. If it was not, we would not have this forum.

I happen to have both the Filco with brown Cherries and the Topre 103U. Personally, I would say that among all the keyboards I have tried, the Filco with brown Cherries is the one that comes closest to the feel of the Topre. However, there are still some differences. I will try to put them in point form:

Actuation force:
While they are both light compared to other keyboards, the Topre requires more initial force and then gets lighter. The Filco require less initial force, but the resistance increases up to the tactile point.

Tactile point
There's a sharper feel in the tactile point of the Filco which make it easier to learn not to bottom out faster. That said, once one learns not to bottom out or bottom out with much less force on the Topre, it's a different kind of feeling. I only recently started to not bottom out on the Topre (actually it happened on its own) and it makes me appreciate the keyboard even more. It reminds me of Ratatouille. One ingredient on it's own is good, the other ingredient on its own is good too, but together...

Sound
There is no friction noise on the Topre. I do like the friction noise on the Filco. The Topre has a soothing toc toc sound, but to be fair to the Filco, while it sound is entirely different, it's very nice to the ear as well.

Noise level
While the Topre is quieter than the Filco, it's not entirely silent. And with time on the Filco, one can learn to be very quiet on it.

So, to answer the OP question, from my comparison above, one can easily see that I don't have a preference between the two. In fact, if I were to pick my favourite keyboard it would be my G80 with blue Cherries. I think it's not possible to fairly compare the Topre to the Filco for the simple reason that they use completely different technologies. It would be more fair to compare a Filco with blue Cherries and a G80 with blue Cherries because since they both have the same switch, the difference in feel will be from the shape of the keyboards, the keycaps and how the keys are mounted.

All in all, they are both good keyboards. I can't decide, between the two, which one I like best. In fact, the more I use one keyboard, the more I also appreciate the other ones because they are...different.  And if the OP is into keyboard and have never use neither the Topre nor the Filco with brown Cherries, then maybe a better advice would be to get both and see for himself.