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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:38:08

Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:38:08: I'm thinking of doing a keyboard shootout of sorts at my work. We have a training room full of laptops and I'm thinking of bringing in several boards and have the MIS people try and rate them all.

I thought it would be interesting to do this with people who have no bias or preference to any type of keyboard that I know of. (They all use standard rubber dome keyboards)

I have:
Standard Rubber dome / Membrane keyboard (Current Dell standard issue)
Quality Rubber dome / Membrane keyboards (Keytronics, IBM, Logitech or Microsoft)
Tactile + Clicky Buckling Spring (IBM Model M)
Tactile Non-Clicky (Filco Cherry Brown key switches)
Tactile + Clicky (Filco Cherry Blue key switches)
Capacitive Tactile Non-Clicky (Realforce Topre 103U)

I would like to get:
Alps sliders – Clicky Dell AT101W

I was thinking of having each user rate each keyboard on a scale of 1-10 in these areas:
1 - Feel
2 - Sound
3 - Speed/Accuracy
4 - Overall

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:42:24: can I come?!
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:45:37: Wouldn't bother with Dell AT101Ws... They're pretty inferior to the ones in your list already.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: spuxx on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:47:05: Sounds pretty interesting and I'm looking forward to see the results although I don't think the vintage boards will get good ratings (e.g IBM Model M or AT101W) because as far as I know most people think that old means bad and useless in computer terms (e.g old, slow computers) so it's more of a psychological thing but in my opinions that counts most for the average user.

Very nice idea, keep up the good work!
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:50:42: You can always just use new versions of the above - Unicomp Spacesavers or ABS M1s. Actually, stay away from the latter, they seem more trouble than they are worth.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 12:57:15: you could try blindfolding the punters -- sounds extreme, but as spuxx said a lot of people have a "consumer" bias and would probably associate goodness with a modern, kewl looking keyboard, so they'd mentally rate a Logitech higher than a Model M even before typing on them.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:00:31: Quote from: wordfool;133707
you could try blindfolding the punters -- sounds extreme, but as spuxx said a lot of people have a "consumer" bias and would probably associate goodness with a modern, kewl looking keyboard, so they'd mentally rate a Logitech higher than a Model M even before typing on them.

That would go for a Unicomp, too. They didn't get any better looking from the original Ms. In fact, I think they look a little worse with the Unicomp sticker on the lock lights.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: spuxx on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:00:32: Quote
You can always just use new versions of the above - Unicomp Spacesavers or ABS M1s. Actually, stay away from the latter, they seem more trouble than they are worth.

do you mean in relation to the project or generally because I think it will be much cheaper to use a nice vintage IBM model M probably modded with a usb controller than buy a unicomp product or similiar products especially if you live somewhere where shipping costs or too high for such products (e.g Europe)
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:01:58: I was going to "prime" them with the invite, explaining some virtues of mechanical switch keyboards, why they used to be made so much better than today's standard keyboard and that they should focus on the typing experience rather than the look or color of the keyboard.

EDIT: I already have a few excellent Model M's so I'm not interested in buying any Unicomps or more M's right now. In fact the only 2 KB's I can think of that I want at this time are a Realforce 87u and to try a board with Alps sliders. I know I've typed on Alps but don't recall what it was like. I'm also unsure of which Alps I should be looking for.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: spuxx on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:08:08: Quote from: didjamatic;133711
I was going to "prime" them with the invite, explaining some virtues of mechanical switch keyboards, why they used to be made so much better than today's standard keyboard and that they should focus on the typing experience rather than the look or color of the keyboard.

That might help and I'd also mention things like gold contacts on the cherry switches or the chaotical activation of a buckling spring, that stuff impressed me the most about those mechanical keyboards despite the nice feeling ^^
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:13:39: yeah, lifetime and build quality (not that a cheap mechanical cannot / does not exist, but that when you start to pay the big bucks, you get well built boards)

also, dont forget to mention transposition/nkro
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:15:11: What exactly is the purpose of the presentation? Is it just for the sake of it, or are you trying to convince them to buy those keyboards for the company or what?
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:23:47: well what was the point of all THIS?

(http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/gladiator.jpg)

the keyboard thing is just an update
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: spuxx on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:27:53: Quote from: AndrewZorn;133723
well what was the point of all THIS?

nice one ^^
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:46:25: Quote from: ch_123;133718
What exactly is the purpose of the presentation? Is it just for the sake of it, or are you trying to convince them to buy those keyboards for the company or what?

Just for fun. I was going to bring a few in to let coworkers try, then I thought I could set them up in our lab to test side by side, then I thought I could record the results and post them online where they are people as geeky as me that may find that to be of interest. I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy or do anything. I still might just set them up and let them pick their top 3 instead of making it too complicated with a form to fill out.

I already tried to get them to buy me a Filco, but they said it wasn't justified. Now that you mention it, maybe this will change their minds. But that wasn't and isn't my intention, it's just for fun.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: wordfool on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:51:39: Quote from: didjamatic;133733
I already tried to get them to buy me a Filco, but they said it wasn't justified. Now that you mention it, maybe this will change their minds. But that wasn't and isn't my intention, it's just for fun.

You mean you didn't whip up a spreadsheet illustrating how typing 20 wpm faster over the course of the next five years would save you X hours a month equating to X dollars saved by the company?!
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 13:54:01: Quote from: AndrewZorn;133723
well what was the point of all THIS?

Show Image
(http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/gladiator.jpg)

the keyboard thing is just an update

We're trying to appease the Gods?

Quote
I already tried to get them to buy me a Filco, but they said it wasn't justified. Now that you mention it, maybe this will change their minds. But that wasn't and isn't my intention, it's just for fun.

Just count yourself lucky that they let you use the thing at all... I read one story somewhere where a guy who used an AT101W came in one morning to find his boss in his office, with a rubber dome keyboard on his desk.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:00:07: In the pre-Y2K update frenzy I was doing a contract to swap out several entire networks on the east coast, we'd go to one site per week and replace everything on the site. A guy I was working with ripped out a PC and threw a guy's Model M in the trash and put a new board in it's place with his new PC, the user came EXPLODING across the office, shrieking like a madman, swinging at the fences. My buddy was lucky to escape with his life. I bet that keyboard is still there.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: spuxx on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:03:03: Quote from: ch_123;133741
We're trying to appease the Gods?

Well that's what the politicians of the roman empire taught them what it's for but I think most of them watched it for entertainment purpose, it's comparable to our situation: everyone pretends to win some efficiency with mechanical keyboards, but in the end its sheer entertainment (yes I know many won't agree but for me, that's it)
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:05:43: Quote from: didjamatic;133694
I'm thinking of doing a keyboard shootout of sorts at my work. We have a training room full of laptops and I'm thinking of bringing in several boards and have the MIS people try and rate them all.

I thought it would be interesting to do this with people who have no bias or preference to any type of keyboard that I know of. (They all use standard rubber dome keyboards)

I have:
Standard Rubber dome / Membrane keyboard (Current Dell standard issue)
Quality Rubber dome / Membrane keyboards (Keytronics, IBM, Logitech or Microsoft)
Tactile + Clicky Buckling Spring (IBM Model M)
Tactile Non-Clicky (Filco Cherry Brown key switches)
Tactile + Clicky (Filco Cherry Blue key switches)
Capacitive Tactile Non-Clicky (Realforce Topre 103U)

I would like to get:
Alps sliders – Clicky Dell AT101W

I was thinking of having each user rate each keyboard on a scale of 1-10 in these areas:
1 - Feel
2 - Sound
3 - Speed/Accuracy
4 - Overall

Any thoughts on this?

You need a northgate omnikey, or focus, with real complicated preferably blue alps to pit against those. Dell at101w's usually have black alps I believe which aren't clicky.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:07:24: throwing away a keyboard is one thing, but making a loud keyboarder find something else is pretty reasonable in an open environment.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: alpslover on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:15:24: Quote from: didjamatic;133711
I was going to "prime" them with the invite, explaining some virtues of mechanical switch keyboards, why they used to be made so much better than today's standard keyboard

then you'd be introducing bias. let them come to their own conclusions. after all, that's what the shootout is for, isn't it?
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: majestouch on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:21:19: Quote from: didjamatic;133746
In the pre-Y2K update frenzy I was doing a contract to swap out several entire networks on the east coast, we'd go to one site per week and replace everything on the site. A guy I was working with ripped out a PC and threw a guy's Model M in the trash and put a new board in it's place with his new PC, the user came EXPLODING across the office, shrieking like a madman, swinging at the fences. My buddy was lucky to escape with his life. I bet that keyboard is still there.

Sheesh, your buddy should have known better; model Ms can't be put in the regular trash because they qualify as electrical waste. You need to take them to a proper recycling facility.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:26:04: Quote from: majestouch;133759
Sheesh, your buddy should have known better; model Ms can't be put in the regular trash because they qualify as electrical waste. You need to take them to a proper recycling facility.

Yeah, this was in 1999 when a lot of that was up in the air and depended on which state you were in. IIRC some states actually forbid recycling electronics and would only allow recycling of raw materials, while other states required it. Today we stockpile and call recyclers when we're ready for a pickup. Unless the item has Vintage Vibe, then it ends up in my cube.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:26:47: Quote from: alpslover;133755
then you'd be introducing bias. let them come to their own conclusions. after all, that's what the shootout is for, isn't it?

You're right, but I at least wanted to point out that there were some good qualities in older boards so they didn't dismiss them right off the bat.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:32:36: I'm not 100% sure what MIS is, but it doesn't sound like something that potential hardware nerds would have jobs in.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:34:47: Quote from: ch_123;133764
I'm not 100% sure what MIS is, but it doesn't sound like something that potential hardware nerds would have jobs in.

Um.. What is MIS? (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+mis%3F)
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:40:02: LMGTFY works ten times better when you use TinyUrl...

I was being slightly facetious... I'm familiar with Management Science, and I'm a bit cynical about it after a year in college where we were bundled in with a class of them for programming - It seems to be a course for generating the next generation of clueless middle management...
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:41:10: Quote from: ch_123;133768
LMGTFY works ten times better when you use TinyUrl...

I was being slightly facetious... I'm familiar with Management Science, and I'm a bit cynical about it after a year in college where we were bundled in with a class of them for programming - It seems to be a course for generating the next generation of clueless middle management...

TinyUrl expires sooner and I left the full link to save those in the know from having to click to get the joke. Anyway, my company has MIS nerds in Ireland too. With MIS being the career path for many nerds, I found your reply humorous and quotable.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:49:03: and i have found everyone suspects you might be sending them some sort of gross-out link when you use tinyurl

"no really, it wasnt tubgirl, it was just me trying to be an ass!"
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:53:10: Yeah, you see tinyurl and you don't know if you're being rick rolled or something substantially more perverse.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 18 November 2009, 16:53:50: Quote from: ch_123;133701
Wouldn't bother with Dell AT101Ws... They're pretty inferior to the ones in your list already.

How does a Dell AT101w feel?
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 16:59:52: In terms of stiffness, they're like a Buckling Spring. However, all the resistance is concentrated towards the top, which means that you're always going to bottom out on them, and the bottoming out is quite harsh. Despite being a 'non-clicky' switch, they end up being quite loud to type on. In terms of tactility, they're no where near as satisfying as either a Buckling Spring or Cherry. They also feel kinda frictiony and wobbly, even on ones in really good condition, although this is as much a problem with the Dell AT101W's build quality as it is with Alps switches in general.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 18:46:18: Quote from: ch_123;133845
In terms of stiffness, they're like a Buckling Spring. However, all the resistance is concentrated towards the top, which means that you're always going to bottom out on them, and the bottoming out is quite harsh. Despite being a 'non-clicky' switch, they end up being quite loud to type on. In terms of tactility, they're no where near as satisfying as either a Buckling Spring or Cherry. They also feel kinda frictiony and wobbly, even on ones in really good condition, although this is as much a problem with the Dell AT101W's build quality as it is with Alps switches in general.

Yup, in my opinion they're one of the worst alps switches for touch typing. I'd even take greens over them. They minimized their awfulness on my ultra mini though. They're still better than most rubber domes.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 18 November 2009, 19:23:55: How many people here use a keyboard with the complicated white alps?
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 18 November 2009, 20:35:43: Quote from: microsoft windows;133926
How many people here use a keyboard with the complicated white alps?

me
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: msiegel on Wed, 18 November 2009, 20:46:53: simplified (sorry ;)
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 19 November 2009, 07:53:53: My Northgate has complicated white Alps. I thought they were OK.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 25 November 2009, 11:56:41: Well, only 3 people actually tested them all and gave feedback. Most people just left and wandered back to their rubber dome mundaneness. Some thought I was selling something. One gave me a disgusted look and walked out when I said they cost over $100.

1 - Model M
2-3 Cherry Brown or Topre
4 - Cherry Blue, they liked it but side by side preferred the others
5 - Rubber domes
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 25 November 2009, 12:31:04: Yes, I was shocked. You'd think a group of developers, network admins and help desk people would jump at the chance to try several hundred dollars worth of mechanical and vintage goodness.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 25 November 2009, 12:33:26: Quote from: didjamatic;136233
Well, only 3 people actually tested them all and gave feedback. Most people just left and wandered back to their rubber dome mundaneness. Some thought I was selling something. One gave me a disgusted look and walked out when I said they cost over $100.

1 - Model M
2-3 Cherry Brown or Topre
4 - Cherry Blue, they liked it but side by side preferred the others
5 - Rubber domes

Awe, that's a shame. It really shows how cynical people are today. That's what you get when you bombard a society with spam constantly. lol
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 25 November 2009, 13:00:30: Quote from: didjamatic;136233
Some thought I was selling something. One gave me a disgusted look and walked out when I said they cost over $100.

hilarious
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 29 November 2009, 11:34:52: Quote from: itlnstln;134022
My Northgate has complicated white Alps.

Ditto. I'm tentatively categorizing my new blue Cherries in the same category as the Northgate white Alps; perhaps continued exposure to the blues will introduce subtle differences other than their (higher pitched) sound and (lighter) touch.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 29 November 2009, 11:45:52: Are they as light as an old Quietkey?
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Sun, 29 November 2009, 12:00:32: I think that list looks fine. Nothing too crazy like the layout of the HHKB. That might be a variable for them to either like or not like the keyboard over rating the switches themselves.
Title: Keyboard Shootout
Post by: ricercar on Sun, 29 November 2009, 12:32:56: Quote from: microsoft windows;137151
Are they as light as an old Quietkey?

I've never had the pleasure of a Quietkey.

My blue Cherries are perhaps the lightest touch of my mechanical switch experience. Cherry browns are supposed to be lighter, but my Scorpius M10 blues feel lighter than my Kinesis browns. YMMV.