The 122's and the rubber dome M's.
Not really, no? Most Model M's you see listed are PS2 and should work fine on modern PCs, and only require the usage of a PS2 to USB converter in order for them to work. There are SSK and Trackpoint variants but they are quite a bit more expensive and rarer to find.
I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?Way less prevalent than people make it out to be. I've only had one (out of what, eight or nine?) Model M with a significant number of rivets popped (17) and even that worked. Even my (presumed) prototype, hand-riveted M from '85 didn't lose more than two IIRC.
And also, I presume, the models without lock lights use the XT connection and would require a converter to work on a more modern computer?Nope, work fine with AT/PS2 :) .
"Which Model M to Avoid"
Any you can't use. The difference between older and newer Model Ms is quite overhyped IMO.I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?Way less prevalent than people make it out to be. I've only had one (out of what, eight or nine?) Model M with a significant number of rivets popped (17) and even that worked. Even my (presumed) prototype, hand-riveted M from '85 didn't lose more than two IIRC.
QuoteAnd also, I presume, the models without lock lights use the XT connection and would require a converter to work on a more modern computer?Nope, work fine with AT/PS2 :) .
I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?
It's impossible to predict accurately or even vaguely how many rivets a keyboard will be missing, but I haven't found a single one yet that was defunct because of rivets. Even the two (disintegrated) Ms I found recently were both only missing one rivet, and those were grey-label ones of which the cases were completely broken! (one was even missing the controller)"Which Model M to Avoid"
Any you can't use. The difference between older and newer Model Ms is quite overhyped IMO.I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?Way less prevalent than people make it out to be. I've only had one (out of what, eight or nine?) Model M with a significant number of rivets popped (17) and even that worked. Even my (presumed) prototype, hand-riveted M from '85 didn't lose more than two IIRC.
So the colours of the labels don't really matter; that's good to know.
Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?
I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident. I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?
What was your question?More
White Label 1391401 with white barrel frame:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/S5gtvds.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bdkEXjm.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/okiUIZQ.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/2Ag32rT.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/wgJjr63.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/JXIMsrX.jpg)
Blue Label 1391401 with Blue Underlay:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/95PJpw2.jpg)
Look at my gallery. it might help out.
I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident. I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?
What was your question?More
White Label 1391401 with white barrel frame:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/S5gtvds.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/bdkEXjm.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/okiUIZQ.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/2Ag32rT.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/wgJjr63.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/JXIMsrX.jpg)
Blue Label 1391401 with Blue Underlay:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/95PJpw2.jpg)
Look at my gallery. it might help out.
Well, as long as it doesn't require soldering, I think I'm up to the task.
I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident. I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.
I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?
I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident. I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.
I won't buy a Model M unless I know which model I'm buying. If the seller doesn't include an image of the label, I generally won't chance it.I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?
In my opinion, it's been blown out of proportion. The question is whether it affects performance to any practical degree.
Anyway, if you stick with a seller that advertises the keyboard as tested and working, and the label indicates it's a 1391401, you should be fine.
Good to know. :)Well, as long as it doesn't require soldering, I think I'm up to the task.
No soldering whatsoever.
Just remember if you go with a terminal board, it will cost you the price of the controller in addition to the price of the keyboard. The 102-key terminal boards may be had for considerably less than a 1401, and the controller will bump it up that much more.I actually contemplated this problem when I was considering the displaywriter board on []Bay that came up recently; the seller was from Britain, I believe.
The good news is, there are quite a few terminal boards out there in superior condition than the 1391401. You may discover you like it more than your F AT.I'm definitely open to that possibility, though the AT keyboard sets the bar high!
You never know!
If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them. They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.
Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden. The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them. They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.
If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.
Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden. The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them. They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.
If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.
I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.
Most people don't know the difference between a model anything and a $5 'free' keyboard. The ignorance is all around us.Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden. The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them. They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.
If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.
I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.
The thing that amazes me is how most of those people who used computers back in the eighties were willing to replace their trusty companions with 5$ keyboards of the lowest possible quality, too light, no key rollover, no tactility. Now there are some fine rubberdome keyboards, but those are exceptions mostly.
Most people don't know the difference between a model anything and a $5 'free' keyboard. The ignorance is all around us.Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden. The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them. They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.
If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.
I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.
That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Cherry Blues vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.See, I would consider someone that can differentiate and have a preference as someone who is getting into enthusiast territory. A good analogy is cars. Most people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and one that is just okay. But someone that is taking more than a casual interest may pick up on the differences. It doesn't take much for the casual interest to turn into enthusiasm--it might just require some time.
That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Cherry Blues vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.See, I would consider someone that can differentiate and have a preference as someone who is getting into enthusiast territory. A good analogy is cars. Most people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and one that is just okay. But someone that is taking more than a casual interest may pick up on the differences. It doesn't take much for the casual interest to turn into enthusiasm--it might just require some time.
So I forgot that there is ONE model M to avoid--the M2. Apparently this model does have significantly more issues than the regular M.
Thank you for the details. Great to know it's a pretty easy fix as some M2s can be had for much less than an M because of the known issue.So I forgot that there is ONE model M to avoid--the M2. Apparently this model does have significantly more issues than the regular M.
The significant problem it has over the standard M is the capacitor issue, which is easily fixed. I have heard some say they prefer the M2 over the M, but I'll disagree there. It's still better than a rubber dome, and a lightweight, smaller form factor full size buckling spring switch keyboard. No curve to the keyboard though.
That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Cherry Blues vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.See, I would consider someone that can differentiate and have a preference as someone who is getting into enthusiast territory. A good analogy is cars. Most people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and one that is just okay. But someone that is taking more than a casual interest may pick up on the differences. It doesn't take much for the casual interest to turn into enthusiasm--it might just require some time.
I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know. It would only take an investment of time and you would join the ranks. And car handling is also subjective too--I hate the way an Audi r8 feels in terms of steering. I gave the keys back on the test drive and said no thanks, no interested even though they were knocking $20k off on the price.
I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.
It was all about price. I don't think USB adoption helped either, as PS/2 ports started disappearing off motherboards again because of price.
I'm definitely considering that option seriously.It was all about price. I don't think USB adoption helped either, as PS/2 ports started disappearing off motherboards again because of price.
Model M's were over $200 new back then, too—in '90s dollars.
y11971alex: GH members own and enjoy every type of Model M that was made. Some require considerable modding to be usable (the KBs, I mean, not the members)—so knowing which Model M's to "avoid" depends on your experience level, and how much time and trouble you're prepared to spend on them.
Generally speaking, I recommend you take one of these two approaches:
APPROACH #1:
Buy some vintage IBM Model M's, part no. 1391401—the most common type, and compatible with modern PCs with the addition of a PS/2-to-USB converter.
I've had some experience when dealing with the seller of my Model F, but I'm definitely going to take this advice as the Model F cable wasn't removable, whereas it may be on the Model M.
Be sure they've been tested, unless you're prepared to fix or return them. Be sure they include SDL cables, unless you're prepared to buy some separately. If they're missing key caps, you can order replacements at ClickyKeyboards.com for $1 or $2 each.
While I did get a Belkin AT —> PS/2 and a Blue Cube from PS/2 —> USB for my F, I'll try to save some for my cousins' Ms.
When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:
(Attachment)
...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.
To be honest, my F arrived in such appalling condition that I took three hours to give it a thorough cleanup to restore it to condition that I thought fit for home use. During this endeavour, I relied on many guides that affable people here have made public.
Now comes the fun part. If your 1391401's have been typed on for 20-odd years—and most have—they'll be grimy, and you'll probably want to clean them. (The seller may say they're "clean", or that they've cleaned them—but that depends on their idea of "clean", and how much KB-cleaning experience they've had).
I bought a Filco key-puller just for this purpose!
At the very least, this involves pulling all the key caps and the one-piece (larger) keys. And NOT with a knife, screwdriver, or other household object that could damage them, but with a proper key-puller tool (about $10). And be careful removing the spacebar and other one-piece keys with stabilizer bars, so you don't damage the bars. Be sure to remove the bars from those keys before you wash them.
You should now soak the caps/keys in warm water and laundry detergent for 30 minutes, stirring occasionally; then rinse the caps thoroughly. Caps that were especially dirty may need extra wiping with alcohol or a spray cleaner.
If the surface under the keys is full of dust, hair, food crumbs, small office supplies, etc.—and it usually is—you'll want to:
(1.) Open the case, using a 5.5mm thin-walled hex driver (around $10–15 at electronics stores).
(2.) Vacuum the interior, which removes only part of the mess; then clean out the rest using Q-Tips and/or brushes dipped in alcohol. This can take as much as an hour.
If the case is dirty—and it usually is—you'll also want to carefully remove the entirely keyboard assembly, then wash the upper and lower halves of the case with warm water and dish soap. For stubborn marks, spray on some Windex, wait a couple of minutes, then scrub with a paper towel.
Let your parts dry overnight; you don't want to take any chance of water getting into the KB.
Now reassemble everything. Be sure to seat the controller properly, and that you've remounted all the keys so they move freely. Be sure to slide the stabilizer bars back into their clips as you reattach those keys; it may take a few tries. Voila.
When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:
...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.
When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:
...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.
A not insignificant portion of the time they don't work great. If you want to try to get by on the cheap with these first, go for it.
But know that you may have issues and just end up buying a higher quality adapter ala the bluecube.
When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:
...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.
A not insignificant portion of the time they don't work great. If you want to try to get by on the cheap with these first, go for it.
But know that you may have issues and just end up buying a higher quality adapter ala the bluecube.
I'll add this blurb (http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184) from clickykeyboards FAQ:
The vast majority of commonly available PS/2 to USB converters are simple passive ADAPTERS that simply change the plug shape to match the outlet. These ADAPTERS only function to connect the PS/2 wires to the approximate USB wires. Simple PS/2 to USB adapters do not use specific software drivers.
In general, most users having trouble connecting their keyboard to newer computers are looking for a PS/2 to USB signal CONVERTER. These devices use an integrated circuit (pre-programmed chip) to actively translate the PS/2 keyboard signal and convert it into a USB keyboard signal.
This allows the vintage PS/2 keyboard to be automatically recognized by the operating system as if it were a standard, modern USB keyboard. A well-designed active PS/2 to USB converter will use the built-in operating system drivers for a USB keyboard (for example in Microsoft Windows XP, kbdclass.sys and kbdhid.sys).
Are PS/2 ports really that uncommon? I seem to see them on most if not all of PCs in the house, and in a pair, that is.
My laptops, however, don't have them, with the exception of my ThinkPad that has a pair, on the docking station.
It's kinda strange having 2 keyboards and 2 mice at the desk!!
It's kinda strange having 2 keyboards and 2 mice at the desk!!
2 keyboards, yes, but I have used 2 mice for years. Too bad there don't seem to be any decent left-hand vertical mice (don't dredge up the horrible Evoluent!)
And, personally, the cheap-o PS/2 adapters have always worked fine for me, the odd shapes of the bulky adapters seem very problematic.
I agree. It seems that any level of enthusiasm for anything is preceded by an ability to perceive the details. And I think this ability is not something everyone nurtures in their life. I think you are exceptionally gifted in this area as I can't easily tell the difference between liquors, but can tell the difference between a 15mm and 16mm sway bar or different vintages of my buckling spring Ms. I wish I could perceive the whole world in such vivid detail like you seem to be able to. But it probably would just lead me to be an enthusiast on so many more topics, so I should be careful what I wish for. ;)I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.
In my opinion, it just depends on how perceptive you are. Further, while a devotee might be able to relay or express certain qualities more effectively than people with a casual interest, that hardly means a casual observer can't detect differences or form preferences. For example, I'm not crazy about liquor and rarely drink, but I can definitely perceive subtle (and not so subtle) differences between Cabo Wabo, Don Julio, Patron, and Jose Cuervo. And if I'm going to drink Tequila, I'd no doubt prefer Cabo Wabo. While my ability to adequately express why I like it more than the others is somewhat less robust than, say, an avid drinker, it doesn't change the fact I'm able to differentiate between the various brands and find that I prefer one over the others. But that's me.
I researched this a little while back as I've never had an issue with the two adapters I use (one a belkin and one a radio shack).
When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:
...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.
A not insignificant portion of the time they don't work great. If you want to try to get by on the cheap with these first, go for it.
But know that you may have issues and just end up buying a higher quality adapter ala the bluecube.
At the very least, this involves pulling all the key caps and the one-piece (larger) keys. And NOT with a knife, screwdriver, or other household object that could damage them, but with a proper key-puller tool (about $10).I found an old credit card to be great for popping off the one-piece keys. The credit card will flex if there's too much force, so there's less chance of breaking anything. :thumb:
• They're more compact (but then, compared to an IBM, almost anything is).
I agree. It seems that any level of enthusiasm for anything is preceded by an ability to perceive the details. And I think this ability is not something everyone nurtures in their life. I think you are exceptionally gifted in this area as I can't easily tell the difference between liquors, but can tell the difference between a 15mm and 16mm sway bar or different vintages of my buckling spring Ms. I wish I could perceive the whole world in such vivid detail like you seem to be able to. But it probably would just lead me to be an enthusiast on so many more topics, so I should be careful what I wish for. ;)I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.
In my opinion, it just depends on how perceptive you are. Further, while a devotee might be able to relay or express certain qualities more effectively than people with a casual interest, that hardly means a casual observer can't detect differences or form preferences. For example, I'm not crazy about liquor and rarely drink, but I can definitely perceive subtle (and not so subtle) differences between Cabo Wabo, Don Julio, Patron, and Jose Cuervo. And if I'm going to drink Tequila, I'd no doubt prefer Cabo Wabo. While my ability to adequately express why I like it more than the others is somewhat less robust than, say, an avid drinker, it doesn't change the fact I'm able to differentiate between the various brands and find that I prefer one over the others. But that's me.
This is always fun, lol. We actually used a dual kb/mouse setup in one of the companies I owned. There was a local kb/mouse at the system and I could also control it via a usb kvm.
It's kinda strange having 2 keyboards and 2 mice at the desk!!
2 keyboards, yes, but I have used 2 mice for years. Too bad there don't seem to be any decent left-hand vertical mice (don't dredge up the horrible Evoluent!)
And, personally, the cheap-o PS/2 adapters have always worked fine for me, the odd shapes of the bulky adapters seem very problematic.
This one was probably the smallest, least bulky active adapter I have seen. And yes, it works fine for both peripherals. The "straight line" cheap-o's never have worked properly for my SDL Model M keyboards.
I did have fun with a post of my old BTC rubberdome keyboard. It actually DID work with the cheap-o's only if I had the active adapter in the line. Otherwise, it wouldn't work at all.
Seems to work the opposite for me. It would be interesting to somehow 'test' the general public, although there's probably already some research out there on it as it would be quite useful for product marketing.I agree. It seems that any level of enthusiasm for anything is preceded by an ability to perceive the details. And I think this ability is not something everyone nurtures in their life. I think you are exceptionally gifted in this area as I can't easily tell the difference between liquors, but can tell the difference between a 15mm and 16mm sway bar or different vintages of my buckling spring Ms. I wish I could perceive the whole world in such vivid detail like you seem to be able to. But it probably would just lead me to be an enthusiast on so many more topics, so I should be careful what I wish for. ;)I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.
In my opinion, it just depends on how perceptive you are. Further, while a devotee might be able to relay or express certain qualities more effectively than people with a casual interest, that hardly means a casual observer can't detect differences or form preferences. For example, I'm not crazy about liquor and rarely drink, but I can definitely perceive subtle (and not so subtle) differences between Cabo Wabo, Don Julio, Patron, and Jose Cuervo. And if I'm going to drink Tequila, I'd no doubt prefer Cabo Wabo. While my ability to adequately express why I like it more than the others is somewhat less robust than, say, an avid drinker, it doesn't change the fact I'm able to differentiate between the various brands and find that I prefer one over the others. But that's me.
In my opinion, I don't think perceptiveness tends to lead to enthusiasm anymore than it tends to lead to aversion.
Seems to work the opposite for me. It would be interesting to somehow 'test' the general public, although there's probably already some research out there on it as it would be quite useful for product marketing.I agree. It seems that any level of enthusiasm for anything is preceded by an ability to perceive the details. And I think this ability is not something everyone nurtures in their life. I think you are exceptionally gifted in this area as I can't easily tell the difference between liquors, but can tell the difference between a 15mm and 16mm sway bar or different vintages of my buckling spring Ms. I wish I could perceive the whole world in such vivid detail like you seem to be able to. But it probably would just lead me to be an enthusiast on so many more topics, so I should be careful what I wish for. ;)I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.
In my opinion, it just depends on how perceptive you are. Further, while a devotee might be able to relay or express certain qualities more effectively than people with a casual interest, that hardly means a casual observer can't detect differences or form preferences. For example, I'm not crazy about liquor and rarely drink, but I can definitely perceive subtle (and not so subtle) differences between Cabo Wabo, Don Julio, Patron, and Jose Cuervo. And if I'm going to drink Tequila, I'd no doubt prefer Cabo Wabo. While my ability to adequately express why I like it more than the others is somewhat less robust than, say, an avid drinker, it doesn't change the fact I'm able to differentiate between the various brands and find that I prefer one over the others. But that's me.
In my opinion, I don't think perceptiveness tends to lead to enthusiasm anymore than it tends to lead to aversion.
I agree. Trying to find a pattern would probably be tough and inconclusive since it depends so much on the individual.Seems to work the opposite for me. It would be interesting to somehow 'test' the general public, although there's probably already some research out there on it as it would be quite useful for product marketing.I agree. It seems that any level of enthusiasm for anything is preceded by an ability to perceive the details. And I think this ability is not something everyone nurtures in their life. I think you are exceptionally gifted in this area as I can't easily tell the difference between liquors, but can tell the difference between a 15mm and 16mm sway bar or different vintages of my buckling spring Ms. I wish I could perceive the whole world in such vivid detail like you seem to be able to. But it probably would just lead me to be an enthusiast on so many more topics, so I should be careful what I wish for. ;)I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M. I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference.I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.
I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'. Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.
An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.
That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.
An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.
In my opinion, it just depends on how perceptive you are. Further, while a devotee might be able to relay or express certain qualities more effectively than people with a casual interest, that hardly means a casual observer can't detect differences or form preferences. For example, I'm not crazy about liquor and rarely drink, but I can definitely perceive subtle (and not so subtle) differences between Cabo Wabo, Don Julio, Patron, and Jose Cuervo. And if I'm going to drink Tequila, I'd no doubt prefer Cabo Wabo. While my ability to adequately express why I like it more than the others is somewhat less robust than, say, an avid drinker, it doesn't change the fact I'm able to differentiate between the various brands and find that I prefer one over the others. But that's me.
In my opinion, I don't think perceptiveness tends to lead to enthusiasm anymore than it tends to lead to aversion.
I'm no expert, but in my opinion I tend to think it has a lot to do with the type of person you are in general. Everyone is different and have different standards, thus the scales appear to be weighted differently from person to person. Some people are natural enthusiasts, in my opinion.
I'm no expert, but in my opinion I tend to think it has a lot to do with the type of person you are in general. Everyone is different and have different standards, thus the scales appear to be weighted differently from person to person. Some people are natural enthusiasts, in my opinion.I agree. Trying to find a pattern would probably be tough and inconclusive since it depends so much on the individual.
It's interesting that you mention some people are natural enthusiasts. What qualities have you observed in these natural enthusiasts that would 'give them away'? I think I subconsciously look for these qualities when meeting people but have no idea what they are.
Are PS/2 ports really that uncommon? I seem to see them on most if not all of PCs in the house, and in a pair, that is.
My laptops, however, don't have them, with the exception of my ThinkPad that has a pair, on the docking station.
What I found was that while powering an M was a bit of a problem in the past, it's generally a non-issue these days. There's a trendnet one available on amazon for under $10 that has a lot of reviews of model M owners happy with it working right out of the box:
http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-USB-1-1-Converter-TU-PS2/product-reviews/B0007T27HI/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewopt_kywd?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=byRankDescending&pageNumber=1&filterByKeyword=ibm
Interesting. I've observed some of the same characteristics, but also have found introvertedness, shyness, and eccentricity to be some tell-tale characteristics of enthusiasts.I'm no expert, but in my opinion I tend to think it has a lot to do with the type of person you are in general. Everyone is different and have different standards, thus the scales appear to be weighted differently from person to person. Some people are natural enthusiasts, in my opinion.I agree. Trying to find a pattern would probably be tough and inconclusive since it depends so much on the individual.
It's interesting that you mention some people are natural enthusiasts. What qualities have you observed in these natural enthusiasts that would 'give them away'? I think I subconsciously look for these qualities when meeting people but have no idea what they are.
Well, for example, I consider my mother a naturally enthusiastic person. In her case, she tends to be fairly positive, outgoing, and a bit of a neophile. Do those qualities apply to all natural enthusiasts? I don't know, but it tends to apply to the people I've met that I consider naturally enthusiastic.
Not my experience that I'm extrapolating from, but from what I read on various sites when researching the issue since I never ran into it. I have the 'correct' belkin adapters and I never found any dialogue about the radio shack one, but almost all the conversations I read about adapter issues were from about 5 years ago or more. The more current conversations didn't seem to have issues with even generic adapters although I would probably lean towards a known company vs generic (my personal preference only). In all likelihood, the design that everyone is copying now already takes into account the additional ampage requirements hence why the issue seems to no longer be an issue.
What I found was that while powering an M was a bit of a problem in the past, it's generally a non-issue these days. There's a trendnet one available on amazon for under $10 that has a lot of reviews of model M owners happy with it working right out of the box:
http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-USB-1-1-Converter-TU-PS2/product-reviews/B0007T27HI/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewopt_kywd?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=byRankDescending&pageNumber=1&filterByKeyword=ibm
Be careful on extrapolating your experience to the general case. People still have problems with the cheapo Y adapters.
I have a two laptops in front of me that won't play well with a cheapo adapter. And if you're going to spend $10 shipped for that trendnet (which may be active, swore that some of those Y's are) you might as well spring for a bluecube or that short active adapter contained within a cable that orihalcon and others sell.
Interesting. I've observed some of the same characteristics, but also have found introvertedness, shyness, and eccentricity to be some tell-tale characteristics of enthusiasts.I'm no expert, but in my opinion I tend to think it has a lot to do with the type of person you are in general. Everyone is different and have different standards, thus the scales appear to be weighted differently from person to person. Some people are natural enthusiasts, in my opinion.I agree. Trying to find a pattern would probably be tough and inconclusive since it depends so much on the individual.
It's interesting that you mention some people are natural enthusiasts. What qualities have you observed in these natural enthusiasts that would 'give them away'? I think I subconsciously look for these qualities when meeting people but have no idea what they are.
Well, for example, I consider my mother a naturally enthusiastic person. In her case, she tends to be fairly positive, outgoing, and a bit of a neophile. Do those qualities apply to all natural enthusiasts? I don't know, but it tends to apply to the people I've met that I consider naturally enthusiastic.
It's pretty common in the car enthusiast genre--specifically illegal street racing.Interesting. I've observed some of the same characteristics, but also have found introvertedness, shyness, and eccentricity to be some tell-tale characteristics of enthusiasts.I'm no expert, but in my opinion I tend to think it has a lot to do with the type of person you are in general. Everyone is different and have different standards, thus the scales appear to be weighted differently from person to person. Some people are natural enthusiasts, in my opinion.I agree. Trying to find a pattern would probably be tough and inconclusive since it depends so much on the individual.
It's interesting that you mention some people are natural enthusiasts. What qualities have you observed in these natural enthusiasts that would 'give them away'? I think I subconsciously look for these qualities when meeting people but have no idea what they are.
Well, for example, I consider my mother a naturally enthusiastic person. In her case, she tends to be fairly positive, outgoing, and a bit of a neophile. Do those qualities apply to all natural enthusiasts? I don't know, but it tends to apply to the people I've met that I consider naturally enthusiastic.
Personally, I haven't met very many shy, naturally enthusiastic people.
It's pretty common in the car enthusiast genre--specifically illegal street racing.
You don't need to quote every post in the thread when you're replying...
You don't need to quote every post in the thread when you're replying...Sorry about that. Sometimes it's hard to cut out the other quotes properly, so I just leave them rather than having an editing mess.
I don't doubt this is true in your experience. I'd generally consider mechanics to be car enthusiasts, and although I've met a fair share throughout my life, there aren't many that struck me as 'natural' enthusiasts, even though they tended to love cars. In fact, a few struck me as somewhat cynical. But that's just my experience.You're actually dead-on on mechanics. They usually start in the field because of a love for cars, but then lose their passion once their love becomes 'work'. The end result is the cynicism.
This thread is officially derailed.Agreed, but some great discussion as usual anyways. :thumb:
depending on the family members' level of interest in keyboards and the subtlety of differences between the F and M to the non-enthusiast, a Unicomp M might be just fine.
My wife and son are about as enthusiastic about keyboards as a chicken walking into KFC...