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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: tsv on Fri, 20 November 2009, 04:53:29

Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: tsv on Fri, 20 November 2009, 04:53:29: Due to my own astounding levels of stupidity I managed to throw a mug of coffee over my IBM Model M13...

I tipped it upside down and unplugged it immediately, and mopped up everything under the keys. Still not working, however. A lot of it works fine, but some keys are sending two characters. For example, 'n' sends 'nm' and Space sends Space, Enter.

Any advice? Should I try washing it properly and then thoroughly drying it, or is that not a good idea?

Thank you!
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: lmnop on Fri, 20 November 2009, 05:04:53: yeah. decaf.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 05:16:52: Quote from: lmnop;134434
yeah. decaf.

*golf clap*

but seriously, why did you plug it back it?

The few times i've spilled liquid on a keyboard, it was just a matter of cleaning the stuff off and giving it SEVERAL DAYS to dry before plugging the thing back in.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: tsv on Fri, 20 November 2009, 05:25:58: I gave it 24 hours, I assumed that would be enough :-S
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: lmnop on Fri, 20 November 2009, 05:27:07: first rule of geekhack. lmnop = christine = debra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74tubLUhiLI).

it's not like it wasn't coming. ripster would of picked it up eventually only involving lego, macaulay culkin and a coffee cup. better to be grilled by a pretty face than a dirty old man :)

PS, just breaking your balls. sorry about your keyboard.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 20 November 2009, 10:45:45: So much for Lexmark's drainage channels...
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: wordfool on Fri, 20 November 2009, 12:07:54: It might be worth rinsing the soggy parts with distilled water to avoid dry coffee residue (and smell).
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 12:11:24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDh_gjL586A
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: lmnop on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:09:05: Airplane a classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk74WprmZxY
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: wordfool on Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:41:54: I sorta mean rinsing after first dismantling so the springs and everything else could be dried relatively quickly with a hairdrier or something. BUt then again I guess it would be better to avoid all further contact with liquids.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: bbranigin on Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:17:33: what keyboard is that Ripster?
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: bbranigin on Fri, 20 November 2009, 16:08:44: nah, was just digging the look of the card reader :)
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 November 2009, 16:12:08: If you like the card reader, you can look for a G80-8100. It has a trackpad and MX switches, but I think most of them have Cherry blacks.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 20 November 2009, 20:25:05: Would a card reader need a driver? Or is it plug-n-play with newer versions of Windows?
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 20 November 2009, 21:20:24: My Cherry cardreader doesn't need a driver on XP/Vista/7/Macos. When I swipe a card, the cardinfo on the mag stripe simply comes out as if I was typing it. My guess is that any software that comes with a card reader keyboard is simply an app that parses the string into separate blocks.

EDIT:
Oh oh. He's got the number of the beast.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5842&d=1258773896)
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: arfink on Fri, 20 November 2009, 21:58:05: I think it'd be cool to have one and just chop the card reader out. And then mod the card reader to be able to program cards too. A nice cheap device, for doing things which you can probably figure out for yourself.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 21 November 2009, 13:25:48: I don't know what to say besides giving some days to dry out and try it again, and if it still does work, to open it and see where the problem is.

Not trying to rub it in, but this may be the last time you bring a cup of coffee close to your keyboard.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 13:37:00: I want to get a card reader keyboard someday. I wonder what will happen if I swipe one of those fake credit cards that comes in the mail? Maybe it'll blow up the computer.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Sat, 21 November 2009, 13:41:53: Quote from: ricercar;134793
My Cherry cardreader doesn't need a driver on XP/Vista/7/Macos. When I swipe a card, the cardinfo on the mag stripe simply comes out as if I was typing it. My guess is that any software that comes with a card reader keyboard is simply an app that parses the string into separate blocks.

EDIT:
Oh oh. He's got the number of the beast.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5842&d=1258773896)

yeah, they're pretty simple like that, similar to a barcode reader it's just pnp
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 18:15:28: I'm adding a card reader keyboard to my wish list.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 21 November 2009, 19:38:31: I know the horse has already bolted, but one of these (http://lifehacker.com/5398039/auto+sealing-insulated-mug-keeps-your-drink-toasty-wont-spill) would be a perfect accessory for any valued keyboard.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 21 November 2009, 19:59:31: There's the advantage of drainage channels in the Lexmark Model M's.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: roaduck on Sun, 22 November 2009, 02:39:58: Quote from: tsv;134432
Due to my own astounding levels of stupidity I managed to throw a mug of coffee over my IBM Model M13...

I tipped it upside down and unplugged it immediately, and mopped up everything under the keys. Still not working, however. A lot of it works fine, but some keys are sending two characters. For example, 'n' sends 'nm' and Space sends Space, Enter.

Any advice? Should I try washing it properly and then thoroughly drying it, or is that not a good idea?

Thank you!

Hello tsv sorry to hear about your accident with your keyboard.

I have been very lucky and not spilt liquid on my pc or keyboard in ten years despite being very drunk sometimes and having a vodka and orange above my keyboard.

What I do now is place a short-sided whisky tumbler inside a plastic tub that is higher than the glass on my desk so if it does spill it's not tears and tantrums time.

My advice is to dry it naturally by placing it vertically so that the F function keys are uppermost.

I have tried to speed dry electronics and most of the time I was not successful.If one uses a hairdryer for instance; the result could be the liquid being pushed further into the mechanism when on cold and on hot some of the steam generated inside will have nowhere to go and could spread the trapped moisture over a larger area in the appliance causing more damage.

You have to be very patient and avoid the temptation to plug it back in after a couple of days because this could result in an internal short and make it a right-off if it's not totally dry inside the case.

Give it a couple of weeks on its side as the liquids can take a long time to subside.Or place it in a string bag on a washing line in a light breeze outside or inside hung up in a dry room (with no house plants) because of moisture.

Failing that you could get a decent refurbished IBM model M for £43.13 delivered to the British mainland in 2 days flat from :

http://www.datarecovered.com

R & R DMS Ltd
R&R House
Normandy Lane
Stratton Business Park
Biggleswade
Bedfordshire
SG18 8QB
UK

Telephone +44 (0) 1767 319888
24hr Hotline +44 (0) 845 257 8181
Fax +44 (0) 1767 319889

IBM 1391406 - total price including VAT and P&P - £43.13

£25.00 for kb + £12.50 delivery + VAT tax

Ask for Andy Kempster or John Hyde
-----------------------------------------

It comes in a massive box with plenty of packing material and the service is exemplary.I got my UK layout 1391406 there and it's in wonderful condition; a pleasure to type on.

The quickest service is by giving your debit/credit card details over the phone rather than emailing - it's virtually overnight delivery.

Don't forget to ask about what model M's they have in stock and whether they come with a SDK to PS/2 discrete or captive cable.If you want a model F or another M13 I can source some other places but the cost could be up to £70 odd.I prefer to use b2b computer parts companies because generally there is better service, communication and accountability.Ebay is a lottery and I wouldn't buy anything from it although I have advertised stuff on it and bought gear for other people.

Good luck with drying out your M13 tsv and welcome to the forum.

See my other posts for places with good refurbished IBM model M's.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7210 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7210)

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7326 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7326)

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7335 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7335)

Where I would try in the first instance :
http://www.datarecovered.com (http://www.datarecovered.com)
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 22 November 2009, 08:58:53: Quote from: microsoft windows;135106
There's the advantage of drainage channels in the Lexmark Model M's.

M13s have drainage channels. The Trackpoint coming through the upper plate probably provides a point of entry for liquids to get into the membrane.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 22 November 2009, 09:39:46: To tsv,

You can try what some do when their cellphone fell into water. Place the keyboard in container that can be closed air tight together with rice, and then close the container as air tight as you can and leave it for a couple of days. The rice will suck all the humidity. Apprantly this trick works with cellphone, so why not try it for keyboards as well.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 22 November 2009, 11:11:29: Quote from: ripster;135211
I also have like a quart of those silica gel packets that you get with just about any electronics junk and could be used for this as well. I toss them in a drawer that holds my camera lenses.

Can buy on Ebay.

Or from your local pet shop/supermarket. Look for "pearl" type cat litter. It's just silica gel.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: roaduck on Mon, 23 November 2009, 00:16:28: Quote from: ripster;135211
Good tip, I also have like a quart of those silica gel packets that you get with just about any electronics junk and could be used for this as well. I toss them in a drawer that holds my camera lenses.

Can buy on Ebay. They even sell Nikon VINTAGE editions. Link. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-64XXXXX-F-RF-S-S2-S3-S4-SP-Nikon-Silica-Gel-Bag_W0QQitemZ250529691143QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item3a54bbb607)

The first things I thought about to try and save the kb is silica gel and rice.I would have thought that cat litter makes an excellent abrasive - not very wise in a moving part - it'll just sand it from the inside with just a tiny bit of trapped grit.

But if you can't totally disassemble the 'board I wouldn't use either.Rice powder and water make an excellent glue that will be a pure bastard to remove and silica gel can desicate and the small particles can expand in delicate areas and cause uneccessary damage if it's not in a sealed bag.

Both substances can make a bad problem worse if you can't get every bit of them out.

I've heard of freeze-drying and using a solvent like pure alcohol to drive out the moisture but these are specialisms I haven't used much personally.Perhaps there are tips on the net like for restoring valuable books and documents that have become water-damaged.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 23 November 2009, 02:42:11: Quote from: roaduck;135489
I would have thought that cat litter makes an excellent abrasive - not very wise in a moving part - it'll just sand it from the inside with just a tiny bit of trapped grit.

No, this type is made up of spheres of silica gel a few milimetres in diameter. It won't get inside a keyboard unless you grind it up first! It has to be the cheapest way to buy silica gel. Wrap it in cloth or newspaper if you really want to separate it from the item you are drying.

Remember that all those tiny bags of desiccant you've collected (from the boxes of electrical items you've bought) have been exposed to the air for a long time and have already done all the moisture absorbing they are going to do. Unless you dry them in the oven for several hours.

==========================

As an aside, a warning for anyone trying to repair a Logitech G15 Version 1 that has had a coffee spill. (They might google here.) You can't use a replacement membrane from the cheaper (and still available) G11. Yes, they seem identical apart from the LCD display. Yes, the membranes have identical connectors. But Logitech decided to make the matrix slightly different. If you swap the membranes you will find a handful of keys will have swapped positions. Not many, just enough to make the part completely bloody useless for a repair. I know, I just tried it. Thanks, Logitech!:frusty:
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: roaduck on Mon, 23 November 2009, 04:33:21: Quote from: Rajagra;135494
No, this type is made up of spheres of silica gel a few milimetres in diameter. It won't get inside a keyboard unless you grind it up first! It has to be the cheapest way to buy silica gel. Wrap it in cloth or newspaper if you really want to separate it from the item you are drying.

Oh right got you Rajagra - I thought that you meant the aggregate cat litter made of limestone etc.

Silica is brilliant if dried slowly in the oven and bagged in muslin like tea bags.

It's tricky to get the balance right - drying it out without damage.

I remember years ago I had a Sinclair pocket 2" crt telly that fell in the bath - I got a bad shock as the internal voltages were huge - I was shaking for quite a while afterwards.

After my bloody heart had slowed down I painted Polish rectified spirit (95% volume) alcohol on it a few times and it evaporated the water off over a weekend but pure alcohol is hard to find in Britain unless you have access to non-potable ethanol spirit used in industry with no residues.

UK rectified spirits only go up to about 79% volume and that's got too much water in it to do the job really.I bring my rectified spirit direct from Kracow because they don't export it and you can't import it into the UK because it's too strong.

Meths or surgical spirit would leave a residue from the resins in the wood-distilled methanol.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: erricrice on Mon, 23 November 2009, 12:05:48: Quote from: ripster;134653
It's a MY switch POS board from Cherry Corp. Specifically the G81-8000HPBUS.

You want it? I'm gonna be taking all the keys off so I'm not sure what to do with this and another NIB I have. The trick is getting cherry compatible keys for it though cheaply. Plus, I opened it up looking for interesting parts and it's pretty disappointing.

I'll take it! What do you want for it?
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Freezer on Mon, 23 November 2009, 14:16:57: Quote from: tsv;134432
Due to my own astounding levels of stupidity I managed to throw a mug of coffee over my IBM Model M13...

Any advice? Should I try washing it properly and then thoroughly drying it, or is that not a good idea?

It seems most of the suggestions are about drying the keyboard before using it. But since coffee is more than just water, if you evaporate off all the liquid you're still leaving behind residue.

I read the following somewhere on the Internet and the process seems sound to me. I have not tried this myself, only read about it. It's possible it could ruin your keyboard, but then your keyboard isn't exactly working now anyway.

1. Disassemble the keyboard, remove the keys, open the case, take out circuit boards, etc.

2. Wash all the plastic parts - something simple like mildly soapy water. Rinse well and let dry.

3. Place the circuit board with mechanical switches (I'm assuming the M13 has mechanical switches) into a plastic tub. Pour several containers of high-purity rubbing alcohol (a.k.a. isopropyl) over the keyboard to submerge. As the keyboard soaks, press each key multiple times.

4. Remove the keyboard and allow it to thoroughly dry. Because rubbing alcohol has a low evaporation temp is should evaporate quicker than water. Still with all the nooks and crannies, I would wait a day or more.

5. Reassemble the keyboard, cross your fingers, and give it a try.

As far as I know, isopropyl won't damage your keyboard and it will remove the remaining coffee solids. Isopropyl comes in different purities, I personally always buy the highest strength, 90%+. Lower percentages add more water which wouldn't be good in this case (could promote rust).

Good luck!
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: lmnop on Mon, 23 November 2009, 15:15:04: Mylar. I had plenty of that on my walls when I was in university I mean.. yeah :)
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 23 November 2009, 15:21:08: Quote from: lmnop;135650
Mylar. I had plenty of that on my walls when I was in university I mean.. yeah :)

XD

but did it have a matrix of pressure sensitive contact points
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: roaduck on Mon, 23 November 2009, 20:17:55: Quote from: ripster;135544
I was going to post some lame joke but then I remembered my brother in law died from electrocution doing a remodel. He had a power cord to a SawZall that was frayed. One hand on the cord and one on some grounded metal did it. We are talking maybe 2mm of exposed wiring.

Be careful people.

I definately second your sentiment regarding electrical safety ripster and I'm sorry to hear about your brother-in-law.

I've had quite a few jolts and near misses and I'm very lucky to be here.

Of course low micrometre mylar and pure alcohol don't mix but there are other solvents one could substitute instead like the high strength isopropyl alcohol already mentioned.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 23 November 2009, 20:44:41: Quote from: ripster;135640
Someday I'll pour alcohol on my Boscom mylar membranes and see if the traces disappear or not. No rush. Torturing a Boscom takes time.

Never use Windex to clean traces on mylar. That was the first time I had to pay retail to replace a laptop keyboard.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: tsv on Wed, 30 December 2009, 11:50:11: Sorry I totally forgot about this thread but once I remembered I thought I'd better come back and give the outcome for future reference!

I removed all keys and sat the board upside down in some warm water for about half an hour, then let it dry for about a week.

This seems to have done the trick! On plugging in, nothing worked, but after a while some keys started to kick in. The ones that still didn't began to after being taken off again and then replaced, and repeatedly hammered.

I am now left with only two problems;

1) The 0 on the NumPad occasionally sticks until another key is pressed.
2) The Enter on the NumPad refused to work other than occasionally sticking down. I then managed to accidentally pull the spring off. Is there a way of hooking the spring back on?

Thanks. It's good to have this thing working again! I'm lucky the dud keys are over on the NumPad, especially as that's not where the coffee was spilt.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 30 December 2009, 13:05:18: Here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5265) is a thread discussing removal/insertion of the springs. I seem to recall other threads that have continued the topic, you can probably find them if you search.

BTW, I followed my own advice and bought a Contigo AUTOSEAL® Stainless Steel Travel Mug (Vacuum Insulated) (http://www.gocontigo.com/autoseal-stainless-steel-travel-mug.html):

I got mine off ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190345043449), Americans can currently get it cheaper from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001RMGVU8).

Highly recommended. It isn't just spill-proof, it's airtight. No fiddling with caps when you want to drink, and you can't forget to close it when you put it down. When you pick it up the button to allow drink to flow falls naturally under your fingertips.

Because it's airtight it keeps drinks hot for longer too. If like me you drink black coffee you will need to add a drop of cold water to any boiling drink, otherwise it will remain dangerously hot for a long time (unlike the similar mug I used before that was not airtight, so took the edge off boiling drinks by the time I started drinking.)
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Langley on Wed, 30 December 2009, 13:21:16: If you've got enough time on your hands, q-tips and alcohol can clean almost anything. Having to clean orange juice out of a keyboard is why I stopped drinking it with pulp.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 31 December 2009, 09:02:16: Quote from: Langley;146546
If you've got enough time on your hands, q-tips and alcohol can clean almost anything. Having to clean orange juice out of a keyboard is why I stopped drinking it with pulp.

You say that as if you spill OJ in your keyboard on a regular basis.
Title: Spilt coffee! Advice?
Post by: Langley on Thu, 31 December 2009, 23:48:43: Quote from: itlnstln;146780
You say that as if you spill OJ in your keyboard on a regular basis.

That is an accurate assumption.