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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: maximumchris on Sat, 19 December 2015, 03:49:43

Title: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Sat, 19 December 2015, 03:49:43: First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm maximumchris from typeracer.
These are my profiles there for anyone who cares to check:
http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=maximumchris
http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=maximumchris2

A combined thirty thousand races on those two and yeah I had a lot of fun while typing there :D

I, however, have a big problem with my typing life now and am seriously looking for help.

The laptop keyboard that I used to type on, it broke :eek:, then I switched over to another laptop keyboard as a replacement but the keys are harder to type on this (look at my current last ten average :mad:) as they have a matte finish which makes the keys harder than the previous one which had glossy finish. I can't a laptop keyboard like the one I used to before.

So you see, I'm looking at other options like trying mechanical keyboard or topre but I have never tried any of those in my life - only used low travel keyboards like my laptop - so it might be a major problem starting off.

I wanted to ask around to know whether there are any low travel mechs or topre like my laptop keyboard. Cause I can type the fastest on low travel keys and as far as I know the mechs and topres are for comfort not for typing fast and it might be a major problem for someone like me who's only typed on a low travel and flat keys all his life.

What could be a better transition topre/mechanical keyboard for someone like me who wants to switch over from the standard scissor type keyboards where I could maintain an average as high as in the 160s and type multiple 200 wpms, so that I can still retain my speed?

I'm at my wits end with the flimsy laptop keyboard that I'm currently using which is nowhere near as good as the previous one and I really want a keyboard that would be a long term investment and that I could rely on, yet at the same time, not feel as enlarged or clunky as most of those big keyboards out there.

My primary aim is speed of course with low finger travel.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 19 December 2015, 03:53:18: Check the typematrix 2020 for scissor switch. but I think just get a topre board
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Sat, 19 December 2015, 03:58:04: Quote from: bocahgundul on Sat, 19 December 2015, 03:53:18
Check the typematrix 2020 for scissor switch. but I think just get a topre board

Nah, I can't do the typematrix as some of the keys that's placed on the right hand bit I type with my left hand, and vice versa. It has to be a normal keyboard.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 19 December 2015, 04:02:58: Alps switches have a high actuation point, you can press them further but you don't need to. The only current manufacturer of switches is Matias and the Ergo Pro is lovely but sounds like you want something smaller. Perhaps a Mini Quiet Pro (http://matias.ca/miniquietpro/pc/)?
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Sat, 19 December 2015, 09:46:42: Thanks for the reply! I checked out the Mini Quiet Pro video on youtube. And the keys appear to be really quiet. As per my liking, but I'm not completely sure how fast it will be in the long run for me since I'm aiming at maintaining and perhaps exceeding my current typing speed and I'd want the best keys possible for me to type on without necessarily overwhelming me by the key size and distance between keys.

Quiet Click or Real force "Topre" type of keyboards, what will I benefit from the most you reckon'?
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 19 December 2015, 10:27:53: Matias Quiet Clicks are the only switches I've typed on accurately without bottoming out - they are my favourite switch so far. Topre (HHKB) I always bottom out on, and if you press them all the way that's a lot of travel so it can't be fast but ideally you should try some out for yourself as my hands are not the same as yours.

Oh and key sizes are all the same size/spacing regardless of switch type, unless your laptop was smaller. But if you're used to a laptop with flat keys you might have problems adjusting to the contoured keysets you'll find on every board, you might be better off with DSA or all row 3 SA caps, but they're only made for Cherry MX switches... guess a Jailhouse modded MX blue board could work, if you're good at soldering and don't mind voiding the warranty instantly?
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: eternalmetal on Sat, 19 December 2015, 12:06:13: As much as I like my Topre board, I get the feeling that you would feel bogged down by the key travel and feel. After actuation, the force required to press the key drops off, and therefore feels very natural to bottom out entirely before going to the next key. I think this would be a tough board to like coming from scissor switches.

I would also imagine that mostly anybody who types at those speeds would be rather heavy handed with their key strokes, and would likely bottom out any switch, even if it actuates before bottoming out. Even the Matias Quiet Click switches have a total travel distance of 3.5mm (cherry and topre are 4mm), which is significantly greater than the 2mm of scissor and chiclet boards. You may not need to depress the key entirely on tactile switches, but nearly everyone does when they are trying to type fast. You could also try using a cherry switch with o-rings to reduce the key travel. Still, considering your emphasis on key travel, these may not be ideal options.

However, there is really no way to tell if you would like a mech until you try one. The nimbleness of the keys may surprise you despite the larger key travel in the specs, so perhaps key travel isnt as important as you think. I have never tried the Matias switches, but judging from the feedback ive heard about them it would probably be your best starting point. You may initially type slower, considering the feel of a laptop keyboard is much different from the more traditional keyboard layouts, but in the long run you may find it to be easier/faster to type on.

I would say whatever mech you settle on, give it a couple of weeks to get used to it. I know you are hoping to type like a speed demon seconds after taking the keyboard out of the box, but realistically you will have to get used to the setup and feels first (just like trying anything new and unfamiliar).
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02: What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56: Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.

I know that I prefer the Logitech Solar keyboard when it comes to scissor/laptop style keyboards. I haven't tried Alps (Matias) yet, but I do have a Logitech G410 on my home pc and it has a shorter throw and higher actuation point similar to alps. The switch feel like a slightly more tactile and higher actuating Cherry MX brown.

I think you also could try a Novatouch with silencing rings and maybe some G20 keycaps from signature plastics. The silencing rings will shorten the keystroke and the G20 caps will be a similar profile to a chiclet laptop style board.

The hardest thing for me when switching from a chiclet style board to a mechanical board is actually the thickness and angle of the keyboard. My Logitech solar keyboard is about as thick as a stuffed envelope. Whereas most mechanical boards have a severe angle and extremely thick case. It drives me nuts that no manufacturers make a flat mech case ( not counting full custom rigs here).

Actually I take that back--my G410 actually does sit flat when the feet are up, but the case is still really thick. Most people here would look down on the G410, which is a mistake IMO.

Man now I really want to try a Matias quiet click board lol
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: ctm on Sun, 20 December 2015, 09:26:25: I know some faster typists like using light linear switches. You may want to take a look at KBP V80 with Matias linear switches (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1326). They are very light and smooth.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 20 December 2015, 15:23:38: For speed, there is no replacement for laptop keys if you're used to them.

Because speed is less about the keyboard, and more about "technique" and muscle memory training that went into it.

So being "familiar" with the keyboard is more important than the keyboard itself.

I'd recommend just to keep buying the same keyboard you've been using, replacement laptop keyboards are really cheap on ebay.. So you can just keep buying them without denting the wallet much.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: SamirD on Mon, 21 December 2015, 05:30:16: Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.
Same here. If we knew the tool you were using, we could recommend something similar or better.

I'm in Bangalore right now btw.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Wed, 23 December 2015, 11:27:26: Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.

Quote from: SamirD on Mon, 21 December 2015, 05:30:16
Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.
Same here. If we knew the tool you were using, we could recommend something similar or better.

I'm in Bangalore right now btw.

Sorry for the delayed reply. This is the keyboard I used before. Hardly any spaces between keys you see.

(http://s14.postimg.org/8v1acbg29/compaq610.jpg)

As things stand now, I'm thinking or either purchasing the Matias Quiet click as recommended on these boards or the below one, which appears to be quite similar to my previous laptop keyboard with but slightly spaced out keys.
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Wireless-Elite-Keyboard-v2/dp/B005HNHRA6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450891596&sr=8-1&keywords=hp+elite+keyboards+2

Which one would you guys recommend or are there any other options for me?
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Wed, 23 December 2015, 11:31:00: Quote from: ctm on Sun, 20 December 2015, 09:26:25
I know some faster typists like using light linear switches. You may want to take a look at KBP V80 with Matias linear switches (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1326). They are very light and smooth.

What are linear switches? Don't know how exactly this would be similar to my laptop keyboard?
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: suicidal_orange on Wed, 23 December 2015, 11:41:59: Quote from: maximumchris on Wed, 23 December 2015, 11:31:00
What are linear switches? Don't know how exactly this would be similar to my laptop keyboard?

Linear means the keypress requires the same amount of pressure all the way down, tactile switches (like the Quiet Click) have a little bump so you have to push a bit harder to get past it then it gets easier. The bump is designed so you know when the press has registered and stop pressing, whereas with a light linear switch you either bottom out or risk the press not registering if you didn't go far enough.

Laptop switches don't have enough travel to be anything but linear, and you'll be used to always bottoming out as that's what you have to do with them.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: SamirD on Thu, 24 December 2015, 05:27:54: Quote from: maximumchris on Wed, 23 December 2015, 11:27:26
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.

Quote from: SamirD on Mon, 21 December 2015, 05:30:16
Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.
Same here. If we knew the tool you were using, we could recommend something similar or better.

I'm in Bangalore right now btw.

Sorry for the delayed reply. This is the keyboard I used before. Hardly any spaces between keys you see.

Show Image
(http://s14.postimg.org/8v1acbg29/compaq610.jpg)

As things stand now, I'm thinking or either purchasing the Matias Quiet click as recommended on these boards or the below one, which appears to be quite similar to my previous laptop keyboard with but slightly spaced out keys.
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Wireless-Elite-Keyboard-v2/dp/B005HNHRA6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450891596&sr=8-1&keywords=hp+elite+keyboards+2

Which one would you guys recommend or are there any other options for me?
Okay this is a start. What is the model number of the laptop that it is attached to? From that, we can research exactly what you have been typing on and make much better suggestions.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Thu, 24 December 2015, 06:12:09: My laptop keyboard model no. is a compaq 610.
Apparently it's not in production anymore so all keyboard replacements available are like copies and manufactured in china that too with the rough matte finish. :(

Quote from: SamirD on Thu, 24 December 2015, 05:27:54
Quote from: maximumchris on Wed, 23 December 2015, 11:27:26
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.

Quote from: SamirD on Mon, 21 December 2015, 05:30:16
Quote from: quasistellar on Sun, 20 December 2015, 02:07:56
Quote from: MeltingTeeth on Sat, 19 December 2015, 16:10:02
What laptop keyboard did you use before? Lenovo has stand alone scissor keyboards.

Ditto his question.
Same here. If we knew the tool you were using, we could recommend something similar or better.

I'm in Bangalore right now btw.

Sorry for the delayed reply. This is the keyboard I used before. Hardly any spaces between keys you see.

Show Image
(http://s14.postimg.org/8v1acbg29/compaq610.jpg)

As things stand now, I'm thinking or either purchasing the Matias Quiet click as recommended on these boards or the below one, which appears to be quite similar to my previous laptop keyboard with but slightly spaced out keys.
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Wireless-Elite-Keyboard-v2/dp/B005HNHRA6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450891596&sr=8-1&keywords=hp+elite+keyboards+2

Which one would you guys recommend or are there any other options for me?
Okay this is a start. What is the model number of the laptop that it is attached to? From that, we can research exactly what you have been typing on and make much better suggestions.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: SamirD on Thu, 24 December 2015, 06:43:37: Here's a link to the service manual for your laptop. http://tim.id.au/laptops/hp/compaq%20610%20615.pdf

In it, it shows exactly how to replace the keyboard as well as the appropriate HP part numbers for the part. I think replacing what you know works would be the best bet while at the same time research external keyboards that might be a good fit for you.

One source I would look into is HPs regular full size keyboards that have the same keycap look as your laptop keyboard. These may be the perfect replacement. I actually have an HP laptop (4410t) that is remarkably similar to your compaq 610. If the keyboard is the same design as what you have been using, I can see why you're so fast on it as well as why it finally died. You may also want to look into the logitech keyboards that have a slim design as those switches feel remarkably similar to my HP laptop's keyboard.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: Vittra on Thu, 24 December 2015, 08:04:52: Pursuing a replacement is the best option if at all possible.

If you want to try a mech kb, I actually think your second option should be Cherry MX Red switches, possibly with silencing rings to reduce travel further.

Reasons:

1) You are used to bottoming out switches, so nothing tactile really makes any sense. When pursuing absolute speed it is very hard to strive for only sufficient depression to actuate the switch and nothing more.

2) You are also used to light switches, and mx reds are most certainly are that.

3) Because you want the shortest travel distance possible, the silencing rings will reduce travel rather than just using the board stock.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: maximumchris on Sat, 26 December 2015, 04:03:33: Thanks for the input, guys.
After reading through what you guys have suggested and after some research of my own, I have decided not to go for an-all out mechanical keyboard or a topre as someone who never typed on them before, I don't really need the tactile feedback those have to offer.

So, at this point, I've narrowed down my keyboard search tentatively to a mechanical keyboard with either the gateron reds (as I've heard the quality is better than Cherry MX Reds) or one with the new matias linear switches, both being light linear switches which is what I'm going for. KBParadise has both on offer with the Matias linear being priced at $20 higher.

I'd want an opinion from someone who has used both on how they compare against each other and which would they recommend.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: E3E on Sun, 27 December 2015, 17:01:27: Quote from: maximumchris on Sat, 26 December 2015, 04:03:33
Thanks for the input, guys.
After reading through what you guys have suggested and after some research of my own, I have decided not to go for an-all out mechanical keyboard or a topre as someone who never typed on them before, I don't really need the tactile feedback those have to offer.

So, at this point, I've narrowed down my keyboard search tentatively to a mechanical keyboard with either the gateron reds (as I've heard the quality is better than Cherry MX Reds) or one with the new matias linear switches, both being light linear switches which is what I'm going for. KBParadise has both on offer with the Matias linear being priced at $20 higher.

I'd want an opinion from someone who has used both on how they compare against each other and which would they recommend.

Alright, I'm someone who's traditionally used mainly laptop keyboards with scissor switches before my foray into the mechanical keyboard world and community here at GeekHack and such. I have to counter what most people are saying about linear switches being the best option as a jump from your laptop keyboard.

Scissor switches and indeed all rubber domes are tactile, not linear. Linear switches are unique to the mechanical keyboard world. It is true though, that by their nature, domes over membrane circuits require bottoming out. Because the domes always collapse before this point, it gives them a tactile sensation. Just my two cents.

In my experience, the closest feel I've ever gotten to scissor switches has been using Cherry MX clears with o-rings to lower the travel distance. It feels quite similar and even has a thocky sound to it (the o-rings' pliability also lends a similar sensation upon bottoming out). Granted, I used 62g gold springs and lubed up the clears which essentially makes them "ergo clears," but that is a little beyond entry level stuff.

I'd recommend MX clears with o-rings for the closest feel. I have not tried Topre, but they might be a pleasant jump if you ever decide to go to something a little more exotic than your typical laptop board. The travel is definitely going to be more than a scissor switch though.

And yes, I still type on scissor switches myself, and I love them, despite being pretty deep into mechanical keyboards! :3
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: crj3012 on Wed, 30 December 2015, 13:48:46: You could go for a dental banded Topre that is dental banded with thick dental bands.
Title: Re: Need suggestions/help - Low travel mechanical/topre keyboard, please
Post by: Hyde on Thu, 31 December 2015, 03:31:40: Go for Logitech Illuminated Keyboard. Its a very good scissor switch keyboard.

It comes with Logitech's PerfectStroke tech.

To be honest, as much as I like MX Red but I still don't think it's what you're looking for. Neither is Matias Quiet Pro (I own both).