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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: decker on Sat, 02 January 2016, 03:06:08

Title: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: decker on Sat, 02 January 2016, 03:06:08
Hi,
I've been looking for the 'perfect' 40-60% keyboard and was struck by the absence of arrow keys or their strange organization in brand name keyboards.

On my ISO105 keyboards, I use arrow keys a lot (code+office+games+graphics), so it seems very alien to me not to have them.
Having them in an unusual organization seems weird too : 4 on the same line, as usual but staggered, staggered diamond, on opposite sides of the space bar... (did I miss any ?)

So I wanted your feed back :
Who goes by without arrows (please state what you use the keyboard for, and how you navigate) ?
Who uses alternate arrow key organization, and was it hard to get used to.

Thanks
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: davkol on Sat, 02 January 2016, 07:24:48
It mostly depends what software you're using.

I've been using the arrows very rarely ever since I switched to Emacs. Default GNU Emacs bindings are Control--[PBNF] for directions and work shell w/ GNU Readline too; one advantage is the rest of the control scheme, that includes Alt-[BF] for jumping between words, Control-number for repetition, etc.

I don't really use arrows to navigate in texts/documents either. When I'm reading a book/article/wiki/…, I usually don't have my hands on the keyboard at all, and use a pen (on my Tablet PC), a trackball or a touchpad (w/ gestures) instead. Well, except perhaps hitting U/D (up/down half a page) in the web browser (Vimperator) every now and then.

Other than that, I've used all sorts of arrow clusters:
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: decker on Sat, 02 January 2016, 14:33:36
Thanks for all those details, I didn't perceive all those user cases.  :thumb:
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Sun, 03 January 2016, 14:02:21
I am currently using
ikl; = up down right left
on my work board.

I don't use 'left' frequently at work.

For a long time, I used
kl;' = down up right left

This was not bad, but was somewhat hard to get used to.

If macros are an option, then complex series of arrow movements can be programmed, if needed.

I also did not mind the Kinesis Advantage arrow layout.

 
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: decker on Sat, 09 January 2016, 10:21:59
Quote from: cogito_ergo_sum on Sun, 03 January 2016, 14:02:21
I am currently using
ikl; = up down right left
on my work board.

I don't use 'left' frequently at work.

For a long time, I used
kl;' = down up right left

This was not bad, but was somewhat hard to get used to.

If macros are an option, then complex series of arrow movements can be programmed, if needed.

I also did not mind the Kinesis Advantage arrow layout.

I've just now pictured what you are saying, that seems pretty hard to get used to indeed.
I'm having a hard enough time with games that use wasd = up left down right !
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Sat, 09 January 2016, 11:24:18
I have tried esdf  = up left down right on a Kinesis.

I liked it, but I prefer to enter numbers with my left hand.

I have used numpad navigation, but did not like it.

I use arrows primarily at work. At home, I use the standard arrow keys on a laptop when needed.
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 09 January 2016, 18:43:14
Main question is: what are you trying to do with the arrows, and what else do your hands need to be doing at the same time?

If you want maximum performance and flexibility and all you need is arrows, you should put {up/down/left/right} on {left index finger/left thumb/right index finger/right thumb}.

If you want to use only one hand for all the arrows, I recommend using index finger, middle finger, ring finger, and thumb, all with keys spread out enough to not require any kind of hand contortion. For example, for the right hand, you could set things up something like:
(http://i.imgur.com/FTPF0mh.png)
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: decker on Sun, 10 January 2016, 05:33:50
Quote from: jacobolus on Sat, 09 January 2016, 18:43:14
If you want to use only one hand for all the arrows, I recommend using index finger, middle finger, ring finger, and thumb, all with keys spread out enough to not require any kind of hand contortion.

Interesting.
Wonder if anyone with an ergodox has tried something like this :
ErgoDox with left hand arrows - down on left thumb (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_x:3.5%3B&=%23%0A3&_x:10.5%3B&=*%0A8%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2.5%3B&=%2F@%0A2&_x:1%3B&=$%0A4&_x:8.5%3B&=%2F&%0A7&_x:1%3B&=(%0A9%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5.5%3B&=%25%0A5&_a:7%3B&=&_x:4.5%3B&=&_a:4%3B&=%5E%0A6%3B&@_y:-0.875&a:7&w:1.5%3B&=&_a:4%3B&=!%0A1&_x:14.5%3B&=)%0A0&_a:7&w:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.375&x:3.5&a:4%3B&=E&_x:10.5%3B&=I%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2.5%3B&=W&_x:1%3B&=R&_x:8.5%3B&=U&_x:1%3B&=O%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5.5%3B&=T&_a:7&h:1.5%3B&=&_x:4.5&h:1.5%3B&=&_a:4%3B&=Y%3B&@_y:-0.875&a:7&w:1.5%3B&=&_a:4%3B&=Q&_x:14.5%3B&=P&_a:7&w:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.375&x:3.5&a:4%3B&=D&_x:10.5%3B&=K%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2.5%3B&=S&_x:1%3B&=F&_x:8.5%3B&=J&_x:1%3B&=L%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5.5%3B&=G&_x:6.5%3B&=H%3B&@_y:-0.875&a:7&w:1.5%3B&=&_a:4%3B&=A&_x:14.5%3B&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&_a:7&w:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.625&x:6.5&h:1.5%3B&=&_x:4.5&h:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:3.5&a:4%3B&=C&_x:10.5%3B&=%3C%0A,%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2.5%3B&=X&_x:1%3B&=V&_x:8.5%3B&=M&_x:1%3B&=%3E%0A.%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:5.5%3B&=B&_x:6.5%3B&=N%3B&@_y:-0.875&a:7&w:1.5%3B&=&_a:4%3B&=Z&_x:14.5%3B&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_a:7&w:1.5%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.375&x:3.5&c=%23bec757%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:10.5&c=%23cccccc%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.875&x:2.5&c=%23bec757%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Left'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:1%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Right'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:8.5&c=%23cccccc%3B&=&_x:1%3B&=%3B&@_y:-0.75&x:0.5%3B&=&=&_x:14.5%3B&=&=%3B&@_r:30&rx:6.5&ry:4.25&y:-1&x:1%3B&=&=%3B&@_h:2%3B&=&_h:2%3B&=&=%3B&@_x:2&c=%23bec757%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Down'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_r:-30&rx:13&y:-1&x:-3&c=%23cccccc%3B&=&=%3B&@_x:-3%3B&=&_h:2%3B&=&_h:2%3B&=%3B&@_x:-3%3B&=)
(http://i.imgur.com/30ZnrJU.png)
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Sun, 10 January 2016, 19:11:37
Quote from: jacobolus on Sat, 09 January 2016, 18:43:14

If you want to use only one hand for all the arrows, I recommend using index finger, middle finger, ring finger, and thumb, all with keys spread out enough to not require any kind of hand contortion. For example, for the right hand, you could set things up something like:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/FTPF0mh.png)


I had never considered a layout like this. I will have to consider it next time I test a new layout.

Perhaps I could leave 'up' and 'down' in more handy positions, and move 'left' and 'right', given that I use them less.

Do you consider this the best position of this type? Depending on the number of keys (and remapping capability) to the right of the spacebar, the pattern could be shifted further to the right 1 key, (possibly) even 2.
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 10 January 2016, 20:40:38
Well, again, the question is what other keys you need to press at the same time, and what the rest of your keyboarding context is. Personally, my preference is to not use a standard-layout keyboard at all, but something with column-staggered keys and a more natural hand shape. Then I put the arrows on a layer on the home row positions for the thumb and three fingers on one hand.

If you have a standard layout keyboard and you often need to use random keyboards you don’t own (so keeping normal arrow layout muscle memory is helpful), and you need to alternate arrows with typing, then using something like an inverted T style layout with IJKL representing up/left/down/right (on a layer where the layer switcher key is on the left hand) isn’t too bad.

The advantage of using the thumb and index finger for up/down and the middle and ring finger for left/right is that you don’t need to overload one finger with performing two different functions, and you can also make sure that any diagonal directions are convenient to press and to quickly alternate back and forth. Alternately pressing two keys on the middle finger / ring finger like 343434343 is pretty uncomfortable and slow. Including an index finger or thumb in the alternation is much better. That is, 232323232, 242424242, 131313131, 141414141 are all much more comfortable than 343434343. [Where the number 1 = thumb up through 5 = pinky]
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: Zustiur on Tue, 12 January 2016, 03:26:58
I use ESDF/IJKL. Except that I'm on colemak, so it's actually FRST UNEI.
I find this brilliant for quick edits in emails/documents/text fields as you don't have to leave the home position to reach for a different set of keys.
It probably helps that I've used ESDF for gaming for about 13 years, but maybe not, I seem to do most of the arrow work on my right hand now.
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: cogito_ergo_sum on Thu, 21 January 2016, 11:44:42
I've been trying

jkl; = up down right left

for a few days.

It's not bad. I expected more problems, since it reverses the 'down up' I used for a long time in a similar layout.

The 'up down' is how the Kinesis lays them out, but the 'right left' is reversed. Also, the Kinesis splits them between hands.

I tried 'down' on a foot pedal for a short time, but decided that the pedal had better uses.
Title: Re: No or strange arrow organization feedback request
Post by: vvp on Fri, 22 January 2016, 13:09:13

jkl; = left down up right

This is what I use in a special layer for tilling window manager. It is perfect. Vim style shifted to the home positions.

I use also the standard dedicated Kinesis style arrows but I swapped up/down keys the first time I put my hands on Kinesis Advantage :) This way the Kinesis arrows are not so different from the vim style. Not bad either.

IMO, both of the above layouts are better than the standard inverted T.