Post by: Darkshado on Mon, 04 January 2016, 20:34:19
Hello,
I've noticed developing right shoulder pain due to a too high desktop surface at home. It's a counter fixed to the wall so changing its height isn't going to be an option. My main machine is a large laptop (Clevo P151EM, 15" gaming-class, quite thick) bought at a time where I was on the road much more often. I typically use it with an external mouse, Logitech G502. My mice of choice are lightweight, wired, palm grip, a few more buttons and a 2500+ DPI capable sensor. I'll probably end up trying larger, or even vertical mice down the road.
One good news: I rigged a lowered keyboard+mouse shelf with some leftover wood, clamps, plus a spare full-size rubber dome, and I noticed an overnight improvement.
// TODO: a cleaner, better looking version of same.
Another past cause of shoulder pain was reaching for the mouse past the numpad on fullsize keyboards. I acquired a Microsoft Sculpt Ergo a few months ago for use at work because of that. Problem solved, but the F-keys on it suck (stepping in Visual Studio anyone?), and the accompanying mouse is average. Drivers lack options.
Going back to the shelf, I'm not going to keep the current rubber dome there for much longer...
I've used laptops almost exclusively for a few years, and hadn't noticed / forgotten how mushtastic™ rubber domes can be. Reasonably crisp scissor switches are OK. Any buckling spring keyboards we may have had at one point are long gone, and they'd still have that numpad to deal with.
I've tried a handful of mechanical keyboards for short periods of time; Cherry MX Reds (didn't like, bottomed out like crazy) Blues (didn't like the click sound) and Browns (liked, got the impression I may prefer the Clears). Never got to try Alps-family switches, I've spotted a work colleague's Topre, might have to ask if I can take it for a test drive.
Another recent acquisition has been a Thinkpad laptop, with its TrackPoint mouse. Very convenient, I like it enough that I've caught myself looking for one on other keyboards. Shame they're not more common and that even getting modules requires dismantling used ThinkPad keyboards.
So I'm trying to evaluate my options both short and long term.
Couple of gotchas:
- French Canadian layout: that's an ISO-based QWERTY layout. The only ISO straight mech keyboard (TKL or not) I can reasonnably get out here is from WASD. Everything else is ANSI. I touch-type, its the extra keys I'm after.
- I have a stubby right thumb. About 5 mm shorter than the left one, see this Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clubbed_thumb) for more. Needs to be taken into consideration for thumb clusters and the like.
Short term:
- Buy a "ThinkPad Compact USB Keyboard with TrackPoint" from Lenovo. Matches my X1. (60 $CAD + tax, free shipping) - Done
Buy another MS Sculpt Ergo for home use. Only sold with a mouse. (107 $CAD + tax, free shipping)Buy a WASD TKL ISO board with MX Clears. (160 $USD -> 222 $CAD + shipping + tax, should be no duties because of US assembly)
Long term:
- Stick with whatever short term solution I'll have picked.
- Take my chances with a TECK. They're on sale at 250 $CAD until January 6th, regular 330 $CAD.
- Get a decent deal on a defective TECK from someone here, replace the controller. Gamble that this solves the problem and that the switches + PCB are OK.
- Take a closer look at other COTS (scissor / mech) Ergo boards, and see how well they're usable for me. Try them out, not sure if that'll be possible.
- Build my own from scratch... Would probably end up as a cross between the Eagle (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71831.0), Atreus (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54759.0), TECK, Esrille (http://www.esrille.com/keyboard/), ErgoDox, Diverge II (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73328.0), and the Katy (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/katy-keyboard-or-k80cs-key80-contoured-split-t8524.html).
Decisions, decisions...
So, what are your thoughts following this fine wall of text?
Regards,
Darkshado
Post by: Zustiur on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:26:48
Post by: Darkshado on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:48:28
Post by: kurplop on Tue, 05 January 2016, 03:09:48
The TECK has some attractive features but I've since moved on to something else. I liked the solid build and the overall layout is pretty good. I found the "toe-in" angle to be no great enough to completely eliminate ulnar deviation for me and I often had to re-plug its USB into my Mac at start up for the Mac to recognize it. If you're the type that would contact customer support, don't bother with the TECK. They don't, or at least didn't, have a good reputation for responding to customer concerns. If you were to replace the controller, you would probably solve most or all of its issues.
If that doesn't discourage you, I have a blue or a brown TECK that I'd give you a good deal on. PM me for details if interested.
Post by: Zustiur on Wed, 06 January 2016, 09:11:27
Post by: davkol on Wed, 06 January 2016, 11:34:47
It's split, has quite nice switches, there's an ISO version, you don't have to relearn to type, and you might benefit from the larger bottom-row keycaps.
Post by: Darkshado on Wed, 06 January 2016, 14:29:44
@kurplop: Your point about toe-in does raise an interesting question, I'll have to look into it.
@Zustiur: Indeed, it's the thumb clusters I'm concerned about.
@davkol: Not really to be honest. I e-mailed Matias two or three weeks ago about the French Canadian layout, unsurprisingly there's a minimum 500-unit run per layout so they haven't made a batch and probably won't. They do have an fr-ca keyset on their site, I'll have to get them on the phone to inquire about an ISO unit and maybe switching a few keycaps. I might be underestimating the difficulty in transitioning to a vertical-stagger layout, which would put the Matias ahead of everything else.
Because it's unlikely I can easily find local examples of all the models I'm looking at, the next step is to get scale drawings, print them out and go from there.
Later,
Darkshado
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 06 January 2016, 15:32:00
Have you seen your doctor?
Ever thought about mousing with the left hand?
If you asking us if you should build a custom board, then we'll always say yes... There's no reason (except for money of course), not to buy a 'board as well. Have you looked at the kinesis advantage yet? You can return it within 60 days if it isn't for you. Much better than the teck.
Sounds like you've done a ton of research already.
PS don't forget rest breaks!
Post by: Zustiur on Thu, 07 January 2016, 08:39:01
@Zustiur: Indeed, it's the thumb clusters I'm concerned about.
If the thumb clusters of the ErgoDox put you off, I not-so-humbly suggest that you build a ZusDox
Of course you may not want to get quite that DIY...
Post by: bocahgundul on Thu, 07 January 2016, 08:40:18
Post by: profet on Sun, 17 January 2016, 14:18:34
You pick switches, caps, case materials/colors.
Post by: Darkshado on Mon, 18 January 2016, 02:58:40
(http://i.imgur.com/OySShyh.jpg) (http://imgur.com/OySShyh)
Most of you probably recognize: ErgoDox, Esrille, Atreus, Eagle, Thinkpad Compact, TECK (used their config tool as a starting point.)
(I don't think I'd be able to mock up a Kinesis convincingly.)
Mock typing can only go so far, but the exercise has been interesting nonetheless.
Statically, my hands are roughly in the same position on the TECK as on a straight board. (I suspect there's still an improvement while typing.) The others, even the tiny and narrow Atreus keep my wrists straighter due to a more pronounced toe-in angle.
The surprise of the evening has been the Esrille, the arc design for the thumb cluster feels much better than the "offset angled clusters" on the Dox or Eagle, including on my quite normal left thumb.
Starting off the Esrille's design, I'd consider a few changes to get closer to that "perfect" keyboard:
- Move the little finger clusters a little lower. (Columns QAZ and P;? and others going outwards.)
- Reduce the left arc radius, moving stock backspace and alt closer inward. Key clearance might become an issue though.
- Offset the right thumb arc approx. 0.5u down and rework the curve along which the keys are located to better match my range of motion.
- Maybe add a few keys here for less frequent presses, macros and the like: above { } and - =, underneath the two Controls, above Escape and Menu.
- Add a TrackPoint in there, maybe mouse keys would be enough, never tried them.
To do: try a Kinesis? Find local laser cutters and 3D printers?
This'll take a while.
Regards,
Darkshado
Post by: vvp on Mon, 18 January 2016, 04:23:45
If you are able to build a keyboard yourself then:
Other flat keyboard options: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.msg1473357#msg1473357
Other contoured option: http://deskthority.net/post247068.html#p247068
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 18 January 2016, 07:36:00
If you are experiencing regular discomfort, take it easy. Take frequent breaks, get up and walk around, try to scale back the amount of typing and mousing you do, make sure you eat right, get enough sleep and exercise, and reduce stress and anxiety in your life if you can. If the pain is persisting or getting worse, you might consider talking to a doctor. None of us here are doctors, kinesiologists, physical therapists, etc., as far as I know.
If you think your pain is associated with mousing, you might try switching mouse hands, finding a cheap used trackball, trackpad, or roller mouse, adjusting your mousing surface, or just adjusting your workflow/software tools to require less switching between keyboard and mouse. Just getting a narrower keyboard that lets you bring the mouse closer in might have some benefit.
Try to get the rest of your workspace into comfortable shape. If your desk is too high and you can’t adjust it, the next best thing is to raise your chair higher. If you have a regular chair and a tall desk, these are a pretty nifty way to adapt, http://www.ergodepot.com/HumanTool_Balance_Seat_p/ht-balance.htm (For me personally, a high desk and a saddle-type seat is perfect, and I sometimes take one of these balance seats to a coffeeshop where I can’t adjust the furniture if I plan to sit and type for a few hours.)
If you can’t change your chair or your desk for whatever reason, then you need to make sure that your keyboard is tilted properly to account for that. With a high desk, you want a relatively steeply tilted keyboard, so that your forearms are parallel to the keyboard surface. Flip those feet up in the back and/or prop the back end up with some books or something. (With a low desk, it’s the opposite. To make sure your forearms stay parallel with the keyboard it’s sometimes necessary to prop up the front end of the keyboard.)
Even without changing keyboards, try to type with your wrists and other joints in as neutral a position as you can manage. Especially try to avoid having your wrists bent upward (“extension”) or downward (“flexion”). Try to type with your hands “floating” with your fingertips resting lightly on the home row, without resting significant weight on your palms or elbows: this lets your whole arm absorb some of the shock associated with each keypress instead of leaving it all to the fingers. Try to keep your upper arms relatively close to your body instead of sticking your elbows way out to the side or forward, and bring the keyboard relatively close to your torso, so you don’t need to reach for it. Keep your back straight (not slouching or hunched forward) and your shoulders relaxed. Try to notice if there are particular keyboard combinations which cause strain, and change those patterns: for example, it might be more comfortable to use whole hand movement instead of wrist twisting to hit the backspace key.
Try alternating body positions, if your workspace allows. For instance, I have a height-adjustable desk and I like to switch between sitting saddle-style, sitting normal-office-chair style, standing up, and using a laptop sprawled out on a couch.
Overall, try to listen to what your body is telling you. See if you can notice which positions or actions cause you more discomfort, and figure out ways to avoid those if you can.
Now on to keyboards:
The ErgoPro or similar is definitely the easiest-learning-curve alternative to a standard keyboard – you can probably be up to full speed within a day or two – and simply splitting the board into two halves makes a surprisingly large improvement from an RSI perspective: you can “tent” the two sides you can dramatically reduce the amount of wrist pronation required to type, and this allows you more flexibility to adjust various other aspects of your posture and relieve stress on upper arm, shoulder, back, and neck. Try a split keyboard with some flexible supports (the ErgoPro uses the same kind of tripod mount as any camera) that allow you to adjust the two sides’ position independently, as well as all three axes of rotation for each side.
If you switch to a substantially different layout such as the TECK, Ergodox, Kinesis Advantage, or whatever custom keyboard, there will be an adjustment period lasting anywhere from a week to a couple months, depending. Standard ANSI/QWERTY layout is in many ways stupid, but it does have the benefit that you already learned it.
As hoggy said, this being Geekhack, nobody is going to discourage you from going as far down the rabbit hole as you like to go. We’ll happily cheer as you design your own keyboard layout, desolder all the switches from donor boards bought on ebay, cast your own specially shaped keycaps, etch your own pcb, and mill the keyboard case out of a block of aluminum using a hand mill. (Note: that’s what kurplop did, and the results are amazing.) If you want to get really fancy, you can follow that up by programming your own new keyboard firmware, or writing your own algorithm to optimize the logical letter layout.
One last bit of advice: if you post pictures, people will have an easier time giving concrete advice.
In any event, welcome to Geekhack, and all the best luck. RSI is no joke; stay safe out there.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Mon, 18 January 2016, 10:02:30
Post by: Darkshado on Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:10:30
If you are experiencing regular discomfort, take it easy. Take frequent breaks, get up and walk around, try to scale back the amount of typing and mousing you do, make sure you eat right, get enough sleep and exercise, and reduce stress and anxiety in your life if you can. If the pain is persisting or getting worse, you might consider talking to a doctor. None of us here are doctors, kinesiologists, physical therapists, etc., as far as I know.
Good points, lifestyle is a significant part of all this.
Quote
If you think your pain is associated with mousing, you might try switching mouse hands, finding a cheap used trackball, trackpad, or roller mouse, adjusting your mousing surface, or just adjusting your workflow/software tools to require less switching between keyboard and mouse. Just getting a narrower keyboard that lets you bring the mouse closer in might have some benefit.
I've been staying away from full-size keyboards for some time already and that's improved my situation greatly. TrackPoint's been good in that respect as well. Might try trackballs / vertical mice / rollermouse at some point.
Quote
Try to get the rest of your workspace into comfortable shape. If your desk is too high and you can’t adjust it, the next best thing is to raise your chair higher. If you have a regular chair and a tall desk, these are a pretty nifty way to adapt, http://www.ergodepot.com/HumanTool_Balance_Seat_p/ht-balance.htm (For me personally, a high desk and a saddle-type seat is perfect, and I sometimes take one of these balance seats to a coffeeshop where I can’t adjust the furniture if I plan to sit and type for a few hours.)
[...]
Even without changing keyboards, try to type with your wrists and other joints in as neutral a position as you can manage.
[...]
Try alternating body positions, if your workspace allows. For instance, I have a height-adjustable desk and I like to switch between sitting saddle-style, sitting normal-office-chair style, standing up, and using a laptop sprawled out on a couch.
Just adding a hastily made keyboard shelf a few weeks ago has helped tremendously with regards to keeping joints closer to neutral. My desk chair was getting pretty worn out - deformed seat cushion and creaking noises all over - I had been meaning to change it for some time and did so last week. The new one has better adjustable everything and is of a good enough quality that I expect it to last me at least ten years.
I'll get around to having a standing desk as well some day.
Here's a photo of my setup (pardon the blurred portions; my desk is, shall we say, not very organized):
[attach=1]
Quote
Now on to keyboards:
The ErgoPro or similar is definitely the easiest-learning-curve alternative to a standard keyboard – you can probably be up to full speed within a day or two – and simply splitting the board into two halves makes a surprisingly large improvement from an RSI perspective: you can “tent” the two sides you can dramatically reduce the amount of wrist pronation required to type, and this allows you more flexibility to adjust various other aspects of your posture and relieve stress on upper arm, shoulder, back, and neck. Try a split keyboard with some flexible supports (the ErgoPro uses the same kind of tripod mount as any camera) that allow you to adjust the two sides’ position independently, as well as all three axes of rotation for each side.
If you switch to a substantially different layout such as the TECK, Ergodox, Kinesis Advantage, or whatever custom keyboard, there will be an adjustment period lasting anywhere from a week to a couple months, depending. Standard ANSI/QWERTY layout is in many ways stupid, but it does have the benefit that you already learned it.
I plan on sticking to QWERTY for now, even if I end up with a fairly different physical layout on my keyboard itself.
Quote
As hoggy said, this being Geekhack, nobody is going to discourage you from going as far down the rabbit hole as you like to go. We’ll happily cheer as you design your own keyboard layout, desolder all the switches from donor boards bought on ebay, cast your own specially shaped keycaps, etch your own pcb, and mill the keyboard case out of a block of aluminum using a hand mill. (Note: that’s what kurplop did, and the results are amazing.) If you want to get really fancy, you can follow that up by programming your own new keyboard firmware, or writing your own algorithm to optimize the logical letter layout.
One last bit of advice: if you post pictures, people will have an easier time giving concrete advice.
In any event, welcome to Geekhack, and all the best luck. RSI is no joke; stay safe out there.
I did get the impression this hobby could get pretty involved, then again, what's one more? :P Yeah I've seen people posting about all these things, and the Alumaplop is indeed a sight to behold.
Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. I'll probably go back to mostly lurking for the time being, keeping an eye out for new ideas and resources. After all, I spend more than enough time with computers to justify quality peripherals.
Cheers,
Darkshado