geekhack
geekhack Community => New Members => Topic started by: burli on Thu, 07 January 2016, 02:58:27
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Hi, my name is Markus and I'm from germany. I learnd touch typing about 25 years ago, but I was never satisfied, so I started to learn Neo 2 about two month ago. Then I start to build my first keyboard. I was tired using my pinkys for everything and my thumbs just had to hammer on one small spot of a much to big and space wasting space bar. And I was tired bending my fingers to reach the upper and lower row. So my first keyboard is a splitted matrix keyboard and has 4 thumb keys
I'm planning to build more keyboards this year like the MB42 and MB46, but I have to work on the layout.
I you have questions: ask. If you have suggestions: let me know
regards
Markus
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Welcome to Geekhack!
Did you design and build that yourself? Impressive!
If you have any pictures or details of the build, you're welcome to create a build log thread in making stuff together (https://geekhack.org/index.php?board=117.0) :)
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Did you design and build that yourself? Impressive!
Well, I do not design the Neo 2 layout. I just modify the key positions. Currently I use Teensy 2.0, but in the future I will add the controller directly to the keyboard PCB.
I was unhappy with "traditional" keyboards, but it is difficult to get keyboards like ErgoDox in germany. And if you get one mostly it has a QWERTY layout. So I desided to make my own
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Did you design and build that yourself? Impressive!
Well, I do not design the Neo 2 layout. I just modify the key positions. Currently I use Teensy 2.0, but in the future I will add the controller directly to the keyboard PCB.
I was unhappy with "traditional" keyboards, but it is difficult to get keyboards like ErgoDox in germany. And if you get one mostly it has a QWERTY layout. So I desided to make my own
You could try ordering one from Massdrop, but QWERTY, yes.
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No, it's fun to create new keyboards and build them. And maybe I find some other german/european enthusiasts they like my keyboards
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Welcome!
How is typing with the neo2 layout and how long did it take you to get used to it?
Great kb btw!
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Sick board! Are you going to release the files for that?
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Did you design and build that yourself? Impressive!
Well, I do not design the Neo 2 layout. I just modify the key positions. Currently I use Teensy 2.0, but in the future I will add the controller directly to the keyboard PCB.
I was unhappy with "traditional" keyboards, but it is difficult to get keyboards like ErgoDox in germany. And if you get one mostly it has a QWERTY layout. So I desided to make my own
http://falbatech.pl/prestashop/index.php
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Welcome!
How is typing with the neo2 layout and how long did it take you to get used to it?
Great kb btw!
Thx, I started nearly two month ago. I never was a fast typist. My record on 10fastfingers is 46WPM with Neo 2, never tried with QWERTZ. I am still not so fast and I am not as steady as before, so I still have to learn a lot. It takes me two or three weeks to feel nearly familiar.
Sick board! Are you going to release the files for that?
No, this is just a prototype and has some bugs. Maybe later versions
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As a Belgian who used Belgian Azerty for too long, I feel your German layout pain. Couldn't you use a US International layout to get the ß?
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As a Belgian who used Belgian Azerty for too long, I feel your German layout pain. Couldn't you use a US International layout to get the ß?
With a compose key, but now I love Neo. Won't go back to QWERT*
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Hello from France, just joined too.
Didn't build anything though!
Have no solution regarding non qwerty keyboards...
Have plenty of layout ideas in ergonomics if you want to have a look.
(I didn't say good ideas mind you!)
I love your split matrix keyboard.
If I think of an Azerty varient layout for it i'll post you a link here.
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So I just had to make a lighter version
Deo (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_c=%23f2c9dd&a:7&f:8%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Escape-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0Af1&_c=%23bababa&a:4&f:3%3B&=%3C%0A%22%0A%0A%7B%0Af2&=%3E%0A'%0A%0A%7D%0Af3&=(%0A!%0A%0A%5B%0Af4&=)%0A%2F%3B%0A%0A%5D%0Af5&=%2F&%0A,%0A%0A%7C%0Af6&_x:1%3B&=%23%0A%0A%0A%0Af7%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A.&=%E2%82%AC%0A%2F:%0A%0A%25%0Af8&=%5C%0A%0A%0A%0Af9%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%2F%2F&=!%0A%3F%0A%0A*%0Af10&=%2F_%0A%0A%0A%0Af11%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A-&_c=%23f2c9dd&a:7&f:8%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-BackSpace-DeleteLeft-Big'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0Af12%3B&@=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-DeleteRight-Big'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Insert-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23cccccc&a:4&f:3%3B&=X%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-PrintScreen-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=V%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Break-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=L%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Pause-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=C&=W&_x:1%3B&=K%0A%0A%0A,&=H%0A%0A%0A7&=G%0A%0A%0A8&=F%0A%0A%0A9&=Q%0A%0A%0A+&=%E1%BA%9E%0A%0A%0A%2F@%3B&@_c=%23c9d4f2&a:7&f:8&h:2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Line-Start-End'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23cccccc&a:4&f:3%3B&=U&=I&=A&=E&=O&_x:1%3B&=S%0A%0A%0A%C2%B0&=N%0A%0A%0A4&=R%0A%0A%0A5&=T%0A%0A%0A6&=D%0A%0A%0A%2F=&_c=%23c9d4f2&a:7&f:8&h:2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Return-2'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_x:1&c=%23cccccc&a:4&f:3%3B&=%C3%9C&=%C3%96&=%C3%84&=P&=Z&_x:1%3B&=B%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-A-Round-SanSerif'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=M%0A%0A%0A1&=J%0A%0A%0A2&=Y%0A%0A%0A3&_c=%23f2d0c9&a:7&f:8%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Page-Up-5'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_c=%23c9f2d2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up-Circle-Filled'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23ecf2c9%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-logo-linux-tux-ibm'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Option-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Symbol-Keyboard'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23bababa&f:3&w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Lock-Closed-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:1&a:4&w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A0%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-1-Round'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23c9f2d2&f:8&fa@:0&:0&:0&:2%3B%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Decimal-Separator-2'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up-Circle-Filled'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23f2d0c9&a:7%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Left'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Top-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Down'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Page-Down-5'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Right'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Bottom-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E)
(http://i.imgur.com/sFmMDYY.png) 8)
I did notice your Lizard-Spock
Feo (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_c=%23f2c9dd&a:7&f:8%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Escape-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0Af1&_c=%23bababa&a:4&f:3%3B&=%3C%0A%22%0A%0A%7B%0Af2&=%3E%0A'%0A%0A%7D%0Af3&=(%0A%5E%0A%0A%5B%0Af4&=)%0A%2F%3B%0A%0A%5D%0Af5&=%2F&%0A,%0A%0A%7C%0Af6&_x:1%3B&=%23%0A%0A%0A%0Af7%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A.&=%E2%82%AC%0A%2F:%0A%0A%25%0Af8&=%5C%0A%0A%0A%0Af9%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%2F%2F&=!%0A%3F%0A%0A*%0Af10&=%2F_%0A%0A%0A%0Af11%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A-&_c=%23f2c9dd&a:7&f:8%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-BackSpace-DeleteLeft-Big'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0Af12%3B&@=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-DeleteRight-Big'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Insert-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23cccccc&a:4&f:3%3B&=K%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-PrintScreen-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=P%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Break-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=C%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Pause-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=B&=V&_x:1%3B&=D%0A%0A%0A,&=L%0A%0A%0A7&=J%0A%0A%0A8&=Z%0A%0A%0A9&=W%0A%0A%0A+&=%C3%87%0A%0A%0A%2F@%3B&@_c=%23c9d4f2&a:7&f:8&h:2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Line-Start-End'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23cccccc&a:4&f:3%3B&=A&=I&=E&=O&=U&_x:1%3B&=T%0A%0A%0A%C2%B0&=S%0A%0A%0A4&=R%0A%0A%0A5&=N%0A%0A%0A6&=M%0A%0A%0A%2F=&_c=%23c9d4f2&a:7&f:8&h:2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Return-2'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_x:1&c=%23cccccc&a:4&f:3%3B&=%C3%80&=%C3%88&=%C3%89&=Y&=X&_x:1%3B&=Q%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-A-Round-SanSerif'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=G%0A%0A%0A1&=H%0A%0A%0A2&=F%0A%0A%0A3&_c=%23f2d0c9&a:7&f:8%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Page-Up-5'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_c=%23c9f2d2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up-Circle-Filled'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23ecf2c9%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-logo-linux-tux-ibm'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Option-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Symbol-Keyboard'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23bababa&f:3&w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Lock-Closed-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_x:1&a:4&w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A0%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-1-Round'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23c9f2d2&f:8&fa@:0&:0&:0&:2%3B%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Decimal-Separator-2'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up-Circle-Filled'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23f2d0c9&a:7%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Left'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Top-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Down'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='mss%20mss-Unicode-Page-Down-5'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Right'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Bottom-3'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E) :p
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So I just had to make a lighter version
No way, never again without Layer 3 and 4. Thats just awesome for programming. And I love layer 4 for numbers and I use backspace, cursor keys and enter also. Did you notice how easy it is to type smilies? :thumb:
Use layer 3 and 4 and put bépo on top of it. I prommise, you will love it
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I was wondering :
Do you have an rough estimate of the part cost for you split 5x12 board ?
Furthermore the time you spent building it ?
I'd be interesting in evaluating if I'd be able to build one.
Danke!
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I have no idea about any costs. This is just the first prototype to find out how it feels to type with this type of keyboard. This is my first mechanical keyboard, my first matrix keyboard and my first splitted keyboard I ever used and the first keyboard I build by myself.
So I still have to learn a lot about keyboards. I made little modifications to the matrix and the next step is an onboard controller and the software.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b739f5131219b0571c8b
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I made little modifications to the matrix and the next step is an onboard controller and the software.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b739f5131219b0571c8b
Thats a big change you added 2 columns, 1.25u wide each.
That changes your board, where do you order them?
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Thats a big change you added 2 columns, 1.25u wide each.
That changes your board, where do you order them?
Well, I'm a little unhappy with the positions of y and ß for a keyboard to be used daily, especially if you have to write English. They should be at the intended position. And the keys for Tab, Ctrl etc should be slightly wider. But I don't want to add another column on the right side for enter, so I decided to add two columns on the inside. I also want thumb keys for the Mod3 keys.
But before I make new PCBs I will use my current prototypes to develope the software and learn more about keyboards. And just right now I decided to make a Numpad like this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/27ffe91377af81e04ca5) out of one of the boards.
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Well, I'm a little unhappy with the positions of y and ß for a keyboard to be used daily, especially if you have to write English. They should be at the intended position. And the keys for Tab, Ctrl etc should be slightly wider. But I don't want to add another column on the right side for enter, so I decided to add two columns on the inside. I also want thumb keys for the Mod3 keys.
I have the feeling - but its just a feeling, you are the one with the board and the Neo experience.
I feel that if you got rid of the numbers on top row and only kept the ones in a layer, you could remove a layer.
Then you have less Mod buttons to worry about... and maybe remove things you will never use, it makes the board harder to read.
In my design example I have most the punctuation and the arrows in the main layer.
The rest are in the shifted or alternate graphics layer (Ctr+Alt). Only the shift button is present on both sides as the alternate layer is less used.
As the caps lock (Fn+Left Space) one key combination (Fn+Right Space) should lock the alternate graphics layer as it can be used as a Num pad.
Again I am basing this on feeling not experience.
But before I make new PCBs I will use my current prototypes to develope the software and learn more about keyboards. And just right now I decided to make a Numpad like this (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/27ffe91377af81e04ca5) out of one of the boards.
Is that two layouts ideas or a double numpad, to be used with either hands ?
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I have the feeling - but its just a feeling, you are the one with the board and the Neo experience.
I feel that if you got rid of the numbers on top row and only kept the ones in a layer, you could remove a layer.
Then you have less Mod buttons to worry about... and maybe remove things you will never use, it makes the board harder to read.
In my design example I have most the punctuation and the arrows in the main layer.
The rest are in the shifted or alternate graphics layer (Ctr+Alt). Only the shift button is present on both sides as the alternate layer is less used.
As the caps lock (Fn+Left Space) one key combination (Fn+Right Space) should lock the alternate graphics layer as it can be used as a Num pad.
Again I am basing this on feeling not experience.
You are not wrong, I really like what I have here. And there is nothing hard to read. And I don't understand why you want to have punctuation on the main layer. I don't use ? or ! very much so it is a waste of space putting them on the main layer.
I will try to explain you. This is the minimum keyboard (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/16bf803018bcf25aa81e) I need to do anything, except some limitations using desktop shortcuts. I can type text, I can develope software etc. I like to use enter, backspace or the cursor keys on layer 4 because I don't need to move my hands out of the home position. On normal keyboards I have to "open" my hands to reach enter or backspace. To use the cursor keys on a normal keyboard you have to move your hand completly of the keyboard. I just have to move my right thumb less than 2cm to the right and my left index finger 2cm down for enter. Easyer than typing uppercase letters on a normal keyboard where you have to "bend" your pinky to reach shift.
Everything around this minimum keyboard is just convenience, if you want to or if you have to use just one hand.
If you are writing soure code you will love layer 3. Typing this line of code with your design would freak me out
int i,j=0; for(i=1;i<=5;i++) { j+=i; j--; }
You have to switch between 3 layers to type characters like = () {} [] +-;: and many of them are in the top row, far away from the modifier keys. I have all these characters on one layer and I can reach them without breaking my fingers and without leaving the home position. Many german developers use the QWERTY layout because it is hard to type {}[]\ because they are in the top row and AltGr is on the bottom row on the same hand. Thats awful
Is that two layouts ideas or a double numpad, to be used with either hands ?
It is just an example if you assemble the PCB from the back side. You can use it right or left handed.
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About punctuation, I usually need to use while writing english or french , . ? ' and somewhat less : ; ! -
About code I don't code in languages using [], nor {}, nor $#, however I often need %@()+=<>/*" when programming or &; in Excel.
I use a lot arrows, I'd end up having cramps if I had to keep the Mod4 on while using them.
I hope my questions are not annoying you, I'm just trying to understand if there is a reason why we like so different layouts.
As you pointed out we may need different characters for coding or writing text.
Is there a way to lock layout 3 or 4. Like caps lock would lock layer 2 ?
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About punctuation, I usually need to use while writing english or french , . ? ' and somewhat less : ; ! -
About code I don't code in languages using [], nor {}, nor $#, however I often need %@()+=<>/*" when programming or &; in Excel.
I use a lot arrows, I'd end up having cramps if I had to keep the Mod4 on while using them.
I hope my questions are not annoying you, I'm just trying to understand if there is a reason why we like so different layouts.
As you pointed out we may need different characters for coding or writing text.
I'm not annoyed. It is just interesting how different the preferences are. First of all: Neo 2 is designed for any ISO keyboard. You don't need a programmable keyboard. It is not designed to meet special needs. The perfect keyboard does not exist
But the developer put a lot of thoughts to make it as universal as possible and comfortable at the same time within the limitations of normal keyboards
Is there a way to lock layout 3 or 4. Like caps lock would lock layer 2 ?
Should be, but doesn't work right now. Don't know why. Just press both Mod4 buttons at the same time. Mod3 has no lock.