I wouldn't want them to be the same.
Unicomp's not trying to make the kinds of keyboards they made when cars had chrome fenders and furniture was solid wood.
Much has been said about whether Unicomp's Model M's live up to the high standards of IBM's "classic" Model M's of the '80s–'90s.Some very good points, and I agree with you. However, the comparison picture you posted does make the Unicomp look especially, offensively ugly compared to the IBM xD .
(Attachment Link)
Some people consider IBMs unequivocally superior, citing the heavier, more solid feel of their thicker cases and plates, and their more refined appearance (better typography and printing quality, more uniform molding).
I bought into that for a while. However, since I've been alternately typing on an IBM 1391401 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xibm+1391401.TRS0&_nkw=ibm+1391401&_sacat=0) and a Unicomp Ultra Classic (http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UNI0P4A), my opinion's changed.
IBM was very image-conscious. They considered their products' esthetics and visual consistency as important as how well they performed. But they were one of the world's biggest companies; they could afford the best designers and the strictest quality control.
Unicomp's tiny, and serves a niche market: nostalgic computer veterans, and those of us imaginative and eccentric enough to value buckling-spring keyboards in the 21st century, like people who use fine fountain pens.
I like nice-looking keyboards. Indeed, many of them are designed like art objects. And as a creative person, I often appreciate the interesting, appealing forms functional objects can take.
But to me, a keyboard's primarily a typing machine. I spend a lot more time thinking about what I'm writing than examining what's under my fingers. So the more I've used these keyboards, the less I've bothered comparing their looks.
That leaves how they work and feel. And while I agree the IBM feels more solid, the Unicomp has something the IBM doesn't. Liveliness? Personality? Its touch is lighter. It's noisier, less contained-sounding. The IBM makes me think of fluorescent-lighted, climate-controlled rooms with guys in crewcuts and skinny ties talking into phones and consulting clipboards. The Unicomp makes me think of popcorn, fireworks, banjo music. It's the keyboard The Cat in the Hat would've used.
They're both cool; the Unicomp's just not as stodgy. Let's face it: The very idea of making BS boards in an age of iPhones and 80-inch TVs is impractical, maybe even a bit goofy. And yet audacious, idealistic little Unicomp says, "Here we are!" It's like finding out you can still buy Lava Lites and tie-dye shirts. (You can, actually, though no one under 30 will have any idea what I'm talking about.)
So maybe it doesn't matter that Unicomp keyboards aren't as massive, flawlessly molded or carefully printed as IBMs. Unicomp's not trying to make the kinds of keyboards they made when cars had chrome fenders and furniture was solid wood. It's remarkable that Unicomp's making keyboards at all.
I really like the contrast between the two. It's like going to a fine restaurant one night, and a great pizza parlor the next. There's a lot to appreciate in both. I wouldn't want them to be the same.
Thoughts?
If Unicomp would make a special edition SSK model, they would see huge demand. It must be very expensive for them to do that, as it would seem like such a no-brainer - I'd buy one for sure.Much as I admire them for what they're doing, really Unicomp isn't a very market-driven company at all :p .
If Unicomp would make a special edition SSK model, they would see huge demand.
Much has been said about whether Unicomp's Model M's live up to the high standards of IBM's "classic" Model M's of the '80s–'90s.I love reading posts like this (and from this guy especially ;))
(Attachment Link)
Some people consider IBMs unequivocally superior, citing the heavier, more solid feel of their thicker cases and plates, and their more refined appearance (better typography and printing quality, more uniform molding).
I bought into that for a while. However, since I've been alternately typing on an IBM 1391401 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xibm+1391401.TRS0&_nkw=ibm+1391401&_sacat=0) and a Unicomp Ultra Classic (http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UNI0P4A), my opinion's changed.
IBM was very image-conscious. They considered their products' esthetics and visual consistency as important as how well they performed. But they were one of the world's biggest companies; they could afford the best designers and the strictest quality control.
Unicomp's tiny, and serves a niche market: nostalgic computer veterans, and those of us imaginative and eccentric enough to value buckling-spring keyboards in the 21st century, like people who use fine fountain pens.
I like nice-looking keyboards. Indeed, many of them are designed like art objects. And as a creative person, I often appreciate the interesting, appealing forms functional objects can take.
But to me, a keyboard's primarily a typing machine. I spend a lot more time thinking about what I'm writing than examining what's under my fingers. So the more I've used these keyboards, the less I've bothered comparing their looks.
That leaves how they work and feel. And while I agree the IBM feels more solid, the Unicomp has something the IBM doesn't. Liveliness? Personality? Its touch is lighter. It's noisier, less contained-sounding. The IBM makes me think of fluorescent-lighted, climate-controlled rooms with guys in crewcuts and skinny ties talking into phones and consulting clipboards. The Unicomp makes me think of popcorn, fireworks, banjo music. It's the keyboard The Cat in the Hat would've used.
They're both cool; the Unicomp's just not as stodgy. Let's face it: The very idea of making BS boards in an age of iPhones and 80-inch TVs is impractical, maybe even a bit goofy. And yet audacious, idealistic little Unicomp says, "Here we are!" It's like finding out you can still buy Lava Lites and tie-dye shirts. (You can, actually, though no one under 30 will have any idea what I'm talking about.)
So maybe it doesn't matter that Unicomp keyboards aren't as massive, flawlessly molded or carefully printed as IBMs. Unicomp's not trying to make the kinds of keyboards they made when cars had chrome fenders and furniture was solid wood. It's remarkable that Unicomp's making keyboards at all.
I really like the contrast between the two. It's like going to a fine restaurant one night, and a great pizza parlor the next. There's a lot to appreciate in both. I wouldn't want them to be the same.
Thoughts?
Don't bash Unicomp.
Don't bash Unicomp.
Who's bashing Unicomp?
I like the 103 layout over the 101.
If Unicomp would make a special edition SSK model, they would see huge demand. It must be very expensive for them to do that, as it would seem like such a no-brainer - I'd buy one for sure.Much as I admire them for what they're doing, really Unicomp isn't a very market-driven company at all :p .
I like the 103 layout over the 101.
I like the classic 101 layout over the abomination that is the latest Unicomp layout.
I sold my black Unicomp in the end and I've decided to try and get a "proper" IBM Model M off eBay. Not sure I'll even use it that much but I am certainly interested in getting an authentic one and using it again. Definitely turning into some kind of obsession now.Welcome to the club! :D We love that obsession here. :thumb:
The comparison is minimal with the 103.Very nice comparison! The 103 buttons just fit naturally imo.
IBM 42H1292 (4th gen PS/2 IBM UK)
*ClickyKeyboards.com
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/30487/subcatid/0/id/576797Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/0gJY9QQ.jpg)
Unicomp UNI0446 (PS/2 with new Unicomp white overlay)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YEIA2Ul.jpg)
I like the classic 101 layout...Me too. I hate windows keys. I'm so glad my Logitech g710 has a button to turn them off. In fact, that's one of the reasons I prefer vintage boards--the classic 101 layout. :thumb:
They even print custom keycaps when you remind them that it is somthing they can actually do.
I sold my black Unicomp in the end and I've decided to try and get a "proper" IBM Model M off eBay. Not sure I'll even use it that much but I am certainly interested in getting an authentic one and using it again. Definitely turning into some kind of obsession now.Welcome to the club! :D We love that obsession here. :thumb:
If Unicomp would make a special edition SSK model, they would see huge demand...
Much as I admire them for what they're doing, really Unicomp isn't a very market-driven company at all :p .
Don't bash Unicomp.
I like the 103 layout over the 101.
I like the classic 101 layout over the abomination that is the latest Unicomp layout.
Some very good points, and I agree with you. However, the comparison picture you posted does make the Unicomp look especially, offensively ugly compared to the IBM xD .
I love reading posts like [the OP] (and from this guy especially ;)) ...
...Now that I've been able to come out of my all-Ms bubble and experience some Unicomps as well as other keyboards of the era, I'm able to get a much better picture of the climate of that time in terms of keyboards. IBM was the king, no doubt about it and the clones were trying to be the king on a budget.
Fast forward to today and there is no king anymore. In fact there's barely a kingdom. Just a bunch of squires in different camps trying to gain more followers.
But while the king was on top, the servants were watching, and they slowly picked up where the king left off, in a market where a king isn't even needed. That's not easy to do, especially with such a niche business as custom buckling spring keyboards. Unicomp, their product be whatever they may, have singlehandedly kept the kings dream alive.
Quality control has changed on many, many things, not just keyboards. I can tell in each year variation of cars that I have. I can tell the second I sit in a 'luxury' car today. Things are no longer made to last because no one wants them to last--not the maker, not the user, not even the designer. It's a disposable world and Unicomp is keeping the king's vision of 'built-to-last' alive in its own way--while still serving the kings subjects.
In my opinion, IBM vs. Unicomp is akin to Gibson vs. Epiphone. Given the choice, I don't know anyone who'd prefer an Epiphone Les Paul Standard over an original Gibson Les Paul Standard.
In my opinion, IBM vs. Unicomp is akin to Gibson vs. Epiphone. Given the choice, I don't know anyone who'd prefer an Epiphone Les Paul Standard over an original Gibson Les Paul Standard.
It's a valid comparison. And yet, I have an Epiphone jazz guitar and I love it. A Gibson would cost several times more, and of course have a more collectable name on the peghead. But while its build quality might be slightly better, there'd be absolutely nothing I could play on the Gibson that I couldn't on the Epi.
If I owned both, I probably would come to think of them as I do my IBM and Unicomp M's. I'd enjoy them equally—two high-quality instruments with two personalities. Vive la différence.
Much has been said about whether Unicomp's Model M's live up to the high standards of IBM's "classic" Model M's of the '80s–'90s.
(Attachment Link)
Unicomp may be good and all and I'll probably buy one. But man, is that thing fugly. The model M is WAY more sexy... And what's up with that led indication area? Gonna scrape that right off. :P
An oft-voiced complaint. :?) But again, IBM was making enough on their hardware to keep visual designers on their staffs. The people who bought Lexmark and created Unicomp were engineers and executives who—primarily out of love for BS boards, I suspect—took on a daunting challenge even without designers on the payroll. So graphically, I see a Unicomp board as a left-brain engineer's vision of a Model M. I sort of like that.
Unicomp may be good and all and I'll probably buy one. But man, is that thing fugly. The model M is WAY more sexy... And what's up with that led indication area? Gonna scrape that right off. :P
Funny you should mention that—as I just posted here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81153.msg2133776#msg2133776):Quote from: MeAn oft-voiced complaint. :?) But again, IBM was making enough on their hardware to keep visual designers on their staffs. The people who bought Lexmark and created Unicomp were engineers and executives who—primarily out of love for BS boards, I suspect—took on a daunting challenge even without designers on the payroll. So graphically, I see a Unicomp board as a left-brain engineer's vision of a Model M. I sort of like that.
The funny thing is, in that post I also linked back to this topic... Synchronicity in the KB universe.
I like the 103 layout over the 101.
I like the 103 layout over the 101.
I like the classic 101 layout over the abomination that is the latest Unicomp layout.
I don't really see anything wrong with the look of a Unicomp...actually, it feels rather more human to me than a lot of the "minimal"-looking stuff that seems to be in fashion now.
If they put a better TrackPoint and one of those fancy Korean NKRO membranes in the EnduraPro, I'd buy one immediately. As it is, it'd probably be like most of my 2KRO keyboards and spend most of its time in my closet, at least until I found myself compelled to try and graft the TrackPoint from my ancient ThinkPad into it (which would probably result in the destruction of both the keyboard and what's left of the laptop).
What about an M13? Have you considered them at all?
Also, the nice thing about a Unicomp is that it can actually be bought new. I can clean a used keyboard, sure, but just because the keyboard is clean doesn't mean the nightmares about what was seen inside it during the process will go away...
In my opinion, IBM vs. Unicomp is akin to Gibson vs. Epiphone. Given the choice, I don't know anyone who'd prefer an Epiphone Les Paul Standard over an original Gibson Les Paul Standard.
In my opinion, IBM vs. Unicomp is akin to Gibson vs. Epiphone. Given the choice, I don't know anyone who'd prefer an Epiphone Les Paul Standard over an original Gibson Les Paul Standard.
While I agree with you in regards to keyboards, not all Epiphones are bad, and not all Gibsons are good.
I get the allure of having Gibson on the headstock, but Gibson has slid a long way from their former glory.
Just because it's heavy, doesn't mean it's the best. lol
Keyboard enthusiasts and guitar players/tone snobs have a lot more in common than not. :))
I like to draw auto analogies, however the 1980s were a crap time for car quality.
Was it that bad? Or do you have particular manufacturers in mind?
I like to draw auto analogies, however the 1980s were a crap time for car quality.Bah, my '86 190E was still driving after half a million kilometres xD . My brother's 230E did more than that I think xD .
I like to draw auto analogies, however the 1980s were a crap time for car quality.Bah, my '86 190E was still driving after half a million kilometres xD . My brother's 230E did more than that I think xD .
Actually loads of cars from the 80s were great, at least where I'm from; pure mechanical. Much more reliable than the electronic parts in modern-day cars.
Was it that bad? Or do you have particular manufacturers in mind?
It was the pits for US auto makers, and the Japanese had not hit their stride yet. The only European car from the 1980s that I personally owned was a late-1980s Volvo that was excellent except for poor gas mileage and it wore out brakes at a ridiculous rate.
Not to bash, but aren't US cars complete trash and unreliable anyways? Or am I wrong?
Not to bash, but aren't US cars complete trash and unreliable anyways? Or am I wrong?
The 1980s were particularly bad, then quality improved into the early 2000s but then started slumping again until the crisis/bailout.
Quality seems to have improved considerably in the last few years.
Still, I plan to drive Hondas and Toyotas from here on out.
American cars are a very good at turning petrol into noise :p . They don't really steer, but that's not really necessary on American roads anyway. They're also not built to last from what I gathered, but again, things generally aren't expected to last as long in the US as they do in Europe - New World Syndrome xD .
Was it that bad? Or do you have particular manufacturers in mind?
It was the pits for US auto makers, and the Japanese had not hit their stride yet. The only European car from the 1980s that I personally owned was a late-1980s Volvo that was excellent except for poor gas mileage and it wore out brakes at a ridiculous rate.
Not to bash, but aren't US cars complete trash and unreliable anyways? Or am I wrong?
American cars are a very good at turning petrol into noise :p . They don't really steer, but that's not really necessary on American roads anyway. They're also not built to last from what I gathered, but again, things generally aren't expected to last as long in the US as they do in Europe - New World Syndrome xD .
That said, of all the European brands I really only rate German and Italian cars. And apart from a few sports cars, I don't think there's been a great-looking car in ages.
Unfortunately, Windows pointer settings apply to all pointing devices connected to the machine, and are not all equal in terms of tracking performance
I think someone is insulted :)) . Sorry mate, didn't mean to offend :) .
Do various form factors have an effect on the overall feel, or are they mostly the same?
Is there also a TKL / 87 Unicomp?
Is there also a TKL / 87 Unicomp?
Yes, 11 days ago.
I cannot find it on unicomp website though
I cannot find it on unicomp website though
Gotcha!
April 1 is an informal holiday in the US.
In my opinion, IBM vs. Unicomp is akin to Gibson vs. Epiphone. Given the choice, I don't know anyone who'd prefer an Epiphone Les Paul Standard over an original Gibson Les Paul Standard.
While I agree with you in regards to keyboards, not all Epiphones are bad, and not all Gibsons are good... :))
I never said Gibson is the be-all-end-all. The point was that Epiphone is Gibson's budget line of Les Paul's.
I always liked how IBM put gaps where the Windows keys should have been instead of putting a function key or something... It's kind of their way of sticking it to Microsoft, "We COULD have put a Windows key here but we didn't ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Back on topic. Has anyone used for a longer period of time various Unicomp models? Do various form factors have an effect on the overall feel, or are they mostly the same?
As for layouts, I think their new layout is a big improvement over their old one.
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.Unicomp have mentioned that they find it difficult to make them profitable. Obviously, because they can't ask anywhere near what they used to cost in the IBM days, and the market has shrunk immensely. Furthermore, they last forever, so their turnover is extremely poor. That said, I don't think they're teetering or anything.
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.Unicomp have mentioned that they find it difficult to make them profitable. Obviously, because they can't ask anywhere near what they used to cost in the IBM days, and the market has shrunk immensely. Furthermore, they last forever, so their turnover is extremely poor. That said, I don't think they're teetering or anything.
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.Unicomp have mentioned that they find it difficult to make them profitable. Obviously, because they can't ask anywhere near what they used to cost in the IBM days, and the market has shrunk immensely. Furthermore, they last forever, so their turnover is extremely poor. That said, I don't think they're teetering or anything.
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.Unicomp have mentioned that they find it difficult to make them profitable. Obviously, because they can't ask anywhere near what they used to cost in the IBM days, and the market has shrunk immensely. Furthermore, they last forever, so their turnover is extremely poor. That said, I don't think they're teetering or anything.
This speech pretty much sums it up:
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.
I bought one. It's just fine.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/EufKl8b.jpg)
I wonder how many people buy a unicomp.I have a Spacesaver M and have no issues with it. It's a great keyboard and the quality is excellent.
In my opinion, IBM vs. Unicomp is akin to Gibson vs. Epiphone. Given the choice, I don't know anyone who'd prefer an Epiphone Les Paul Standard over an original Gibson Les Paul Standard.
While I agree with you in regards to keyboards, not all Epiphones are bad, and not all Gibsons are good... :))
I never said Gibson is the be-all-end-all. The point was that Epiphone is Gibson's budget line of Les Paul's.
Gotta say, unless you're talking about one-off, handmade guitars from Gibson's Nashville Custom Shop (big bucks!), I think the whole Gibson/Epiphone thing these days is just marketing. People are willing to pay a lot more for a more prestigious name on a peghead, so people will see how much money they had to spend.
Unicomp keyboards are great value: what other manufacturers offer mechanical keyboards with PBT key caps for $84? I cringe whenever I see keyboards on sale for hundred of dollars/euros and they offer ABS key caps.
Compared to IBM Model M keyboards, Unicomp ones:
- have Windows keys (invaluable with some programs);
- are native USB (so you don't have to look for an adapter that works);
- offer more colour choices.
Unicomp keyboards may have some blemishes, but AFAIK they never impact usability or produce squeaky sounds.
Also, how much would a new IBM Model M cost today? If it would cost much more than a Unicomp, than it is not fair to compare them on finish.
For me, Unicomp keyboards are just better overall.
Unicomp keyboards are great value: what other manufacturers offer mechanical keyboards with PBT key caps for $84? I cringe whenever I see keyboards on sale for hundred of dollars/euros and they offer ABS key caps.
Compared to IBM Model M keyboards, Unicomp ones:
- have Windows keys (invaluable with some programs);
- are native USB (so you don't have to look for an adapter that works);
- offer more colour choices.
Personally, I don't own any programs that require the Windows key, nor consider it invaluable to any programs I use. It's convenient for bringing up the Start menu, but that's about it in my case.
Adapter's are easy to find.
In many cases it can be cheaper to purchase an IBM Model M and an adapter than to buy a new Unicomp.
And more color choices? Cases come in black and white.
Unicomp keyboards may have some blemishes, but AFAIK they never impact usability or produce squeaky sounds.
Of course it doesn't affect usability. Neither does the flashing around the key caps or the creaky case, but it demonstrates a lack of quality control. And yes, Unicomp cases creak.
Also, how much would a new IBM Model M cost today? If it would cost much more than a Unicomp, than it is not fair to compare them on finish.
No one knows how much it would cost IBM today because they haven't manufactured them in well over two decades. Further, you can find original IBM manufactured Model M's for less than a new Unicomp and in some cases that's including the adapter.
For me, Unicomp keyboards are just better overall.
Better in what way?
Again, Unicomp sells keyboards with PBT keycaps for 84$. Can you name another manufacturer that does the same?reputable brand: Cherry Corp.
Unicomp keyboards are great value: what other manufacturers offer mechanical keyboards with PBT key caps for $84? I cringe whenever I see keyboards on sale for hundred of dollars/euros and they offer ABS key caps.
Compared to IBM Model M keyboards, Unicomp ones:
- have Windows keys (invaluable with some programs);
- are native USB (so you don't have to look for an adapter that works);
- offer more colour choices.
Personally, I don't own any programs that require a Windows key, nor consider it invaluable to any programs I use. It's convenient for bringing up the Start menu, but that's about it in my case.
You have never used GNU Emacs
Adapter's are easy to find.
But they don't always work. That has been my experience, at least.
In many cases it can be cheaper to purchase an IBM Model M and an adapter than to buy a new Unicomp.
You aren't talking about NOS IBM Model Ms, are you? Used keyboard are hit and miss.
And more color choices? Cases come in black and white.
And gray.
And thanks to Unicomp, we can have blank keys.
Unicomp keyboards may have some blemishes, but AFAIK they never impact usability or produce squeaky sounds.
Of course it doesn't affect usability. Neither does the flashing around the key caps or the creaky case, but it demonstrates a lack of quality control. And yes, Unicomp cases creak.
I am sure that if Unicomp could sell refined keyboards for what they are worth, I am sure that quality control would "mysteriously" disappear. Again, Unicomp sells keyboards with PBT keycaps for 84$. Can you name another manufacturer that does the same?
Also, how much would a new IBM Model M cost today? If it would cost much more than a Unicomp, than it is not fair to compare them on finish.
No one knows how much it would cost IBM today because they haven't manufactured them in well over two decades. Further, you can find original IBM manufactured Model M's for less than a new Unicomp and in some cases that's including the adapter.
Please let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Unless you are talking about new IBM Model Ms, your point is moot, don't you agree?
For me, Unicomp keyboards are just better overall.Better in what way?
Please read above. Long live Unicomp! ;)
I just think that it is not fair to compare an used item to a new one.
Maybe, in the USA, used IBM Model Ms are easy to find and cheap, but here in Europe they command high prices. I have seen them on sale for 80€ (90.33$) plus shipping, therefore making a Unicomp a much better proposition.
The difference is that a new keyboard can be plugged in and used, whereas an used one may contain someone else's surprises, thus needs thorough cleaning, which requires some time and effort, and a very specific type of screwdriver. Prices of refurbished Model Ms from trustworthy sources are usually significantly higher.
That difference has to be quantified to be "worth" something.
Time, materials and tools necessary to restore an old keyboard are quantifiable.
In terms of fonts? Absolutely.
Considering the original cost of the IBM variants, two hours worth of non-critical restoration is well-worth the going rate when compared on a qualitative level to a new Unicomp.I'm repeating myself, but again: that's horse****.
Considering the original cost of the IBM variants, two hours worth of non-critical restoration is well-worth the going rate when compared on a qualitative level to a new Unicomp.I'm repeating myself, but again: that's horse****.
IBM Model M doesn't type better than an unicomp. I have yet to see a proof that old ibm membrane/rivets/… last significantly longer than unicomp's.
In terms of fonts? Absolutely.
Well, I meant durability and feeling; but I guess fonts would be relative as well.
In terms of fonts? Absolutely.
Well, I meant durability and feeling; but I guess fonts would be relative as well.
There doesn't seem to be any difference in either regard, though there tends to be flashing around the bottom edge of some of Unicomp's caps.
it seems like every other Model F is missing a few caps and Unicomp has some
In terms of fonts? Absolutely.
Well, I meant durability and feeling; but I guess fonts would be relative as well.
There doesn't seem to be any difference in either regard, though there tends to be flashing around the bottom edge of some of Unicomp's caps.
Cool, it seems like every other Model F is missing a few caps and Unicomp has some keysets for a decent price. Thanks for that
In terms of fonts? Absolutely.
Well, I meant durability and feeling; but I guess fonts would be relative as well.
There doesn't seem to be any difference in either regard, though there tends to be flashing around the bottom edge of some of Unicomp's caps.
Cool, it seems like every other Model F is missing a few caps and Unicomp has some keysets for a decent price. Thanks for that
I have a couple of Unicomp sets, and it's worth noting that while the color is close to the original, it's not indistinguishable(ie. not an exact match). Just something to keep in mind if you ever plan to replace missing caps on an original M or F.
I just think that it is not fair to compare an used item to a new one.
The fact one is new and the other isn't is fairly irrelevant, in my opinion.
For example, if you compare a brand new IBM Model M (1391401) with a used one, the primary difference will likely be key feel; the older Model M will likely feel a bit more mushy due to spring wear and possibly some broken rivets.
And new or not, Unicomp is advertising their keyboards as 'original' Model M's which leaves the impression that they meet IBM's standards, in my opinion.
My position is simply that if you have a choice, I'd almost always recommend the IBM variant.
I just think that it is not fair to compare an used item to a new one.
The fact one is new and the other isn't is fairly irrelevant, in my opinion.
But I was criticizing the price comparison. It is not fair to compare the price of an used item with that of a new one, is it?
But then, AFAIK, IBM itself lowered the quality of each subsequent version of the Model M.
Unicomp is manufacturing its keyboards with the machinery that they bought from IBM, and that is as close to the original as you can get.
My position is simply that if you have a choice, I'd almost always recommend the IBM variant.
If I didn't need the Windows keys and I could get either a NOS/lightly used IBM or a Unicomp, then I would go for the IBM as well, because I agree that their finish is better and that they look more refined.
Even used IBM Model M's frequently clean up so well as to look practically new. And while I like a crisp click, [...]
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Even used IBM Model M's frequently clean up so well as to look practically new. And while I like a crisp click, [...]
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.
Now this comment makes no sense at all. If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod. You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way. This method is not recommended.
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.
Now this comment makes no sense at all. If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod. You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way. This method is not recommended.
It's more than obvious that if you plan to change all of the springs in a M that it's irrelevant whether there are broken rivets as it's impractical to change them all via the chopstick method. However, springs may not be solely responsible for mushy keys and that was the point.
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.
Now this comment makes no sense at all. If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod. You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way. This method is not recommended.
It's more than obvious that if you plan to change all of the springs in a M that it's irrelevant whether there are broken rivets as it's impractical to change them all via the chopstick method. However, springs may not be solely responsible for mushy keys and that was the point.
Oh heck, did you read what you told that guy?
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.
Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?
Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway. If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all. What a bad recommendation to give to someone.
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.
Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?
How is my comment recommending anything? And if I knew Unicomp's tool wasn't attainable, why would I bother to call and ask?Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway. If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all. What a bad recommendation to give to someone.
And what did I recommend exactly? Secondly, Unicomp will replace the springs and pivot plates for a nominal fee.
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.
Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?
How is my comment recommending anything? And if I knew Unicomp's tool wasn't attainable, why would I bother to call and ask?Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway. If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all. What a bad recommendation to give to someone.
And what did I recommend exactly? Secondly, Unicomp will replace the springs and pivot plates for a nominal fee.
If you can't even acknowledge what you said earlier, why should I explain it to you?
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
STOOPID ALERT!
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
STOOPID ALERT!
Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+confirmation)
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
STOOPID ALERT!
Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+confirmation)
You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
STOOPID ALERT!
Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+confirmation)
You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.
Ad hominems mean nothing to me. Either back up your assertion or don't. Otherwise, you're just resorting to insults, and insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal.
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
STOOPID ALERT!
Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+confirmation)
You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.
Ad hominems mean nothing to me. Either back up your assertion or don't. Otherwise, you're just resorting to insults, and insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal.
Ok. You did this to yourself.
Refreshing springs, as part of an overall rehab, is probably is good idea, but not earth-shattering.
After a bolt mod you can do considerable "tuning" by tightening and loosening the screws.
It is surprising how much adjustment there is, and cranking them all down hard will make the keyboard unusable.
My favorite results come from holding the socket in my fingertips, going to "just finger tight" - then backing off a quarter of a turn.
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?
The first natural tendency will be to screw everything down too tight.
If you go too tight, you will flex or warp the barrel plate and some or all of the "flippers" will not be able to flip because they are squeezed down.
Or just crack the barrel plate horizontally and have to get a new one.
Or just crack the barrel plate horizontally and have to get a new one.
I don't think that is too likely to happen because the forces are spread pretty evenly along a wide (nearly) flat surface, and you are actually pulling the barrel plate into the inside of the curvature.
You are far more likely to crack the plate when you pry the pieces apart. At any rate, a small crack won't matter too much after the mod is completed because the screws will keep it nicely in place anyway.
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
Unfortunately, the IBM ones you can nowadays get seem to have deteriorated so much that it is more advisable to buy a new Unicomp. Or buy both and put the innerts of the Unicomp into the IBM case.
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
Unfortunately, the IBM ones you can nowadays get seem to have deteriorated so much that it is more advisable to buy a new Unicomp. Or buy both and put the innerts of the Unicomp into the IBM case.
I disagree, most IBM Model Ms are in good shape, aside from perhaps the plastic rivets which can easily be addressed with a relatively simple bolt/screw mod. Even those that are worse off are not difficult to rescue and doing so is much cheaper than buying a Unicomp just for its inferior internals.
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
No surprise there - eBayreliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
Ok, and where do you get these?
I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one. First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
The same places as IBM Model M these days, in principle.Ok, and where do you get these?reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one. First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
so basically only used keyboards if I follow what you mean when you bring up the f?
First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boardsUnicomp uses Lexmark's tooling. Lexmark didn't make Model F AFAIK. OG IBM's tooling isn't available.
It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boardsUnicomp uses Lexmark's tooling. Lexmark didn't make Model F AFAIK. OG IBM's tooling isn't available.
Unicomp isn't competent enough (or doesn't care) to make even SSK Model M. Meanwhile, you can look up the effort and resources, that went into Ellipse's Model F rebuild project.
The same places as IBM Model M these days, in principle.Ok, and where do you get these?reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one. First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
Plus, there's http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ for new F77/F62.
…and that's still without consideration for human factors other than familiarity.
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
so basically only used keyboards if I follow what you mean when you bring up the f?
Kishsaver is a Model F (F62) and those are made to order afaik. If you find a 100+ key Model F that is new in box buy it! It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boards
First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
If you are in the US, I might have a spare to sell you, but international is prohibitive due to cost and risk.
Here is the process:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948)
Look for a label like this:
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.
The Ctrl key wasn't sticky when I got it, it only became so after a couple years of use. It's ok when I press it in the middle, yet many times I happen to press it at the side and then it 's just annoying.
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.
The Ctrl key wasn't sticky when I got it, it only became so after a couple years of use. It's ok when I press it in the middle, yet many times I happen to press it at the side and then it 's just annoying.
Ironically, I had something similar happen with my Unicomp. Swapping the offending key with a new (or different) one fixed it.
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model FOk, what's the better alternative?Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.LOL, no.
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F
…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
so basically only used keyboards if I follow what you mean when you bring up the f?
Kishsaver is a Model F (F62) and those are made to order afaik. If you find a 100+ key Model F that is new in box buy it! It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boards
unicomp doesnt have the tooling. I didnt know kishaver boards were made to order I thought they were just a one time mass buy. I may get one later when I have money for them. I love my model f right now but new things would be nice too
I think the wiki is wrong. Says this has brother buckling spring, which it does not. It's made in the USA per the back label.
The world would you recommend something that you can't obtain Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway. If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all. What a bad recommendation to give to someone.
Unicomp needs a new logo.
And they need to sell a badge you can put in the upper left corner of the keyboard over that rectangle.
Unicomp needs a new logo.
And they need to sell a badge you can put in the upper left corner of the keyboard over that rectangle.
They sell lock light sticker replacements on their site: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/LED
And as far as I know they no longer use the blue logo lock light stickers.
I believe this sticker (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-METALLIC-CHROME-EFFECT-STICKER-LOGO-AUFKLEBER-30x12mm-813/123600973405?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Df619cb8e84984a3db340e7435a282653%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D123344421046%26itm%3D123600973405&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A9858b819-a1be-11e9-8b1f-74dbd1807315%7Cparentrq%3Ad343b50416b0a9cb304baf85ff875418%7Ciid%3A1) will fit in the rectangle. In fact I was just thinking of getting it myself:
Unicomp needs a new logo.
Unicomp needs a new logo.
They need to actually try.
It saddens me that what started as a project by enthusiasts has been left to crumble so quickly. They don't really seem to care anymore. The potential is there if they would capitalize on it.
Although I'm happy that Unicomp exists, and that I can get a keyboard from them anytime, there are so many things I would want to change or do if I was in charge (in the approximate order of priority):
- Redesign the controller boards so that the membrane actually slots into something rather than just allowing the board to rest on top of the membrane. This is the biggest weakness of current Unicomp boards, as keys stop registering when the components slide out of position.
- Bring back the SSK, and/or create a new 60% layout.
- Redesign the membrane so that rollover is improved - it's not terrible but there are plenty of optimizations that could be made, especially around the WASD cluster. And especially for the PC 122s, which have one of the worst matrices I've ever seen in a keyboard.
- Bring back the old IBM keycap font, and fix the alignment issues.
- Provide an Industrial Gray case option.
- Better lock light sticker options: simple text labels are the best way to go.
I've been happy with the Unicomps I've used, but there is so much more they can do if they take a harder look at the growing enthusiast market.
Although I'm happy that Unicomp exists, and that I can get a keyboard from them anytime, there are so many things I would want to change or do if I was in charge (in the approximate order of priority):
- Redesign the controller boards so that the membrane actually slots into something rather than just allowing the board to rest on top of the membrane. This is the biggest weakness of current Unicomp boards, as keys stop registering when the components slide out of position.
- Bring back the SSK, and/or create a new 60% layout.
- Redesign the membrane so that rollover is improved - it's not terrible but there are plenty of optimizations that could be made, especially around the WASD cluster. And especially for the PC 122s, which have one of the worst matrices I've ever seen in a keyboard.
- Bring back the old IBM keycap font, and fix the alignment issues.
- Provide an Industrial Gray case option.
- Better lock light sticker options: simple text labels are the best way to go.
I've been happy with the Unicomps I've used, but there is so much more they can do if they take a harder look at the growing enthusiast market.
As soon as you have taken a Model M and a Model F apart you will realize that they are totally different in every way and that the only parts that they have in common are the key caps.
I believe this sticker (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-METALLIC-CHROME-EFFECT-STICKER-LOGO-AUFKLEBER-30x12mm-813/123600973405?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Df619cb8e84984a3db340e7435a282653%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D123344421046%26itm%3D123600973405&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A9858b819-a1be-11e9-8b1f-74dbd1807315%7Cparentrq%3Ad343b50416b0a9cb304baf85ff875418%7Ciid%3A1) will fit in the rectangle. In fact I was just thinking of getting it myself:
I think the problem Unicom faces is that a LOT of gamers won’t touch them, because they don’t have NKRO.The actuation distance, and RGB! Unicomp wold have to create Buckling Spring RGB Speed switches if they are going to appeal to gamers.