geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ikonomov on Wed, 13 January 2016, 16:55:54
-
The search for the perfect keyboard continues, and two days ago I placed an order for iKBC G-87. I currently have Filco Majestouch and Ducky Zero. Will this tireless endeavor ever end, and why do we care? I will try to write a short review when it arrives, but for now I thought about sharing some of my ideas to try to answer those questions.
Let us for a moment try to imagine the story of the Keyboard (capital K) in which we have a happy ending. The year is 1985 and IBM decides that despite the market demanding lower prices it will continue producing Model F. Computers evolve, interfaces change, but IBM evolves being the successful company that it is and continues to satisfy the needs of its happy customers...
Unfortunately that wasn't meant to be, and what happened was Model M. After the storm of the "affordable PCs" even the cheaper Model M keyboard wasn't cheap or exciting enough and the last goodbyes were said. It quietly retreated to the cozy corners of people's basements and school's storage rooms where it would patiently wait for the chance to show its magic on the used market. If only that was the ending, but the drama continued with the last nails in the coffin being placed by Unicomp.
As successful as Unicomp have been to seize an opportunity, they have completely misunderstood the market. Just because the technology behind Model M is liked by the community it does not mean that they can afford to not satisfy the demands of its current users. The market for quality keyboards is growing; people have realized the need for having a comfortable keyboard that they spend a large portion of their lifetime typing on. The reason why Unicomp have been unable to attract new customers is theirs alone, and it has nothing to do with the great technology that they have acquired. The following three questions begged being asked to Unicomp, as a company that has failed to address the needs of its customers.
1. Where is NKRO with full speed USB controllers? 6KRO might be enough, but 2KRO is absolutely NOT.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/plan-for-nkro-in-a-model-m-t6763.html
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40111
2. Where are the TKL and 60% models? Broken molds, or broken something else…
3. Why aren’t there any new Model F keyboards being developed and produced?
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046.html
The #1 and #2 are urgent; they needed to be addressed 3 years ago. Let’s hope they get it done soon, like tomorrow, before somebody makes a successful Kickstarter and creates cheap manufacturing rig in China and it is all over. It will happen sooner rather than later, and when it does Unicomp won’t be able to continue hiding in the shadows anymore hoping nobody notices. Somebody will be laughing then, but it won’t be the people over at Unicomp. The patents for Model M and Model F have long expired. Doing #3 along with #1 and #2 will place Unicomp in a very unique spot, allowing them to claim a position as a premier (read lots of $$$) keyboard manufacturer, and I believe will ensure a safe haven from the impending invasion.
I’m not a buckling spring user, but if they were available for under $500 I will own a compact TKL Model M and especially F with NKRO. Not all is grim in the history of keyboards, however, and thanks to the lack of quality keyboards some years ago Cherry MX and Topre were born to fill in the gaps. Both have great mechanical switches, and they provide more options to the consumers. Although Topre is not for me, it seems to be flourishing and that is great news to the consumer. The Cherry MX story is still being written, and lately some moves within the industry are a bit mystifying, leading me to believe that many of the manufacturers are not responding appropriately to the market pressures.
Cherry MX keyboard 101:
1. Cherry MX switches (Made in Germany)
2. Full, TKL, 60% form factor.
3. Compact design. No, Logitech, your useless wrist rests and extra buttons will not sell the keyboard, the quality mechanical switches in it will, together with your great software.
4. Standard layout. Apparently some companies decided that having strange first row spacing is cool. No, it isn’t. Filco are probably the first that made the decision what the spacing should be, and it became standard for cherry MX keyboards. It is what it is. Trying to be different here does not get you any love from the community.
5. 2 layer PCB. More durability is great, and there is no reason not to have it now, allowing people to safely mod their keyboards.
6. Full speed USB NKRO controller with a dip switch on the back for 6KRO compatibility mode. PS2 is dead, good bye, you served well. There is no reason today why NKRO shouldn’t be a standard mode for anybody, even if people never need it. Although an Fn toggle works, there are a few problems with it. First, it forces the keyboard to have a default mode. The computer always supplies power to the USB peripherals, even when turned off, but if one was to unplug the computer, or unplug the keyboard, the keyboard will go back to its default state the next time it is plugged in. The next problem is that it is difficult to know in which mode the keyboard is in, unless there is an LED indicator light. And having a f...ing LED light on all the f…ing time when in NKRO mode gets pretty f…ing annoying after a while. So the perfect solution: dip switch 6KRO/NKRO with a full speed USB NKRO controller allowing full functionality of the keyboard in both Mac and Windows.
7. No more LEDs, please. OK, I will admit, being able to control every LED individually in 255 different RGB values using software and on the fly profile switching can be useful. But everything short of that and it is pretty useless feature. Not to mention that it greatly limits the selection of keycaps and that having keycaps with transparent lettering makes the legends harder to read when not lit.
8. Caps Lock, Scroll Lock and Num Lock go on separate LEDs on the keyboard cover, NOT on LEDs on the keys themselves. The reasons should be very obvious by now. First, all popular opaque keycap sets do not have those keys with transparent LED indicators. Second if the keyboard is backlit, there is no reason for those keys to not be backlit like the rest.
9. Please sell the keyboard with cheap ABS top printed keys. There is no way to satisfy the taste of every customer as it would be impractical to sell 20 different versions of the same keyboard with different keycaps. Rather include a cheap set, and focus on making quality keycaps and offer them as an accessory.
10. Software. Unfortunately because big companies like Logitech, Razer, Roccat and Corsair have completely missed their mark on many of the above mentioned points, most of us are stuck having to look elsewhere to other less desirable alternatives. Regardless, their very well developed software with the ability to do custom key mappings with on the fly profile switching could definitely be a great selling point of any keyboard. Many might never use it, including myself, but that does not mean that having this functionality is useless.
11. I’m among the people that like to use Cherry stabilizers because there are no problems with thick PBT keycaps.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2l1xqg/guide_fixing_grindingsticking_thick_pbt_keycaps/
As such, I would like to see more manufacturers that use cherry stabilizers follow Ducky and start selling their keyboards with clipped cherry stabilizers.
12. I like to use o-rings and thick PBT keycaps. Currently only the Ducky PBT keycaps work well with this setup in mind. With Cherry profile the o-rings reduce the travel too much.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60729.0
Vortex profile has one of the struts that support the stem removed, and as a result the o-rings cause the keycap to slightly tilt and wobble when bottoming. It is not clear to me why they chose this design. If there are LEDs they can be on either side, and OEM keycaps that have normal 4 struts do not touch the top of the LEDs. The lack of this 4th strut is trying to solve a problem that does not exist in the first place. As can be seen in my picture below, normally the o-rings make contact with the base of the switch in only two places. The hole of the piston is too wide, so the left and right sides of the o-ring don’t really make significant contact with the base. As little as it seems, it is adequate. With Vortex keycaps, however, the top contact where the red arrow is pointing is missing.
[attach=1] [attach=2]
13. I like to use thick PBT keycaps with OEM profile with dyesub or double shot legends. I do not understand why it is so difficult to have some sets available at all times with regular color schemes. Those include:
Gray with black legends.
Light and Dark Gray with black legends.
Black with white legends.
People will appreciate different colors and limited editions, as long as the basic sets are available at all times.
I have owned a Filco for a while now, and recently I have been using a Ducky Zero for which I wrote a review here. I have sent numerous Emails asking Ducky to release a firmware that makes NKRO the default mode with the NKRO LED indicator off. I have also asked them to fix their annoying default LED indicators for their useless key repeat feature. It can be turned off, but it is turned on by default, and when the keyboard or the computer is unplugged they light up on start. They have ignored my emails. Another small annoyance that I thought was going to be easy to ignore is the lack of the locks LED indicators, having PBT dyesubs. After using this keyboard for almost a year the annoyance is increasing. It is strange how such small details become important when they have been overlooked. It seems to me that the whole industry is putting their bets in the wrong places and the customers’ needs seem to have gotten lost in the endless race to feed us with the next useless and shiny feature.
I hope to hear people’s opinions on this. Is it possible that the whole industry is playing us for fools, hoping that if we are never quite content, they can keep selling us their flawed products and we’ll keep posting threads in this forum hoping that somebody is listening?
-
No product is perfect. Or there would only be one.
-
No product is perfect. Or there would only be one.
ERGODOX
-
Perfection is a changing state and objectionable depending on the person. For instance matto though the white fox was perfect and i think its terrible. Whereas I think something like the sq1800 or the rs96 is perfect but other people think its too much. If you want perfection I think you will have to build it yourself. There will always be something that is a little off with anything you purchase
-
I tried being as objective as I can. ERGODOX is a great example that different people like different things. Having more choices is great, but saying that, I feel like every company that designs a keyboard within their own already rich catalog should strive for perfection. Perfection might be an unattainable goal, but the very act of trying to get to it is I think well worth it. I look at Model F and I see close to perfection for the time that it was designed. I look at Topre RF, and although I will not use one, I see an attempt for perfection. Every little detail matters, and when something is made in certain way there should have been a careful design decision that took place. This is especially true when the standards are already well established by a rich community.
-
I will admit that my eyes glazed over at the wall of what seemed like TL;DR, but I never really got whether you think Cherry is an end game or not (I think that it is safe to assume that the commercial market would not support a fresh new high-end buckling spring).
For the time being, one of the higher-end Alps TKLs might be a desirable compromise, ignoring all that stuff about lighting and DIP switches.
If you are good with your hands, a few hours at the work bench opens up more possibilities. My ANSI Model Fs and Filco Zero with blue Alps and PBT caps from an old Dell are examples.
-
ikonomov I am a little confused by your post. You link to the Brand New Model F 60% project and then later say that you'd consider a buckling spring 60% under $500. (your quote: "I’m not a buckling spring user, but if they were available for under $500 I will own a compact TKL Model M and especially F with NKRO."
I'm the coordinator for that project and the keyboards are actually for sale right now for $325 (base cost) at the project web site, www.modelfkeyboards.com. They are being made to order based on your color, layout, and key choices. The prototypes are of excellent condition and I have been typing on them over the past week or so. You would think that China means they are of inferior quality but that's no longer the case - the Chinese factories did a great job and even beat IBM's original Model F keyboards in terms of manufacturing tolerances.
I also made a video comparing their clickiness to other clicky Model M and Model F keyboards (posted on the above web site's home page).
-
Ellipse the 62 key looks great. I'm really happy that there is a 60% model F version available for order now. To me it does not matter where it has been manufactured. I was just criticizing Unicomp for not developing anything new with the technology that they seem to have bought from IBM. It seems that they have lost their chance. I'm interested in a TKL 84/87 key version. Is there a plan for a 87 or 84 key layout?
-
Sorry, for this project I decided to focus on two layouts and form factors that were in high demand and virtually unobtanium. The F77 is the closest version to the SSK as you can configure it just like an SSK but with the function keys being the second layer of the top row of keys.
Given the huge risks and tens of thousands in mold costs and tooling costs for my brand new model f keyboards, and the unexciting margins at a $325 price point, it is understandable that Unicomp is cautious to develop new products. They only inherited the Model M technology and not any Model F parts or technology according to what they told me.
-
Ellipse what you have accomplished is absolutely unbelievable. I'm sure that there was quite a bit of investment to get the project this far, but I would really like to encourage you to go a step further and develop both 87 and 104 key models. You have already come this far, you might as well go a bit further and really hit the holy grail of keyboards. I think you have a really great opportunity here. I can imagine that there would be a high demand for F62, but I question your decision to make the F77. While it might be unobtainable, posts here in this forum can be deceiving representing a very small poll of people. If you can get all three models, F62, F87 and F104 into production I think you might just be able to turn a new page into the history of mechanical keyboards. The only small criticism I have in order to reach what I believe could be a huge market for you is just the case design. You have gotten the right idea across with pure simplicity, but the curves and shape of the top plastic cover is not not up to par with the current design language of what a premium keyboard should look like. Here is a sketch of a possible modification of the top cover that might be a step closer.
[attach=1]
Cork is a nice touch, but it does not work both from an aesthetic point of view, and also from a technical. Cork shreds with use, and would definitely not be as durable in the long run as rubber. How about also the inclusion of simple but elegant and effective rubber feet to raise the keyboard, something similar to what the ONI TKL Aluminum Case has. https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_281_DSC_0773.jpg In addition, does the keyboard have 6KRO or NKRO? I believe NKRO is highly desirable, both from a technical and marketing stand point, but if it does, how can you toggle between 6KRO for compatibility and NKRO? How about the inclusion of a few dip switches on the bottom, say NKRO/6KRO, Win key lock, Mac mode. Does it use Full speed USB controller? I also think it is essential to have LED indicators for the Caps/Scroll/Num locks.
I have just recently stumbled on your project and it was a pleasant surprise. I'm not sure how you got the project forward during the development stage, but I believe you can and should use input from the community here that is available to you for ideas. This is something that surprisingly comes very difficult both on a personal and on a corporate level within larger companies, and I think one of the major reasons why many companies fail to meet the needs of their customers by not listening to feedback. You don't have this problem. If you don't think you can get this funded, you should do another Kickstarter. You should also not try predict the marketability of your F keyboards based on what is currently available on the new or used market. There is absolutely nothing available at the moment on the market that has the technical prowess of a good looking model F in 62/87/104 keyboard in standard key layout with USB and NKRO. Nothing. Once you gain the much needed initial momentum you will have a problem meeting the demands.
-
There is absolutely nothing available at the moment on the market that has the technical prowess of a good looking model F in 62/87/104 keyboard in standard key layout with USB and NKRO. Nothing.
I think that a lot of us have agreed many times that a straight-ANSI Model F (inherently NKRO for those who care) 87/104 in an all-metal case would be the Holy Grail keyboard for thousands of people, but I fear that Ellipse might have hit the saturation/burnout point with this niche hobbyist project.
-
Thanks ikonomov - yes this project will likely involves tens of thousands of dollars in tooling and mold costs.
I will catch you and everyone else up on the project - the design of the case is a reproduction of the 4704 Model F case designed originally by IBM. The intent of the project was a reproduction of IBM's original buckling spring metal case 60% and ~TKL keyboards, the 62-key and 77-key (in their original form) Model F's.
After a small amount of feedback (about 20 interested buyers) I am designing a very simple ultra-compact extruded metal type case as an alternative that will be available as early as the end of the month. Overwhelmingly people preferred this design (first rendering below) over my curved design not unlike what you suggested (second rendering below). Unfortunately I cannot make another intricate design like the original as that would add thousands of dollars in costs for new molds/tooling.
If anyone wants to volunteer their own simple extrudable design please let me know or feel free to post it.
The F77 is a big seller just like the F62 - we like our separate cursor or num pad keys :)! I collected an interest form with about 265 keyboards' worth of interest at the $325 base price. In the first week or week and a half so far about 100 keyboards have been ordered.
The default bumpers are cork-rubber like the original XT, but everyone has a choice of adhesive rubber feet or rubber+screw+nut bumpers with different height options at no extra charge. I have outlined the other bumper options on www.modelfkeyboards.com
The xwhatsit controller likely being used with this project supports full NKRO and uses USB. I've had no problems with typing even at ~100 WPM as shown in the test video on the above project home page.
Yes over the past year there has been a lot of input and great project supporters who have shaped this project - several thousand posts I believe.
The keyboards are going into production next month and the project does not need a minimum funding level. Each keyboard will be made to order based on the specifications you input when placing an order - case color, layout, keys, bumpers, etc.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
-
I remember clearly the time a few years back when I did a search for "high quality keyboards" and I stumbled upon this forum. After getting initiated into the technological advantages of a mechanical keyboard back then just about the most helpful thing on this forum was numerous lists of mechanical keyboard manufacturers. It was quite difficult back then to find a mechanical keyboard, apart from used IBM model M on ebay. For those that wanted a TKL version the two most logical (and possibly the only) choices were to either visit elitekeyboards.com and get a Filco or chase a Model M on ebay. Things have changed quite a bit since then. Kids that play games nowadays WANT a mechanical keyboard. The transition from a hobby to a multi million dollar product happen quite often in today's world.
Ellipse's current situation is in fact a bit unfortunate, and almost tragic and maybe even comical. What he has accomplished is nothing short of amazing and deserving all the admiration for his hard work. The reason it is tragic and comical is that he ran a 5,000 mile marathon, and in the end came 2 feet too short of winning. An all-metal case would have been nice, but plastic can convey an integrity in its design if done with care. What strikes me first, however, upon visiting his website is his case design. It is uninspiring and yells "niche hobbyist project" when it should be yelling "I'm the best, you NEED to own me". The next thing I notice is his F77 layout design. Upon discovering some strange 77 key layout and not a standard 87/104 key layout my mind set starts to go deeper into the dark and strange world of "niche hobbyist project". Do I even look or notice the price, and if I do would it matter? No and No.
I hope that we can inspire some confidence. Yes, price does matter, and unfortunately it matters especially at the start of the marketing of an ambitious endeavor like this. But I don't think that it is the price that is the problem here at the moment. I cannot endure browsing through kickstarter.com because 80% of the projects there make me disgusted of how stupid people must be to invest and support things that I would pay to have them removed from the world of human invention. Yet people support, and often with mind boggling sums of money. What Ellipse is doing is quite the opposite. Not only is the project brilliant from a technical stand point, but it is also coming at the right time in an already mature market ready to dominate at its forefront. I think we are not talking here about thousands of people, but millions. I just hope Ellipse is ready to walk those last two feet to the finish line and allow us to do the rest of the work for him.
-
Ellipse I just saw your post after posting my own. Both cases look great. A great improvement to your plastic case design. Unfortunately your TKL does not have 87 key layout design in order for me to buy one. I would suggest for you to consider including Caps Lock/Scroll Lock indicator LED.
-
Thanks ikonomov - my cases are full metal and powdercoated. We're looking at a shipping weight of about 10-11 pounds per keyboard assuming I go with zinc instead of aluminum! The inside shells are also metal (steel). I suggest taking a look at www.modelfkeyboards.com for an overview of all the cool features!
Are you knowledgeable in product design, launches, advertising, or marketing by chance? I could use all the help I can get in terms of those areas, especially advertising and marketing at this point in the project. We can talk on the thread or over PM if you'd like.
-
I can help out with product design. The rest I have no experience or knowledge of, unfortunately. I spent some time looking at the models you sent me. I think the blue case is a great looking keyboard, assuming that you make the plate supporting the keys curved as normal, and not flat the way you show it on the drawing. The black curved case looks a bit retro, but with small modification the idea can be taken a step further, I think.
[attach=1]
How about aiming to get the back plate to be the cover of the keyboard. Something similar to Corsair K70. A possible addition can be a second strip of metal at the top, as I drew it in the picture. You can then have countersunk bolts that screw in from the top, showing on the top to a great effect.
-
HHKB
-
Another proposal for a metal case. Having a top plate made out of aluminum will allow different color choices, since they can be anodized. Having a small bevel to the corners and edges should make it very elegant, unlike how it looks on my crude drawing.
[attach=1]
-
I remember clearly the time a few years back when I did a search for "high quality keyboards" and I stumbled upon this forum. After getting initiated into the technological advantages of a mechanical keyboard back then just about the most helpful thing on this forum was numerous lists of mechanical keyboard manufacturers. It was quite difficult back then to find a mechanical keyboard, apart from used IBM model M on ebay. For those that wanted a TKL version the two most logical (and possibly the only) choices were to either visit elitekeyboards.com and get a Filco or chase a Model M on ebay. Things have changed quite a bit since then. Kids that play games nowadays WANT a mechanical keyboard. The transition from a hobby to a multi million dollar product happen quite often in today's world.
Ellipse's current situation is in fact a bit unfortunate, and almost tragic and maybe even comical. What he has accomplished is nothing short of amazing and deserving all the admiration for his hard work. The reason it is tragic and comical is that he ran a 5,000 mile marathon, and in the end came 2 feet too short of winning. An all-metal case would have been nice, but plastic can convey an integrity in its design if done with care. What strikes me first, however, upon visiting his website is his case design. It is uninspiring and yells "niche hobbyist project" when it should be yelling "I'm the best, you NEED to own me". The next thing I notice is his F77 layout design. Upon discovering some strange 77 key layout and not a standard 87/104 key layout my mind set starts to go deeper into the dark and strange world of "niche hobbyist project". Do I even look or notice the price, and if I do would it matter? No and No.
I hope that we can inspire some confidence. Yes, price does matter, and unfortunately it matters especially at the start of the marketing of an ambitious endeavor like this. But I don't think that it is the price that is the problem here at the moment. I cannot endure browsing through kickstarter.com because 80% of the projects there make me disgusted of how stupid people must be to invest and support things that I would pay to have them removed from the world of human invention. Yet people support, and often with mind boggling sums of money. What Ellipse is doing is quite the opposite. Not only is the project brilliant from a technical stand point, but it is also coming at the right time in an already mature market ready to dominate at its forefront. I think we are not talking here about thousands of people, but millions. I just hope Ellipse is ready to walk those last two feet to the finish line and allow us to do the rest of the work for him.
Don't you think you're just imposing your desire on someone else's project? Ellipse's goal is clearly a highly faithful recreation of the F62 / F77 boards, not to produce their aesthetically modern versions. It's great that you have a strong sense of what you think is the ideal keyboard, and it's a great place to start if you'd like to pursue a project of your own. But don't call Ellipse's efforts tragic, it's rather disrespectful of both his commitment and his intentions.
-
Don't you think you're just imposing your desire on someone else's project? Ellipse's goal is clearly a highly faithful recreation of the F62 / F77 boards, not to produce their aesthetically modern versions. It's great that you have a strong sense of what you think is the ideal keyboard, and it's a great place to start if you'd like to pursue a project of your own. But don't call Ellipse's efforts tragic, it's rather disrespectful of both his commitment and his intentions.
I think my admiration to his efforts was clearly stated. Actually I just found out that Ellipse's project is a historical recreation of two keyboard models. The model F keyboards I have seen had all different layouts. This "little" detail had somehow escaped me. His keyboard comes with a USB controller, however, so it does seem to fall slightly short in terms of faithfulness. Regardless, the homage to the rarest of Model F's has been paid, and I say then that we are ready to take a bold step into the present and future to bring some magic from the past.
In response to your comment about my project vs his project, let's just say that not all of us here have to have a project in order to try to contribute something to the community. There is such thing as shared ideas, speaking of which I thank you for your criticism of my posts, but I think there are more productive places to direct your ideas towards.
-
Anyways, my enthusiasm is waning, it is not enough to create my own keyboard as KatzenKinder suggested. Ellipse I hope you find some inspiration to continue your ambitious endeavor with the model F.