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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: lisq199 on Fri, 19 February 2016, 16:01:51
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Until today, my daily driver has always been a Unicomp keyboard (buckling spring) and a Matias Tactile Pro (ALPS clone).
A while back, I ordered a Das Model S, which has Cherry MX Blue switches, and I hated it, because the keys were very scratchy, and longer keys like shift and enter were really stiff. And all the keys in general were hard to press, even noticeably harder than the Unicomp keyboard, which is really odd, because the actuation force of Blue is 50g and for buckling springs it's 60g. I know Das uses Greetech switches on some of their newer keyboards, but the one I got was definitely Cherry MX.
After hearing a lot of people say good thing about Cherry MX Blue, I decided to give Cherry MX Blue another chance, and I ordered a Filco Majestouch 2, which arrived an hour ago. And I swear that this keyboard feels completely different. Everything I hated about the Das keyboard is gone now. Coming from buckling springs, the keys feel light as a feather. I do still prefer the feels of buckling springs, but I think I'll use the Filco from now on mainly because of the lightness and quietness (I know...).
So here's the problem. WHY THE HELL do those 2 keyboards with the same switches feel so different???
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There are a lot of things that can lead to this happening. One of the most common things that have been diagnosed are the backplate materials. But you said that it feels scratchy, so backplate SHOULDN'T make that much of a difference with how it feels. It honestly is probably a flub on Das Keyboard's part, contact their support and ask them about it and maybe get a replacement/refund?
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There are a lot of things that can lead to this happening. One of the most common things that have been diagnosed are the backplate materials. But you said that it feels scratchy, so backplate SHOULDN'T make that much of a difference with how it feels. It honestly is probably a flub on Das Keyboard's part, contact their support and ask them about it and maybe get a replacement/refund?
Batch problems with MX blues.
I don't know who lubes the switch....cherry or the manufacturers they sell the switches in bulk to, but MX blues have been the most inconsistent switch in recent memory. Some have been good, some don't even click. Some of the ones that don't click wind up clicking after <5000 keypresses then click perfectly. Some perfect ones suddenly stop clicking after awhile. It's really hard to say.
If Cherry delivers the switches in bulk to Das, and Das just solders them in without any modification, then the fault is on Cherry's end. if Das assembles the switches themselves then it's on their end. I believe Cherry just delivers assembled switches in cartons through an OEM order.
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There are a lot of things that can lead to this happening. One of the most common things that have been diagnosed are the backplate materials. But you said that it feels scratchy, so backplate SHOULDN'T make that much of a difference with how it feels. It honestly is probably a flub on Das Keyboard's part, contact their support and ask them about it and maybe get a replacement/refund?
Batch problems with MX blues.
I don't know who lubes the switch....cherry or the manufacturers they sell the switches in bulk to, but MX blues have been the most inconsistent switch in recent memory. Some have been good, some don't even click. Some of the ones that don't click wind up clicking after <5000 keypresses then click perfectly. Some perfect ones suddenly stop clicking after awhile. It's really hard to say.
If Cherry delivers the switches in bulk to Das, and Das just solders them in without any modification, then the fault is on Cherry's end. if Das assembles the switches themselves then it's on their end. I believe Cherry just delivers assembled switches in cartons through an OEM order.
I highly doubt any manufacturer is doing anything other than just soldering the switches.
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For that matter, keycap material and weight can make a huge difference in the feel of the switch. One would think scratchiness would be more pronounced with thinner, lighter keycaps. Maybe that has something to do with it.
For example, the best feeling blues I've ever used are on my Dolch PAC. But those are also older, so maybe vintage blues are like vintage blacks.
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Backplate material and thickness.
Case material and thickness.
Desk surface type, thickness and keyboard positioning.
Plate mount vs. PCB mount (although both those boards are plate mount).
Switch batches.
Keycap material and thickness.
What eliminates a lot of those is using two of the same model keyboard from the same manufacturer with the same switches, like my two Ducky Shine 1. The first one I got always feels better than the second one, I don't know why. In isolation they are pretty much the same, although the second one had a couple of switches that didn't click properly at the start. I mashed those switches and they ave much better now.
Also MX greens are somewhat closer to buckling springs as they as much heavier than blues.
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Until today, my daily driver has always been a Unicomp keyboard (buckling spring) and a Matias Tactile Pro (ALPS clone).
A while back, I ordered a Das Model S, which has Cherry MX Blue switches, and I hated it, because the keys were very scratchy, and longer keys like shift and enter were really stiff. And all the keys in general were hard to press, even noticeably harder than the Unicomp keyboard, which is really odd, because the actuation force of Blue is 50g and for buckling springs it's 60g. I know Das uses Greetech switches on some of their newer keyboards, but the one I got was definitely Cherry MX.
After hearing a lot of people say good thing about Cherry MX Blue, I decided to give Cherry MX Blue another chance, and I ordered a Filco Majestouch 2, which arrived an hour ago. And I swear that this keyboard feels completely different. Everything I hated about the Das keyboard is gone now. Coming from buckling springs, the keys feel light as a feather. I do still prefer the feels of buckling springs, but I think I'll use the Filco from now on mainly because of the lightness and quietness (I know...).
So here's the problem. WHY THE HELL do those 2 keyboards with the same switches feel so different???
1- Bad stabilisers on bad keyboards (the stiffness)
2- Bad batch of Blue's
3- Blue's are not so good themselves
I have a blue batch that makes me want to cry, 50% doesn't click at all, 25% clicks weakly, only 10% has a strong click
The ultimate solution is to use tactile switches, it will be consistent for a long long time, while clicky switches might stop clicking at any point
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Is the Filco new or used?
MX Blues need to be broken in or "seasoned". New blues almost always feel friction-y or grind-y.
This is one of the reasons why people are trending towards Gateron blues at the moment. Gat blues feel great and snappy right out of the box.
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I bought my Ducky Shine 4 with blues new last April, and I would have to say each switch is insanely consistent, clicky, and bouncy. The entire board feels and sounds great to me.
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Well, in general, the same switch can feel different on different keyboards due to differences in the keyboard's construction...but that's probably not what's going on here.
MX Blue is really a gamble these days. You get ones from a good batch (or maybe even just from an old batch, when Cherry's consistency was better) and every last switch will be completely fine. Get ones from a bad batch and you'll wish you'd gone for clones instead. My own Das Ultimate (from back when Das used Cherry exclusively) had good blues, but the Deck I bought to replace it after it died had bad ones-- the difference was quite pronounced, to the point where the Deck had to be returned.
As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter what brand of keyboard you go for; you can still wind up with the bad switches if you buy from a brand with a very strong reputation. It's just a matter of luck.
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MX Blues need to be broken in or "seasoned". New blues almost always feel friction-y or grind-y.
This is one of the reasons why people are trending towards Gateron blues at the moment. Gat blues feel great and snappy right out of the box.
How are blues seasoned?
Are Gateron blues comparable to Cherry Mx blues?
Also, this feeling great and snappy right of the box, is this an opinion shared by a lot? Because if it is, I plan on changing my Cherry MX blues to Gaterons for an order I'm getting.
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MX Blues need to be broken in or "seasoned". New blues almost always feel friction-y or grind-y.
This is one of the reasons why people are trending towards Gateron blues at the moment. Gat blues feel great and snappy right out of the box.
How are blues seasoned?
Are Gateron blues comparable to Cherry Mx blues?
Also, this feeling great and snappy right of the box, is this an opinion shared by a lot? Because if it is, I plan on changing my Cherry MX blues to Gaterons for an order I'm getting.
Gateron Blues are a lot smoother, have a slightly snappier click, and feel a little lighter (possibly due to the smoothness) but their reliability is still out in the open.
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How are blues seasoned?
Simply by using them until they smoothen out. Could take half a year, maybe longer.
Gateron Blues are a lot smoother, have a slightly snappier click, and feel a little lighter (possibly due to the smoothness) but their reliability is still out in the open.
^Exactly this.
One of the Gat blue switches on my week-old Magicforce lost its clickyness overnight with no explanation. I've just ordered a handful of switches and will solder a replacement in this weekend. This incident would be enough to put most people off of Gaterons, but I'm relaxed about it because the typing experience is THAT good.
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I bought my Ducky Shine 4 with blues new last April, and I would have to say each switch is insanely consistent, clicky, and bouncy. The entire board feels and sounds great to me.
Hmm. I'm extremely unhappy with how my Ducky Shine 5 feels. Definitely the worst Cherry blues I've ever owned or tried. But it has to be said they are RGB blues, not regular blues.
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pardon me for necroposting, I felt it was worth it to add my two cents to the discussion
I've got the same problem: my first mech keyboard was Das professional with mx blues in 2012. The keyboard and switches were superb. They kept me same at the very stressful and demanding job involved a lot of typing at the most strenuous conditions. Maybe 6 moths later I've decided to buy second board to use at home. Here came the second Das pro with mx blues (bought from the same vendor). They felt nowhere similar. I've been using them consistently since, one at home and one in the office. They've never evened out. Later purchase of pok3r (my daily driver for the last two years) with mx blues added confusion. It is a completely different experience. I understand, that pok3r is a completely different product construction-wise.