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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: quasistellar on Fri, 26 February 2016, 13:41:36
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So, I have had mixed luck looking for this on the web:
I was wondering what the Matias Click and Quiet Click actuation curves looked like. Matias's website lists both the tactile bump and peak force of these switches at 60gf.
Does this mean that the actuation point is at 60gf, and then drops off similar to Topre and Buckling Spring? (as opposed to tactile Cherry that drops off after actuation and then ramps upward again on the downstroke)
Also, if you have tried these switches, how does the actuation force in actual use compare to Cherry Clears?
Thanks!
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The vast majority of electromechanical switches actuate before the tactile bump, to various degrees. The tactile and peak force are the same because the tactile force is the highest force in the travel other than bottoming out because, as you say, the force drops off after the tactile bump (hence why it's a tactile bump).
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So you're saying it feels more like, say, a Topre curve than a MX curve? (And yes I know Topre feels way different, I'm just referring to how it feels more like a "collapse" than a spring compressing a la MX)
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So you're saying it feels more like, say, a Topre curve than a MX curve? (And yes I know Topre feels way different, I'm just referring to how it feels more like a "collapse" than a spring compressing a la MX)
It doesn't feel like either; the dropoff on Matias switches is MUCH more sudden than on Topre or Cherry MX. As Cherry MX is barely tactile at all, I guess of the two Topre would feel closer though, yes. But again, they're really not that similar.
Here's the measured force curves for complicated Alps switches. Not the same as Matias, but you get the idea as it should be obvious from the graph how much more tactile Alps are than either - for reference, Matias is even more tactile than Alps are.
(http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/gif/alps22.gif)
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Ah, those curves tell me all I need to know. Somehow I missed that graphic in my searches.
What I don't like about MX switches is the increasing force following the tactile/actuation point.
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Another question: which of the Matias switches has the lightest spring? I've found some conflicting reports, but it seems that the Matias Click has the lightest spring, while the Quiet Click and Linear share the same spring? (Also, this seems to be because the tactile and clicky leafs have different tensions and they wanted the switch overall actuation the same?)
My ideal (non-Topre) switch is light, tactile, quiet, and with a higher tactile/actuation point than MX. For reference, I like Romer-G, but I wish they were more tactile and a little smoother, and I'd like to possibly mod Matias's switches to get what I want.
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Another question: which of the Matias switches has the lightest spring? I've found some conflicting reports, but it seems that the Matias Click has the lightest spring, while the Quiet Click and Linear share the same spring? (Also, this seems to be because the tactile and clicky leafs have different tensions and they wanted the switch overall actuation the same?)
My ideal (non-Topre) switch is light, tactile, quiet, and with a higher tactile/actuation point than MX. For reference, I like Romer-G, but I wish they were more tactile and a little smoother, and I'd like to possibly mod Matias's switches to get what I want.
Matias Quiet Linear is around 50g, Matias Click and Quiet Click are 60g, but Quiet Click may feel slightly lighter because it is less tactile.
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Another question: which of the Matias switches has the lightest spring? I've found some conflicting reports, but it seems that the Matias Click has the lightest spring, while the Quiet Click and Linear share the same spring? (Also, this seems to be because the tactile and clicky leafs have different tensions and they wanted the switch overall actuation the same?)
My ideal (non-Topre) switch is light, tactile, quiet, and with a higher tactile/actuation point than MX. For reference, I like Romer-G, but I wish they were more tactile and a little smoother, and I'd like to possibly mod Matias's switches to get what I want.
Matias Quiet Linear is around 50g, Matias Click and Quiet Click are 60g, but Quiet Click may feel slightly lighter because it is less tactile.
I've heard that some of the force in Matias switches is attributed to the tactile or clicky leaf, and that the spring itself may be lighter in the Quiet Click vs the Click. I can't remember where I saw that and for the life of me I can't find it again.
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Another question: which of the Matias switches has the lightest spring? I've found some conflicting reports, but it seems that the Matias Click has the lightest spring, while the Quiet Click and Linear share the same spring? (Also, this seems to be because the tactile and clicky leafs have different tensions and they wanted the switch overall actuation the same?)
My ideal (non-Topre) switch is light, tactile, quiet, and with a higher tactile/actuation point than MX. For reference, I like Romer-G, but I wish they were more tactile and a little smoother, and I'd like to possibly mod Matias's switches to get what I want.
Matias Quiet Linear is around 50g, Matias Click and Quiet Click are 60g, but Quiet Click may feel slightly lighter because it is less tactile.
I've heard that some of the force in Matias switches is attributed to the tactile or clicky leaf, and that the spring itself may be lighter in the Quiet Click vs the Click. I can't remember where I saw that and for the life of me I can't find it again.
If I remember correctly, all 3 uses different spring.
But I do own Matias Clicky ALPS and Matias Quiet ALPS, and later on tried the Linear from their headquarter (we had a tour there).
This is a rough estimate based on "feeling":
Clicky - 60g
Quiet - 55g
Linear - 35g
Yes the linear is much lighter than the rest. Actually if you go to their website (http://matias.ca/switches/) you'll see the number I listed is pretty close to their "spec" numbers.
Only thing is Quiet ALPS definitely feels lighter than Clicky ALPS. Not a lot but it's noticeable.
Hope this helps. :thumb:
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Thank you for the info. I just put in an order for 5 of each switch (quiet click, click, linear) and am going to do a bit of experimenting. I'll maybe make a new thread with what I find.
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Thank you for the info. I just put in an order for 5 of each switch (quiet click, click, linear) and am going to do a bit of experimenting. I'll maybe make a new thread with what I find.
lol cool let us know what you think later. :D
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First, sorry for the necro... but there is a good reason.
In short: I really want to see the actual force curve of Matias switches.
I had some fond memory of a few Alps switch keyboards back in my remote undergrad years. But then, my recent revisit of Alps switch keyboards show me some fact otherwise and puts me into the fear that none of the mechanical switches out there actually can please me. I want to know myself better more quickly (relative to the characteristics of switches out there) so as to cut the unnecessary journeys of my search for keyboards.
Here's my thinking:
- a tactile bump in the current mechanical switches (Alps via the shape of the metal leaf and Cherry MX via the bump on the 'legs' of the stem) is basically similar to you hitting the curb when you are driving a car in full speed.
(http://i.imgur.com/gsjyxWh.jpg?1)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/sitesdoneright/blogs/mechanical/cherry-blue.gif)(https://s3.amazonaws.com/sitesdoneright/blogs/mechanical/cherry-brown.gif)(http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Clear.gif)
- there is no 'tactile bump for the buckling spring switches. There is the "hitting the wall" when you press the key and start bending the spring, and then here comes the collapse/buckling of the spring. And if you bottom out, it's a hard landing.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/sitesdoneright/blogs/mechanical/buckling-spring.gif)(http://www.bbk.ac.uk/so/guidance/BOX5)
It's just a matter of taste, the above feel to rough for my fingers. It seems so at least for now.
People may dislike rubber dome, but yes I like Topre switches (which is a capacitive switch where the rubber dome gives you the tactile feel) and some higher-end rubber-dome switch implementations (e.g. IBM, Key Tronic, Chicony). They feel like ...
An octopus squeezing its head through the 1-inch hole:
It's similar to something squeezing into some kind of small hole, and stretching the hole... and, oh.... and then it finally comes through.
There's no bump, no hitting the wall, but a smooth increased resistance to a peak.
(http://cdn.overclock.net/7/77/77b5b81e_47c8a19470bee5776d40b14c142ca20d.jpeg)
And the landing is soft and cushioned while bottoming out.
I thought here is the end of my story, it seems like I can only be a linear person or a rubber-dome / Topre person.
However, here comes this curve of the Alps SKCMAT ('neon green'?) switches:
(https://deskthority.net/resources/image/14027)
From here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60956.5 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60956.5)
Which resembles much that of the Topre switches.
I speculate the force curve shouldn't be like this for any of the earlier complicated Alps switches, even for the beloved blue switches and orange switches. Would Matias switches have achieved something similar despite the wobbling stems?
This is what I want to know.
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I will say that after using the switches I've ordered, as well as some SKCM Orange I've obtained, that the tactile bump of Alps based switches (that I've used) is very different from MX.
The tactility of alps is "higher up"--you feel it right away and then it collapses--closer to the behavior of domes and Topre. On MX, the slider moves about 1mm, and then you feel a bump in the middle of the stroke. It's somewhat jarring and it's why people describe tactile MX switches as "linear switches with sand in them". The only tactile MX switch that has been different is MX Clear, since it has a much broader "bump" on the slider. Of course, they are hampered (in my opinion, of course) by springs that stiffen waaaaay too much as you press them, hence most people's love for "ergo clears" or Zealios or basically anything but stock springs, :P
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I will say that after using the switches I've ordered, as well as some SKCM Orange I've obtained, that the tactile bump of Alps based switches (that I've used) is very different from MX.
The tactility of alps is "higher up"--you feel it right away and then it collapses--closer to the behavior of domes and Topre. On MX, the slider moves about 1mm, and then you feel a bump in the middle of the stroke. It's somewhat jarring and it's why people describe tactile MX switches as "linear switches with sand in them". The only tactile MX switch that has been different is MX Clear, since it has a much broader "bump" on the slider. Of course, they are hampered (in my opinion, of course) by springs that stiffen waaaaay too much as you press them, hence most people's love for "ergo clears" or Zealios or basically anything but stock springs, :P
I pretty much agree with what you said especially about the "linear switches with sand in them", therefore I disliked Cherry switches (brown) when I first tried them.
I could never first an animation illustrating the mechanism of Alps switches by the way.
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I actually prefer the Cherry force curve. After the point of actuation the resistance increases and this decelerates the keystroke. I have not used or tried a Matias, but this is what turned me off to the idea of giving them a try. I could be wrong, but I very much dislike bottoming out.
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I will say that after using the switches I've ordered, as well as some SKCM Orange I've obtained, that the tactile bump of Alps based switches (that I've used) is very different from MX.
The tactility of alps is "higher up"--you feel it right away and then it collapses--closer to the behavior of domes and Topre. On MX, the slider moves about 1mm, and then you feel a bump in the middle of the stroke. It's somewhat jarring and it's why people describe tactile MX switches as "linear switches with sand in them". The only tactile MX switch that has been different is MX Clear, since it has a much broader "bump" on the slider. Of course, they are hampered (in my opinion, of course) by springs that stiffen waaaaay too much as you press them, hence most people's love for "ergo clears" or Zealios or basically anything but stock springs, :P
I pretty much agree with what you said especially about the "linear switches with sand in them", therefore I disliked Cherry switches (brown) when I first tried them.
I could never first an animation illustrating the mechanism of Alps switches by the way.
2 great youtube clips I've seen illustrate it very well:
Tactiles:
Clicky:
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If I'm not mistaken, the 2nd one is a dampened mod from the cream dampened.
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I live in NYC, and I have been fascinated by Matias switches for the past year. No retailer stores these for dislplay, so I would have to take a chance and buy one and see if I like it. this is hard to believe. Maybe someone knows of a retailer that has Matias switches on display and would save me a lot of trouble and heartache.
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Don't think there is one.