geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: exia on Sun, 06 December 2009, 19:20:47
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i didn't know such a forum could exist. there is so much to take in. ive been looking at the keyboard pics for the last hour and i see some pretty neat keyboards.
can anyone help me out? im looking a keyboard, just a plain keyboard but without the numpad. i see some pics around, not sure about the models. i also noticed that some keyboards can go over $200. im not looking to spend that much (yet). just looking for a good smaller keyboard as i rarely use the numpad, preferably less than $20. currently using a logitech access 600 to give you an idea where i am coming from and i also find it to be an excellent keyboard. so im looking for more of the same but smaller. it would be great if it was available in canada too, whether local or online, most of the keyboards ive seen here are either logitech or microsoft and it seems that they don't make smaller keyboards.
exia
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greetings!
For $20, you might want to snoop around ebay. A bunch of us just got compact brown cherry keyboards for about 20 shipped. The layout is a mess, but you never know what you'll find!
Also, for your price range, you might just want to look around for an IBM Model M. They're a great starting point, and can be had for pretty cheap. They're big and heavy, but the action is great.
For compact, try elitekeyboards.com and take a gander at the filco tenkeyless entries.
The IBM Spacesaver is also a popular model around these parts. It's a Model M, but without a numpad.
have fun!
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Welcome to geekhack. Have fun on these forums, they are quite amusing at times.
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Welcome to Geekhack.
Take a look at the Mechanical Keyboards Sorted By Switch wiki entry (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Mechanical+Switch+Keyboards+Sorted+By+Switch)and first watch the video that there is a link to there. Then report back on first thoughts what you may be looking for.
A LOT of different tenkeyless boards out there. The bad news is Mechanical Switch keyboards are more in the $30 (ebay used) to $150 (Filco, Steelseries, Das) range. Not cheap.
i had a quick look, i have never tried these mechanical keyboards before so i don't know what to expect.
im pretty much just looking for
small size
price
average key action (as long as it is not "bad" im fine with it, (i bought a bad keyboard a long time ago with really stiff keys and that was a complete waste of money) but 99% of the keyboards out there i feel fine typing with.)
im happy with my logitech access 600, $6 for a great keyboard but it is too big
i took a look at the apple keyboards and while they are a good size i need the home/end/page up/down keys, so i would prefer they be squished together on the right side (like on some laptop layouts) or just leave it be (keyboard would look like a full sized keyboard with the numpad cut off)
any suggestions?
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its not a hard number but i am open to suggestions
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People here like to call the keyboards with the number pads cut off "Tenkeyless". I'm not sure why. Maybe it's what the manufacturers call them. Anyway, getting a keyboard with the number pad cut off, or a tenkeyless, is a little more expensive than you think. Some models made by companies like IBM, FIlco, and Topre run upwards of $100.
If you like a compact size at a compact price, I would recommend getting a compact keyboard with a number pad. They're much cheaper and the number pad includes the Home/End and Page Up/Dn keys with NumLock off.
I found one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-PS-2-Cherry-Keyboard-MY1800-CYA-D-91275_W0QQitemZ380178921430QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item58846df7d6) on ebay. It's not the prettiest thing on the planet but I believe it has Cherry keyswitches, most likely the black linear variety. Plenty of people here have liked the black Cherry's.
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greetings!
For $20, you might want to snoop around ebay. A bunch of us just got compact brown cherry keyboards for about 20 shipped. The layout is a mess, but you never know what you'll find!
Also, for your price range, you might just want to look around for an IBM Model M. They're a great starting point, and can be had for pretty cheap. They're big and heavy, but the action is great.
For compact, try elitekeyboards.com and take a gander at the filco tenkeyless entries.
The IBM Spacesaver is also a popular model around these parts. It's a Model M, but without a numpad.
have fun!
hmm, coming from an typical computer user point of view i am not thrilled with the idea of a used keyboard, keyboards do get heavily used. do the members here have no problems with used keyboards or not?
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Give the BTC5100C a try. I actually liked it quite much, though some others here will disagree. Anyway these popup on eBay and might even be on Amazon quite often. Should go for around $20.
My mini review on the mini-keyboard: http://clicks.t.oomuch.info/2009/08/22/just-in-btc-5100c-mini-keyboard/
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IBM Model M4. I bought mine for $40, but thats for an M4-1. They are rubber sleeves keyswitches, similar to ruber dome, but they are like a laptop keyboard. They have no mumber pad. M4-1's have trackpoints in them. They might be hard to find though. There is currently an M$-1 selling on eBay for $41 BIN, but you said you would like to keep the price at $20. I'll look around and get back to you on that.
It seems there aren't any other M4's around that I can see, but you can always take someone elses advice on a keyboard. That is one thing we know here at geekhack, and thats keyboards.
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Many of the computer keyboards people purchase here are used. All the keyboards I've got have been used for at least 13 years (one used for 20, another for 22, another for 15) and they are great for typing. I haven't heard too many problems from others here with used keyboards as well. I would suggest including used keyboards in your search for a replacement keyboards as they tend to work just fine for a much lower price. Their downsides, however, are warrantees and dirtiness (the latter can be easily remedied). With lack of warrantees, I wouldn't spend too much on a used keyboard. But anything under $40 shouldn't be too big of a deal.
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Have a look at the HHKB lite on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/HHKB-Lite-2-Mini-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ230406303625QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item35a5492f89
Not much love for this board, though.
If you're looking for a mechanical compact, I have a Filco Tenkeyless (no numpad) with Cherry Brown (tactile, non-clicky) switches available, and I'm in Canada. The Filco w/ Cherry browns is pretty well received board around here. It won't be anywhere near $20, but PM me if you're interested.
Same a this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEO6WmtLlbA
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here is a nice keyboard (i am not sure which one i like better
wireless=no wire, but slight bigger surface near the top (which i dislike)
wire=smaller, but wired
as you can see it is missing the home/end/p up/p down/del keys, i might have to do some remapping to the less-used F keys. add that to play/fwd/bck/vol up/vol down for rhythmbox and im not sure if i have enough keys left
like i said earlier i would prefer if it came with the home/end/p up/p down/del keys on the right side
(http://fersatipkovnica.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/apple-wireless-keyboard-aluminum.jpg)
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I can't see the picture.
NVM I can see it now.
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Give the BTC5100C a try. I actually liked it quite much, though some others here will disagree. Anyway these popup on eBay and might even be on Amazon quite often. Should go for around $20.
My mini review on the mini-keyboard: http://clicks.t.oomuch.info/2009/08/22/just-in-btc-5100c-mini-keyboard/
what did you think of the up arrow key, i feel that has got to be awkward sometimes
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here is a nice keyboard (i am not sure which one i like better
wireless=no wire, but slight bigger surface near the top (which i dislike)
wire=smaller, but wired
as you can see it is missing the home/end/p up/p down/del keys, i might have to do some remapping to the less-used F keys. add that to play/fwd/bck/vol up/vol down for rhythmbox and im not sure if i have enough keys left
Probably a bit of a nightmare to comfortably type on for any length of time as I'm guessing it uses scissor switches - can anyone confirm the switch type? Also, what's the price on those apple boards - not $20 I'm assuming.
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So exia, you use Linux as your primary OS? I assume this because you mentioned rhythmbox.
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what did you think of the up arrow key, i feel that has got to be awkward sometimes
You are right, it will without a doubt take some time to get used to. I also disliked the placement of the function key, which goes where I would normally expect CTRL. But if you can get used to these quirks this is a decent board. I actually got it out of the box now and I'm typing on it now, cause I almost forgot I owned it :)
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Have a look at the HHKB lite on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/HHKB-Lite-2-Mini-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ230406303625QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item35a5492f89
Not much love for this board, though.
If you're looking for a mechanical compact, I have a Filco Tenkeyless (no numpad) with Cherry Brown (tactile, non-clicky) switches available, and I'm in Canada. The Filco w/ Cherry browns is pretty well received board around here. It won't be anywhere near $20, but PM me if you're interested.
Same a this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEO6WmtLlbA
hmm, for the first one where is the control key, is it the Fn key?
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Probably a bit of a nightmare to comfortably type on for any length of time as I'm guessing it uses scissor switches - can anyone confirm the switch type? Also, what's the price on those apple boards - not $20 I'm assuming.
around $50 to $70 or so. im just throwing some keyboards out there. not 100% sure what to spend for a keyboard as i never spent so much for one before. on the other hand i have the logitech mx revolution mouse which i find it to be the best mouse so far, lots of buttons to customize, (would be perfect if it was a bit flatter ,seems it was designed to be used with a mousepad with a wrist rest). never thought i would spend so much for a mouse way back when wireless mice were new and still very expensive.
its strange but after seeing some of the prices for some keyboards here i now find the apple keyboards to be not that expensive. before i thought it was ridiculous to pay the money for such a keyboard =)
So exia, you use Linux as your primary OS? I assume this because you mentioned rhythmbox.
ive been using ubuntu for a month now, so far im liking it so im think im gonna stick with it
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I found one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-PS-2-Cherry-Keyboard-MY1800-CYA-D-91275_W0QQitemZ380178921430QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item58846df7d6) on ebay. It's not the prettiest thing on the planet but I believe it has Cherry keyswitches, most likely the black linear variety.
Linky points to a Vintage PS/2 Cherry Keyboard MY1800 CYA D-91275. Avoid keyboards with MY in the name/model. It's got Cherry MY keys, which are the worst Cherrys on the planet.
I have two of those. Each has bad keys, won't work, were bad since before I owned them. I feel I overpaid for them, and they cost me $1 and $5 USD respectively. They're useful only for white key caps. You have been warned.
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hmm, coming from an typical computer user point of view i am not thrilled with the idea of a used keyboard, keyboards do get heavily used. do the members here have no problems with used keyboards or not?
I, for one, actually enjoy taking apart dirty and old keyboards, learning about their internals, and finally cleaning and restoring them.
I actually find the whole process to be a bit, therapeutic...
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I, for one, actually enjoy taking apart dirty and old keyboards, learning about their internals, and finally cleaning and restoring them.
I actually find the whole process to be a bit, therapeutic...
As long as you wear a dust mask to avoid hantavirus and other equally nasty dust borne biohazards.
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I also enjoy disassembling and cleaning old keyboards. I just wish I still had my dremel and soldering equipment :(
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IBM M4-1?
(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/_ebay/blackspace/0002121-001.jpg)
This guy sells them in good as new condition. (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-M4-1-Space-Saver-Keyboard-84G2525-Black-Unit-400_W0QQitemZ130348410987QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e595ee86b#ht_970wt_941)
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hmm, for the first one where is the control key, is it the Fn key?
On the HHKB Lite the Control key is above the left Shift.
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Have a look at the HHKB lite on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/HHKB-Lite-2-Mini-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ230406303625QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item35a5492f89
Not much love for this board, though.
If you're looking for a mechanical compact, I have a Filco Tenkeyless (no numpad) with Cherry Brown (tactile, non-clicky) switches available, and I'm in Canada. The Filco w/ Cherry browns is pretty well received board around here. It won't be anywhere near $20, but PM me if you're interested.
Same a this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEO6WmtLlbA
looks to be a good keyboard with a good price what is not to like?
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Non mechanical. They use some cheap rubber domes... Alot of people who get them end up tossing them and saving up for the Pro version.
its strange but after seeing some of the prices for some keyboards here i now find the apple keyboards to be not that expensive. before i thought it was ridiculous to pay the money for such a keyboard =)
The sort of keyboards that people buy around here are much better than the apple ones. The apple ones are more expensive in the sense that you get less for your money.
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yeah, new AND cheap AND mechanical AND compact wont be easy
the cherry brown SPOS keyboard from about a week ago would have been perfect for you... but they are no longer available at that price.
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EDIT: Wrong thread.
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how do you guys feel about the logitech access 600 KB? bad?
cause when you guys say bad, other people might find no problems with it, they are not as picky with keyboards. so that being said, is the apple keyboard bad compared to your expensive keyboards or crappy as in it is a really crappy keyboard. cause i think it is an amazing keyboard and many many people will say the same. also apple wouldn't ship out the same keyboard with thousands of imacs if it wasn't any good. i am starting to take the opinions on this site with a grain of salt. i don't have RSI or some other disease so i don't need to type on a $200 keyboard without pain, but that doesn't make 99% of the other keyboards out there any less good.
that being said, given the bias of this site, the HHKB lite 2 is possibly a very good keyboard (unlike what was said above), the price is high but i like it. although i am not sold on it, i would like like to keep looking for a tenkeyless keyboard, if only logitech or microsoft made on (logitech/MS has never made a bad keyboard) i would buy one right away. a bonus if it is wireless.
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also apple wouldn't ship out the same keyboard with thousands of imacs if it wasn't any good.
This is a joke, right?
cause when you guys say bad, other people might find no problems with it
Because these 'other people' haven't tried the stuff we have. The same thing can apply to any field of endeavor or interest. I for example don't really care about cars. But I can at least appreciate that some cheapass Nissan is nowhere near as good a car compared with a top of the line Merc, even if they fulfill the same basic function.
i am starting to take the opinions on this site with a grain of salt. i don't have RSI or some other disease so i don't need to type on a $200 keyboard without pain, but that doesn't make 99% of the other keyboards out there any less good.
Have you actually tried any of the keyboards mentioned here? Do you have any means of quantifying that? I think the majority of people here have never suffered any RSI issues in their entire lives, yet here we are.
I don't think addressing any of your points on face value would serve any purpose, as you have basically said out straight that we're all suffering from some massive collective delusion. If you're not interested in trying out new things that an awful lot of people end up loving, that's your loss mate. This is not the right place for you.
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Whichever keyboard you get, the best quality boards are mechanical. That is the only advice I can give.
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there is a lot of good things being said about this keyboard, any opinions from the keyboard experts?
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/09/microsofts-bluetooth-mobile-keyboard-6000-barely-thicker-than/
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rubber dome, etc
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If you're looking for keyboard opinions, you're in the right place. If you're looking for consensus, you need to find it elsewhere.
I still can't spend $200 on a keyboard, but I can respect those who can. I've spent twice that on a fountain pen, a graphics card, an automobile, and a laptop, and don't expect anyone here to agree all were sane purchases. Everyone draws the line differently, and that's why people are interesting.
That being said, this forum isn't a place for people unwilling or unable to defend their opinions. I'd wager webwit, one of the most lucid and opinionated people here, has the same derision for someone who can't defend one's own retail µTron purchase the same way I'd deride a man who can't defend his own retail Waterford (as in Crystal, not Waterman) fountain pen purchase. We hold strong opinions, but don't have a lot of patience for weak thinkers, even if they think our way.
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Get a Cherry Brown keyboard and a buckling spring keyboard, and you'll have context for 80% of all discussions here. Don't expect to buy your perfect keyboard as your first purchase here.
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I have never spent $200 dollars on anything in my entire life.
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i had a quick look, i have never tried these mechanical keyboards before so i don't know what to expect.
im pretty much just looking for
small
i took a look at the apple keyboards and while they are a good size i need the home/end/page up/down keys, so i would prefer they be squished together on the right side (like on some laptop layouts) or just leave it be (keyboard would look like a full sized keyboard with the numpad cut off)
any suggestions?
One of my first mechanical keyboard was a ABS M1 that I got from newegg.ca. It's not a ten key less but it's fairly compact, cost about 50$, it's a solid build, the keys have a tactile feel but no click, so it's not too noisy. It's an all around decent board that doesn't break a wallet.
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I have never spent $200 dollars on anything in my entire life.
well try to imagine, for the rest of us, $200 is a fraction of some expensive purchases... so it isnt as big as it seems to everyone
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I have never spent $200 dollars on anything in my entire life.
Ahh, I remember those days....
I had a paper route, could buy my own video games(the old used ones of course) with the money....that was the life.
But now I'm here...and even though I haven't yet spent $200 on a keyboard, I have spent much more than that combined for the keyboards that I have bought.
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I paid $300 to repair a Sears clothes washer last week.
man, that's like throwing a topre into the washer :(
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there is a lot of good things being said about this keyboard, any opinions from the keyboard experts?
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/09/microsofts-bluetooth-mobile-keyboard-6000-barely-thicker-than/
As with the MS Wireless Comfort Desktop 5000 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6703) The Esc and Function keys are very thin.
The 6000 even has the Function keys touching the number keys - no gap. This keyboard is destined to cause grief for its users.
It has no right Windows key, and no Context Menu key.
It adds a Fn key that is only used to access 3 functions - Ins, Home & End.
MS could have given them 3 keys of their own but they consider volume controls to be more important. (The volume controls could have been the Fn-shifted functions.)
We're a funny bunch here at geekhack - unlike MS, we tend to think the primary purpose of a keyboard is for typing on.
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It's obviously intended to be used as a HTPC keyboard and such, not so much for the primary PC.
Incidentally, with their desktop KB/mouse combos, the keyboards seem to be at least as good as what the competition offers (for a sufficiently loose definition of "good"), but the mouses / mice appear to be of somewhat doubtful construction quality. Unsurprisingly, Logitech seems to ship the better pointing rodents. Those even seem to come with Eneloops installed lately.
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I don't really notice any different quality in MS mice vs. Logitech. IMO, they seem to target different markets. MS for the business crowd and Logitcech for the gamers (in general, of course). The design, marketing and functionality (weighting, tactile scroll wheel, etc.) of Logitech feel more geared to gamers. MS, on the other hand, with their no-nonsense marketing and their functionality (multiview, smooth scroll wheel, etc.) is perfect for business/office apps. I use a Logitech at home and an MS at work for this reason.