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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jedidove on Sun, 06 December 2009, 20:14:51

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Sun, 06 December 2009, 20:14:51

Right now I use a standard issue microsoft rubber dome membrane keyboard with media keys. For awhile I've wanted to get a better keyboard. At first I had considered the Das, but after reading about the transposition issues, and exploring a little more, I think I have decided that if that were the keyboard I wanted, a Filco would be a better choice. After realizing how little desk space I really have, I decided a tenkeyless design would probably be best. I also plan on getting a laptop soon, so a more compact design would be easier to lug around. However, I'm still pretty thrown as to what would be the best choice.

First let me discuss why I've come to consider the Filco and HHKB (Pro 2). Like I said, I started by wanting a Das. I heard that typing on the blue cherry's was addicting in a way comparable to popping bubble paper. Also, I was attracted to the blank design. I can type without looking at the keys, but I have a horrible habit for looking down. I have been getting better, but I want to kill it all together. Also, the blank keys just look kick ass, and I'd love to hear people who see it whine to me "How can you use that?" "That's so stupid" "Wah wah wah" just so I could laugh in their face, and rest assured knowing (probably) no one would be using it behind my back. As a gamer, the prospect of NKRO appealed to me.

Eventually, I ran into the transposition bug, and I found out that it really didn't have NKRO. This in combination with some of the opinions I found here (and the portability/desk space factor) led me to realize that if I wanted blue cherry's, a Filco Tenkeyless design would offer me everything the Das did, and then some. Feel free to argue this if you don't agree though.

Moving on, I also came to fancy the HHKB. Firstly, because the portability factor is even better. Also, due to this, I like the fact that every key is reachable, it just makes sense. I also heard many great things about the Topre switches. In a year or two I will start pursuing a degree in Computer Engineering, and eventually I'll be shooting for a PhD in the field. So, you can bet I'll be doing a lot of typing, and a lot of programming specifically. I keep hearing that the HHKB offers so much for programmers, etc. Right now, I'm working towards degrees in Math and Physics, and I've started to use Emacs for my LaTeX needs, so I'll only be getting more attached to it in the future. I've heard that the HHKB is great for Emacs too.

Ultimately though, I'm not sure how each of these keyboards will compare in the many applications that they would have to perform. Also, feel free to make any suggestions as to other keyboards that I should consider.

I know that the HHKB can't be beat in terms of portability. So I rather not hear an argument based on that. I also don't want to hear about the price factor. In the end, most my time will be spent sitting down using the keyboard, not paying for it or carrying it around. I don't want to sacrifice performance in this aspect for any reason.

Things to consider:

I will be typing a lot!: I'm a college student. Right now I have papers to write for gen-ed courses, as well as occasional science related and LaTeX typing needs. Just about the time I finish gen-ed related work, I will be going to an engineering school and probably programming my ass off. That will continue through a PhD program. How do the different switches compare for typing experience? Also, how big is the performance gain in coding with the HHKB layout?

I play games, particularly FPS. The most important thing here is how do blue cherry's (brown cherry's) and Topre's compare in the gaming department? Also, there is the issue of NKRO. In FPS, there are only a handful of keys that are ever pressed simultaneously or near simultaneously, so at first it might seem as if its not necessary. Though it would be exceptionally rare to press 6+ keys at the same time, it is completely common to press "AWE" at the same time (and other near WASD combos). I know some non-NKRO boards have issues with inputting 3 keys when those keys are certain combos. I'd like to hear about how the HHKB performs here. Do they make a PS2 capable HHKB (i.e. an NKRO one)?

Also, what's up with the dark gray HHKB on elitekeyboards? Where's black?

Thanks in advance. I have never owned a mechanical keyboard and there's no where around here to test them out so I'm really relying on online research/opinions.


TLDR: I game, I type, I program. For our purposes lets assume I do all three equally, and all three a lot. Rant about blue cherry's (or brown if you want to argue that) and Topre's. Rant about Filco Tenkeyless and HHKB Pro 2. Compare, contrast, talk a little about NKRO, a little about the HHKB layout, but focus on the switches and the applications.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 06 December 2009, 20:30:59

Simple get them both, one for work and one for play, problem solved.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Sun, 06 December 2009, 20:35:31

Quote from: rdjack21;139583

Simple get them both, one for work and one for play, problem solved.

lol, I'm interested in single keyboard answers. I should have specified ;)

EDIT: I could have included the Realforce Tenkeyless for consideration, but I feel like If Topre is the way to go, then I would be better off with an HHKB since I actually see the layout as a plus. As always, feel free to argue otherwise.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: o2dazone on Sun, 06 December 2009, 20:56:54

Quote

Also, how big is the performance gain in coding with the HHKB layout?

Drastically. Weaning yourself off the numpad and into the top row will increase your typing, and the fact of never having to leave the homerow is even better (well...almost never). This really came into perspective when I realized Vi had shortcuts on the home row to navigate through documents, even as simple as up and down arrow hotkeys. Page Up/Page Down are also much closer, which further increase how quickly you get to the top and bottom of documents or pages.

On the flipside, I won't lie. I type faster with a short travel keyswitch. I type faster on the built in Macbook Pro keyboard than I do on the HHKB. I do make less typing errors on my HHKB, so I believe that evens it out. Most of the development I do is in Javascript, HTML and CSS in Textmate and Vi at times. YMMV depending on the application or language/markup you develop in.

Don't make a judgment on how long it'll take you to adjust to the layout. Most things are all the same. You'll learn just about everything different in two weeks, and arrow keys felt natural in about a month.

Gaming-wise I really liked brown cherries. While I've adapted to playing games on the HHKB, it's definitive collapse is almost distracting. This is with RPG's, RTS's and FPS's. I eventually got used to playing games with the Happy Hacking, but if I played enough to be competitive, I'd probably keep a brown or black cherry board around just for that.

This is coming from a 7 months, two HHKB owner. I use one over 10 hours a day, just about every day.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: 1839cc on Sun, 06 December 2009, 21:34:42

Consider longevity too.

I've heard rumors that Topres can wear out kinda fast with heavy use. Hopefully they're wrong though.....

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 06 December 2009, 22:14:57

Quote

After realizing how little desk space I really have

The importance of this is not to be underestimated. I despise using a full-size keyboard now. Even a tenkeyless board seems oversized after having a HHKB on the desk. As far as I'm concerned, the HHKB physical design is THE correct form factor for a (non-ergo specific) keyboard. Why have something bigger? There is no reason. The HHKB isn't perfect - I don't like the choice of arrow key positions personally, although they can be adapted to. But if you want the smallest, yet still easy to use, keyboard, the HHKB is the only game in town. There are equally small keyboards, but they cram lots of extra physical keys into the space, in often bizarre places, so they are a nightmare to touch type on.

Quote

I was attracted to the blank design. ...
Also, what's up with the dark gray HHKB on elitekeyboards? Where's black?

Yes, blank keys are a great way to break the bad habit of glancing at the keyboard. But they aren't great for gaming. Remember one hand will be on the mouse, and sometimes you will have to hit keys not under your left hand. Black on dark grey keycaps sound like a good compromise, but mine (Realforce 87U) may as well be black on black with my desktop lighting.

Quote

Also, there is the issue of NKRO.

The advantage of NKRO is not that you can hold down twenty or more keys at once. It is that you can hold down ANY three keys. Or ANY four keys. ANY five keys. And so on. USB limits you to any six keys *plus modifiers* (Control, Shift, Alt). That is not a real liability. But you still want the keyboard to have NKRO internally. Any keyboard without NKRO will fail with some combinations of three keys. Now that IS a liability.

Quote

focus on the switches and the applications.

Topre switches work great and feel great. May not be the fastest, but it's the old "choose any two of three" situation. Cherry brown switches also feel great once you are used to them, but I think Topres have the edge overall. I doubt there's any difference in speed. For speed, scissor switches are probably hard to beat, but their short travel could ultimately cause discomfort or RSI with heavy use.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Sun, 06 December 2009, 23:41:13

Just a note on the NKRO: I don't ever expect to need more than 6 key rollover. In fact I don't expect to need more than 5 key rollover, because my left hand only has five fingers! Moreover, usually some of those keys will be modifiers (ctrl for crouch, etc.) But, I do want all combinations less than that to work. Does the HHKB truly hit the usb limit? Or will it fail on some three letter combos? If it does truly hit the limit, then what would happen if you used a PS/2 adapter? Should the capacitive setup allow more than 6KRO?

As for the blank keys, gaming is the least of my concerns there. I don't think I ever look down when I game. I almost exclusively use voice chat, and I can hit every button I need to without looking. Actually, I would hope I never had to look down while gaming, if anything that's the one application where it matters most to always keep your eyes on the screen.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 00:04:25

In the second week of my G80, I put about 25,000 words on the thing. Finals week, baby! It's pretty comfortable, but I'm jonesin for an ergo cherry board.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 December 2009, 00:50:31

Quote from: jedidove;139633

Does the HHKB truly hit the usb limit? Or will it fail on some three letter combos? If it does truly hit the limit, then what would happen if you used a PS/2 adapter?

I think it's working to the USB limit.

I only say 'think' because I just noticed something odd while using Aqua's Keytest. If I plug in the keyboard and press/hold keys in this order:
Ctrl Alt Shift Z A Q S W E everything works normally.
But if I repeat the test, as soon as I hit the S, W and E appear by themselves. i.e. W & E are not pressed, but the PC thinks they are:


Unplugging/replugging the keyboard fixes it.
Restarting Aqua's Keytest doesn't fix it.
I get the same thing using a HHKB Pro, a Realforce 87U, or a DASIII.
I get the same thing on my XP or my Vista machine.
I get the same thing going through my USB switch or plugged directly into the PC.

My conclusion is that the HHKB is good, but there is a flaw in the USB HID spec, or Windows' version of it.

EDIT> I get the same problem using this test (http://random.xem.us/rollover.html), as well as Aqua's one.

I know this isn't major, but it seems the oft-quoted "six keys plus modifiers" capability for USB cannot be relied on.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 07 December 2009, 01:12:40

Quote from: Rajagra;139649

If I plug in the keyboard and press/hold keys in this order:
Ctrl Alt Shift Z A Q S W E everything works normally.
But if I repeat the test, as soon as I hit the S, W and E appear by themselves. i.e. W & E are not pressed, but the PC thinks they are:

i wonder if that's an anomaly in the keyboard's blocking algorithm.

on boards that don't have a diode for each key, software in the keyboard controller has to prevent certain nearby two-key combinations from spuriously registering as a third key.

this effect sounds a lot like the normal blocking process... but in reverse.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 December 2009, 01:30:44

Quote from: msiegel;139653

i wonder if that's an anomaly in the keyboard's blocking algorithm.

I repeated the test on three keyboards, one of which uses diodes (DAS) the other two are capacitive (HHKB/Realforce) which reportedly are immune to key ghosting. All showed identical results, strongly suggesting the problem lies elsewhere.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 07 December 2009, 04:59:05

i dont see why people say the HHKB is bad for gaming
F keys can be handy though, i guess, despite what i used to say about them
im about to break the filco back out, i started eve online and F keys are used for weapons... then again might just remap all the crazy hotkeys anyway.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 09:59:47

Quote from: Rajagra;139649

I only say 'think' because I just noticed something odd while using Aqua's Keytest. If I plug in the keyboard and press/hold keys in this order:
Ctrl Alt Shift Z A Q S W E everything works normally.
But if I repeat the test, as soon as I hit the S, W and E appear by themselves. i.e. W & E are not pressed, but the PC thinks they are:

EDIT> I get the same problem using this test (http://random.xem.us/rollover.html), as well as Aqua's one.

I know this isn't major, but it seems the oft-quoted "six keys plus modifiers" capability for USB cannot be relied on.

i haven't tried the aqua test, but the problem with the web-based rollover test is that the moment you hit a key combination like alt-f (which opens the file menu in the browser), it causes all sorts of problems with subsequent key recognition until you reload the page.

this isn't unique to usb as the problem is present even with ps/2 keyboards.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 10:16:13

i redid the test with a usb keyboard and was able to reproduce raj's problem.  and in fact, if i redid the sequence with a different key pressed instead of the 's', the 'we' would still come out automatically after that key.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: timw4mail on Mon, 07 December 2009, 10:18:01

Doesn't seem like an idea thing, but for most uses, I doubt you would ever see this actually happen using the keyboard.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Mon, 07 December 2009, 10:40:33

Quote from: ripster;139703

That test is weird. No W & E ghosting on a Filco though when I replicate the test.

Try doing it without the ALT - nobody uses ALT in FPS gaming.  A SHFT/CTRL combo though is common.

Speak for yourself. I actually use ALT all the time lol. I have it bound to my second weapon slot. I play a lot of spy in tf2 so I have knife on mouse scroll up, revolver on scroll down, and sapper on ALT. In tf2 ALT is a very convenient button for weapon switch. In additon to the scroll binds, it allows you to switch without moving off WASD/Crtl. Though I'll probably replace it with scroll left or right when I get my G9x. That said, I suspect the ALT issue is more an issue with the programs testing it. Just playing devil's advocate here since I had the chance ;)

Does anyone else have experience gaming with Browns, Blues, or Topre's (preferably 2, or even better, all 3)?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 11:36:43

Quote from: jedidove;139746

Does anyone else have experience gaming with Browns, Blues, or Topre's (preferably 2, or even better, all 3)?

yes, i prefer blues over topres over browns.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:09:31

Quote from: alpslover;139765

yes, i prefer blues over topres over browns.

Okay so that makes it 1 vote for browns on gaming, 1 vote for blues on gaming, and 1 vote for topres on typing. I'm tempted to make a poll here, but that wouldn't reflect how much experience those opinions are based in.

Keep the opinions coming. I'm less worried about the NKRO unless there is some 2-3 key combo near WASD that fails. If the 6key works than I'll be happy. I've used default domes up until now without any issue, so I doubt it will be a big deal. Feel free to keep talking about the NKRO issue if you really think there is a big difference in FPS, but for the most part I'm interested in key comparison right now. Other gimmicks make a difference, but when it comes down to it, I think the choice of switch is going to be the first thing I should be concerned with.

EDIT: Actually, I think the count is 2 for typing with topres.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:23:41

but i have only used brown and topre

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: digi on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:28:28

I've tried the blacks, they are way too stiff for me.

Get the Filco 87 keyboard with brown cherries and a comfortable wrist bad, you can thank me later. =]

Title: memory loss
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:36:08

Quote from: ripster;139794

Cherry Reds are the best.

Remind us; home made reds are brown switches with black springs?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:37:37

Quote from: jedidove;139783

Okay so that makes it 1 vote for browns on gaming, 1 vote for blues on gaming, and 1 vote for topres on typing. I'm tempted to make a poll here, but that wouldn't reflect how much experience those opinions are based in.

i think the best advice (though perhaps not the most economical) is to give the different keyswitches a try and see what works best for you.

i personally prefer click tactile switches for everything.  all of the keyboards i use for typing have click tactile switches, and i have not found game playing to be superior with non-clicky switch keyboards, so there's no reason for me to have a separate keyboard for gaming.  for me, the brown cherries lose to the topres because the topres are more tactile and are smoother.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: timw4mail on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:42:36

Quote from: ricercar;139800

Remind us; home made reds are brown switches with black springs?

Black switches with brown springs.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:42:42

Quote from: ricercar;139800

Remind us; home made reds are brown switches with black springs?

Other way.  Black switches with brown springs.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:48:04

Quote from: jedidove;139783

Keep the opinions coming. I'm less worried about the NKRO unless there is some 2-3 key combo near WASD that fails. If the 6key works than I'll be happy. I've used default domes up until now without any issue, so I doubt it will be a big deal.

the problem with a non-nkro (or non-6kro usb) keyboard is that they don't all use the same matrices, and who knows what key combinations you may need to use in the future.  so while you may not have had any problems with the key combos on the rubber domes you use now, it would suck to shell out good money for a 'premium' non-nkro keyboard that won't recognize your key combos due to the use of a different matrix or because you're using different key combinations which you didn't before.  the nkro (or 6kro for usb) is a guarantee that no key combinations will ever block.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: timw4mail on Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:52:13

Quote from: alpslover;139809

the problem with a non-nkro (or non-6kro usb) keyboard is that they don't all use the same matrices, and who knows what key combinations you may need to use in the future.  so while you may not have had any problems with the key combos on the rubber domes you use now, it would suck to shell out good money for a 'premium' non-nkro keyboard that won't recognize your key combos due to the use of a different matrix or because you're using different key combinations which you didn't before.  the nkro (or 6kro for usb) is a guarantee that no key combinations will ever block.

While this is true, generally there isn't a very large possibility of this happening, even with non-nkro keyboards.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 13:21:47

Quote from: jedidove;139783

Okay so that makes it 1 vote for browns on gaming, 1 vote for blues on gaming, and 1 vote for topres on typing. I'm tempted to make a poll here, but that wouldn't reflect how much experience those opinions are based in.

My blue Cherry keyboard is my nominal 'gaming' keyboard, but at this it is not entirely ideal. There's a particular problem with the blue switches - when you release a key, it doesn't really 'unclick' like other switches, so you have no real sense of when you've released it. This feels a bit weird for things where you need to press a key several times (as opposed to holding down) in rapid succession.

I've never tried the Browns or Topres, but from what I hear, this problem is not applicable to them as they have less going on during the keypress. One thing I note is that Topres are pretty much consistently ranked higher than Browns by those who have experience with both. If you do your programming/LaTeX'ing in a command line editor like Vim or Emacs, I think the HHKB is an even clearer choice (i've even modded the layout on my laptop keyboard to have some HHKB like features)

Can someone confirm this for me - I was under the impression HHKB has NKRO in so far as USB allows due to it's capacitive nature... Does this mean that it can take any 6 key presses or is there any ghosting?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: 1839cc on Mon, 07 December 2009, 13:30:47

Browns are very nice, so if Topres are even better (I have not tried them) get the HHKB Pro 2.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 14:17:07

Quote from: ch_123;139814

My blue Cherry keyboard is my nominal 'gaming' keyboard, but at this it is not entirely ideal. There's a particular problem with the blue switches - when you release a key, it doesn't really 'unclick' like other switches, so you have no real sense of when you've released it. This feels a bit weird for things where you need to press a key several times (as opposed to holding down) in rapid succession.

blue cherries don't really 'click' on the upstroke the way they click on the downstroke, however there is a subtle upstroke bump very similar to the browns.

at any rate, this only really matters if the way you hit keys as quickly as possible is by 'finessing' them around the actuation point.  if you bottom and top out the keys instead (i do), it doesn't matter.

Quote

I've never tried the Browns or Topres, but from what I hear, this problem is not applicable to them as they have less going on during the keypress.

again, it really depends on how exactly you're hitting the keys.  if you do full strokes, they're no better or worse than the blues.

in my own testing, my 'fast repeated key hitting' speed is pretty much the same across many different switch types.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 14:28:05

I know the OP doesn't want to hear this, but for the benefit of anyone else reading: You really don't know until you try; get one of everything where possible.

Now, for the OP, if in doubt, get a Topre board. My vote goes for the HHKB Pro 2. Since getting one, I find myself trying to use the HHKB layout no matter what keyboard I'm on.. leading to some interesting results. I'm not at the stage where I need to buy another one for work/travel, but I don't think it'll be too long before I do so. HHKBs really do increase productivity, and the greatest advantage is to be found, strangely, in its ergonomics. With it you can have your pointing device so much closer to the board. Now you can centre your input devices to your display(s) and benefit from a more relaxed posture. For anyone who sits at a computer for most of the day, this is a real boon.

Downside? The cursor keys, pgup/pgdn and home/end keys take a fair bit of getting used to, and when typing passwords I have the habit of pecking, and when I switch from touch typing to pecking I get it all wrong!

How to make the perfect HHKB Pro 3? Map the cursor keys to Fn + WASD. That's a no brainer right there imho! Map pgup/pgdn to current up/down cursor keys and make home the left key and end the right key (with Fn, obviously). Now, another cool thing would be USB 2.0 and an internal port for a flash drive (microSD with a teensy adaptor would be a good choice). That way you could carry your board and your documents/data all in one device. Win.

Just my 2c, but basically the HHKB Pro 2 is the best keyboard I have ever tried and it was worth every penny. Oh - I didn't /quite/ fully explain the WHY, but once you get one, it becomes obvious ;)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 December 2009, 14:42:26

Quote from: hacfed;139836

How to make the perfect HHKB Pro 3? Map the cursor keys to Fn + WASD. That's a no brainer right there imho!

Agreed. This came to me in a dream:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5215&d=1255823941)

But the current version would be fine if it was your first good keyboard, you stuck to it, and it became a natural layout for you. I almost wish it was the only board I had, so I could be that way. For that reason alone I think anyone who is considering one should buy it as their first choice before they get spoilt with options. It is easier to change from a HHKB to standard boards than the other way round.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 07 December 2009, 14:53:59

if you are trying to get away with convention in favor of superiority, ESDF (or IJKL) would be even better.

other parts of that fake layout are a bit much though.  no need for right control, and the left <> should just be a function key anyway.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:05:41

We need to start a proper petition for the HHKB 3 to be fully programmable.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:26:01

Hmm. I retract my previous statement. The part about WASD, anyway. Here's why: ESDF /is/ better, and if the left shift was split into two keys: shift on the outside and Fn on the inside, we have the most comfortable arrangement.

If you have an HHKB, place your fingers over ESDF and imagine the right-hand side of the left shift is an Fn key.

Like a glove!

Forget the right-hand control key - agreed; a waste.

Ditch the right-hand Fn! Full-size right hand shift is where it's at. I've gotten used to the current arrangement with ease, but for ten years I've been using right shift exclusively and pressing it with my pinky where the Fn button is..

Anyway, no mass produced keyboard will ever be perfect I guess.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:40:44

Quote from: hacfed;139863

left shift was split into two keys: shift on the outside and Fn on the inside

no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:43:48

Yeah way! Srs.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:45:48

Quote from: hacfed;139863

Hmm. I retract my previous statement. The part about WASD, anyway. Here's why: ESDF /is/ better, and if the left shift was split into two keys: shift on the outside and Fn on the inside, we have the most comfortable arrangement.

That works. I did use AutoHotkey to make a similar setup using ESDF, but found that if I used CapsLock as a Fn key it wasn't comfortable. WASD though, was perfect.

ISO boards have an extra key in just the spot you mention. Shame the U.S./ANSI boards don't.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:52:36

@GGLucas: I don't know how you do it. I had 2 monitors before and craved 3. Now I have 3 I think I have reached the optimal amount. Alt+Tab and <>+Tab work wonders for me. Instead of dedicating screens like 1 code, 2 research, 3 non-productive I dedicate desktops that way. Shortcuts like <>+1, <>+2 allow me to jump directly to desktops, too, so I find that to be a great way to navigate. I'm the sort of person who hates tiling though and always has one window per screen, maximised. You have a very nice setup and configuration, but as others have more eloquently stated, "it just looks too busy to be efficient". Don't get me wrong, I'm chuffed that it works for you.. I just don't think I could handle it. On a technical note, what kind of graphics card/s do you have to run that? Which buses?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:53:12

That wouldn't work well for me.  I use the left Shift for caps exclusively, and I press the right edge of that key.  Because of my hand size, let alone muscle memory, it would be uncomfortable to reach to the left side of the key for a Shift function.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 07 December 2009, 16:01:37

Loser

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 16:19:43

I have always used right shift for caps, exclusively, because I'm in the UK and the ISO layout as we all know has large right shift, smaller left shift and pipe/backslash inbetween Z and left shift. It seemed to make sense to me. I think this should explain my preference for effectively swapping the HHKB2's right shift and Fn arrangement with the left shift. Initially I thought the moving of the pipe to the top right of the board would be most annoying but instead the return and backspace keys are the two I muddle up most often. Again, my downfall is pecking when I should be touch typing. Now that I think of it, the HHKB3 should have a trackpoint to eliminate all the ****footing around with a separate pointing device :)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 16:22:52

And... and... I never use right alt or right <>. What if they merged into a single key: backspace. Then backspace could be merged with return and then I'd have a big oul proper ISO-style return key I could mash! Yay!

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 16:31:47

Stick with the US enter. It takes a while to get used to it, but it's a much more elegant solution once you get used to it (it's on the home row so you dont have to reach over to hit it like an ISO enter)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hacfed on Mon, 07 December 2009, 16:56:05

Of course it's better in that regard. My trouble is that my muscle memory expects to find more enter key where the backspace is (on HHKB2). For all the nips and tucks I'm suggesting.. the HHKB2 is pretty strong. I just can't help but think of ways to improve it. Honestly, I don't think I've ever pressed the right alt or meta yet. I'd have a larger enter and a backspace in place of those two keys any day. :)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Korbin on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:31:01

Quote from: 1839cc;139608

Consider longevity too.

I've heard rumors that Topres can wear out kinda fast with heavy use. Hopefully they're wrong though.....

Do you actually know someone that has worn one out (not rumors)?  I ask because there was a thread a long time ago about this very topic with topre switches and no geekhacker ever heard of it happening. I would be interested to know what "heavy" use is and how long it took.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5832 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5832)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: 1839cc on Mon, 07 December 2009, 18:15:29

Quote from: Korbin;139937

Do you actually know someone that has worn one out (not rumors)?

I do not.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Mon, 07 December 2009, 18:38:58

Quote from: ripster;139827

I'm not sure Topre switches feel that much better.  At least not twice the cost better.  Browns should be better for gaming because they are springier.

Really though - it's down to where the OP is more concerned about an optimal programming experience and an education that will last him a lifetime...or better gaming rankings.

Wait - don't answer that!

lol! Though arguably, its the coder in the end that makes the difference. Nevertheless, the obvious benefits of the HHKB are clear. However, I have heard (on these very forums!) that the topre's are horrible for gaming. Now if it's a choice between a keyboard that is good for both and one that is great for one but terrible for the other, I can't say I'm going to spring for the latter right away. Down the road as my education furthers, aka I start coding like hell and gaming very little (read PhD)? Sure. But right away, it would make more sense to get the browns since I'm not spending a crap load of time coding in Physics or Math (which I will be continuing for the next 2 years) yet I do game quite a bit.

On the other hand, if the topre's compare favorably for gaming, then I think the choice is obvious after considering the added mobility (and of course the extra brownie points in layout benefits). I live at my gf's, commute to school, and visit "home" every other day. Soon I'll have a laptop that I'll probably be doing all my work and gaming on and lugging around all these places on a daily basis. So, having a small keyboard would be "nice", but not at the risk of being terrible for my first/close second use for it for the next 2 years.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: alpslover on Mon, 07 December 2009, 19:24:35

Quote from: jedidove;139964

However, I have heard (on these very forums!) that the topre's are horrible for gaming.

different people have different (and sometimes very strong) preferences for certain switches.  just because some people dislike a certain switch doesn't mean you will.

try them and decide for yourself.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 07 December 2009, 19:24:58

There are many people who prefer the full layout for gaming.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 21:58:48

Quote from: jedidove;139964

lol! Though arguably, its the coder in the end that makes the difference. Nevertheless, the obvious benefits of the HHKB are clear. However, I have heard (on these very forums!) that the topre's are horrible for gaming. Now if it's a choice between a keyboard that is good for both and one that is great for one but terrible for the other, I can't say I'm going to spring for the latter right away. Down the road as my education furthers, aka I start coding like hell and gaming very little (read PhD)? Sure. But right away, it would make more sense to get the browns since I'm not spending a crap load of time coding in Physics or Math (which I will be continuing for the next 2 years) yet I do game quite a bit.

On the other hand, if the topre's compare favorably for gaming, then I think the choice is obvious after considering the added mobility (and of course the extra brownie points in layout benefits). I live at my gf's, commute to school, and visit "home" every other day. Soon I'll have a laptop that I'll probably be doing all my work and gaming on and lugging around all these places on a daily basis. So, having a small keyboard would be "nice", but not at the risk of being terrible for my first/close second use for it for the next 2 years.

Just to add my little 2 cents worth and I will do it with a picture :)

Namco CSNEO (Counter Strike NEO) Realforce 87U OEM board:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6212&stc=1&d=1260244421)
and in action:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6213&stc=1&d=1260244421)
and the board itself:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6214&stc=1&d=1260244421)

So yes some find the Topre switches good for gaming. Actually from what I've read the 30g boards are what the Japanese use for gaming verses the 45g in the HHKB Pro but that should not matter that much. You will also note that this particular board has PS/2 connection instead of USB so has full N key roll over verses the 6 key limit on USB.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 22:13:11

Quote from: hacfed;139922

Of course it's better in that regard. My trouble is that my muscle memory expects to find more enter key where the backspace is (on HHKB2). For all the nips and tucks I'm suggesting.. the HHKB2 is pretty strong. I just can't help but think of ways to improve it. Honestly, I don't think I've ever pressed the right alt or meta yet. I'd have a larger enter and a backspace in place of those two keys any day. :)

Have you thought about getting this instead?
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6215&stc=1&d=1260244880)
If you are wondering this is the Japanese version of the HHKB Pro. Before you ask that small space bar is not really a problem. I keep thinking that the Japanese version may be the next HHKB Pro I get instead of the US version. I've been getting used to the layout on my MD01B0 and the more I use it the more I find it less of an issue for me. And really the only key on it that some what gives me issues is the right shift. Also if you don't tell your OS that it is a Japanese board it will map the keys correctly for the symbols but if need to know they map like this on mine:
`@ => [{
[{ => ]}
;+ => ;:
*: => ' "
]} => \|
- \ => dead key you will have to map this one. I have it mapped to shift on mine.
| ¥ => Dead key you will have to map this one. I have it mapped to back space on mine but now that I've gotten used to small back space key I'm going to change that.
All other keys map as you would expect.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 December 2009, 22:21:00

I'd be happy to use the Japanese version.
Just one question. What does the 'Happy Hacking' key do?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 22:53:03

I don't know because I don't have one yet that is :) At some point I'm going to get one though.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Tue, 08 December 2009, 08:53:57

@rdjack

Now THAT was the sort of thing that I was hoping to see. If my experience with joystick hardware (read Sanwa) is any clue, the Japanese seem to take their **** seriously when it comes to (arcade) gaming hardware. Now, thats not to say that they don't use topre because of other biases and being used to it, but it certainly means that its not a generally accepted "terrible" choice for gaming. Does that mean I will enjoy it as much? Who knows? But its comforting to see it as a japanese standard, for CS nonetheless, and correct if I'm wrong but I think the Japanese take CS pretty seriously.

As for the japanese keyboard layout. While my first reaction is obviously the spacebar....I still wonder if the benefits are worth the detriments. I don't need a huge enter key, but I would like a nice easy to reach/use backspace key. Same for shift, though I've grown to use mostly left shift (I'm a semi-self taught, had a class in middle school, mostly learned as I went along sort of typer) even for left hand keys since I'm use to that sort of positioning for gaming. Though, its a habit I should plan to break for typing.

What draws you to the Japanese layout? What are the benefits to you? And what do you find the drawbacks to be in practice? Also, what happens to those language keys? If I could get past the spacebar, it might be useful having that extra key (or keys if the HHKB one is mappable) near WASD. They might even be useful outside of games.

EDIT: And whats up with those mm gaps on the bottom row? They could have just widened the spacebar or the alt keys or something. Then it would really look kick ass, especially blanked, just a small dense pack of keys, filled to the edge, yet still minimalistic.


EDIT2: Come to think of it, by shrinking the right side of the spacebar, both language keys on the right are reasonably reachable from wasd. The kana might be a little stretch but the other one is definitely doable. That adds 2-3 possibly mappable keys that can be reached without getting off of WASD (and possibly without getting off crouch too depending on how you hit the left hhkb key).

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 08 December 2009, 12:35:33

Quote from: ripster;140155

Is it me or does this seem like what HHKB should have looked like in the first place?

Show Image

(http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/hhkbprojp/images/cursor.jpg)

For awhile, the "dream keyboard" around here was an HHKB Lite with Topre switches.  IMO, that would be a better layout.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 08 December 2009, 13:51:37

I have an HHKB lite, its in the closet now. I remember relying on the arrow keys when I first got it as the fn + key seemed tedious. Over time I learned to use the fn + key for arrow up/down. Once you get used to it I found it hard to go back to using the dedicated arrow keys. If only because it was awkward to move my hand from the home row.

I suppose if you  are a gamer it could be an issue, but  why would you game on a HHKB when there are other/better 'boards to be had?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 08 December 2009, 13:54:59

why is the HHKB bad for gaming!?
- same switches as the 'gaming' realforce
- close to mouse or more mouse room
- tiny so you can bring it to stupid lan parties

ok so it doesnt have keys in the corner, and F1-F12 can be an issue sometimes... RARELY... eve online is the first time ive wanted to use them, but its slow enough that it doesnt really matter.

i guess my main deal with the arrow keys is that im not always typing (with the home row), just using the mouse

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: carmen on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:04:59

i think it was designed by emacs users

ctrl-f/b/p/n is a lot faster htan piddling around recentering your fingers on the arrow keys only to move them back

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:08:38

Quote from: bigpook;140174

why would you game on a HHKB when there are other/better 'boards to be had?

Here we go again :rolleyes: Elaborate, but don't say black cherries, because some people like being able to type on their keyboard too ;)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: carmen on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:10:15

had to map caps to control w/ xmodmap on my thinkpad because the muscle memory kicked in right away - its such a better location

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:11:20

I think he might have meant that in terms of layout.

Quote

Is it me or does this seem like what HHKB should have looked like in the first place?

That's just you.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:28:14

Quote from: jedidove;140185

Here we go again :rolleyes: Elaborate, but don't say black cherries, because some people like being able to type on their keyboard too ;)

Not a whole lot to elaborate on. I don't game on the PC anymore (PS3), but when I did....hmm. Maybe it was all WASD anyways. I was thinking (probably not enough) that the arrow keys are important for gaming.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:31:18

Quote from: AndrewZorn;140177

why is the HHKB bad for gaming!?
- same switches as the 'gaming' realforce
- close to mouse or more mouse room
- tiny so you can bring it to stupid lan parties

ok so it doesnt have keys in the corner, and F1-F12 can be an issue sometimes... RARELY... eve online is the first time ive wanted to use them, but its slow enough that it doesnt really matter.

i guess my main deal with the arrow keys is that im not always typing (with the home row), just using the mouse

I didn't say the HHKB was bad for gaming. To be clear, I don't see the need to spend upwards of 250 US for a keyboard to game on. Unless of course, you want to.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:35:49

you dont need to spend over 10 for a combination gaming/typing keyboard either.  not that i bought my HHKB specifically for anything.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:40:29

Quote from: itlnstln;140157

For awhile, the "dream keyboard" around here was an HHKB Lite with Topre switches.  IMO, that would be a better layout.

I have one (a standard Lite2), and it doesn't feel as natural as you'd expect.
Having a well placed Fn key(s), used to access inverted-T arrow within the main layout would be far better.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Arc'xer on Tue, 08 December 2009, 15:17:56

Most of the people use sponsor keyboards or 5-15 dollar buys. Most are membrane or scissor like the Razer and Logitech or Microsoft etc.etc.. I've seen a few using the mx black on the steelseries 7G and this Chinese CS team using Jaki's but other than that most of them seem to not really care what they use nor would they bother even trying to find out. It's just like their hardware most don't even know much about computers and whatnot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/deeaboxing#p/u (http://www.youtube.com/user/deeaboxing#p/u)

Chinese CS team players using Jaki's if you listen to the videos you can hear mx black and maybe a blue as well. Could be wrong and they are all using one switch though.

(CSO, CS online it's Asian version of 1.6 with new things and micro payment.)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:26:20

Correct me if I'm wrong on those Nostromo's but aren't they just standard rubber dome crap (though it looks like a blue cherry under that thumb key)? I don't really see how they really help all that much. You lose access to the number keys, and end up needing to reach to your keyboard to type in chat and for the less often used random convenient binds elsewhere on it (console, loadout, etc.). Plus it just leaves you even less room on your desk for your mouse since it doesn't completely do away with the need for a keyboard.

I always thought it was interesting that "pro" gamers just bought into the overmarketted crap as opposed to doing any real research. You could get a Filco NKey with any cherry for the same price as those razer and logitech craps.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:31:51

There are people who just aren't interested in keyboard feel. Some people like the extra buttons on those keyboards. Personally, however, I'd rather have a Filco if I had to choose between those three types (and would prefer a Model M out of all types).

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:32:14

Quote from: jedidove;140227

Correct me if I'm wrong on those Nostromo's but aren't they just standard rubber dome crap (though it looks like a blue cherry under that thumb key)? I don't really see how they really help all that much. You lose access to the number keys, and end up needing to reach to your keyboard to type in chat and for the less often used random convenient binds elsewhere on it (console, loadout, etc.). Plus it just leaves you even less room on your desk for your mouse since it doesn't completely do away with the need for a keyboard.
 
I always thought it was interesting that "pro" gamers just bought into the overmarketted crap as opposed to doing any real research. You could get a Filco NKey with any cherry for the same price as those razer and logitech craps.

They are rubber dome off the shelf.  Ripster modded his to use Cherrys.  I loved my Nostomo.  I never needed the keyboard with it; I always had plenty of bindings.  You should check it out.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:35:25

Isn't typing the reason why keyboards were invented?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:39:36

Quote from: microsoft windows;140232

Isn't typing the reason why keyboards were invented?

Yeah, but for some reason, many people have forgotton that.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:45:48

The most ridiculous of the "gaming" keyboards is the one with the special LCD which displays stuff happening in the game. I think it's made by Logitech or something. Most games aren't even compatible with the LCD, which is virtually pointless when chances are there's a big one sitting right in front of it.

Here's a photo of one.
(http://icrontic.com/images/prime/articles/g15/g15_top.jpg)

My keyboard with an integrated LCD actually serves a purpose: it's a handy little calculator that requires no drivers.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:55:14

The nostromo is out of the question. I need my keyboard near me when I play so having an extra thing doesn't make sense with my already limited space. Not to mention I don't want to buy something just to mod it. The number keys are particularly important playing spy in tf2 and are often important to gaming in general. All you gain is a dpad...which honestly is completely unnecessary. It would be good for weapons but I'm not even sure I would prefer its action to that of a key (even rubber dome). It mimicks the idea of keyboard keys but doesn't really add much of anything.  There are just a lot of levels on which it just doesn't make sense for me.


That is all completely ignoring the fact that I'm not buying something for only gaming. I'm making an investment for typing and gaming, but as a keyboard, typing is particularly important. I want it to be a good investment towards gaming too, but I'm not focused completely on that, hence why black cherry's are completely out of the question.

I'm starting to lean towards the HHKB. The obvious coding/layout benefits aside, it seems to be unanimously seen as great for typing (no?) and if its any better than domes for gaming, thats an improvement. I'm more afraid of certain tactile/switch choices being particualry bad for gaming, possibly worse than domes.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 08 December 2009, 17:18:58

you want to know whats funny?  you are absolutely right about the g15, i bought one, technically still have it.  had never played a game taht supported the LCD until now, AFTER i bought all these fancy keyboards and ditched the G15.

the point still remains that it is unnecessary and all, just annoying that i dont get to use it until it is too late.

it was kind of handy for MP3 information and stuff i guess...

that is why i keep wishing that there was some sort of usb 'pod' that is just an LCD and media buttons.  not a 5.25" bay device, just something that i can use independently of a keyboard for that kind of thing.  would also quell the arguments over at XtremeSystems about the G15 being amazing and all.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 08 December 2009, 17:58:44

Quote from: AndrewZorn;140250

that is why i keep wishing that there was some sort of usb 'pod' that is just an LCD and media buttons.  not a 5.25" bay device, just something that i can use independently of a keyboard for that kind of thing.  would also quell the arguments over at XtremeSystems about the G15 being amazing and all.

My old G15 was damaged by coffee, and my repair was only partly successful. I plan to use its controller to build a pod like you describe. Except I will be able to plug keyboard modules into it, like a main alphanumeric block, a numpad, a programmable function pad, all arrangeable as I see fit.

Re the Nostromo. It does use rubber domes, but they are very snappy, at least on the N52te version, so are great for gaming. The layout is much more comfortable and ergonomic than using the main keyboard (the main purpose of getting it!) It has n-key rollover as far as I can tell, and I did try hard to prove otherwise. There are effectively 27 buttons, but if you dedicate a key to shift states you can have 3*26=78 keys which can each be mapped to act as any key you like, or macros. Once programmed the N52te does not require drivers or any other form of software to be loaded. And you can turn off the stupid blue backlighting with a switch on the base. Hallelujah!

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 08 December 2009, 21:21:06

I enjoyed having 30g of force on the brown cherries, over the 45g of force + the collapse of the topre when I'm gaming. I won't say it'll make or break your game, but it definitely made my fingers feel like they were doing more work on the Topre switches, probably because the actuation requires almost bottoming out while the browns don't necessarily need to bottom out to actuate. Or maybe it's the 15g difference.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 22:06:28

Quote from: ripster;140155

Is it me or does this seem like what HHKB should have looked like in the first place?

Show Image

(http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/hhkbprojp/images/cursor.jpg)

The problem with that cluster is the shift key. I have that layout on my MD01B0 and that darn shift is really the only thing that still gives me issues and is really the main reason I'm still looking for that perfect small keyboard layout. I have hopes for this one:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6237&stc=1&d=1260331195)

But you will note that on this one though it has other issues. For instance the very small space bar. But do you see where they have put the cursor key cluster? I'm seriously thinking about remapping the keys on my MD01B0 to be like that and making a larger shift key that will fit where the current Shift/Up arrow keys are at on it.

Now the HHKB Lite did it right they left the shift key alone and put a small cursor key cluster below it. But I think putting up high like that board above may work as well.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 04:59:31

Quote from: Rajagra;140260

My old G15 was damaged by coffee, and my repair was only partly successful. I plan to use its controller to build a pod like you describe. Except I will be able to plug keyboard modules into it, like a main alphanumeric block, a numpad, a programmable function pad, all arrangeable as I see fit.

i forgot to mention it would be a USB hub (also)

i really do not understand why i havent seen them, seems like the perfect thing to please everyone

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Wed, 09 December 2009, 06:49:42

Quote from: ripster;140328

I map the Nostromo Dpad to numbers.  Check out my son's Spy rankings here:  Ripster[ESG] (http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970472092/stats/TF2)  He uses Buckling Springs.  LOL!

Point is, the HHKB2 is a fine keyboard for typing/coding.  Don't expect it to improve your gaming scores.

Funny you should bring that up. I'm an active ESG member, and I started to do research on the HHKB after an ESG admin talked about how much he absolutely fell in love with that keyboard and would get one if only they made an ergo design. I had heard of it before, but I really only considered standard mechanical offerings like cherry's. He said he'd be so jealous if I got one, so I figured it had to be something worth looking at. After reading about the coding benefits, it seemed like a brilliant choice. Then I read all the very negative things about gaming on them, got tossed in limbo, and here I am.

I'm not sure if he was using the lite or the pro 2. He plays comp solly and complains about rocket jumping on his current board (cheap msft ergo), so I take it the no bottom left key was not a problem at all. I'd just map crouch to shift as it is in some games. That happens to be more comfortable/natural before you train the ctrl positioning into your hand. I'm asking him about which one he had and what features he liked about it. I'll see what he says.




@o2dazone: you make an interesting comment considering that rdjack said that they use 30g topres on the realforce csneo arcade. Maybe the weight really does make a difference?




@AndrewZorn: You said you used browns and topres though I don't remember you mentioning how they were for gaming. I saw a post by you on another forum in a thread about gaming keyboards. Someone said their first choice was HHKB and second was Realforce 87u, to which you replied that coincidentally you were trying to decide between those, and seemed as if you were going to go for the hhkb after hearing that. So how is it for you personally? And how does it compare to the browns?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 07:34:58

i prefer topres to browns for games.  the topre seems very springy and on/off and easy to push repeatedly, whereas the brown is linear (funny how this is normally the preference) and you are sort of feeling clicks when you dont need to, since you are going to be pushing the key down all the way anyway.

its also really really nice to have the keyboard centered with the screen and not having the mouse too far away.  i had my 104 key filco out the other day, which is even small for a full-size, and i dont know how i ever used a keyboard that long.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 December 2009, 08:35:08

Quote from: ripster;140328

I map the Nostromo Dpad to numbers.

I used the d-pad for movement (WASD), leaving the other keys free for whatever.  I miss gaming on it.  It still sits on my desk; dusty and unused.  Poor thing.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 09 December 2009, 09:51:48

Trolling is my job here!

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 December 2009, 09:52:43

You still have to beat Webwit, young Padawan.  Quality > Quantity

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 December 2009, 10:04:57

Quote from: ripster;140470

Really folks, it's easy, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

Sorry.  I had some leftovers in the fridge I needed to get rid of.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Wed, 09 December 2009, 13:00:47

Quote from: AndrewZorn;140250

you want to know whats funny?  you are absolutely right about the g15, i bought one, technically still have it.  had never played a game taht supported the LCD until now, AFTER i bought all these fancy keyboards and ditched the G15.

the point still remains that it is unnecessary and all, just annoying that i dont get to use it until it is too late.

it was kind of handy for MP3 information and stuff i guess...

that is why i keep wishing that there was some sort of usb 'pod' that is just an LCD and media buttons.  not a 5.25" bay device, just something that i can use independently of a keyboard for that kind of thing.  would also quell the arguments over at XtremeSystems about the G15 being amazing and all.

Saw this today on my rss: http://gizmodo.com/5422561/15+inch-usb-screen-is-of-questionable-usefulness?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gizmodo%2Ffull+%28Gizmodo%29 (http://gizmodo.com/5422561/15+inch-usb-screen-is-of-questionable-usefulness?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gizmodo%2Ffull+%28Gizmodo%29)

If you need a hub and buttons (I don't see buttons) just hack it with a cheap hub or something. It only costs $30, could be a fun project.

@ripster: well you have topres, has your realforce gotten mushy? Do you have something against them?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 09 December 2009, 13:15:41

The mushiness of that Compaq is most likely due to excessive use. I've seen the same types of keyboards before and they feel much better, but they weren't nearly as worn as the one you describe seems to be.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 14:55:38

i cant imagine a cherry feels the same after XX million keystrokes either

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: jedidove on Wed, 09 December 2009, 14:59:21

Quote from: ripster;140564

No, my Topre is not mushy and as my sig says it's probably my 3rd most used keyboard.

Sorry there, mistook something for sarcasm lol.

Quote from: ripster;140564

But really, you ARE thinking about this too much.  Why not get a Cherry Brown and when you're into uber coding mode get a HHKB2?

Because if I found the Topre's comparable to, if not better than, the browns for gaming, I could save myself over $100 (combined cost difference) and have an even more portable board now, with the added benefit for when I have to write up stuff in LateX/emacs, plus a better typing experience if I am to believe the opinions I have been hearing. On the other hand if I found the Topre's terrible for gaming as some say (though I'm now starting to doubt), then I'll be left saying "should have gotten browns and waited before getting the HHKB" for the next 2 years.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 15:10:23

i still am not understanding this:

(http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/SE1700_iso.jpg)

often referenced as THE BEST KEYBOARD FOR GAYMEN... EVER!!!
its one of the few to come with the lavender WASD keys

i just feel like the marketing of the realforce is for gaming, and the HHKB for coding...
people call the realforce a great gaming board, worth the investment, lasts forever, etc
but then people call the HHKB an awful gaming board, forgetting that it uses the same switch.  i could maybe get it if they criticized the layout, but the conversation always comes back to cherry blacks when it starts with the HHKB.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 09 December 2009, 15:16:39

Quote from: AndrewZorn;140646

i still am not understanding this:

Show Image

(http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/SE1700_iso.jpg)

often referenced as THE BEST KEYBOARD FOR GAYMEN... EVER!!!
its one of the few to come with the lavender WASD keys

i just feel like the marketing of the realforce is for gaming, and the HHKB for coding...
people call the realforce a great gaming board, worth the investment, lasts forever, etc
but then people call the HHKB an awful gaming board, forgetting that it uses the same switch.  i could maybe get it if they criticized the layout, but the conversation always comes back to cherry blacks when it starts with the HHKB.

Keyboard switches are a matter of preference. I would probably use basically any switch for games because I don't see the point of a gaming switch versus a typing switch. Everything about keyboards is subjective when it comes to switches and layouts.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 09 December 2009, 16:27:40

I like to use the Model M for gaming. It's great for Solitaire!

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 16:39:14

Quote from: ripster;140680

Colored keys = better gaming??

Nope,

Colored keys = Asian obsession.

All I'm saying is the HHKB2  would be a terrible board for me for gaming since my pinky expects a corner key.  Also, I'd rather wear out WASD on a $100 board.

hey, it wasnt my idea, im just saying that it clearly isnt an asian obsession to color a certain 4 keys over and over.
the filco has them as an accessory, as do many, but the 87u includes them, and these keys are associated with FPS games.

WASD are replaceable for a mere $5 a key or something... [sarcasm]

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: 1839cc on Wed, 09 December 2009, 16:49:46

Quote from: andrewzorn;140646

often referenced as the best keyboard for gaymen... Ever!!!
Its one of the few to come with the lavender wasd keys

^^^ lol ^^^

EDIT: What's with no caps?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 16:58:57

Quote from: ripster;140696

I meant wear out the WASD rubber domes.

30 million chatters or something

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 09 December 2009, 17:15:52

well then cherry isnt much longer

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 09 December 2009, 17:28:52

Just about any keyboard is great for the type of gaming I do.
(http://toastytech.com/guis/win31games.png)

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: bitflipper on Wed, 09 December 2009, 18:02:06

No, this is the future of PC gaming...

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 09 December 2009, 18:06:24

Quote from: bitflipper;140749

No, this is the future of PC gaming...

AUUUGHH Flashback!!

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 09 December 2009, 20:59:11

Quote from: AndrewZorn;140395

i prefer topres to browns for games.  the topre seems very springy and on/off and easy to push repeatedly, whereas the brown is linear (funny how this is normally the preference) and you are sort of feeling clicks when you dont need to, since you are going to be pushing the key down all the way anyway.

its also really really nice to have the keyboard centered with the screen and not having the mouse too far away.  i had my 104 key filco out the other day, which is even small for a full-size, and i dont know how i ever used a keyboard that long.

Then perhaps it's purely preference. While I do game on my HHKB a lot (I know...shame on me), I also work a lot, work hard play hard. I won't swap keyboards to prevent gaming on a Topre. If anything it limbers up my fingers to get used to different hotkey shortcuts so I can minimize my mouse use when I'm working.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: hyperlinked on Wed, 09 December 2009, 22:53:15

Quote from: bitflipper;140749

No, this is the future of PC gaming...

Is that NetHack?

Let's see some Net Trek next?

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 09 December 2009, 23:22:14

Quote from: webwit;140751

You better not tell what you are planning to buy next, or I might post my Fujitsu Peerless board on ebay while you are asleep, with the right triggers for your buying bot, for a ludicrous price!

Hey quit teasing him. You know he wants it so just send it as a Christmas present.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: bitflipper on Wed, 09 December 2009, 23:40:58

Quote from: hyperlinked;140797

Is that NetHack?

Let's see some Net Trek next?

yep

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 10 December 2009, 19:04:10

Quote from: webwit;140751

You better not tell what you are planning to buy next, or I might post my Fujitsu Peerless board on ebay while you are asleep, with the right triggers for your buying bot, for a ludicrous price!

Keeping your computers off at night doesn't save just electricity.

Title: Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Thu, 24 December 2009, 19:49:08

Quote from: microsoft windows;140727

Just about any keyboard is great for the type of gaming I do.

Show Image

(http://toastytech.com/guis/win31games.png)

*glances at bottom left of screenshot*

program manager... so we meet again