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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: knowsnokb on Sat, 05 March 2016, 10:39:33
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Who have used an Ergodox/Ergodox Infinity & adopted is as their main keyboard? Who didnt? Why?
Just wanted to get some opinions on people's experiences, short term and long term.
Looks wise, the Ergodox doesn't appeal to me as much as a 60%, but I'm curious who have abandoned the oh-so-many great single board keyboards and completely switched 100% to the ergodox? How long has it been since you completely switched? Is it really more ergonomical for writing/coding?
What about those who have used the Ergodox for a while but decided to just move back to the single board keyboards? Why? Looks? Not as ergonomic as you thought it would be?
Who actually uses it 50% of the time? If you do, how hard is switching back and forth? Do you start to miss keys?
thanks
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I was in the second wave of shipments for the first ED Infinity drop, and have been using the ErgoDox as my main board since then. I'm never going back to (primarily) a standard layout; in fact, I'm waiting on a second one from the second drop so that I have one dedicated for both home and office.
The hardest thing to get used to is moving some of the keys like backspace and enter to the thumb cluster, but that's the main advantage of the ErgoDox. The second sort of weird thing that takes some getting used to is having the halves separated. When I used a standard keyboard exclusively, I would rely on the spacing between my hands to help me orientate, and having the two halves move independent was a bit disorientating.
That said, it didn't take too long to get used to, and I still go back and forth (I have a standard KB on my home computer during the week, and use the keyboard on my work laptop when I need to be mobile). When I switch back, it's mostly a few sentences worth of confusion before I'm back into regular mode. I don't have as much trouble with losing the thumb clusters as I did learning them since I think I've trained myself to use both layouts.
Here are the things that I will look for in every new keyboard I buy in order of importance:
1. Full programability. My ErgoDox currently has 9 functional layers, and I really like how they have changed the way I use keyboards. Being able to hit a function key with my left hand and have my right hand turn into a numpad or a navigation cluster is super handy.
2. Split halves. I do think it allows you to relax your shoulders while typing once you get used to it. I'm going to start working on a tenting solution, and I expect when I get it set how I like it, it'll be even better. The only time I would consider sacrificing this would be for portability (I'm thinking about getting a Planck to carry around with my laptop).
3. Matrix layout. It's not that you notice as being better when you are using the keyboard, but it's one of those things that when you go back you miss it. All keyboards should be build this way.
I don't really care about the aesthetics. I see my keyboard primarily as a device for interfacing with my computer. I've seen some cool builds ranging from extreme case builds to simply putting some custom keycaps and LEDs.
I do a lot of programming, and I think full programability is what you want for writing code.
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I've had my ErgoDox since the very first drop in early 2013, and I've used other keyboards in the meantime as well (including Kinesis Advantage, something like the Humble Hacker Keyboard, and Phantom in 7bit's layout).
I don't use it right now, but it's one of my favorite keyboards thus far. I've rebuilt it with 80 keys and sculpted keycaps (https://i.imgur.com/WF71uU8.jpg).
A lot of my positive feelings about the keyboard are tied to the layout, that I use (https://i.imgur.com/SjjhjY7.png) (I've made some minor changes, but they're not relevant here). Notably:
- Nearly all keys are under my fingertip or in an adjacent column at worst. I'm extremely happy, that basically all the hard-to-reach outer keys from the standard layout are missing; I mean US QWERTY `-=[]\' in particular. The awkward asymmetrical stagger is gone too. This layout just makes much more sense.
- The keyboard obviously runs open-source firmware with a customizable keymap. Thanks to the symmetry, I can easily alternate hands to press (easily accessible!) modifiers, that enable access to layers. Therefore, using Control or AltGraph a lot isn't such a PITA as on a standard keyboard layout. The layer with special ASCII symbols around the home row is very nice too. For instance, I can type proper localized quotation marks in the home resting spot with only moving my thumbs a little bit.
- Obviously, it provides an (almost) arbitrary hand separation.
I do, however, have several issues with the keyboard.
- It's actually portable, unlike a full-size keyboard or, say, Kinesis Advantage, but not nearly as convenient as a compact single-piece keyboard (notably, TypeMatrix 2030 is a whole different class in this regard, thanks to its scissor switches and optional skins). In addition, the interconnection is rather fragile, and the typical acrylic cases don't help either… in fact, they're horrible.
- The situation around firmware options is a mess. I mean actual fragmentation. If you need a somewhat non-standard hardware configuration, you have to find the right branch (of the right fork) of either Ben's firmware, or TMK, and modify that (sometimes a lot).
- Keycap availability isn't great. You either have to stick with Signature Plastics' ****ty unergonomic DSA sets, or even ****tier DCS caps, or overpay for a (hopefully contoured) SA set in a group buy,… or harvest keycaps all over the place (like me), which is alright, but more effort than most people would wish for.
- Thumb keys, even with contoured keycaps, are still on the same plane as the respective main section. Moreover, the shape/size of thumb clusters is generally regarded as suboptimal, although I have yet to see a currently produced keyboard, that fares better than the 80key ErgoDox.
My current stance is such, that I'll happily ditch the ErgoDox for a compact single-piece symmetrical-stagger keyboard similar to NEC PC-9801-98-S02 (https://deskthority.net/photos-f62/nec-pc-9801-98-s02-t5212.html), but I have to build one first, because there's no such thing in the market. TECK is the closest product to this, but I'm not giving money to that company even in my wildest dreams, and there are too few thumb keys anyway.
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I got three in use currently, and I don't use other keyboard anymore. I think I have been using ErgoDox exclusively for more than two years?
Before ErgoDox, I never learned how to type properly. However, I can now type without looking down on the ErgoDox. It might be the separation of the two halves that helped keep my hand on their home position.
Also the TMK firmware helped, because I have assigned the arrow keys to my right hand home row. Thus I seldom move my hand away from the home row.
Portability is indeed an issue, that's why I got three in every where I might use the computer seriously. I also think a "compact single-piece symmetrical-stagger keyboard" is a good one. Not to replace my ErgoDox, but serve as a portable input device that I can carry around.
Interconnection was an issue, but I have overcome this with RJ11 cable, custom TRRS cable, dual mini USB cable, and they all work pretty well.
The thumb cluster could be improved, because I didn't use all the keys in the thumb cluster. But with enter, space, del, backspace and modifier keys in the thumb cluster, the advantage outweights the disadvantage.
I am really happy with my ErgoDox, and will remain so in the foreseeable future.
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I tried only an Ergodox mock-up and I decided to rather build a contoured version of Ergodox. Mostly to improve the thumb clusters and the bottom row keys. The rest seemed good enough for me.
Katy keyboard (K80CS) v0.7 (https://deskthority.net/post282413.html#p282413)
I'm using Katy almost exclusively ... and don't intend to give it up ;D
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Using two ergodox keyboards....one at home, one at work.
Sometimes I'm typing on "normal" keyboards, but I really like the ergodox.
I haven't tried a Kinesis or Maltron yet, but the ergodox is already so much better than my old keyboards.
Had a MS Natural 4000 before, which was a nice rubber dome keyboard. But the matrix layout, the free tenting, the mechanical switches (i use MX blues at home and MX browns at work), the better use of the thumbs....Really nice.
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Using two ergodox keyboards....one at home, one at work.
Sometimes I'm typing on "normal" keyboards, but I really like the ergodox.
I haven't tried a Kinesis or Maltron yet, but the ergodox is already so much better than my old keyboards.
Had a MS Natural 4000 before, which was a nice rubber dome keyboard. But the matrix layout, the free tenting, the mechanical switches (i use MX blues at home and MX browns at work), the better use of the thumbs....Really nice.
What are you using for tenting?
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I'm going into month 3 with mine now, and I think I'm pretty much used to it. One of my kids is now using my CMStorm QFR on her computer, and every now and then I will have to go help with something..... and I don't like it. Not only is the layout uncomfortable for me, but I truly can't stand NOT using blues..... don't care about the noise at all, anything else just feels a bit too mushy / different to me now.
If I didn't work from home, I would definitely be in the market for another one for my workplace. It's really that good, IMO. Specifically to your questions, I use mine for coding / web development primarily, and everything else secondarily. Not like I'm writing thousands of lines of code per day, but I'm on my keyboard A LOT in a given day. My hands are probably considerably larger than normal, and I don't have too much issue with the thumb clusters, though I have relegated mostly unused keys to that area.
To sum it up, I've definitely adopted mine as my main keyboard :) Now I play the waiting game for the Granite caps, but once those are here, I'm set.
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I have small hands and the thumb cluster was just a bit too far for me to enjoy. I prefer both the Kinesis Advantage and the Truly Ergonomic. But I switch between a ton of different keyboards regularly, both ergonomic and non-ergonomic.
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I bought an ErgoDox on the first round and immediately knew that I would never be happy with a conventional board again. I found it unnecessary for me to have separate halves once I found the placement that worked best for me and joined them as a single unit.
I have since made several custom boards which borrow much from the ErgoDox design and have been using my Alumaplop exclusively since I completed it. I'm currently working on another board (although the progress of Planet 6 has stalled because of other more pressing issues) and hope to one day use it as my desktop keyboard. It owes much of its design to the ErgoDox, and the earlier Key64 concept, as well.
The ErgoDox features I like the most are thumb keys, staggered columns, programability, and the ability to customize the position of the halves. The only negative for me is the thumb key placement which isn't bad but could be improved.
The original ErgoDox design isn't perfect but history will probably, one day, look back on it as an important step in ergo keyboard design, especially for the DIY keyboard crowd.
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TECK is the closest product to this, but I'm not giving money to that company even in my wildest dreams, and there are too few thumb keys anyway.
What's wrong with that company?
I'm asking because I bought TECK keyboard, didn't like it, returned it and got refund without any problem.
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TECK is the closest product to this, but I'm not giving money to that company even in my wildest dreams, and there are too few thumb keys anyway.
What's wrong with that company?
I'm asking because I bought TECK keyboard, didn't like it, returned it and got refund without any problem.
I don't remember how the story went exactly, but basically there was some really shady business going on during the early months of the TECK, not being transparent enough, lies, etc, to the point people thought it was a scam and telling to avoid pre-purchasing one.
For example there were reviews before even the first prototype, making bold claims without proof and the company wasn't reliably trackable. IIRC the guy behind the TECK was also a huge **** to all criticism. Not to mention there has also been a lot of quality issues with the keyboard.
In other words the company's success relied on deceit and people understandably don't appreciate that and don't want to support such a company.
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See comments under the All Things Ergo review (http://allthingsergo.com/blog/reviews/truly-ergonomic-keyboard-review/).
After all, see their business reviews (https://www.bbb.org/mbc/business-reviews/computers-whol-and-mfrs/truly-ergonomic-ltd-in-vancouver-bc-1269309).
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See comments under the All Things Ergo review (http://allthingsergo.com/blog/reviews/truly-ergonomic-keyboard-review/).
After all, see their business reviews (https://www.bbb.org/mbc/business-reviews/computers-whol-and-mfrs/truly-ergonomic-ltd-in-vancouver-bc-1269309).
He's talking about the ergodox not truly ergonomics
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See comments under the All Things Ergo review (http://allthingsergo.com/blog/reviews/truly-ergonomic-keyboard-review/).
After all, see their business reviews (https://www.bbb.org/mbc/business-reviews/computers-whol-and-mfrs/truly-ergonomic-ltd-in-vancouver-bc-1269309).
He's talking about the ergodox not truly ergonomics
Try to read two last posts above the one you've quoted.
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See comments under the All Things Ergo review (http://allthingsergo.com/blog/reviews/truly-ergonomic-keyboard-review/).
After all, see their business reviews (https://www.bbb.org/mbc/business-reviews/computers-whol-and-mfrs/truly-ergonomic-ltd-in-vancouver-bc-1269309).
He's talking about the ergodox not truly ergonomics
Try to read two last posts above the one you've quoted.
NO, that's too much effort.