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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:09:37

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:09:37

I am guessing that this isn't the first thread regarding this topic, but considering I have been looking for an ALPS board ever since I got my buckling spring, I would like to bring this up again.  What is the difference between genuine complicated white ALPS and genuine complicated blue ALPS?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:37:29

Sixty is sending a Blue Alps board my way, I was sold on the description that it's as light as a Blue Cherry. I suspect the springs might different.

Damn, it's always those springs, innit? =P

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:40:08

So a white ALPS board would be springier than a blue ALPS board?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:42:22

Depends on what you mean by springy - do you mean it in terms of resistance, or do you mean it in terms of bouncy-ness?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:45:07

Bouncy-ness, which is bouncy-er?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 17:55:41

Do you have to get the thread off-topic this soon?  I really want to find out the difference between blue and white alps here...

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 18:17:36

Unfortunately as I haven't used either yet, I couldn't tell you. Hopefully someone else will come along soon and answer your question.

I'm also quite curious about this question myself, as they sound like very different switches, yet there's very little on why this is the case.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: sixty on Mon, 07 December 2009, 19:10:13

Okay, my experience so far:

the old blue alps (without the logo on the top) feel exactly the same as the very first generation white alps (without a logo on top too).

However, then there is the newer types of white ALPS that is also used in late Focus 2001 boards that do not feel nearly as smooth. I think this is what Sandy meant when he said "once you use original complicated ALPS you will know".

I dunno what else to write here. As with every aLpS related topic there is not really one solution to it. ch_123 should be receiving the blue switch board I sent him sometime this week and hopefully will like them as much as I did.

One thing is for sure: blue alps are good stuff.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 19:22:48

I have a very good sense of humor, I just wanted to know if blue alps are any good.  You can look at my sense of humor by looking at all the crappy computers I have.  I don't have them because they are good, I have them because they are funny looking.  Also, I may be the only person in the world to wire up his computer lab to Ethernet using a remote controlled car.

In other words, I appreciate your humor.  Keep right on humoring.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 07 December 2009, 19:38:33

That's cold.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Mon, 07 December 2009, 19:51:15

I didn't mean to offend anyone.  Are my posts that annoying sometimes?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Mon, 07 December 2009, 23:03:14

i don't know about the dutch, but i love those butter cookies. or is that the danish? are dutch danish? denmark isn't amsterdam, is it? but that's in holland. wait.

europe is complicated
like white alps!
which are in switzerland right?
dammit.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 00:14:28

Quote from: sixty;139967

Okay, my experience so far:

the old blue alps (without the logo on the top) feel exactly the same as the very first generation white alps (without a logo on top too).

However, then there is the newer types of white ALPS that is also used in late Focus 2001 boards that do not feel nearly as smooth. I think this is what Sandy meant when he said "once you use original complicated ALPS you will know".

I dunno what else to write here. As with every aLpS related topic there is not really one solution to it. ch_123 should be receiving the blue switch board I sent him sometime this week and hopefully will like them as much as I did.

One thing is for sure: blue alps are good stuff.

Yes, as I have both these switches.  The blue with no logo, and the focus white complicated with alps logos on top, not to be confused with even later focus boards that used simplified switches where there's a huge difference.  I can tell there is a difference, between real blue and real white, but it's very very subtle.  The blue alps switches seem to be a little stiffer in general imo.  But this can also be effected by the caps.  If there is a difference it's far less than what type of cap the switch has, or how the switch is mounted, that's for sure, and nowhere near the difference between fake and real.

Typically the original blue alps switches come with a cap that has a more rubbery stem and underside than later complicated alps switches which may be constructed entirely different, usually with harder plastic, which may account for a large difference in impression between one or the other.

It would be interesting to run a force test like they have on that one Japanese page with force graphs, on the blue and white real's and see what the exact microscopic difference is.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 00:59:09

Quote from: ripster;140028

This still sounds fuzzy to me.  So there may be a difference or may not depending on what keys are mounted on the switch?

Hasn't anyone just taken the switch apart and just looked?  Usually you  can eyeball springs and see different windings and thicknesses.

You know, like this:

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6204&stc=1&d=1260228419)

Alright.  I'll do it.  Even if the springs are the same size though, one of the things that might be effecting it is the quality and properties of the material used, different alloy in the spring, different friction coeficient of the blue vrs white plastic, ect.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 01:14:25

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2671/4167953629_a867ab9d70_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2485/4167953891_ba958a655e_b.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2658/4167954163_52d48d08db_b.jpg)

No physical difference between them, except the color of the plastics used that I can see.

Just pressing the switch however, the white's click is much louder.  This could be an artifact of the particular switch though.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 08 December 2009, 01:23:32

hmm, the whites' springs have more windings at their ends.

do the leafs have any circular dimples in them?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 01:30:05

Quote from: msiegel;140034

hmm, the whites' springs have more windings at their ends.

do the leafs have any circular dimples in them?

Hmm, didn't notice that..... that could be true.  I suppose I should take better pictures of them side by side to see with my lightbox and everything.

I didn't notice any dimples.  Where would they be? The tactile springs are the ones with the dimples...

Oh alright. They have dimples at the top, on the neck of the leaf.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 08 December 2009, 10:09:55

I am going to go with a blue ALPS board i think, I found one for pretty cheap.  It is genuine I think.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 10:24:15

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;140098

I am going to go with a blue ALPS board i think, I found one for pretty cheap.  It is genuine I think.

Most blue alps are xt, because the cut off was about the same date they came out with AT computers, I think Northgates were one of the few that had them still, and those go for a mint so good luck with that.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 10:42:36

Sounds like I got myself a bargain!

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 08 December 2009, 16:52:20

Does anyone here have a detailed close-up of an original white ALPS keyswitch?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 20:33:43

Quote from: microsoft windows;140239

Does anyone here have a detailed close-up of an original white ALPS keyswitch?

Mine weren't good enough? What part do you want?

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 08 December 2009, 20:45:18

Quote from: chimera15;140324

Mine weren't good enough? What part do you want?

here are some clear shots of various switch parts:

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech.htm (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech.htm)
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/switch.htm (http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/switch.htm)


btw, if anyone has CAD files of the Model F barrel & hammer, i'd love copies ;D

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 09 December 2009, 01:51:09

Quote from: ripster;140333

That 2nd link is a new one to me.

Still couldn't figure out what they are saying about the Blue vs White.  If anybody reads Japanese be sure to chime in.
Here's a translated version. (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww7.ocn.ne.jp%2F~hisao%2Fimage%2Fswitch.htm&sl=ja&tl=en)

P.S.  I just got a mint Complicated White ALPS - sure beats the XM simplifieds and Complicated Blacks.

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6234&stc=1&d=1260328221)

They're saying that the holder for the contacts is gray, instead of white with whites...that's the only real difference that page has listed. Also there's no logo on top, that's about it.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 09 December 2009, 08:22:54

Thanks for the photos! I can now officially conclude that my Focus FK-9000 has the complicated ALPS. The switches are the exact same except they say "4" on them instead of "0" and "2".

Another funny thing I noticed on my Focus is the fact that all the key switches on the top row (PF11, PF12, Esc, F1-12, Print Screen, etc.) are upside down. I wonder why.

I also found the switches on the lock keys to be very interesting. They are yellow ALPS switches with LEDS. It appears that the LED's are deep down inside the switch but are visible through a red piece of plastic. None of the keys on those switches are double-shot either: they are printed instead. Maybe it's because of the clean plastic part for the indicator light.

Title: Blue ALPS vs. White ALPS
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 06 January 2010, 07:15:11

Got a White Alps (Original, Genuine Complicated etc) switch which I put into my SGI for the Esc key. Comparing the two, they feel very similar except that the White Alps has a higher resistance for actuation and thus feel more clunky. I'd have to give it to the Blue Alps purely on the basis that it's a lighter switch, but still has enough 'clunk' to make them enjoyable to type on.