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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: skyem123 on Tue, 15 March 2016, 16:09:13
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Hello, I am new to these forums, so I do not know if this is the correct place to ask this, but I hope it is.
So my old (rubber dome) keyboard died, and I have a rare chance to spend a lot of money for a keyboard. (sadly I can't buy keyboards whenever I want :P)
So I decided that I would get a buckling spring keyboard, as I had tried one in a computer museum once, and liked typing on it.
So, after some looking around, I wanted a 122-key keyboard form Unicomp.
However, after some more research, I have found a problem.
From what I can understand, there are three variants of the keyboards:
- PC122 - Sends key combinations for the keys not found on a normal keyboard, so is fully compatible with a modern PC, but the extra keys are seen as key combinations, which are useless to me
- Terminal 122 - I do not know much about this, but I guess it must be some special terminal keyboard from the name
- Emulator 122 - While I am not sure exactly what this is (which is the main reason why I am asking this question!), it appears to be a keyboard that acts as a normal keyboard for the normal, but sends special / different scancodes for the extra keys not found on a normal keyboard, which needs a driver, that Unicomp apparently doesn't supply
Now, I have been doing some research and I have found out some things, mainly that it's apparently possible to create drivers for it, without too much effort, according to http://www.seasip.info/Misc/122key_nt.html (http://www.seasip.info/Misc/122key_nt.html).
Due to the fact that it's expensive to get the keyboard, and due to shipping costs, I can't get it returned!
So I want to know if its a good idea to get the Emulator 122 (or another type of Unicomp 122-key?), or if I should go with a keyboard with less keys from a Unicomp re-seller closer to me.
Thanks in advance for any advice people can give me!
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Welcome to Geekhack!
This post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62060.0) provides a fairly detailed tear-down of a Unicomp M122.
Another alternative is to get an original IBM M122 (or even an F122) which would be somewhat sturdier, but will require a converter to get it to work on a modern PC.
Most converters can be programmed to map the extra keys any way you want.
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Hmm... so from what I can understand, if I can, I should get an older IBM keyboard, rather than the the Unicomp one because the Unicomp is not as great as quality?
That's good to know, but after quickly checking Ebay (I wonder if there's a better place for getting old keyboards), the only ones that are on sale don't have the layout that I expect (which will be annoying for me, as I do look at my keyboard a lot), and don't have lock lights.
I guess it's a question of is it better to get a Unicomp keyboard that has a slightly lower build quality, or should I get a old IBM keyboard that I'd need to sort out a converter and somehow swap keys around a bit... does anyone have any advice on which is better?
(note that I'd like to use PS/2 for the connection, because it saves a USB port that I can use for other things)
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Hmm... so from what I can understand, if I can, I should get an older IBM keyboard, rather than the the Unicomp one because the Unicomp is not as great as quality?
That's good to know, but after quickly checking Ebay (I wonder if there's a better place for getting old keyboards), the only ones that are on sale don't have the layout that I expect (which will be annoying for me, as I do look at my keyboard a lot), and don't have lock lights.
I guess it's a question of is it better to get a Unicomp keyboard that has a slightly lower build quality, or should I get a old IBM keyboard that I'd need to sort out a converter and somehow swap keys around a bit... does anyone have any advice on which is better?
(note that I'd like to use PS/2 for the connection, because it saves a USB port that I can use for other things)
With Unicomp you get a PC122 with a usb or ps2 connector, true. The catch is you're paying for something to be produced using the same tools as the older 122 models. From what people say, Unicomp case blemishes vary depending on the model you decide to buy.
IBM - You'll need a converter
Unicomp - Might need a paint job.
Unicomp has keysets and all kinds of extra keys but if you want the real deal then buy a used IBM 122.
I love that keyboard :)
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Well, I would get an older IBM keyboard if the ones on ebay I can find had lock lights, and I'm also slightly nervous because I read somewhere that the older ones take up too much power for modern computer PS/2 ports...
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I was looking at Unicomp myself but given all the reports/reviews i have seen of subpar QC i'm just going to wait until i trade/buy the real deal eventually.
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So... looking on Ebay, the only one that can be found in the UK is http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MEMOREX-212704-001-122KEY-TERMINAL-KEYBOARD-USED-/231872179349 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MEMOREX-212704-001-122KEY-TERMINAL-KEYBOARD-USED-/231872179349). I don't know if I should try to get it because the ebay page lacks information, has anyone got any advice?
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This is something that's been discussed many, many times here.
I love the old IBM Model M's, but I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to buy and use a Unicomp. (I'm typing on an Ultra Classic right now.)
The earlier IBMs were made exceptionally well. But when you buy a keyboard that's been used for over 20 years—often full-time, in a business environment—you never know what condition it's in, or how long it'll stay that way.
I like fixing up old KBs, but I also have a better idea of how to do it than most people (from hanging out here—thanks, guys!). If you don't know how, and you're not interested in learning, I personally think you're better off getting a new Unicomp with a warranty.
Despite what many people say, the difference in feel is negligible. They use exactly the same key mechanism—and while Unicomps may not be quite as massive or heavy as 1st- or 2nd-generation IBMs, they're vastly more solid and durable than the cheap KBs most people use these days, and even more than many mechanical KBs.
You're also supporting a small, specialized company that's trying to preserve something of great quality and tradition, in an age when few people care about such things.
Plus, you can get them in black. Buh ha ha.
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Unicomps are pretty good, not quite as high quality as the Model M's but they are up there.
The main issue is the molding of the plastics. They're apparently using quite outdated molds (the same molds used to make Model M's back in the day!) and it's quite common to find blemishes on the keycaps, marks on the board, sometimes the spacebars are warped. They also use a much thinner backplate than the actual Model M's.
But the typing feel is identical, some will say the Unicomps are a bit stiffer but that's mainly because they are brand new buckling springs, versus Model M's which are likely to have been used previously and are more worn in.
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Hm... so if I get a keyboard from Unicomp, I should also order an extra set of keycaps?
Also, my main worry is that if the Emulator keyboard would actually work with the extra keys on Windows and Linux, all the research I have done so far has shown it to be possible but it's not "plug and play".
Also, there's a 122-key terminal keyboard on Ebay for £20. Should I risk getting it, or should I make sure I get a properly working keyboard that doesn't need a converter from Unicomp?
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I think I read somewhere that modern computers can only use that extra F row if you get the usb version. I don't know if this is true, not much on Unicomps site to support this.
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I doubt that, but I think if I wanted to use USB, I'd have to either get a USB version or make my own converter that handles the extra keys.
Also, I think that if http://www.seasip.info/Misc/122key_nt.html is correct, then PS/2 works just fine. Windows NT 3.x does not have USB support. :P
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Ah ok, I've read that the usb version's F13-F24 output as Shift + F1 --> Shift + F12 for regular Windows computers. It seems unlikely to me that ps2 has functionality for macros like shift + F1. I still have much to learn.
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Well... I asked Unicomp myself, and they said that the PC122 keyboards send the key combinations, which I assume will be the same for both USB and PS/2, if I didn't misread what they said.
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So, I have been doing some more thinking, and I think that I might as well buy the keyboard (along with another set of key caps). I will have to make a custom keyboard layout for Windows, and even if worst comes to worst, and I can't use the extra fancy keys, I could make a converter somehow (I know how to solder and I have some ATMega chips and a programmer for them that I need to find a use for! :P), because there's no motivation like actually wanting to use something.
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Finally, I managed to order it!
I had to contact support a few times, but they were helpful.
When I get it, I'll probably post photos on this fourm, because I'd by lying if I said that I wasn't excited. :p
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Great! I can't wait to see the pictures :D
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Congrats, you'll really like it, I'm sure.
Buckling springs are one of the best clicky switches, second only to the buckling springs on the Model F and blue ALPS.
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Finally, I managed to order it!
I had to contact support a few times, but they were helpful.
When I get it, I'll probably post photos on this fourm, because I'd by lying if I said that I wasn't excited. :p
I'm definitely interested to hear about your experiences once you get it and use it for awhile also...have heard far more bad than good with Unicomp and that's the reason i have put off ordering one myself.
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How stiff / hard ARE the springs actually on a model m / unicomp compared to let's say stock clears?
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How stiff / hard ARE the springs actually on a model m / unicomp compared to let's say stock clears?
Clears feel significantly stiffer. The thing about the Model M is that it almost feels lighter than an MX Blue because the force curve is opposite. The force goes from stiff to very light when the tactility is achieved, and this is one of the best ways to achieve tactility that I've experienced. Bottoming out is very soft, the tactility is smooth and consistent, and yet it's not too fatiguing to type on. With MX Clears, they start getting very stiff near bottoming out. So stiff that it's literally a chore just to bottom out. This may be taken as a good thing, but the consensus is, Model Ms are somewhat light to type on. The 70g actuation is as stiff as the switch will get throughout its keypress. Cherry MX Clears get as stiff as 95cN. That's 25cN higher than buckling springs.
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How stiff / hard ARE the springs actually on a model m / unicomp compared to let's say stock clears?
They have a pretty difference force curve.
MX Clears get progressively stiffer after the bump, Buckling Springs are heavier to actuate but completely collapse after the bump.
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How stiff / hard ARE the springs actually on a model m / unicomp compared to let's say stock clears?
They have a pretty difference force curve.
MX Clears get progressively stiffer after the bump, Buckling Springs are heavier to actuate but completely collapse after the bump.
So BS really ARE more similar to Topre in terms of their force curve?
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Not really, it's just that neither BS or Topre get stiffer after actuation, as is the case with most tactile and clicky switches.
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Not really, it's just that neither BS or Topre get stiffer after actuation, as is the case with most tactile and clicky switches.
Aah ok thanks for clearing that up!
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Well... The keyboard is currently being shipped, FedEx says that it'll arrive on Monday (I don't know if what FedEx says is accurate, though).
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So, good news! I got the keyboard on Friday (3 days early, if I'm counting correctly).
The keyboard works fine, and looks good, and it's very nice to type on.
However, there are things that I didn't know that caught me out:
- First off, the 122-key 5250 Emulator keyboard has a different layout to the PC/122 5250 keyboard, which means that you might want to buy a set of PC/122 5250 keycaps if you buy the Emulator 5250.
- Secondly, the layout does not include a numlock key! It doesn't matter for me (and can be fixed with a custom keyboard layout, which I'll explain later), but it's good to note so others don't get caught out.
So, to solve the few issues (other than that, it's a great keyboard!), you need to replace the key caps, and also make a custom keyboard layout.
Now to get the keys, I had to boot into Linux (using a live CD / DVD), and run some tools!
I followed the advice in https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/extra_keyboard_keys (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/extra_keyboard_keys), which was using showkeys --scancodes in a Linux console (not one in a Terminal window! using the console that takes up the whole screen). This got the keys that Linux already recognized, which I noted down onto a sheet of paper.
I then used dmesg to show me what the scancodes were of the keys that Linux did not recognize, and so ignored except logging an error.
Now with all the positions and scancodes of the 122 keys, I rebooted into Windows to make a custom keyboard layout.
So to help me, I used a guide (http://www.seasip.info/Misc/122key_nt.html (http://www.seasip.info/Misc/122key_nt.html)) on getting the extra function keys on such a keyboard to work.
This guide was helpful, but it did not handle all the keys, so I had to do some further modification to the kbd.incfile to make sure that all the keys matched what I wanted.
Another source of information that was helpful was http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm (http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm), as it contained information about scancodes, and helped me understand the printscreen and pause/break buttons.
Oh, by the way, it might be tricky to remap the "print screen" and "pause/break" keys once you find them (they are the keys that send the really long scancodes, E1 1D 45 for pause/break, and E1 2A E0 37 for Print Screen, as from what I can tell, Windows appears to do some special case handling for them.
Once I did all of this, I managed to get the whole thing working how I wanted it. :D
I'm happy to help anyone else who needs similar help, but I am currently too tired to it presentable. :P (waking up at 4AM to throw up is not pleasant at all, and so I'm feeling so sleepy :'()
It would be nice if there was a microcontroller based way to remap scancodes from a PS/2 keyboard to a PS/2 computer, but as I only plan to use this keyboard for this computer, It would be overkill, and a keyboard layout is much less risky to make.
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Oh, quick note! I was playing Portal 2, and I discovered that it only detected the original escape key, even with a custom windows keyboard layout, which caught me out.
Nope, it was just windows messing with my keyboard layout selection!
Nope again! It was both windows and Portal 2. Strange.