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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: aptivaboy on Thu, 17 March 2016, 15:46:11
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Hi all,
I'm into HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts. Is anyone else into this in the community? It isn't LARP; we study from medieval fighting manuals and try to make it as close to the real thing as possible within the bounds of safety and legality. Loads of fun and handling a real longsword is... Amazing. Naturally, we're geared up and protected when we spar. I'm still coming off of disability so I just do footwork - no contact, yet - but I'm hoping that will change soon.
This is the video that got me into it: http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/100000003040466/inside-the-world-of-longsword-fighting.html
Any other practitioners of the art around?
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Watch out groupbuy scammerz..
We're gonna send -aptivaboy- after you .... (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/whaaat3-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862525)
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You ever see M1?
russians and medieval fighting
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Hmmm... Not sure that that's really HEMA. HEMA types tend to look down their noses at purely non-historical accuracy. That's both good and bad. We like the fun and theater of things like that, while condemning the usual lack of historical realism. We are not fun to watch movies with ("Aragorn was a fool to use longpoint there," "They would have never fought like that," and so on).
Those guys aren't fighting according to I.33, the oldest European fighting manual we have dealing with sword and buckler dating to the late 1200s, so it really isn't HEMA. Its fun entertainment, but it isn't HEMA. Using I.33 techniques, my coaches would have ended those guys in under 30 seconds apiece. Trust me.
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I've always found that because true fighting centers around killing your opponent, all physical competitions of this sort is lacking that vital essence of combat...
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You need to try HEMA, then. While there is a serious emphasis upon safety, I've seen plenty of broken bones and serious contusions. The amount of cloth and leather protection wear is pretty awesome. While HEMA members don't try to kill each other, the techniques are based upon actual martial arts schools and treatises of the medieval and early Renaissance periods, where killing was the ultimate goal. We'll use a blunted sword so that the other guy doesn't lose and arm, but believe me, you will feel it. I'm just getting back into it after some injuries (non-HEMA related) and mostly spectate, but man, I've seen some folks get knocked around.
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God damn, how did I not know this was a thing?
This has to be one of the coolest sports I've seen in a while.
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alexjd99, sorry for not noticing your post wayyyy back in the day. I'm also in Orange County. Google, "Kron Martial Arts." They have several chapters in Southern California. There is one at Cal State Fullerton. I attend Kron South Coast, which has a reputation of being a smaller, somewhat more serious group. Not having attended the Fullerton group, I can't say if that is true or not, but it's been said. Seriously, drop by on a Sunday afternoon or Tuesday or Thursday evening at the fencing center off of Harbor and Lake Center and give it at try.
bob
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geekhack katana GB incoming
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Katanas? Nope. An Oakeshott Type XV or XVIII would make mincemeat of them, the swordsman's skill excepted. A longsword can simply do things that a katana physically cannot by simple virtue of it's blade geometry, hand protection, and the poor steel that the typical katana was made from, which was the real reason for it's thick, curving blade profile. Katanas were cutters of necessity, not more versatile cut and thrust swords like your typical European medieval sword.
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Katanas? Nope. An Oakeshott Type XV or XVIII would make mincemeat of them, the swordsman's skill excepted. A longsword can simply do things that a katana physically cannot by simple virtue of it's blade geometry, hand protection, and the poor steel that the typical katana was made from, which was the real reason for it's thick, curving blade profile. Katanas were cutters of necessity, not more versatile cut and thrust swords like your typical European medieval sword.
I would be interested to see a source for the claim of geometry being determined by quality of steel. Yes, the old Japanese process (which is still practiced today for master bladesmiths by hitachi) produced very limited quantities of high carbon, relatively pure steel, but iron core, laminated blades could be made in many shapes and thicknesses (and currently are). The primary fault of the method was making very, very sharp, very hard blades that would poorly resist chipping when hitting hard objects or blocking. But oh can a 65hrc, single 10 degree bevel blade slice through stuff...
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Hi all,
I'm into HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts. Is anyone else into this in the community? It isn't LARP; we study from medieval fighting manuals and try to make it as close to the real thing as possible within the bounds of safety and legality. Loads of fun and handling a real longsword is... Amazing. Naturally, we're geared up and protected when we spar. I'm still coming off of disability so I just do footwork - no contact, yet - but I'm hoping that will change soon.
This is the video that got me into it: http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/100000003040466/inside-the-world-of-longsword-fighting.html
Any other practitioners of the art around?
Hi, I've started HEMA (AMHE in French ;P) a little over a year ago in this club: http://www.medievalcombat.fr/
First I only did some Verdadera Destreza (Spanish Rapier) but now the dynamics of the club have changed.
Currently the club is teaching at beginner level many different weapons and schools.
Longword, Sword and Buckler, Dusack and VD.
Sometimes we do a bit of other stuff, last week we did polarm and then side sword italian school.
It has gotten me back into sports so I'm happy I found this !
Regards
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Katanas? Nope. An Oakeshott Type XV or XVIII would make mincemeat of them, the swordsman's skill excepted. A longsword can simply do things that a katana physically cannot by simple virtue of it's blade geometry, hand protection, and the poor steel that the typical katana was made from, which was the real reason for it's thick, curving blade profile. Katanas were cutters of necessity, not more versatile cut and thrust swords like your typical European medieval sword.
I would be interested to see a source for the claim of geometry being determined by quality of steel. Yes, the old Japanese process (which is still practiced today for master bladesmiths by hitachi) produced very limited quantities of high carbon, relatively pure steel, but iron core, laminated blades could be made in many shapes and thicknesses (and currently are). The primary fault of the method was making very, very sharp, very hard blades that would poorly resist chipping when hitting hard objects or blocking. But oh can a 65hrc, single 10 degree bevel blade slice through stuff...
But there's no true merit in any superiority determination of any sword technology, because we've got guns..
That said, I've seen that in a real fight to the death, which is what swords used to do, kill people, it doesn't matter who's sword holds an edge better, or can block slightly better..
Because the fight is going to be over in the 15-20 minutes you tire out, and in the end, one slip, and it's over, so unless alleged crappy sword can't hold an edge, and will be completely blunted in that time, it will make little difference in the fight relative to skill and endurance of the user.
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First I will begin with the worst weapon, an imperfect and insufficient weapon, and not worth the speaking of, but now being highly esteemed, therefore not to be unremembered. That is, the single rapier, and rapier and poniard.
The single sword has the vantage against the single rapier.
The sword and dagger has the vantage against the rapier and poniard.
The sword & target has the advantage against the sword and dagger, or the rapier and poniard.
The sword and buckler has advantage against the sword and target, the sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard.
The two handed sword has the vantage against the sword and target, the sword and buckler, the sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard.
The battle axe, the halberd, the black-bill, or such like weapons of weight, appertaining unto guard or battle, are all one in fight, and have advantage against the two handed sword, the sword and buckler, the sword and target, the sword and dagger, or the rapier and poniard.
The short staff or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of perfect length, have the advantage against the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, the sword and target, and are too hard for two swords and daggers, or two rapier and poniards with gauntlets, and for the long staff and morris pike.
The long staff, morris pike, or javelin, or such like weapons above the perfect length, have advantage against all manner of weapons, the short staff, the Welch hook, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of vantage excepted, yet are too weak for two swords and daggers or two sword and bucklers, or two rapiers and poniards with gauntlets, because they are too long to thrust, strike, and turn speedily. And by reason of the large distance, one of the sword and dagger-men will get behind him.
The Welch hook or forest bill, has advantage against all manner of weapons whatsoever.
That was published in 1599, so it must be true!
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Generally, the weapon that can reach out and effectively touch you from a longer range has the advantage. So yes, pole arms do possess advantages over swords, unless the swordsman gets inside the pole arms range. We train in medieval dagger fighting, and it's amazing how simply stepping a foot closer towards your opponent often renders his blade less than effective, if not downright ineffective.
As far as the katana goes, Japan could produce small amounts of very high quality steel. However, she couldn't mass produce it. Remember, she's an island nation with poor natural resources, an issue which would plague her in 20th Century warfare. Most Japanese weapons were of serviceable though hardly high quality steel. The incessant hammering and folding was necessary to eliminate carbon and slag to a manageable level, something that wasn't nearly as critical in European steels, some (though certainly not all) of which were actually crucible steels as far back as the Viking Age. Indeed, what crucible steel the Europeans couldn't make themselves, they typically imported from Persia and India all through the Middle Ages. I'm not saying that katanas would instantly shatter, but that was a concern, as the almost ritualistic care that katanas received indicates. Indeed, the very way they were wielded was arguably meant to reduce damage. The very triangular thick back of the blade likewise imparted stability and stiffness to what may have been lukewarm quality metal.
Why were they curved? Very likely as a result of the quenching process, the intense heat transfer imparting the curve via dissimilar cooling. Deliberately making a curved sword adapted the smith's task to the usually poorer quality steel which had a natural tendency to curve, so why fight Mother Nature? Adapt to her whims. This created a superbly light, fast sword but one with certain inherent limitations.
None of this is meant to belittle the katana. However, an almost cultish myth has grown up which states that the katana was simply the best sword ever made. Nope, not hardly. It was an immensely capable cutter of fabric, flesh and light cloth armors. It could NOT cut through steel armors at all, as a general rule. However, the average European longsword could cut the exact same materials in an unsharpened state. Trust me, I've tried it. An unsharpened longsword can easily cut, and in tests have cut right through thick long bones. Part of this is the swordsman's skill, yes, but a large part is the blade geometry. Cruciform swords simply possess more leverage and "blade presence," in general, than katanas.
As far as thrusting goes, there is no comparison. The katana's curved blade makes accurate thrusting difficult. It can thrust, just not particularly well. The longsword's tip, however, is deadly. Check out an Oakeshott Type XVII and it's intended use and you'll see what I mean. While rare, there are anecdotal claims of longswords thrusting through actual plate armor. I suspect this was defective armor or the result of some freak occurrence as plate could generally not be thrusted through by swords, but it apparently did happen (RARELY!). I doubt a katana could do that, and the few times the katana met Spanish or Portuguese plate as well as longswords, well, the samurai didn't come off terribly well.
The bottom line was that the longsword was a "reach out and touch you," weapon that in the hands of a trained user (think Talhoffer, Lichtenauer, Fiori) was just as nimble as the katana. It could thrust better, and weighed maybe an ounce or two more. Plus, it had supremely better hand defenses,and could be half sworded - try that with a katana. Finally, every part of the longsword is a fighting surface, including the crossguard and the pommel. Every wonder where the word, "pummel," comes from? Some believe it descended from the pommel, which was a striking and bashing weapon of it's own. I've taken a few pommel strikes in practice and even a quarter speed or less, they WILL be flt. Katanas can't do pommel strikes since they don't possess pommels.
Decker, that looks like a great club! I'm going to my first competition in November in our beginner's group. I"ll likely get my head handed to me but I'm going to try!
Bob
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Kitana is superior to european swords if you consider how swords were most often used..
The curve is designed specifically to increase slicing/ cut-through ability.. If you swung any European blade, it won't cut deeply because they're typically not curved. They've tested this on numerous documentaries comparing kitanas to straight blades.
As far as steel armor.. the only people who had steel armor/ could afford it, Never actually fought much.. So to say that is what makes a sword good, it's a corner case at best..
Whereas, Kitanas were designed to cut through PEOPLE, regular people, the most commonly occurring enemy in the olden days..
Now, towards thrusting.. A person mastering the kitana would be just as accurate using a thrust or a lunge as a person who has mastered a straight blade.
There's absolutely no vantage point to say, a kitana can not be thrusted as accurately.
Now onto defense.. In a real sword fight, not play sword fights/ sparring, it ends FAST.. first swipe, and you're pretty much dead from there..
Defense is secondary to engagement and zoning/spacing.
Which is why any sword , even if conceivably better for defense, would see limited advantage in a fight to the death.
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Or put a different way with a modern analogy, your argument seems to be that armor piercing ammo is superior in combat to hollow point rounds because hollow points can't pierce armor.
I appreciate your zeal, but I'm not sure some of your conclusions are historically accurate regarding Japanese blade construction. Admittedly, I would fail to provide sources, as most of what I understand is passed second hand from modern master bladesmiths through a contact here in the states. But, yes, while some billet will naturally curve, most of the time the curve was intentionally set during the clay tempering process, and was not a necessity due to materials limitations. Indeed, early tachi were often straight.
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What I like about Historical European Martial Arts is that it is linked to european history and culture, which is something I relate to being european and a history buff.
I never felt too connected to asian history or asian ancient culture, which gave a certain abstraction feel to asian martial arts which I practiced before (judo and taekwondo)...
I never was drawn to modern (olympic) fencing because it seems a bit too abstract, away from real combat.
I'm no saying it should work for every westerner, I'm saying that I had problems finding a sport, and was happily surprised that HEMA worked for me because it was linked to other things I like.
Peace!
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What I like about Historical European Martial Arts is that it is linked to european history and culture, which is something I relate to being european and a history buff.
I never felt too connected to asian history or asian ancient culture, which gave a certain abstraction feel to asian martial arts which I practiced before (judo and taekwondo)...
I never was drawn to modern (olympic) fencing because it seems a bit too abstract, away from real combat.
I'm no saying it should work for every westerner, I'm saying that I had problems finding a sport, and was happily surprised that HEMA worked for me because it was linked to other things I like.
Peace!
Have you tried being American and just purchasing a gun ? No more thoughts of if or maybe... Gun is the solution.
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What I like about Historical European Martial Arts is that it is linked to european history and culture, which is something I relate to being european and a history buff.
I never felt too connected to asian history or asian ancient culture, which gave a certain abstraction feel to asian martial arts which I practiced before (judo and taekwondo)...
I never was drawn to modern (olympic) fencing because it seems a bit too abstract, away from real combat.
I'm no saying it should work for every westerner, I'm saying that I had problems finding a sport, and was happily surprised that HEMA worked for me because it was linked to other things I like.
Peace!
Have you tried being American and just purchasing a gun ? No more thoughts of if or maybe... Gun is the solution.
:p
I'm also American by my father, though I've lived most of my life in France.
I have books about old west guns, I like them a lot, but I havn't tried going to the shooting range yet.
I know guys that bought old revolvers for the shooting range because apparently in France you have less paperwork to do to own them.
I feel more connected to old west guns again because I can link that to things like history.
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The curve is designed specifically to increase slicing/ cut-through ability.. If you swung any European blade, it won't cut deeply because they're typically not curved. They've tested this on numerous documentaries comparing kitanas to straight blade
s.
Mass matters. When the target meets the point of percussion of a longsword, the longsword can cut just as deeply, and again, with an unsharpened blade. Also, many longswords do possess subtly curved blades. They are NOT all straight bladed. I'd refer you to the Oakeshott Typology to look at common Medieval blade forms, and yes, there are curved longswords.
As far as steel armor.. the only people who had steel armor/ could afford it, Never actually fought much.. So to say that is what makes a sword good, it's a corner case at best..
Not necessarily. If you look at the Landsknechts, for example, they very often fought in at least partial plate. It was required, depending upon the company. Also, you average man at arms most definitely accumulated plate in bits and pieces as his career went on. As the Medieval period transitioned int he early Renaissance, even footsoldiers and archers began acquiring at least chest plates. Lords began realizing that well trained soldiers were a valuable commodity, and of they could afford, began armoring their troops to at least some extent.
Or put a different way with a modern analogy, your argument seems to be that armor piercing ammo is superior in combat to hollow point rounds because hollow points can't pierce armor.
That all depends upon what you want the hollow point to do. Is it all about penetration, or about fragmentation? In the case of swords, European or Asian, cutting through hardened leather, a jupon, or a jack was not easy. Cloth defenses were remarkably capable no matter the blade type. However, if it's about having as many ways to kill your opponent as possible, then the thrusting abilities of the longsword give you another advantage. That, and the fact that it's longer than the typical katana means that it can kill you from several feet away. Ask me how I know, he types, rubbing the bruises from practice...