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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 09:07:32

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 09:07:32

Check it, dudes:
5-6mm travel
light springs
actuation point @ around 1mm with prominent "bump" in resistance near the top of the key press.

It might work better with heavier springs, but the key here is an actuation point right near the top. Something that takes only a "tap" to register a keypress, but still has 4mm or so before bottoming out.

I know that this is theoretically impossible with cherry's design, but couldn't they be changed? no doubt the switch would be "taller", but I don't think it would affect the feel negatively. There's got to be a way!

I've been fooling around with 4.5g weights on my cherry brown keys, and I love the response (that's what spurred this idea). They feel much lighter, and the weights make the tactile bump more noticeable. When I'm typing on them, it sort of "rolls" with the movements of my hands. It's pretty cool.

Any thoughts? Keep in mind I'm 'new' to this keyboard crowd, so if my ideas seem half-baked, it's probably because they are.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 15 December 2009, 11:07:48

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142570

Check it, dudes:
5-6mm travel
light springs
actuation point @ around 1mm with prominent "bump" in resistance near the top of the key press.

It might work better with heavier springs, but the key here is an actuation point right near the top. Something that takes only a "tap" to register a keypress, but still has 4mm or so before bottoming out.

I know that this is theoretically impossible with cherry's design, but couldn't they be changed? no doubt the switch would be "taller", but I don't think it would affect the feel negatively. There's got to be a way!

I've been fooling around with 4.5g weights on my cherry brown keys, and I love the response (that's what spurred this idea). They feel much lighter, and the weights make the tactile bump more noticeable. When I'm typing on them, it sort of "rolls" with the movements of my hands. It's pretty cool.

Any thoughts? Keep in mind I'm 'new' to this keyboard crowd, so if my ideas seem half-baked, it's probably because they are.

How you you weight a cherry brown key without messing up the typing surface?  Maybe attach some putty to the underside of the keycap?

Dell AT101W has actuation point near the top of the switch, but the actuation force is much higher than the 45gram of cherry browns... If I recall correctly they are 70 grams.

Of topic by the way, now I like my MX8100 again.  It turns out if I position the keyboard just perfectly at the right height, with a wrist rest about 1.5 inches from the lip of the keyboard, all of the keys actuate well 100% of the time.  It's not tolerant to odd angle typing.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 15 December 2009, 11:17:27

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142570

Check it, dudes:
5-6mm travel
light springs
actuation point @ around 1mm with prominent "bump" in resistance near the top of the key press.

Sounds good to me, I don't know why there aren't switches like that. Maybe there are?

Although long travel avoids the need to bottom out, ideally some way of cushioning the impact when it did happen would be another good feature. I've mentioned before (in jest) the idea of a rising rate linkage, but that wouldn't be practical. Other ways would be a rising-rate spring (very practical and inexpensive), or a Nike Air type bubble at the end of travel.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: leos on Tue, 15 December 2009, 12:34:10

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142570

Check it, dudes:
5-6mm travel
light springs
actuation point @ around 1mm with prominent "bump" in resistance near the top of the key press.

It might work better with heavier springs, but the key here is an actuation point right near the top. Something that takes only a "tap" to register a keypress, but still has 4mm or so before bottoming out.

I know that this is theoretically impossible with cherry's design, but couldn't they be changed? no doubt the switch would be "taller", but I don't think it would affect the feel negatively. There's got to be a way!

I've been fooling around with 4.5g weights on my cherry brown keys, and I love the response (that's what spurred this idea). They feel much lighter, and the weights make the tactile bump more noticeable. When I'm typing on them, it sort of "rolls" with the movements of my hands. It's pretty cool.

Any thoughts? Keep in mind I'm 'new' to this keyboard crowd, so if my ideas seem half-baked, it's probably because they are.

this oldie has a 6mm key travel micron_lapi (http://www.forex-trader.com/pdf/Micron_Laptop_Description.pdf)

you can ask if this company wanna produce for you a ruber dome with a 6mm travellink (http://www.rurgmbh.de/html/ik_pcb_6.html)

also read this: MEASUREMENT OF IMPEDANCE CHARACTERISTICS
OF COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS (http://med.ee.nd.edu/MED7/med99/papers/MED019.pdf)

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 13:10:37

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142570

Check it, dudes:
5-6mm travel
light springs
actuation point @ around 1mm with prominent "bump" in resistance near the top of the key press.

It might work better with heavier springs, but the key here is an actuation point right near the top. Something that takes only a "tap" to register a keypress, but still has 4mm or so before bottoming out.

The top with switches where all the force is concentrated at the top is that you tend to bottom out quite easily. You seem to have got around this by speccing a longer travel, but then what's the point of that? Bottoming out isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just not conducive to quick typing. The same is true though of a switch with long travel. At the end of the day, you're better off with a switch whose force builds up gradually, like a Blue Cherry or Buckling Spring. That way you can train yourself to feel when they are actuating and therefore not bottom out on them.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: leos on Tue, 15 December 2009, 13:22:24

Quote from: ripster;142618

I wonder if I could build one of these out of Legos?

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6445&stc=1&d=1260903325)

why build one of legos if you can stole....ahhhh have/borrow one from IKEA. They use those mashines to promote their Chairs in every shop. At least here in germany.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 14:31:14

That sounds like a pretty serious test to me!

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 15 December 2009, 15:46:22

Quote from: leos;142615

also read this: MEASUREMENT OF IMPEDANCE CHARACTERISTICS
OF COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS (http://med.ee.nd.edu/MED7/med99/papers/MED019.pdf)

Good article!:thumb:

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 17:10:51

Quote from: elbowglue;142604

How you you weight a cherry brown key without messing up the typing surface?  Maybe attach some putty to the underside of the keycap?

I jerry-rigged this thing last night. I used the 4.5g weights that come with a logitech mouse, hotglued them to a cap, then glued a few small keytops from my G86. I really love the feel. When you're typing quickly, they get into this "roll" motion that I've never felt in a keyboard before.

I'd like to make something that would work with an entire board.

The browns are light switches anyway, but I can get these weighted ones to fully actuate with just a gentle 'tap' (they have momentum now!), while the non-weighted ones take a bit more of a "pressing down" motion.

oh, here's an example. I know it looks like crap, it was just an experiment.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6448&stc=1&d=1260918685)

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 17:18:12

Quote from: leos;142615

this oldie has a 6mm key travel micron_lapi (http://www.forex-trader.com/pdf/Micron_Laptop_Description.pdf)

you can ask if this company wanna produce for you a ruber dome with a 6mm travellink (http://www.rurgmbh.de/html/ik_pcb_6.html)

also read this: MEASUREMENT OF IMPEDANCE CHARACTERISTICS
OF COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS (http://med.ee.nd.edu/MED7/med99/papers/MED019.pdf)

Wow, great post.
I want to pick up one of those notebooks now... 6mm travel sounds really unique for (i'm assuming) a scissor switch

Not really into rubber domes, they would actuate at the bottom of the stroke, I'm thinking of something that actuates right at the top, then has lots of travel before bottoming out.

also, that's a kickass PDF find. Reading it now. I should look for some stuff like that in my school's academic library :)

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 17:28:55

Quote from: ch_123;142624

The top with switches where all the force is concentrated at the top is that you tend to bottom out quite easily. You seem to have got around this by speccing a longer travel, but then what's the point of that? Bottoming out isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just not conducive to quick typing. The same is true though of a switch with long travel. At the end of the day, you're better off with a switch whose force builds up gradually, like a Blue Cherry or Buckling Spring. That way you can train yourself to feel when they are actuating and therefore not bottom out on them.

Since I got my spacesaver, I've seriously increased the accuracy and speed of my typing. It's pretty miraculous. Yeah, bottoming out is not a bad thing, but IMHO it impedes ergonomics. For instance, I love typing on scissor switches (because of the short travel to actuation) but my hands get really tired after all that impact.

What I'm thinking is blue cherry switches with lighter, longer springs (along with more travel) would be absolutely perfect. I don't think that's moddable, though. I'd have to design and build an entirely new switch with a taller housing, longer stem, and new springs.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: leos on Tue, 15 December 2009, 18:07:20

i found this on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.de/Micron-Transport-GX3-1-7GHz-512MB-CDRW-14-Parts_W0QQitemZ370305137863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLaptops_Nov05?hash=item5637e7fcc7). maybe one guy in us buy this and then can tell us about this incredible 6mm keys depress.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 18:28:12

Quote from: leos;142748

i found this on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.de/Micron-Transport-GX3-1-7GHz-512MB-CDRW-14-Parts_W0QQitemZ370305137863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLaptops_Nov05?hash=item5637e7fcc7). maybe one guy in us buy this and then can tell us about this incredible 6mm keys depress.

Has anyone here tried these keyboards? I'd friggin' pick it up right now if it weren't for the $80 shipping to US.

Sigh, I need to get out more

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: leos on Tue, 15 December 2009, 18:34:51

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142735

also, that's a kickass PDF find. Reading it now. I should look for some stuff like that in my school's academic library :)

ok if you need stuff you ll take....

Measurement of Stiffness and
Damping Characteristics of
Computer Keyboard Keys (http://www.eng.mu.edu/nagurka/NagurkaMarklin_Measurement%20of%20Stiffness%20and%20Damping%20Characteristics_JDMSC.pdf)

and dont forget Fatigue

1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2245952/)

2 (http://www.ksoem.org/upload/data/1012990403.pdf)

3 (http://eadc.engr.wisc.edu/Web_Documents/p160.pdf)

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 19:40:43

Quote from: leos;142757

ok if you need stuff you ll take....

Measurement of Stiffness and
Damping Characteristics of
Computer Keyboard Keys (http://www.eng.mu.edu/nagurka/NagurkaMarklin_Measurement%20of%20Stiffness%20and%20Damping%20Characteristics_JDMSC.pdf)

and dont forget Fatigue

1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2245952/)

2 (http://www.ksoem.org/upload/data/1012990403.pdf)

3 (http://eadc.engr.wisc.edu/Web_Documents/p160.pdf)

domo arigato, keyboardo-san

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: skriefal on Tue, 15 December 2009, 20:00:21

That laptop is $24 to US, not $80.  See eBay US, here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370305137863&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907.m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D370305137863%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1).

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: hyperlinked on Tue, 15 December 2009, 20:06:09

Quote from: ripster;142618

I wonder if I could build one of these out of Legos?

I think you'll need to get some more Yodas first.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: ak_nala on Wed, 16 December 2009, 01:50:52

Quote from: Rajagra;142606

Although long travel avoids the need to bottom out, ideally some way of cushioning the impact when it did happen would be another good feature. I've mentioned before (in jest) the idea of a rising rate linkage, but that wouldn't be practical. Other ways would be a rising-rate spring (very practical and inexpensive), or a Nike Air type bubble at the end of travel.

Or, a short, somewhat stiffer spring in the keycap to cushion the bottoming out. As I mentioned in this thread (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7963&), Olympia put springs in their manual typewriter key tops back in the 50's and 60's for just this purpose.

Something like that might work here as well - a short spring at say 2-4 times the relative stiffness to the main switch spring should help eliminate any stresses to bottoming out.

It would have two added benefits as well - tactile feedback on switch end-of-travel, but before key end-of travel - and a bit of extra push back on your finger when releasing the key under those circumstances.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 16 December 2009, 06:48:36

Quote from: ak_nala;142816

Or, a short, somewhat stiffer spring in the keycap to cushion the bottoming out. As I mentioned in this thread (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7963&), Olympia put springs in their manual typewriter key tops back in the 50's and 60's for just this purpose.

Same idea in Alps switches with rubber dampers.

I'd see increased key travel as a bit of a problem - it influences height, and that is a factor in ergonomics. Historically people always tried to reduce height while keeping key travel as long as possible.

While we are at switch design ideas, I wonder whether one could combine the OKI style "clicky spring" mechanism with the "lever spring" idea used in Cherry MYs in order to obtain both tactility and a low actuation force.

Title: I would like to see a switch like this:
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Thu, 17 December 2009, 11:35:06

I would hope that a few extra mm of height wouldn't make much of a difference (to enthusiasts, anyhow). Most people use wrist rests anyway. It does go way against current market trends though, when slim=money in the bank.

Plus, the board could be made a bit slimmer with plate-mounted switches + a thin PCB and top-mounted controller. Someone here (with money, not me) should convince those Tiawanese cherry-clone making dudes (strongman?) to produce a prototype switch with 6-7mm travel and 1.5mm actuation point.

I'm thinking it would work well with linear too, and a spring designed with a steep resistance curve.

Once again, excuse me if my terminology is a bit off. I'm still learning :D

I still seriously think that all this research pointing to 4mm being "just right" is a little short-sighted. People have different preferences