Post by: mps on Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:02:06
Thanks,
Mike
Post by: cryptokey on Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:09:20
Post by: chyros on Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:09:57
Post by: rxc92 on Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:50:44
Post by: quasistellar on Fri, 15 April 2016, 12:23:25
Post by: CryHam on Fri, 15 April 2016, 13:50:41
I'm a fan of DIY, if you want to have something done right, you have to do it yourself, is my motto since I was a kid.
The stuff that's being sold is just the stupid garbage that still brings profit (if you don't believe see e.g. QWERTY layout since 1873, cool comic about it here (http://www.dvzine.org/zine/)).
Post by: klennkellon on Fri, 15 April 2016, 15:15:11
Post by: iLLucionist on Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:16:53
After 50 years of programming on a keyboard, my fingers have had it. I can't use my Unicomp without my knuckles hurting (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70572.msg1703150#msg1703150 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70572.msg1703150#msg1703150)), and I even feel it occasionally with my Cherry Browns. Any recommendations for a keyboard that is "light on the fingers"?
Thanks,
Mike
Too bad man! What do you actually feel? Only the knuckles? No wrist?
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:18:52
But most of all, with Topre and linear switches -- and sometimes when using Cherry MX brown because it has such low tactile feedback -- the actuation point does not always coincide with any noticeable tactile feedback and therefore you will tend to overshoot when typing on these switches.
I would recommend that you try Cherry MX Blue with O-rings. O-rings to remove "clack" sound on bottoming out and also to reduce key travel. You would get tactile and auditory feedback that you are used to but the spring is much lighter. The tactile feedback is also much sharper than Cherry MX Brown. The very best would be a vintage keyboard, actually ... as newer switches are a bit scratchy.
Also, that you try out a Kinesis Advantage or a Maltron. Not just because of wrist angle columnar layout but also because the Key travel vector better coincides with the vector of the finger's movement -- there is less shearing force when you press a key.
BTW, I once had similar problems with pain in the fingers. I had been using stiff rubber dome keyboards at work and too small mice with hard buttons. I changed to (almost) vertical "ergonomic" mice with light buttons and a keyboard at work with Cherry MX Brown. That worked. Now the tactile bumps on that keyboards' switches are almost worn out - it feels like a keyboard with Cherry MX Red ...
Post by: iLLucionist on Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:30:13
Post by: robbles on Fri, 15 April 2016, 18:07:16
You could also try a Realforce variable weight keyboard, which has a 30 to 45 gram actuation. https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0 (https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0)
Sorry to hear about your knuckles!
Post by: chyros on Fri, 15 April 2016, 19:36:00
Post by: Keycap on Fri, 15 April 2016, 19:41:10
Post by: klennkellon on Fri, 15 April 2016, 22:02:26
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.Deskauthority says actuation is 60g
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Matias_switch
Post by: KRKS on Sat, 16 April 2016, 01:52:39
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.
35g batch was limited to the OpenSteno poject, the ones on the market are 60g
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 16 April 2016, 04:09:45
After 50 years of programming on a keyboard, my fingers have had it. I can't use my Unicomp without my knuckles hurtingHi mps. Welcome to Geekhack! Hope you enjoy your stay, and I hope your pain improves.
First, I have a general recommendation regardless of keyboard, which might or might not apply to you:
See if you can find a way to type with your elbows, forearms, wrists, and palms “floating” in the air, not resting on any surface. If doing so puts strain on your shoulders or upper arm muscles, try to bring the keyboard closer to your body until you can type with your upper arms hanging loosely at your sides with your back and shoulders relaxed, and tilt the keyboard such that the top surface is parallel to your forearms. If you aren’t resting your arms on an armrest/table/palmrest, then when you type any impact shock can be transferred from your fingers to the strong muscles in your upper arms. By contrast, if you are using a palmrest, then your hand will be static, leaving all shock to be absorbed in your finger joints.
As a corollary, try to type with an airy, springy, “dancing” style. Instead of mashing your fingers down with every keystroke, try to just use the minimum force you can to get past the click point, but no more. A Model M is actually pretty good for this, because the spring buckling is very dramatically tactile and loud. The biggest source of shock to the finger joints is from hitting the bottom of the stroke with a hard impact, rather than from the rest of the keystroke. If the keys were just too hard to press, but you were typing without mashing them more than necessary, I suspect you’d be feeling tired rather than in pain. [Hard to be sure about this without watching you type directly.]
It probably goes without saying, but getting good sleep, exercise, and diet, avoiding chronic anxiety, and taking a break from the computer to walk around a bit every hour or so, with shorter breaks from continuous typing a few times an hour, can also help a lot.
Second, I echo Findecanor’s suggestion to try a split keyboard with some hand separation and/or aggressive tenting, such as a Matias ErgoPro (if you want something easy to learn) or a Kinesis Advantage. Reducing the amount of wrist pronation required to type makes a big improvement to typing comfort, because it gives you a lot more slack to work with in all of the rest of your posture choices. A standard keyboard is not very well designed to match the human body, and forces you to make some trade-off about where to distribute static strain between your shoulders, your arms, or your wrists. A well designed split keyboard lets you reduce the overall amount of static strain quite considerably.
Third, as to your specific comment about typing on a Unicomp being too much, note that IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp Model Ms are quite stiff switches. Many other switches use dramatically less force. I agree with Chyros that SMK clicky switches are really nice (these are sometimes called “Monterey” switches because they were used on a particular keyboard sold by Monterey). If you want a standard one-piece keyboard, they might be a good alternative to a Model M for you. They’re clicky enough to feel familiar to a Model M user, but take substantially less work to press, which should help you to type lightly.
A Model F is also notably less stiff than a Model M (though still stiffer than other alternatives), if you decide you can’t give buckling springs up.
Other possible alternatives include clicky “space invader” switches from a mid-1990s NMB RightTouch keyboard, clicky Alps, or even (though not my favorite) clicky blue Cherry MX switches. MX blue switches are much less tactile than a Model M, but take substantially less force to actuate.
If you have RSI or similar, definitely a tactile switch is not the way to go (click/bump provides a slight increase in pressure as it happens), so linears are a good choice.Speaking for myself, I can’t agree with this advice, though the scientific literature is pretty spotty on this general subject, so this is more of a personal intuition than a validated general fact.
Tactile switches are a big help for typing lightly, because they give you a direct signal when you’ve actuated the switch, which reduces finger force at bottom-out.
If you get a linear switch, I recommend something with a high actuation point and a beeper for direct audio feedback.
Post by: mps on Sat, 16 April 2016, 14:06:12
Too bad man! What do you actually feel? Only the knuckles? No wrist?Yes, the knuckles are what really hurt, which I suspect it is an incipient arthritis thing. Occasionally I have minor wrist soreness, for which I should probably pay more attention to my ergonomics, but really it is the big knuckle of each finger, which I'm guessing is more of a force thing.
Quote from: Findecanor
Also, that you try out a Kinesis Advantage or a Maltron. Not just because of wrist angle columnar layout but also because the Key travel vector better coincides with the vector of the finger's movement -- there is less shearing force when you press a key.This sounds like a great idea. I used a Microsoft natural keyboard in the '90s and even though my knuckles weren't a problem then, I really enjoyed the more natural movement of typing on it.
Quote from: Findecanor
BTW, I once had similar problems with pain in the fingers. I had been using stiff rubber dome keyboards at work and too small mice with hard buttons. I changed to (almost) vertical "ergonomic" mice with light buttons and a keyboard at work with Cherry MX Brown. That worked. Now the tactile bumps on that keyboards' switches are almost worn out - it feels like a keyboard with Cherry MX Red ...Great observation. My "left-click finger" knuckle used to hurt a lot, but after switching to a SteelSeries sensei, that has stopped. When I observe my mouse press, I notice it is so easy to press that I only use the last knuckle (near the tip) on my index finger, so that there is very little pressure on the middle knuckle.
Quote from: robbles
Gateron Clears are a 35g linear switch, and are the lightest MX switch that is easy to get as far as I know. Massdrop has a buy on them currently for a good price.I will investigate these.
You could also try a Realforce variable weight keyboard, which has a 30 to 45 gram actuation. https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0
Sorry to hear about your knuckles!
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:25:52
Too bad man! What do you actually feel? Only the knuckles? No wrist?Yes, the knuckles are what really hurt, which I suspect it is an incipient arthritis thing. Occasionally I have minor wrist soreness, for which I should probably pay more attention to my ergonomics, but really it is the big knuckle of each finger, which I'm guessing is more of a force thing.
My mother suffers from arthritis as well and has been complaining for years about keyboards. Especially the apple aluminum wireless one. So I bought here a HHKB (Topre) because it is case mounted and dome so it is REALLY soft on the knuckles. Because it is so soft, the keyboard absorbs almost all force and gives little back to your fingers. She doesn't have any symptoms anymore with that keyboard.
Post by: mps on Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:15:47
My mother suffers from arthritis as well and has been complaining for years about keyboards. Especially the apple aluminum wireless one. So I bought here a HHKB (Topre) because it is case mounted and dome so it is REALLY soft on the knuckles. Because it is so soft, the keyboard absorbs almost all force and gives little back to your fingers. She doesn't have any symptoms anymore with that keyboard.Thanks, one of my long-time co-workers swears by the HHKB, but his recommendation hasn't been as "focused on knuckles" as yours :), so this is great information.
Mike
Post by: dante on Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:23:13
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.
I bought a V80MTS w/ Matias Linears; I have to say I was shocked that at 35g I didn't accidentally actuate the keys at all. It was a pretty good experience.
HOWEVER ... forget thinking that just because this is dampened that it's going to be quiet because the keycaps rattle like a SoaB.
You would be better off with Gateron Clears or Reds and use some nice squishy o-rings.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:39:27
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.
I bought a V80MTS w/ Matias Linears; I have to say I was shocked that at 35g I didn't accidentally actuate the keys at all. It was a pretty good experience.
HOWEVER ... forget thinking that just because this is dampened that it's going to be quiet because the keycaps rattle like a SoaB.
You would be better off with Gateron Clears or Reds and use some nice squishy o-rings.
Rattle rattle... I hate rattle. Is it that bad?
Post by: Crossfire on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:09:33
Post by: dante on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:28:34
Rattle rattle... I hate rattle. Is it that bad?
They are annoying as ****. Are you like me and go bat **** crazy when you tap on your space bar from left to right and it goes tick-tick-tick-tick?
If so the rattle will drive you crazy.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:52:30
What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)
How do you lube them? WHAT do you lube actually? Does it need desoldering?
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:53:06
Rattle rattle... I hate rattle. Is it that bad?
They are annoying as ****. Are you like me and go bat **** crazy when you tap on your space bar from left to right and it goes tick-tick-tick-tick?
If so the rattle will drive you crazy.
Yeah sounds like instant rage for me. So I'll probably stay away from matias then..
Post by: Crossfire on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:59:52
If the switches are plate mounted, then yes. If they're soldered on pcb directly, then they can be opened too - for linear switches I use thin lube and it works great. I lube the stem and bottom housing with thin and springs with thick to reduce/remove potential ping/ring. Take a look at tutorials on how to proper lube mx switches and then take some hours of your time to accomplish that. But, don't forget to test the lubed switch afterwards...some need further adjustments to be flawless ;)What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)
How do you lube them? WHAT do you lube actually? Does it need desoldering?
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:02:06
If the switches are plate mounted, then yes. If they're soldered on pcb directly, then they can be opened too - for linear switches I use thin lube and it works great. I lube the stem and bottom housing with thin and springs with thick to reduce/remove potential ping/ring. Take a look at tutorials on how to proper lube mx switches and then take some hours of your time to accomplish that. But, don't forget to test the lubed switch afterwards...some need further adjustments to be flawless ;)What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)
How do you lube them? WHAT do you lube actually? Does it need desoldering?
Thanks! I'm gonna build my own sick ass gaming rig this summer (hopefully). So a nice lubed blacks board may come in handy.
Post by: Crossfire on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:07:35
I'll test how mx blacks from 97' (non vintage) perform lubed with 55g's against their vintage counterpart soon. Should be interesting but I doubt they'll be more smoother...they aren't allowed to be haha
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:08:29
Sounds like a great project! What are you planning on using beside lubed mx blacks?
I'll test how mx blacks from 97' (non vintage) perform lubed with 55g's against their vintage counterpart soon. Should be interesting but I doubt they'll be more smoother...they aren't allowed to be haha
Can vintage blacks actually be bought somewhere?
Post by: Crossfire on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:14:39
The best bet would be a vintage cherry board, usually yellowed and dirty...I had my fair share of luck when I've came across one - g80-1000had. Was just looking to try mx blacks, but then I was mesmerized instantly..how can a such a "crappy & yellow" board have so dope switches :)
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:18:07
They can but you'll never really know for sure until you try them.
The best bet would be a vintage cherry board, usually yellowed and dirty...I had my fair share of luck when I've came across one - g80-1000had. Was just looking to try mx blacks, but then I was mesmerized instantly..how can a such a "crappy & yellow" board have so dope switches :)
So basically you buy an old crummy board because you know it must be them old blacks and then you desolder and solder into a new board?
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:18:15
Can vintage blacks actually be bought somewhere?Sure, just cruise ebay and look out for keyboards with Cherry-looking keycaps and XT or AT layout.
Then you can use such a keyboard as-is, or desolder its switches and swap them into whatever other keyboard you like.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:20:19
Can vintage blacks actually be bought somewhere?Sure, just cruise ebay and look out for keyboards with Cherry-looking keycaps and XT or AT layout.
Then you can use such a keyboard as-is, or desolder its switches and swap them into whatever other keyboard you like.
cool, great to know that
Post by: Crossfire on Sun, 17 April 2016, 01:23:11
I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)
Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:09:25
Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;)
I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)
Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.
How you like em vintages? Better than new ones, personally?
Post by: absyrd on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:17:09
So I don't have a light touch, but I need a light landing.
Post by: Crossfire on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:28:25
They're more refined and smoother than new blacks. Pm me if you want a sample of each ;) unlubed and with stock springs.Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;)
I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)
Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.
How you like em vintages? Better than new ones, personally?
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:30:24
They're more refined and smoother than new blacks. Pm me if you want a sample of each ;) unlubed and with stock springs.Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;)
I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)
Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.
How you like em vintages? Better than new ones, personally?
Sounds interesting... I've never touched vintage blacks.
Post by: Crossfire on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:33:02
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:34:06
With 55g's it's godlike :)
Wait... 55g isn't stock? Default stock is 62g?
Post by: Crossfire on Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:43:40
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:18:19
I think stock is more between 65-70g...
Mmm... now I want blacks.
Picture my perfect (gaming) blacks board:
- vintage blacks
- 55g springs
- stems lubed
- o-rings
- thick pbt caps
Mmmmmm...
Post by: Crossfire on Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:24:35
End game...period ;)
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:25:26
...in aluminium case.
End game...period ;)
Yeah end game... and then I go back to Topre again for some time :P
It'll never end with me :P
Post by: Crossfire on Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:37:56
Post by: Macsmasher on Sun, 17 April 2016, 23:06:46
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 03:45:25
Same with me...topre, mx, topre, mx...it never ends, hot damn :)
Oh well... at least we have the luxury of having both :D
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 03:47:01
As an elderly coder myself (59), I'll share my experience. I had been using MX Browns for 3 - 4 years. Just like you, at the end of the day my knuckles ached. I bought a RF 87U variable and haven't had any issues with sore knuckles. I mean the pain was gone completely. If you're a touch typist, you won't notice the variable key weighting. It just feels 'balanced'. I also have a RF 87U 55g. It's a great board, but a bit too stiff for extended typing for me. However, if you're used to Unicomp, it may be fine for you. They're both great boards. But if I could only choose one, it would be the variable. I have since given all my Cherry boards to needy friends.
I've had the same experience. So first I but o-rings on my caps for my browns filco tkl board. Was better, but not completely. So I bought a HHKB. Though I love it, it felt a bit too mushy. Then I read up on people using clears and saying springs so heavy it is actually lighter because you can try not bottoming out. So did that. Then bought RF 87U 55g and that's best of all so far.
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:17:10
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:20:27
I've tried an 55g RF87U last week and I must say the switches are a lot better than 45g's from HHKB's. I was really impressed, didn't expect such a big difference. And like it was said before, the 55g switches don't have that mushy feeling like hhkb's have...which is odd. Lubing hhkb almost cures the mushiness, it did on my ex hhkb's. Then my fingers experienced 55g lubed vintage blacks...I really can't seem to get enough of that feeling, it's just so nice to type on...can't....stop...whew :D
With them 55g Topres, it may also well be the plate mounting opposed to the case mounting of the HHKB.
But yes... RF 87U 55g is sooo crisp mmmm
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:40:34
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:41:29
Plate mounted 45g Novatouch was horrible out of the box...I mean, knowing topre I've thought that it should be a winner with them mx stems and stuff...but the typing feeling and sound was just off...after taking them in a 4 hour lubing marathon the board finally was what it should be...on the other hand the RF was just so more refined, complete package out of the box.
What was most horrible about the experience? Was it wobbly? Or uneven feel across keys / switches?
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:52:57
What was most horrible about the experience? Was it wobbly? Or uneven feel across keys / switches?No, the reaction of switches when pressed and the sound they were making when typing...not to mention the squeky stabs...just god awful. Usually I just want a little satisfaction sound and feel-wise and there was none...literally. I took it home with me from work, put it apart, cleaned, lubed the rails and stabs...and there she was, a completely different board.
With stock caps I've even achieved that signature topre "thock" which was kind of missing previously.
Gmk's and other doubleshots just didn't sound that good, which was a bit of a surprise tbh...but it's ok, I've checked that off of my wishlist and moved forward :)
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:55:02
What was most horrible about the experience? Was it wobbly? Or uneven feel across keys / switches?No, the reaction of switches when pressed and the sound they were making when typing...not to mention the squeky stabs...just god awful. Usually I just want a little satisfaction sound and feel-wise and there was none...literally. I took it home with me from work, put it apart, cleaned, lubed the rails and stabs...and there she was, a completely different board.
With stock caps I've even achieved that signature topre "thock" which was kind of missing previously.
Gmk's and other doubleshots just didn't sound that good, which was a bit of a surprise tbh...but it's ok, I've checked that off of my wishlist and moved forward :)
Thanks for the details. Sounds like not so fine board then. Squeaky.. hmm... probably not lubed enough out of factory.
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:58:08
But it's ok, every board I buy gets special cleaning and tuning treatment first...that's obligatory for me, I want to get the best out of the single board :)
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 05:00:52
Yeah, my guess exactly...and to tell you the truth, every single hhkb I had was a squeky stab mess...but not that RF55g from my friend.
But it's ok, every board I buy gets special cleaning and tuning treatment first...that's obligatory for me, I want to get the best out of the single board :)
Do you also lube your topres? Apart from stem, I mean like sliders? What lube do you use?
I think I'm gonna silence AND lube my HHKB.. Coz... I can man!
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 05:10:00
Absolutely! I paint the switch sliders with a brush - I use krytox gpl205, but just a thin layer. I don't like to overlube the switches, then it's just wrong. It's obligatory to try the switches, how they travel in the housings...at least for me.Yeah, my guess exactly...and to tell you the truth, every single hhkb I had was a squeky stab mess...but not that RF55g from my friend.
But it's ok, every board I buy gets special cleaning and tuning treatment first...that's obligatory for me, I want to get the best out of the single board :)
Do you also lube your topres? Apart from stem, I mean like sliders? What lube do you use?
I think I'm gonna silence AND lube my HHKB.. Coz... I can man!
The stock hhkb is a loud board...that's a fact.
Yeah, hush that japanese beauty :)
Do it!
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 05:13:17
Absolutely! I paint the switch sliders with a brush - I use krytox gpl205, but just a thin layer. I don't like to overlube the switches, then it's just wrong. It's obligatory to try the switches, how they travel in the housings...at least for me.Yeah, my guess exactly...and to tell you the truth, every single hhkb I had was a squeky stab mess...but not that RF55g from my friend.
But it's ok, every board I buy gets special cleaning and tuning treatment first...that's obligatory for me, I want to get the best out of the single board :)
Do you also lube your topres? Apart from stem, I mean like sliders? What lube do you use?
I think I'm gonna silence AND lube my HHKB.. Coz... I can man!
The stock hhkb is a loud board...that's a fact.
Yeah, hush that japanese beauty :)
Do it!
How do you do that to Topre sliders? HHKB is case mounted... you gotta take out the switches like cherry?
I should probably look up some videos..
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 05:27:26
Basically you just push the sliders out of the housing and that's it. You clean the domes, leave those conical springs as they're and lube only the slider rails.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 05:53:05
Here are a few photos of my reconditioning process of the good ol' pro 1 - http://imgur.com/a/2JrqC
Basically you just push the sliders out of the housing and that's it. You clean the domes, leave those conical springs as they're and lube only the slider rails.
Cool, thanks!
EDIT: those pcs... looks like caps are dirty or is it overshoot from the cam?
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:13:05
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:14:35
Good old fasioned keyboard dirt :)
One question.. what lube did you use? And did you only lube the stems?
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:19:03
I lube only the slider rails and not the cylindrical part of the sliders.
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:24:50
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:28:06
Krytox gpl205, some get good results with Superlube 51010 oil too.
I lube only the slider rails and not the cylindrical part of the sliders.
Thanks!
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:28:27
anyone know a really really really thick lube that works well on stabilizers? i tried 205 but it just takes a few weeks before i have to re-do it, would prefer something that's a bunch thicker
I'm trying to learn about lubing... what is the advantage of really thick lube?
Post by: Crossfire on Mon, 18 April 2016, 06:31:37
Post by: Macsmasher on Mon, 18 April 2016, 14:24:42
As an elderly coder myself (59), I'll share my experience. I had been using MX Browns for 3 - 4 years. Just like you, at the end of the day my knuckles ached. I bought a RF 87U variable and haven't had any issues with sore knuckles. I mean the pain was gone completely. If you're a touch typist, you won't notice the variable key weighting. It just feels 'balanced'. I also have a RF 87U 55g. It's a great board, but a bit too stiff for extended typing for me. However, if you're used to Unicomp, it may be fine for you. They're both great boards. But if I could only choose one, it would be the variable. I have since given all my Cherry boards to needy friends.
I've had the same experience. So first I but o-rings on my caps for my browns filco tkl board. Was better, but not completely. So I bought a HHKB. Though I love it, it felt a bit too mushy. Then I read up on people using clears and saying springs so heavy it is actually lighter because you can try not bottoming out. So did that. Then bought RF 87U 55g and that's best of all so far.
I should also mentioned that I type Colemak. With the minimal finger travel, the variable is the ticket for me. If I were still qwerty, I might prefer the 55g.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 18 April 2016, 14:34:09
As an elderly coder myself (59), I'll share my experience. I had been using MX Browns for 3 - 4 years. Just like you, at the end of the day my knuckles ached. I bought a RF 87U variable and haven't had any issues with sore knuckles. I mean the pain was gone completely. If you're a touch typist, you won't notice the variable key weighting. It just feels 'balanced'. I also have a RF 87U 55g. It's a great board, but a bit too stiff for extended typing for me. However, if you're used to Unicomp, it may be fine for you. They're both great boards. But if I could only choose one, it would be the variable. I have since given all my Cherry boards to needy friends.
I've had the same experience. So first I but o-rings on my caps for my browns filco tkl board. Was better, but not completely. So I bought a HHKB. Though I love it, it felt a bit too mushy. Then I read up on people using clears and saying springs so heavy it is actually lighter because you can try not bottoming out. So did that. Then bought RF 87U 55g and that's best of all so far.
I should also mentioned that I type Colemak. With the minimal finger travel, the variable is the ticket for me. If I were still qwerty, I might prefer the 55g.
How long have you been on Colemak now? Do you think it is really better than qwerty?
Post by: Macsmasher on Mon, 18 April 2016, 20:33:57
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 19 April 2016, 08:39:46
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 08:54:02
Oh yea, alternative layouts that reduce finger travel can be a big help to reduce finger pain. Qwerty requires a lot of jumping around. This topic has been analyzed to death in the ergonomics subforum.
Has a definitive solution emerged yet? I suppose everybody is going to experience it differently..
Post by: Macsmasher on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:22:53
Oh yea, alternative layouts that reduce finger travel can be a big help to reduce finger pain. Qwerty requires a lot of jumping around. This topic has been analyzed to death in the ergonomics subforum.
Has a definitive solution emerged yet? I suppose everybody is going to experience it differently..
Don't think there is a definitive solution. I chose Colemak because it was the easiest transition from qwerty and maintained Win shortcuts for copy / cut / paste in the same place.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:31:19
Oh yea, alternative layouts that reduce finger travel can be a big help to reduce finger pain. Qwerty requires a lot of jumping around. This topic has been analyzed to death in the ergonomics subforum.
Has a definitive solution emerged yet? I suppose everybody is going to experience it differently..
Don't think there is a definitive solution. I chose Colemak because it was the easiest transition from qwerty and maintained Win shortcuts for copy / cut / paste in the same place.
I've tried dvorak, but really didn't like it for some reason. And I've REALLY tried for like a month or so.
Post by: Macsmasher on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:05:14
Oh yea, alternative layouts that reduce finger travel can be a big help to reduce finger pain. Qwerty requires a lot of jumping around. This topic has been analyzed to death in the ergonomics subforum.
Has a definitive solution emerged yet? I suppose everybody is going to experience it differently..
Don't think there is a definitive solution. I chose Colemak because it was the easiest transition from qwerty and maintained Win shortcuts for copy / cut / paste in the same place.
I've tried dvorak, but really didn't like it for some reason. And I've REALLY tried for like a month or so.
Here's an interesting site to help analyze the different keyboard layouts...
http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main
You can just type or paste samples of text strings that you typically type and it will compare the different layouts to see which is the most efficient based on what you type. If you're a coder, paste some code in the text box. It's interesting to see how bad qwerty is compared to any of the alternate layouts.
Post by: FlukE on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:08:02
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:18:09
Oh yea, alternative layouts that reduce finger travel can be a big help to reduce finger pain. Qwerty requires a lot of jumping around. This topic has been analyzed to death in the ergonomics subforum.
Has a definitive solution emerged yet? I suppose everybody is going to experience it differently..
Don't think there is a definitive solution. I chose Colemak because it was the easiest transition from qwerty and maintained Win shortcuts for copy / cut / paste in the same place.
I've tried dvorak, but really didn't like it for some reason. And I've REALLY tried for like a month or so.
Here's an interesting site to help analyze the different keyboard layouts...
http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main
You can just type or paste samples of text strings that you typically type and it will compare the different layouts to see which is the most efficient based on what you type. If you're a coder, paste some code in the text box. It's interesting to see how bad qwerty is compared to any of the alternate layouts.
Thanks, very cool!
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:18:32
I would recommend gatreon clears which come in at a very light 35g which is quite a solid amount less than the browns you said were hurting you're knuckles :)
That's even ligher than MX Reds O_o Wow.
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:38:00
1. Consider some squishy O-Rings.
2. A keyboard with PCB mounted switches (ie: no plate.)
3. ABS keycaps. Though this won't matter as much as the first two.
These three together should give an experience that is easier on your hands.
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:39:32
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:43:13
If you go with 35g Gaterons I have three suggestions if you want to preserve your hands:
1. Consider some squishy O-Rings.
2. A keyboard with PCB mounted switches (ie: no plate.)
3. ABS keycaps. Though this won't matter as much as the first two.
These three together should give an experience that is easier on your hands.
How's ABS easier on the hands? Coz it's a bit softer than PBT?
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 15:46:40
If you go with 35g Gaterons I have three suggestions if you want to preserve your hands:
1. Consider some squishy O-Rings.
2. A keyboard with PCB mounted switches (ie: no plate.)
3. ABS keycaps. Though this won't matter as much as the first two.
These three together should give an experience that is easier on your hands.
How's ABS easier on the hands? Coz it's a bit softer than PBT?
Well with my hands it is. I've heard others also say the same. But to be fair, all PBT is different.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 17:21:42
If you go with 35g Gaterons I have three suggestions if you want to preserve your hands:
1. Consider some squishy O-Rings.
2. A keyboard with PCB mounted switches (ie: no plate.)
3. ABS keycaps. Though this won't matter as much as the first two.
These three together should give an experience that is easier on your hands.
How's ABS easier on the hands? Coz it's a bit softer than PBT?
Well with my hands it is. I've heard others also say the same. But to be fair, all PBT is different.
I can imagine that. I like the feel of ABS a bit better than PBT actually, but I'm just not made for teh shine.
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 24 April 2016, 01:31:54
If you go with 35g Gaterons I have three suggestions if you want to preserve your hands:
1. Consider some squishy O-Rings.
2. A keyboard with PCB mounted switches (ie: no plate.)
3. ABS keycaps. Though this won't matter as much as the first two.
These three together should give an experience that is easier on your hands.
How's ABS easier on the hands? Coz it's a bit softer than PBT?
If you want "softer" keycaps, try POM.
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 24 April 2016, 07:54:48
nah, i have nothing against ABS. but i do think it's just absolutely horrible for the touch, especially since it wears so quickly.
99% of computer mice are made with ABS, but most of them are coated. i think the same has been done with a handful of keyboards? (rubberized coating or something)
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 24 April 2016, 09:28:09
If you look around your home, you’ll find ABS used all over the place. And who doesn’t like Legos?
For keyboard buttons, I think PBT often makes a nicer sound. But ABS is also fine. The thickness of the plastic also has a big effect on sound.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sun, 24 April 2016, 17:13:41
Oh yea, alternative layouts that reduce finger travel can be a big help to reduce finger pain. Qwerty requires a lot of jumping around. This topic has been analyzed to death in the ergonomics subforum.
Has a definitive solution emerged yet? I suppose everybody is going to experience it differently..
Don't think there is a definitive solution. I chose Colemak because it was the easiest transition from qwerty and maintained Win shortcuts for copy / cut / paste in the same place.
I was using a modified Maltron layout for awhile. Although not sure if it helped that much. My greatest hand pain is related to mouse usage. Although all this jumping around QWERTY probably does not help.