Post by: merlin64 on Fri, 15 April 2016, 12:27:44
Going into this, I had the following assumptions
1. Large logo Cherry MX Black are smoother and provides the feel people look for when finding these type of switches (due to wear, slider material, and spring weight)
2. Small logos will always be less smooth even when located on the same board as vintage blacks.
Findings:
WYSE ASCII with a manufacture date of early 1990s to mid 1990s - Most switches are of the small logo variety with 2 or less switches of the large logo variety. Smoother than current MX Blacks but some switches are smoother than Gateron Blacks, and some not as smooth. Springs felt lighter than modern blacks, but not as light as Gaterons.
WYSE PCE with manufacture dates in the mid to late 80s - Most switches are of the large logo variety with about 25% to 35% being of the small logo. These are hella smooth. Smoother than the 90s vintage blacks from the Wyse ASCII. To my surprise, sometimes the small logo was smoother than the large logo, and vice versa. I also noticed that the alphanumerics were ever the more slightly smoother than the function keys. On one board it was most noticeable on the E and I key. Makes sense I guess since they are vowels. I would say these are as smooth as Gateron Blacks and in some cases like the vowel keys I found, even smoother. Springs also felt lighter than the ASCII boards.
Type 5 Keyboard. This is a copy of a Sun Type 5 but with Cherry MX Black switches. This particular version had 2 large logo MX. I was unable to find a manufacture date but I would bet it's in the 90s. I could not tell a difference between the large logo and the small logo in terms of smoothness, stifness, etc. They were practically the same switch. This keyboard also looked barely used, I daresay it was NIB when I got it, no crud at all under the keycaps. Small or Large logo on this board felt about the same as Gateron when it came to smoothness. The spring weight was definitely heavier than the ASCII but not as heavy as modern blacks.
My new assumptions (Yes still assumptions)
1. While slider material and spring weight may all be a factor, there is no difference between new large logo blacks and new small logo blacks - from my experience at least
2. Age and Wear is the determining factor when it comes to feel.
So there are 80s Vintage Blacks, 90s Vintage Blacks, and 2000-present modern blacks (perhaps those who have blacks from 2000 can chime in and we can call them 2000 vintage blacks). 80s vintage are the most desired and most smooth, most light, etc etc.
It just so happens that 80s vintage blacks have a majority of large logos. If you find a board that has a majority of large logo blacks, I'm willing to bet that even the small logos will feel about the same.
Post by: pr0ximity on Fri, 15 April 2016, 21:46:46
Has anyone compared NIB vintage MX Blacks to NIB modern MX Blacks?
Post by: klennkellon on Fri, 15 April 2016, 21:53:57
Post by: ideus on Fri, 15 April 2016, 21:58:14
Post by: Magna224 on Fri, 15 April 2016, 23:23:04
Interesting. I haven't done much reading on large/small logo or anything but had assumed that vintage switches were smoother largely due to newer tooling and materials. Sounds like wear is the primary factor.
Has anyone compared NIB vintage MX Blacks to NIB modern MX Blacks?
I have some 'like new' vintage blacks that came out of a clean room. Most of the keys weren't even used outside of a few F keys since it was from a terminal that is only used for maintenance testing. It has suffered more in my closet over the past few years than the entire rest of its life in manufacturing. Unfortunately I don't have any other vintage switches for comparison. They are much smoother than any modern MX black I have used NIB. Maybe just slightly less smooth than my new gateron blacksif not the same but with some age I believe they would be just as smooth/smoother. I used to have a wyse keyboard but the switches just felt like normal blacks.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 16 April 2016, 01:42:56
[...] Sounds like wear is the primary factor. ¶ Has anyone compared NIB vintage MX Blacks to NIB modern MX Blacks?
are vintage blacks truely smoother because of design, or are they just smoother because they are more worn in?
Interesting posting; but, as others have wrote already, the difference may be due mainly to the degree of wear they have,
This comes up over and over. Comparing mint condition MX switches from the mid-1980s to mint condition MX switches from today, there is a night-and-day difference. It’s not at all subtle, and, fundamentally, wear has nothing to do with it. If you pull a group of random people off the street and have them type on two otherwise identical boards with 1985 and 2015 MX black switches and ask for comments, I promise many of them will notice the scratchiness. If you hold two loose switches up to your ear, one sounds like rubbing your palms together, and the other sounds like sandpaper rubbing on a chalkboard.
There are folks on this forum who vehemently insist otherwise, but they’ve either never tried good condition switches from the mid-1980s, or have 100% hearing loss and no feeling left in their fingertips.
I have no opinion on MX switches from 1990–2010, or the implications of logo size; the “vintage” switches I’ve tried were all from ~1985–’87.
It’s certainly possible that wear helps improve either type of switch. I doubt the new ones ever be as smooth as NIB 1985 switches though, unless you manually add some lubricant.
It’s also possible for 30 year old switches to be scratchy and terrible, if dust manages to get inside.
[Of course, even the best MX switches are kinda meh. Even “vintage” MX black switches have too heavy a spring, so to get something really nice to type on you need to open every switch, swap out the springs, and add some lubricant. A lot easier to just use green Alps, white space invaders, or some nice switch from the 70s.]
Post by: Venatorious on Sat, 16 April 2016, 02:19:47
are vintage blacks truely smoother because of design, or are they just smoother because they are more worn in?
Pretty sure its cause they are worn in. I have sooo many small logo blacks and a lot of them feel different.
Post by: lolpes on Sat, 16 April 2016, 02:42:31
Paging @Prelim and any other person on the PT meetup who also did that comparisson on site.
Post by: pr0ximity on Sat, 16 April 2016, 05:15:25
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Do you know if the "big logo" switches can be more specifically dated than the smaller ones? Curious what I have on my board with vintage Blacks.[...] Sounds like wear is the primary factor. ¶ Has anyone compared NIB vintage MX Blacks to NIB modern MX Blacks?are vintage blacks truely smoother because of design, or are they just smoother because they are more worn in?Interesting posting; but, as others have wrote already, the difference may be due mainly to the degree of wear they have,
This comes up over and over. Comparing mint condition MX switches from the mid-1980s to mint condition MX switches from today, there is a night-and-day difference. It’s not at all subtle, and, fundamentally, wear has nothing to do with it. If you pull a group of random people off the street and have them type on two otherwise identical boards with 1985 and 2015 MX black switches and ask for comments, I promise many of them will notice the scratchiness. If you hold two loose switches up to your ear, one sounds like rubbing your palms together, and the other sounds like sandpaper rubbing on a chalkboard.
There are folks on this forum who vehemently insist otherwise, but they’ve either never tried good condition switches from the mid-1980s, or have 100% hearing loss and no feeling left in their fingertips.
I have no opinion on MX switches from 1990–2010, or the implications of logo size; the “vintage” switches I’ve tried were all from ~1985–’87.
It’s certainly possible that wear helps improve either type of switch. I doubt the new ones ever be as smooth as NIB 1985 switches though, unless you manually add some lubricant.
It’s also possible for 30 year old switches to be scratchy and terrible, if dust manages to get inside.
[Of course, even the best MX switches are kinda meh. Even “vintage” MX black switches have too heavy a spring, so to get something really nice to type on you need to open every switch, swap out the springs, and add some lubricant. A lot easier to just use green Alps, white space invaders, or some nice switch from the 70s.]
Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 05:34:26
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:00:28
Do we have a more-or-less date of when vintage MX blacks changed composition to become non-vintage ones?
This would be interesting.
Also, with vintage is meant: (a) old but new blacks or (b) used blacks for a long time so they are "worn in"?
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:06:50
No, just old ones regardless of use. We know that Cherry subtly changed the design of their switches at a certain point which presumably caused the drop in quality. It would be good to know when.Do we have a more-or-less date of when vintage MX blacks changed composition to become non-vintage ones?
This would be interesting.
Also, with vintage is meant: (a) old but new blacks or (b) used blacks for a long time so they are "worn in"?
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:11:58
No, just old ones regardless of use. We know that Cherry subtly changed the design of their switches at a certain point which presumably caused the drop in quality. It would be good to know when.Do we have a more-or-less date of when vintage MX blacks changed composition to become non-vintage ones?
This would be interesting.
Also, with vintage is meant: (a) old but new blacks or (b) used blacks for a long time so they are "worn in"?
That would be good to know indeed!
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:16:01
Actually the DT wiki has the answer here:No, just old ones regardless of use. We know that Cherry subtly changed the design of their switches at a certain point which presumably caused the drop in quality. It would be good to know when.Do we have a more-or-less date of when vintage MX blacks changed composition to become non-vintage ones?
This would be interesting.
Also, with vintage is meant: (a) old but new blacks or (b) used blacks for a long time so they are "worn in"?
That would be good to know indeed!
Quote
Material tests have shown that Cherry indeed seemed to have changed the material of the Cherry MX Black switch. This is assumed to have happened sometime between 1994 and 1995, when Cherry also changed some data of their other MX switches in their product catalogs
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:20:18
Actually the DT wiki has the answer here:QuoteMaterial tests have shown that Cherry indeed seemed to have changed the material of the Cherry MX Black switch. This is assumed to have happened sometime between 1994 and 1995, when Cherry also changed some data of their other MX switches in their product catalogs
I'm wondering now: why would they have changed it? Didn't they also change something for mx clears.. weren't grays / whites the predecessor to clears or do I have it all wrong now?
Post by: LunarisDream on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:21:30
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:26:04
I don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:39:19
I don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:54:33
No what they should do is make a Switch out of led so they can make money out of emI don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 06:57:02
No what they should do is make a Switch out of led so they can make money out of emI don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
So a clear switch + stem with a led attached to it for better / more even lighting?
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 07:05:04
Quality standards is arguably what killed off all the other manufacturers :p . Cherry survived by being **** :p .I don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 07:06:15
Quality standards is arguably what killed off all the other manufacturers :p . Cherry survived by being **** :p .I don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
Perhaps zealios can provide some competition to cherry... they look promising
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 07:14:38
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 07:15:44
Oh my god I misread that as zeolites... talk about job conditioning xD .Quality standards is arguably what killed off all the other manufacturers :p . Cherry survived by being **** :p .I don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
Perhaps zealios can provide some competition to cherry... they look promising
I don't know enough about modern boards to be an expert, but Zealio seems like an interesting project. Clears looked promising then I tried them in my 9009.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 07:20:47
Oh my god I misread that as zeolites... talk about job conditioning xD .Quality standards is arguably what killed off all the other manufacturers :p . Cherry survived by being **** :p .I don't know why Cherry doesn't have an end-all-be-all reply to this question. It's been asked over and over again for years now.Well have you asked them? :p
Cherry should step up their game. Make switches that are smooth as f**k. Give topre some competition. New browns really feel grainy.
Perhaps zealios can provide some competition to cherry... they look promising
I don't know enough about modern boards to be an expert, but Zealio seems like an interesting project. Clears looked promising then I tried them in my 9009.
I love my clears.
Post by: Venatorious on Sat, 16 April 2016, 09:43:51
lets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 09:50:09
lets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
That would be cool.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 09:51:27
alps is for like people who type with 2 fingers cause they **** my typing speedlets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 10:01:35
alps is for like people who type with 2 fingers cause they **** my typing speedlets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
but you consider alps users people? :P
What's wrong with alps?
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 10:28:35
Return rate too slowalps is for like people who type with 2 fingers cause they **** my typing speedlets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
but you consider alps users people?
What's wrong with alps?
Post by: Mattr567 on Sat, 16 April 2016, 10:50:33
Return rate too slowalps is for like people who type with 2 fingers cause they **** my typing speedlets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
but you consider alps users people?
What's wrong with alps?
Funnily I find Cherry's fast return rate to be too quick on heavier switches. Really you have to get into the groove for actuation and return rates for both. Going either way takes a couple days. My only issue with Alps boards is the spacebar. A faster return rate would do nicely there, or at least some more stabilization. Most spacebars only have one of these on one side: http://i.imgur.com/NFmrBYL.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/NFmrBYL.jpg) and as a result they feel slow and take a while to return, slowing my typing speed.
My SGI AT101 is a great example. Luckily my Focus FK-3001 has 2, and it feels great. This also means that I can flip an Alps spacebar for once :D Although I won't be doing that for now however.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 13:13:13
Post by: alienman82 on Sat, 16 April 2016, 13:21:30
Post by: Mattr567 on Sat, 16 April 2016, 14:06:10
Is return rate really an issue with alps? Or is it more like NKRO: would be nice to have, but only noticeable in corner cases?
No it isn't personally. I love Alps, I was just saying that bad spacebar stabilization can lead to a slow spacebar return rate.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:30:29
Is return rate really an issue with alps? Or is it more like NKRO: would be nice to have, but only noticeable in corner cases?
No it isn't personally. I love Alps, I was just saying that bad spacebar stabilization can lead to a slow spacebar return rate.
Ah ok. How are keys stabilized with alps?
Post by: Crossfire on Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:56:40
I had 30+ wyse boards, and while some were all large logos, most were all small or a mix of mostly small with some large in there. I think they stopped making the old design at some point, and just used the left over stock with the new ones. That makes the most sense to me. Vintage blacks are better than new mx blacks but gateron blacks are somewhat in between new and vintage blacks.This.
Vintage MX blacks then Gateron blacks then looong way behind the new mx blacks.
The logo thing is really not a 100% indication of vintage, that's a fact. What probably is a fact too: the year of manufacture of the board, if it's 20-25 years old, it should be considered vintage. Some years ago the vintages would be only from the 80's boards, now there are from 90's too and well beyond -> is a board from 95' considered a vintage? Changed design and all the other factors taken into the account, the answer should be yes - but a crappy vintage none the least :)
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:34:23
Is return rate really an issue with alps? Or is it more like NKRO: would be nice to have, but only noticeable in corner cases?yes return rate is an issue with alps
Post by: chyros on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:37:18
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:42:26
[Alps switch] Return rate too slowIs this a problem for you when typing, or only for some kind of performance video-game context? Which Alps switches specifically are you talking about?
By “return rate”, do you mean they’re not stiff enough for you, or the switch actuation point is too high in the stroke, or something else?
If you think the spring is too soft, you could always try putting a stiffer spring in, e.g. using the springs from black Alps switches in your green Alps switches, or the springs from Matias clicky switches in your Matias linears.
If the issue is the actuation point, then that’s probably mostly down to practice and what you’re used to. The key will return plenty fast if you’re not holding it down.
If your typing speed is getting slowed down dramatically, there’s something funky going on. Plenty of people can type 100+ wpm with various types of Alps switches.
Some old Alps switches in bad condition have some dust/grit inside the switch, and can stick on the upstroke. This is not a built-in feature, but a result of storage on some dusty shelf without a box for 20 years.
My only issue with Alps boards is the spacebar. A faster return rate would do nicely there, or at least some more stabilization. Most spacebars only have one of these on one side: http://i.imgur.com/NFmrBYL.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/NFmrBYL.jpg) and as a result they feel slow and take a while to return, slowing my typing speed.
If the spacebar is sticking, then there might be some gunk holding the stabilizer back. A lot of these peg stabilizers were lubricated at the factory, and 20+ years later the lubricant gets a bit tacky. Other times, the plastic of the stabilizer peg has been abraded a bit, and has a rough surface which catches. If you clean the stabilizers (peg, peg holder, and optionally the wire and wire clips) and then re-lubricate them, it can help smooth things out.
Some Alps keyboards have a spacebar switch with an extra-stiff spring, an external coil spring around the stabilizer peg, or even a second dummy keyswitch to return the spacebar. If your spacebar isn’t returning even after you clean and lubricate the stabilizers, you could try to find such an external coil spring to add.
My personal opinion is that any spacebar longer than 5 units is an absurdity, and all the work to stabilize ridiculous 7+ unit wide spacebars is a huge waste. Standardish-layout keyboards would be a lot better if they used split 2.5x1.5 unit spacebars instead, with keycaps shaped like the ones on the Matias ErgoPro.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:53:12
all alps switch.[Alps switch] Return rate too slowIs this a problem for you when typing, or only for some kind of performance video-game context? Which Alps switches specifically are you talking about?
By “return rate”, do you mean they’re not stiff enough for you, or the switch actuation point is too high in the stroke?
If you think the spring is too soft, you could always try putting a stiffer spring in, e.g. using the springs from black Alps switches in your green Alps switches, or the springs from Matias clicky switches in your Matias linears.
If the issue is the actuation point, then that’s probably mostly down to practice and what you’re used to. The key will return plenty fast if you’re not holding it down.
If your typing speed is getting slowed down, there’s something funky going on. Plenty of people can type 100+ wpm with clicky Alps switches.
yeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom out and it feels that the return rate is so slow I even prefer my ****ty rubber dome
but yeah the feel of alps switch is 2x times better than cherry
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:58:06
yeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom outThis sounds like a typing style problem then. The point of the high actuation point is that you don’t need to mash the switch down hard to the bottom; instead you can type lightly just past the actuation point (on a tactile switch, past the tactile point) and then move on to the next keystroke without worrying about the switch failing to actuate. [Don’t worry too much about completely avoiding bottoming the switch out, just try to not use more force than necessary once you get past actuation.]
If you’re used to a cheap rubber dome board where you need to mash the key all the way down, then you might need some practice to retrain your fingers.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:58:36
all alps switch.[Alps switch] Return rate too slowIs this a problem for you when typing, or only for some kind of performance video-game context? Which Alps switches specifically are you talking about?
By “return rate”, do you mean they’re not stiff enough for you, or the switch actuation point is too high in the stroke?
If you think the spring is too soft, you could always try putting a stiffer spring in, e.g. using the springs from black Alps switches in your green Alps switches, or the springs from Matias clicky switches in your Matias linears.
If the issue is the actuation point, then that’s probably mostly down to practice and what you’re used to. The key will return plenty fast if you’re not holding it down.
If your typing speed is getting slowed down, there’s something funky going on. Plenty of people can type 100+ wpm with clicky Alps switches.
yeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom out and it feels that the return rate is so slow I even prefer my ****ty rubber dome
but yeah the feel of alps switch is 2x times better than cherry
Seems like you can't win with alps then :( I am really interested in alps but it almost sounds like the return rate is so bad you will actually really notice it.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:06:14
no actually my rubber dome is really light and not mushy at all so I don't need to mash the key all the way downyeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom outThis sounds like a typing style problem then. The point of the high actuation point is that you don’t need to mash the switch down hard to the bottom; instead you can type lightly just past the actuation point (on a tactile switch, past the tactile point) and then move on to the next keystroke without worrying about the switch failing to actuate. [Don’t worry too much about completely avoiding bottoming the switch out, just try to not use more force than necessary once you get past actuation.]
If you’re used to a cheap rubber dome board where you need to mash the key all the way down, then you might need some practice to retrain your fingers.
I tried to like alps but nahh and I'm a light typist
I just can't avoid bottoming out because the switches force me to bottom out
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:07:51
no actually my rubber dome is really light and not mushy at all so I don't need to mash the key all the way downyeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom outThis sounds like a typing style problem then. The point of the high actuation point is that you don’t need to mash the switch down hard to the bottom; instead you can type lightly just past the actuation point (on a tactile switch, past the tactile point) and then move on to the next keystroke without worrying about the switch failing to actuate. [Don’t worry too much about completely avoiding bottoming the switch out, just try to not use more force than necessary once you get past actuation.]
If you’re used to a cheap rubber dome board where you need to mash the key all the way down, then you might need some practice to retrain your fingers.
I tried to like alps but nahh and I'm a light typist
I just can't avoid bottoming out because the switches force me to bottom out
it's funny coz at first I was in love with my browns but they were my first. now that i'm on clears and 55g topre, when I get back at my browns I have this feeling that there is zero travel. It feels so insanely light it has become unusable for me. The bottoming out... it feels like I'm pushing the key all the way through my desk.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:14:24
that's because you like heavier switch? ???no actually my rubber dome is really light and not mushy at all so I don't need to mash the key all the way downyeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom outThis sounds like a typing style problem then. The point of the high actuation point is that you don’t need to mash the switch down hard to the bottom; instead you can type lightly just past the actuation point (on a tactile switch, past the tactile point) and then move on to the next keystroke without worrying about the switch failing to actuate. [Don’t worry too much about completely avoiding bottoming the switch out, just try to not use more force than necessary once you get past actuation.]
If you’re used to a cheap rubber dome board where you need to mash the key all the way down, then you might need some practice to retrain your fingers.
I tried to like alps but nahh and I'm a light typist
I just can't avoid bottoming out because the switches force me to bottom out
it's funny coz at first I was in love with my browns but they were my first. now that i'm on clears and 55g topre, when I get back at my browns I have this feeling that there is zero travel. It feels so insanely light it has become unusable for me. The bottoming out... it feels like I'm pushing the key all the way through my desk.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:19:49
it's funny coz at first I was in love with my browns but they were my first. now that i'm on clears and 55g topre, when I get back at my browns I have this feeling that there is zero travel. It feels so insanely light it has become unusable for me. The bottoming out... it feels like I'm pushing the key all the way through my desk.that's because you like heavier switch? ???
I do now! I thought I liked browns, but then I got my clears and they were really stiff for my fingers at first. But after a week I managed to not bottom out all the time and they felt perfect. Then, of course, after 45g topre I became curious and bought 55g topre. Love at first feel.
So yes... I like heavier switch. Besides gaming I suppose. Turns out my built-in keyboard in mbp late 2010 (unibody one but before retina) is 62g scissor
Post by: merlin64 on Sat, 16 April 2016, 21:27:11
FYI, I'm a tactile feedback guy, and I've only been able to find that degree of tactility on Alps. My favorite keyboard is my alps64 with brown alps and my clueboard with orange alps. I have like 5 linear greens and have been looking to try linear switches, that's what led me to actually trying out some of the "vintage" blacks that I had.
I'm impressed by vintage blacks, but not impressed enough to use them for a build. I scored a used cherry mx silent strafe board on craigslist for cheap. Gonna use those for my linear build.
Post by: itzmeluigi on Sat, 16 April 2016, 21:37:43
alps is for like people who type with 2 fingers cause they **** my typing speedlets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
Nah Alps is fine bro, just need to get used to the switch. I can do 145WPM if i try.
(http://i.imgur.com/ek8ZnYp.jpg)
Post by: alienman82 on Sat, 16 April 2016, 21:42:15
Post by: Polymer on Sat, 16 April 2016, 23:00:21
Seems like you can't win with alps then :( I am really interested in alps but it almost sounds like the return rate is so bad you will actually really notice it.
You don't..it is mental.
You aren't typing any slower using alps..it is like Topre....where you are pretty much forced to bottom out because how the force curve drops off but the actuation happens early on...
Post by: Mattr567 on Sat, 16 April 2016, 23:13:54
all alps switch.[Alps switch] Return rate too slowIs this a problem for you when typing, or only for some kind of performance video-game context? Which Alps switches specifically are you talking about?
By “return rate”, do you mean they’re not stiff enough for you, or the switch actuation point is too high in the stroke?
If you think the spring is too soft, you could always try putting a stiffer spring in, e.g. using the springs from black Alps switches in your green Alps switches, or the springs from Matias clicky switches in your Matias linears.
If the issue is the actuation point, then that’s probably mostly down to practice and what you’re used to. The key will return plenty fast if you’re not holding it down.
If your typing speed is getting slowed down, there’s something funky going on. Plenty of people can type 100+ wpm with clicky Alps switches.
yeah it's because the actuation point on top that makes me always bottom out and it feels that the return rate is so slow I even prefer my ****ty rubber dome
but yeah the feel of alps switch is 2x times better than cherry
Hmm, what is your experience with Alps, have you tried cleaned ones? When I cleaned all my SKCM Whites in my FK-3001 it made a huge difference in the return rate. It was almost as if the dust was dampening it lol. Now they pop nicely :) I'm thinking a more tactile switch like SKCM White would do ya good.
[Alps switch] Return rate too slowIs this a problem for you when typing, or only for some kind of performance video-game context? Which Alps switches specifically are you talking about?
By “return rate”, do you mean they’re not stiff enough for you, or the switch actuation point is too high in the stroke, or something else?
If you think the spring is too soft, you could always try putting a stiffer spring in, e.g. using the springs from black Alps switches in your green Alps switches, or the springs from Matias clicky switches in your Matias linears.
If the issue is the actuation point, then that’s probably mostly down to practice and what you’re used to. The key will return plenty fast if you’re not holding it down.
If your typing speed is getting slowed down dramatically, there’s something funky going on. Plenty of people can type 100+ wpm with various types of Alps switches.
Some old Alps switches in bad condition have some dust/grit inside the switch, and can stick on the upstroke. This is not a built-in feature, but a result of storage on some dusty shelf without a box for 20 years.My only issue with Alps boards is the spacebar. A faster return rate would do nicely there, or at least some more stabilization. Most spacebars only have one of these on one side: http://i.imgur.com/NFmrBYL.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/NFmrBYL.jpg) and as a result they feel slow and take a while to return, slowing my typing speed.
If the spacebar is sticking, then there might be some gunk holding the stabilizer back. A lot of these peg stabilizers were lubricated at the factory, and 20+ years later the lubricant gets a bit tacky. Other times, the plastic of the stabilizer peg has been abraded a bit, and has a rough surface which catches. If you clean the stabilizers (peg, peg holder, and optionally the wire and wire clips) and then re-lubricate them, it can help smooth things out.
Some Alps keyboards have a spacebar switch with an extra-stiff spring, an external coil spring around the stabilizer peg, or even a second dummy keyswitch to return the spacebar. If your spacebar isn’t returning even after you clean and lubricate the stabilizers, you could try to find such an external coil spring to add.
My personal opinion is that any spacebar longer than 5 units is an absurdity, and all the work to stabilize ridiculous 7+ unit wide spacebars is a huge waste. Standardish-layout keyboards would be a lot better if they used split 2.5x1.5 unit spacebars instead, with keycaps shaped like the ones on the Matias ErgoPro.
Will look at that! Thanks. It is really a minor complaint. Alps :-* That board is still great. SKCM Orange swapped SGI Granite, all because I can't stand the dimples being on the D/K keys on the AEK/II :p
Sadly for your sake a lot of Alps boards have 5+ U spacebars. Personally 7 is the limit. Any longer and it is just ridiculous. The NeXt non-adb is a great example. Great caps and cool factory non-damp SKCM Cream but that spacebar :eek: I don't know how stabilization will cope with that length. Of course there are worse offenders but that is what pops into my mind.
Post by: les_garten on Sat, 04 June 2016, 22:45:24
I have a basically new Wyse PCE console keyboard with Blacks in it.
I bought it new in the late 90's. There have been maybe 500-1000 total keystrokes on it, if that many.
I used it to crack into Cisco and Livingston routers that the Telnet password had been lost on. That's it, and to just be hooked to a console. The switches are like new as are the doubleshot keypads. The keypads are a little discolored from some UV exposure. The keyboard is mint. No scratches, stains, etc. Pulled a few keys and clean as a Hounds tooth under them.
Just has not been used and I am the original owner.
How much would it be valued for in cash or trade you gurus of Keyboard switches?
I'm trying to come up with some mech keyboards and I don't build.
The idea of all that soldering makes me crazy to think about it. I also think I am a Brown kind of guy. Although this feels pretty good.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 05 June 2016, 03:00:00
Post by: bocahgundul on Sun, 05 June 2016, 03:09:05
soooo 3 fingers? :)) :)) :)) :)) :))alps is for like people who type with 2 fingers cause they **** my typing speedlets get over it. Cherry is dead and the next big thing is gateron
Let's face it. Cherry and Gateron are dead and the next big thing is alps
Nah Alps is fine bro, just need to get used to the switch. I can do 145WPM if i try.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ek8ZnYp.jpg)
jk jk its just I don't like alps :p
Post by: les_garten on Sun, 05 June 2016, 03:49:36
Who knows. For a late-90s WYSE board, I’m going to guess <$50, but it’s hard to say.
Thanx!
Post by: Prelim on Sun, 05 June 2016, 04:41:26
... I also have some switches from 89 which are all very smooth, but small-logo just like modern ones. This coupled with people getting small-logo ones on their vintage boards makes me suspect the large/small logo answer isn't a particularly good one Oo .
x2, I can confirm this on my boards as well (either w/ NIB or used switches). Big/Small logo doesn't mean sh1t guys!
Post by: HeeCh2ei on Fri, 05 August 2016, 12:45:30
Is there any chance that the switches are the vintage black? They are all have a small logo and brownish grease on the stem legs.
Switches are unaccessible at the moment, so I'm asking here.
Also they were highly contaminated with a lime or a chalk dust and currently the bottoms of they are taking another week of isopropanol bath.
Post by: evilpacket on Fri, 05 August 2016, 21:22:27
My teacher has been doing keyboards for a long time and I got a chance to type a few of his boards. One of his main boards was a 356 mini with a set of vintage mx blacks taken from a nib g80-1000. the blacks on it had lighter springs and was lubed, and it was a typegasmic experience.
He pointed out that when getting vintage mx blacks the condition of the switches plays a big role in getting that typing feel. I got some decent switches for a decent price so I'll see how things go. I might also cop a nib wyse for 50 bucks if I like the switches from the HCC
Post by: alienman82 on Fri, 05 August 2016, 22:08:42
Post by: evilpacket on Fri, 10 February 2017, 09:19:27
Well, idk if people knew but I heard that cherry mx changed some of their manufacturing processes that used to make smoother switches due to some pollution issues. That caused them to come up with the manufacturing process they have right now, leading to the scratchier switches we have today. I got 90 switches taken off from a HCC a few days ago for 20 bucks from a dude on a forum. can't wait to lube them and try 'em out.
My teacher has been doing keyboards for a long time and I got a chance to type a few of his boards. One of his main boards was a 356 mini with a set of vintage mx blacks taken from a nib g80-1000. the blacks on it had lighter springs and was lubed, and it was a typegasmic experience.
He pointed out that when getting vintage mx blacks the condition of the switches plays a big role in getting that typing feel. I got some decent switches for a decent price so I'll see how things go. I might also cop a nib wyse for 50 bucks if I like the switches from the HCC
knowing somone in real life with an OTD?!??? That is really cool.. I only met one person who was into keyboards, but he was stuck in the zealios DCS circle jerk.
Yeah, he has a few unassembled kits and numerous assembled OTD-era boards because he's been a part of that community for a long time.
It's been a few months since I checked gh again and during that time I copped another keyboard from my teacher, and it also has good quality vintage mx blacks in it