geekhack

geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:11:52

Title: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:11:52: See Subject.

The goal is to buy a super energy efficient laptop and ditch the hard and optical drives so that I can use a light weight live linux distro on a sd card / usb stick. Yes, I can plug it in on the outside but it would be much nicer to install it inside.

This should be more energy efficient, and with a write protected stick/card - impervious to malware.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: zombimuncha on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:24:12: ummm. Any "ultrabook" with an ssd would basically be the same thing only faster. Or does an SD card reader somehow use less power than an SSD?
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:38:01: Quote from: zombimuncha on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:24:12
ummm. Any "ultrabook" with an ssd would basically be the same thing only faster. Or does an SD card reader somehow use less power than an SSD?

The point is to not use writable storage. RAM based distro's like LPS and Tails are what I'm after.

If for some reason the laptop is taken there wouldn't be a trace of anything on it.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:49:54: Quote from: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:38:01
Quote from: zombimuncha on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:24:12
ummm. Any "ultrabook" with an ssd would basically be the same thing only faster. Or does an SD card reader somehow use less power than an SSD?

The point is to not use writable storage. RAM based distro's like LPS and Tails are what I'm after.

If for some reason the laptop is taken there wouldn't be a trace of anything on it.

Dante, what's ur new hacker handle... (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/uhuhuh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862523)
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:52:06: Quote from: tp4tissue on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:49:54
Quote from: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:38:01
Quote from: zombimuncha on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:24:12
ummm. Any "ultrabook" with an ssd would basically be the same thing only faster. Or does an SD card reader somehow use less power than an SSD?

The point is to not use writable storage. RAM based distro's like LPS and Tails are what I'm after.

If for some reason the laptop is taken there wouldn't be a trace of anything on it.

Dante, what's ur new hacker handle...
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/uhuhuh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862523)

I'm not a hacker nor looking to do anything illegal. Part of this is security - part of this just sounds really cool (to me.)
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:56:28: Your best bet IMO is to buy a laptop and manually pull the HDD/DVD Drives. I can't think of any laptops that come without either of those.

And I think you'll be limited to USB only, as most laptop BIOS won't see SD cards as bootable.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:58:08: Build something with a raspberry pi?
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:58:47: Quote from: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:56:28
Your best bet IMO is to buy a laptop and manually pull the HDD/DVD Drives. I can't think of any laptops that come without either of those.

And I think you'll be relegated to USB only, as most laptop BIOS won't see SD cards as bootable.

Pulling drives from a unit is a given. In fact some resellers might even do it for a discount just to have spare parts.

I wasn't sure if there was a cable that would make a USB stick be seen as a harddrive - which can then be mounted inside.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:00:28: Quote from: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:58:47
Quote from: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:56:28
Your best bet IMO is to buy a laptop and manually pull the HDD/DVD Drives. I can't think of any laptops that come without either of those.

And I think you'll be relegated to USB only, as most laptop BIOS won't see SD cards as bootable.

Pulling drives from a unit is a given. In fact some resellers might even do it for a discount just to have spare parts.

I wasn't sure if there was a cable that would make a USB stick be seen as a harddrive - which can then be mounted inside.

As long as the USB Drive is formatted properly, most newer computers shouldn't have any issue booting from USB.

I think a tiny USB Drive may be your bet, perhaps something like this? http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Cruzer-Low-Profile-Drive--SDCZ33-032G-B35/dp/B00812F7O8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1461088782&sr=8-2&keywords=cruzer+fit

I can't think of anything that would essentially make it internal. At least this way you can easily remove at will.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:03:10: There's also options like this: http://www.dx.com/p/sata-to-2-sd-card-converter-adapter-green-194037

These will be dependent on the space in the HDD bay of the laptop, however. They make these for SD, and CF as well.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:03:44: yeah if there are no other options that would probably be best. I just need to find one that has a write protect switch on it - so malware would have no place to go and get erased once powered down/reboot.

I'm not sure about Tails but I believe LPS loads everything into memory and never accesses physical storage once loaded.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:03:47: Quote from: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:58:47
Quote from: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:56:28
Your best bet IMO is to buy a laptop and manually pull the HDD/DVD Drives. I can't think of any laptops that come without either of those.

And I think you'll be relegated to USB only, as most laptop BIOS won't see SD cards as bootable.

Pulling drives from a unit is a given. In fact some resellers might even do it for a discount just to have spare parts.

I wasn't sure if there was a cable that would make a USB stick be seen as a harddrive - which can then be mounted inside.

What you would do is, remove one of the usb ports.. take it to where the harddrive used to go, and solder wires to it, and then plug in an sd card /reader into it.

I think this would be easier on a laptop that has a card reader already..

HOWEVER, on the older laptops, usually they use a usb2.0 port on the card reader and not a usb 3.0 port , which would make a big difference in sd-card bandwidth.

So if you go with a laptop with a slot, make sure to check if it's usb3.0 slot or 2.0
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:07:54: Quote from: dante on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:03:44
yeah if there are no other options that would probably be best. I just need to find one that has a write protect switch on it - so malware would have no place to go and get erased once powered down/reboot.

I'm not sure about Tails but I believe LPS loads everything into memory and never accesses physical storage once loaded.

Tails won't access your physical storage either.

And for USB Drives, I know Kanguru has a bunch of drives with Write Protection Switches on them. :thumb:
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 19 April 2016, 14:26:39: Hmmm there was this guy on youtube who put SD card in laptop and ran win98 off of it. He complained that SD cards die fast and are not up to many read/write. Perhaps if you only read it is ok. It was also really slow. But if you could get a SDHC with 90 MB/s... that's basically faster than IDE (tops 60-80 back in the day).
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: Darkshado on Wed, 20 April 2016, 01:14:18: Could that have been CF cards? IIRC those had an IDE interface like hard drives of the time.

Depending on the threats you're planning for, and how you feel about Google, a Chromebook with its signed and physically write-protected firmware used in guest mode could be an option.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 20 April 2016, 02:05:58: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Tue, 19 April 2016, 12:58:08
Build something with a raspberry pi?

I was thinking this too!

You'd need a reasonable screen, and a small keyboard.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: nephiel on Wed, 20 April 2016, 02:47:32: Look for a laptop that has a PCIe slot with mSata support (http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/install-msata-ssd-tutorial).

Then you can use a SDcard to mSata (https://www.google.com/search?q=sd+card+to+msata) adapter and use it as a bootable hard drive.

To finish it off you can write-protect the SDcard, but flipping the 'read-only' switch on the card itself usually does nothing at all. I'd go with one of these devices (https://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/sdlocker.html).

I use a microSD locked this way in a USB card reader to boot recovery and diagnostics software on misbehaving/virus-ridden computers without a optical drive; since it's read-only, just like a CD-ROM, it can't be infected.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Wed, 20 April 2016, 11:23:26: Interesting info - especially that write-protected SD cards don't really write protect.... hmm...
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 20 April 2016, 18:59:56: Most sdcard ports are unbootable unless you use something like Plop to boot them. Using a Pi maybe tempting, but not all programs run on ARM processors. Another to avoid is Bay Trail and Cherry trail systems, Linux support for them is atrocious. Nothing is really write protected unless it has a hardware switch, but you need enterprise level hardware for it.

Oh, one thing before going further, flash memory has limited writes (obviously), but sd cards usually have fewer writes than thumbdrives. However, many thumb drives have cheap voltage regulators which cause them to die off before even a micro sd would have become worn out. Any small flash memory system should be considered disposable (which is why they should not be your sole backup system).

That said, there are several options, going from easy to difficult...
You can get thumbsticks that only hang out 1/4in., this would let you swap systems at will. There are even micro sd adapters that stick out no further.

You can install a thumbdrive image straight to a normal hard drive, leaving it read only. That's all these thumbsticks are doing is acting as a hard drive with a system set to read only. Use Universal USB Installer, enable "view all drives" and point it at the drive you want to use, it should do the rest (note I have not tried this, but it should work). Of course this means wasting a hard drive, and carrying that extra weight, other methods listed here allow you to remove all other drives. This is probably the best option... I recommend finding an older Intel 30GB ssd though. You might think the usb would be more efficient power wise, but USB is not as optimized as a nice ssd, and you can't be sure hwo a system will react to standby mode when running off a usb stick. This is something you may want to test before you go any further.

There is an old Hp netbook (Hp Mini 1000) that had a recessed USB port. It was meant for a proprietary HP accessory, the Mini Mobile Drive, but was actually just a recessed USB port with a proprietary slot shape. While you could just go buy a Mini Mobile drive (I found none on ebay, Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/HP-Mini-Mobile-Drive-FY825AA/dp/B001U21PME/ref=sr_1_sc_1/191-5841745-9498703?ie=UTF8&qid=1461190239&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=hp+mini+mobiel+drive) wanted $90 for a 4gb version...), it's really easy to open it up, cut a small chunk of plastic and plug in a small usb drive in it (I put a bluetooth adapter in mine). Bonus, this has the best keyboard of any small computer you will find, had higher resolution than most at the time, 3 different screen sizes (9,10 and 11.6) and came in artsy versions. Of course, as a netbook, it will be a bit slow (it supports 2gb ram), but for $75-100 (Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=hp+mini+netbook+1000&_osacat=177&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC2.A0.H0.Xhp++netbook+1000.TRS1&_nkw=hp++netbook+1000&_sacat=177)), it's not going to be heartbreaking if it gets trashed. Guide (http://technocation.org/content/how-i-hacked-hp-mini-mobile-drive-port-be-normal-usb-port) to hacking the port, this guy relocated his to be a normal USB, but of course you don't need to, it just shows what it is and where. While slow and not fantastic battery life, these where great little netbooks, they could even run OSX with minimal effort (chrome should also work). They are pretty durable as well, if you want disposable, this is one of your best options. Being a netbook, Linux support should be great. While you may scoff at a netbook, considering you will be running Linux off a USB stick, the netbook processor is probably not going to be that big of a bottleneck.

Find a laptop with an Express Port (for small, look at the Lenovo S10E, has to be the E variant), then get an express card with a single usb port. Open the card and hack the insides of it, it should be just a pass through as the express port is just a mini pci-e port, which contains a sata connection and usb connection, Before anyone goes and gets any ideas, many Express Ports have the sata lines removed for cost cutting.

Speaking of mini pci-e...
Find a laptop with dual internal mini-pci-e slots and use the second one (as above, the sata lines are probably cut, but soem companies do hook them up, research!). You can get a mini-pice-e to usb adapter but odds of it fitting inside with the cover in place is slim. The other method is to solder in a usb port and place it where the HD or CD would normally sit. The Lenovo T410s (must be an S model) is a bit ugly, heavy, and doesn't have great battery life, but they are relatively cheap ($100-150 I think), plentiful, available with a gorgeous 1440x900 screen, and Nvidia graphics. With a (first gen) I5 or I7 and 8gigs of DDR3 ram, they can be a real powerhouse. Also, Lenovo Linux support is pretty much second to none, this is one of the few laptops where Linux doesn't significantly alter battery life and Mac can probably be run as well.

A few notebooks have a usb port on a secondary daughter board, which can be unbolted and stashed elsewhere (hd or cd bay) inside the laptop to create a flush look. While an easy mod and sounds simple enough, the trouble is finding a compatible laptop. The problem isn't just one with a daughter board (not that common), but one with a daughter board and a long enough cable to relocate it. The Sony SZ series (13in screen) is the only one off the top of my head I can think of capable of it. These laptops are very nice, and while you can find them relatively cheap (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=sony+vgn-sz&_frs=1), certain parts and repairs on them are quite expensive and difficult when they do break. These were light weight, high end, exotic systems and sold to niche users, so they are often are in great shape (they have very nice keyboards, touchpads, and screens too). The later models 550 and up (EU) and 650 and up (US) suffer from the Nvidia x400 soldering problems, but since they have dual graphics cards, you can still use the internal Intel video system if it fails, but most still fully operate since it was only used part time. The later models also had some pretty high end C2D processors that could hang with early Core I5 processors when given enough ram (these support 8gigs DDR2), but that much DDR2 is not cheap (comparatively speaking), not that Linux needs it anyhow. Some versions of Ubuntu do not like to suspend on these models, but that is an easy fix (use dconf-editor ). This too could run Mac in a pinch, at least the later versions.

Tip...
On any of these laptops, look for ones labeled "for parts", many times companies will only remove the HD. I've gotten systems dirt cheap this way ($40 Lenovos). Make sure it boots to bios, is not bios locked (Lenovo!) and that they include the drive caddy and cover or be prepared to buy them. Buy from someone with a good rep, assume the battery is toast. I only buy if I see the laptop I am buying in the photos, not a stock photo, and that it shows it has booted to bios. I also look them over well in the photos. One companies grade B is another companies grade D, and a small scratch on the center of the screen is different than a large scratch on the palmrest, so you want to know what you are getting not some computer illiterate lackey's assessment.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: jalaj on Wed, 20 April 2016, 19:26:40: Quote from: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:03:10
There's also options like this: http://www.dx.com/p/sata-to-2-sd-card-converter-adapter-green-194037

These will be dependent on the space in the HDD bay of the laptop, however. They make these for SD, and CF as well.

Go this route, leverage your SATA or mSATA port.

For example of uber density here's a 10x microsdxc to SATA adapter:
http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Memory-Card-Adapter-Converter/dp/B017QXZGR0
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 20 April 2016, 22:29:31: Quote from: jalaj on Wed, 20 April 2016, 19:26:40
Quote from: dgneo on Tue, 19 April 2016, 13:03:10
There's also options like this: http://www.dx.com/p/sata-to-2-sd-card-converter-adapter-green-194037

These will be dependent on the space in the HDD bay of the laptop, however. They make these for SD, and CF as well.

Go this route, leverage your SATA or mSATA port.

For example of uber density here's a 10x microsdxc to SATA adapter:
http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Memory-Card-Adapter-Converter/dp/B017QXZGR0
Every server admin who looked at that page just ran screaming out of the room or is trying to pick themselves up off the floor from laughing too hard.
A bunch of cheap, low write, high risk sdcards compiled into a striped (0) raid running on a $28 Chinese raid card.... What could possibly go wrong?!

As I stated above, raid zero leaves you vulnerable... ANY single card that fails takes down the entire raid, corrupting all data. Each card is a potential fail point. Yes, you can run a single card. You could probably buy a used Intel SSD for less than this and a 32gb sd card with FAR better performance, reliability and lifespan. probably uses less power too. There are some serious warning signs regarding features and limits as well, but I won't go into them unless someone really wants to know.

The model Dgneo listed might allow you to do software raid, but it seems to be a split channel sd to sata adapter, so while the OS will see both cards, bios will not. Because of this, I doubt it's bootable in bios. Remember, we are dealing a notebook bios system, these are always less full featured than desktop bios systems.

Pass on the raid system and save your sanity and money, raid is nowhere near as simple as it looks on the surface. Neither of those are meant for heavy or OS use.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 20 April 2016, 23:01:35: Just put Tails on an SD card and use a small/cheap ultrabook...that's it. Problem solved if you don't want persistence. Otherwise, something is going to be saved somewhere if you go any other (easy) route. RaspberryPi specific OSs and SDs work just like a HDD as far as R/W and persistence goes.
Title: Re: Is there such a thing as a laptop with internal sd-card / usb port?
Post by: dante on Thu, 21 April 2016, 18:20:54: Thanks for the additional info. I think I've decided to stick with LPS simply because it fits my goals better.

There was a lot of good information discussed that educated me on my next purchase. Thanks!