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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Marizen on Tue, 10 May 2016, 11:15:02

Title: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Marizen on Tue, 10 May 2016, 11:15:02
The reason I ask this question is I'm in the market for a new keyboard and I love how the WASD VP3 61-key looks. I love that I can custom order my keycap colors. I don't love that it doesn't have backlighting. I also wish there was a PBT option.

Then I got to thinking....do I really need it? Do I even use it at all? On my current keyboard (Logitech G710+) I have the lighting on all the time, but I don't think it really provides any benefit other than looks, and custom key colors may overthrow that.

Depending on what the general consensus is I will just order the WASD VP3. If it had backlighting I wouldn't even question it.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: mogo on Tue, 10 May 2016, 11:27:17
It's been a long time since I've used my backlit-compatible OEM caps, but without a doubt I still appreciate the LED backlighting on my board. I use my computer into the night and without any lights in the room on, having the glow contouring the keys is really helpful. I don't need to see the legends, I'm intimately familiar where everything is, it just helps to see where everything is in a general sense.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Elaeagnifolia on Tue, 10 May 2016, 11:28:15
As you mentioned, LED backlighting is really just an aesthetic to most people unless you're someone who works in the dark and the backlighting illuminates keys for you to press.

Another alternative, why not get a Vortex Poker with backlighting and then buy a set of custom keycaps from WASD (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keycap-set/61-key-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html)? From what I've heard about the WASD VP3 61-Key, it's pretty much a Poker as it was developed in collaboration with Vortex. A brand new Poker off mechanicalkeyboards.com is currently $134.00 while the custom keycaps are $45.00, so it is pricier than just the WASD VP3 $140. If you don't mind Used though, I'm sure you'd be able to find someone selling a Poker for cheaper than $134.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: chyros on Tue, 10 May 2016, 12:35:32
I don't use it. I think it might actually make it LESS visible.

It also looks rather tasteless in most cases, IMO :/ .
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Marizen on Tue, 10 May 2016, 12:38:29
Another alternative, why not get a Vortex Poker with backlighting and then buy a set of custom keycaps from WASD (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keycap-set/61-key-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html)?

I've looked into those as well, but all of the ones I've been able to find with lighting had a white backplate. On a black frame it just doesn't look right in my opinion. There are white-framed ones, but I'm still kind of on the fence about those. It's not that it looks bad, but black would match my setup much better. If Zowie made a white EC1-A then I'd just all over the white Pok3r  :p.

There's also the WASD CODE 61-key that is basically exactly the same as a backlit Pok3r, but that has a white backplate as well.

Then there's the KC60 that's on Massdrop right now. That has backlighting, PBT caps, and is considerably cheaper, but the top isn't flush like on the Pok3r and WASD.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Elaeagnifolia on Tue, 10 May 2016, 12:50:55
Another alternative, why not get a Vortex Poker with backlighting and then buy a set of custom keycaps from WASD (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keycap-set/61-key-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html)?

I've looked into those as well, but all of the ones I've been able to find with lighting had a white backplate. On a black frame it just doesn't look right in my opinion. There are white-framed ones, but I'm still kind of on the fence about those. It's not that it looks bad, but black would match my setup much better. If Zowie made a white EC1-A then I'd just all over the white Pok3r  :p.

There's also the WASD CODE 61-key that is basically exactly the same as a backlit Pok3r, but that has a white backplate as well.

Then there's the KC60 that's on Massdrop right now. That has backlighting, PBT caps, and is considerably cheaper, but the top isn't flush like on the Pok3r and WASD.

Most stock LED boards have white backplates to allow the light to shine better (Something about lowering the LED reflection and more even lighting), so not sure how common those are or how easily you'll be able to find an LED board with black backplate.

I've never had a KC60, so I'm not entirely sure about this, but if the top isn't flush, wouldn't that just be a matter of switching out the case for another case with a lower profile? Again, I've never owned a KC60 before, so I'm not sure if that'll work.

Another possible solution would be to build your own keyboard if you're comfortable with that. That way you can choose the exact case, switches, backplate, LED colors, etc. that you want for your setup.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Keycap on Tue, 10 May 2016, 14:25:09
Backlighting is actually a deal-breaker for me. I can't stand it. It's a gimmick at best, and really you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard anyways.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: mogo on Tue, 10 May 2016, 14:51:49
I don't stare at it as I type, it's just for reorienting at a glance after taking my hands off the keyboard to use the mouse, drink my coffee, whatever.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Marizen on Tue, 10 May 2016, 14:58:41
Most stock LED boards have white backplates to allow the light to shine better (Something about lowering the LED reflection and more even lighting), so not sure how common those are or how easily you'll be able to find an LED board with black backplate.

I've never had a KC60, so I'm not entirely sure about this, but if the top isn't flush, wouldn't that just be a matter of switching out the case for another case with a lower profile? Again, I've never owned a KC60 before, so I'm not sure if that'll work.

Another possible solution would be to build your own keyboard if you're comfortable with that. That way you can choose the exact case, switches, backplate, LED colors, etc. that you want for your setup.

Ya I've noticed that, especially on RGB boards. Some others (Razer BlackWidow Ultimate 2013 I believe) have a backplate that matches their LED colors. This wouldn't be an issue for me if it wasn't so noticeable.

I could switch out the case, but I'd really like to find an "ideal" keyboard, where I don't have to switch out parts and stuff. I think that's pretty much impossible though, just like I can't find an ideal mouse.

I would be comfortable putting one together if there was like a kit or something where I didn't have to do any soldering or having parts custom made. I'd also like to have it soon-ish (within a couple weeks). I don't really think it's an option all things considered.

I'm probably just gonna go with the VP3 or Pok3r with custom PBT caps. I type in low light occasionally, but never to the point where I can't see the keys. I'm just so used to having the LED's it's hard to imagine not having them lol.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Keycap on Tue, 10 May 2016, 15:31:01
I don't stare at it as I type, it's just for reorienting at a glance after taking my hands off the keyboard to use the mouse, drink my coffee, whatever.
That's why I use the homing bars.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Elaeagnifolia on Tue, 10 May 2016, 15:31:52
Ya I've noticed that, especially on RGB boards. Some others (Razer BlackWidow Ultimate 2013 I believe) have a backplate that matches their LED colors. This wouldn't be an issue for me if it wasn't so noticeable.

I could switch out the case, but I'd really like to find an "ideal" keyboard, where I don't have to switch out parts and stuff. I think that's pretty much impossible though, just like I can't find an ideal mouse.

I would be comfortable putting one together if there was like a kit or something where I didn't have to do any soldering or having parts custom made. I'd also like to have it soon-ish (within a couple weeks). I don't really think it's an option all things considered.

I'm probably just gonna go with the VP3 or Pok3r with custom PBT caps. I type in low light occasionally, but never to the point where I can't see the keys. I'm just so used to having the LED's it's hard to imagine not having them lol.

Switching out a case isn't too difficult with most 60%s as you're just removing 5 screws and then swapping the cases, so I think if you're looking for something more ideal, then this should be an option you keep in mind perhaps later down the road. :thumb:

As for making your own keyboard, you can source most parts and get them within a few weeks. There are a lot of soldering guides out there and practice soldering kits if you ever want to learn, but as someone who was once in your shoes, I completely understand not being comfortable in soldering your own board. If you ever do decided to go this route, soldering isn't -that- scary and is quite empowering when you realize you can customize your own board.

Another option you might consider is the KBParadise V60. The case and caps are inferior to the Pok3r of course since Plastic vs. Aluminum Case and ABS vs. PBT Caps, but I believe it has a black backplate (Not entirely sure on this as I own a non-LED model). If the case and caps matter more though to you though and you don't feel like swapping them, then this will not be the stock keyboard you're looking for either.

Also, are readily-created custom PBT caps a thing? If you're looking for your very own special custom keycap set, AFAIK, the only people who do single-order custom keycaps at a affordable price (WASD, MaxKB) only do ABS custom keycaps.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Moistgun on Tue, 10 May 2016, 16:19:34
I can say that I got into it when I built my first board, and that interest quickly diminished.

There are some times where I have it on, but 9 times out of 10 I don't.
Even if I keep it on, I don't use any of the modes other than static lighting at a low brightness.

Its too bright turned all the way up, and all the modes are just distracting if you are actually doing any typing.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: klennkellon on Tue, 10 May 2016, 16:36:29
I don't really need it, and because I mainly like buckling springs and tactile ALPS I don't really have the option anyway.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Tue, 10 May 2016, 16:56:06
I'm a backlighting fan, especially RGB. I like to have something to play with when I'm thinking, and flashy backlighting modes (especially reactive ones) fit the bill.

It's worth noting that, if you do have backlighting, it's usually possible to turn it off. You might not even be paying extra for it, depending on how the economies of scale work out.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Keycap on Tue, 10 May 2016, 17:18:08
I'm a backlighting fan, especially RGB. I like to have something to play with when I'm thinking, and flashy backlighting modes (especially reactive ones) fit the bill.

It's worth noting that, if you do have backlighting, it's usually possible to turn it off. You might not even be paying extra for it, depending on how the economies of scale work out.
When my QuickFire TK had LEDs (I desoldered them), you couldn't turn them completely off. Yes, there was an on/off function, but the arrow keys on the numpad would still stay lit until you pressed Num Lock. So if you don't have Num Lock on, even with all of the LEDs turned off, the arrow keys still light up. Makes absolutely no sense to me. And when I'm swapping switches, the LEDs only add to the tediousness.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Marizen on Tue, 10 May 2016, 17:48:48
When my QuickFire TK had LEDs (I desoldered them), you couldn't turn them completely off. Yes, there was an on/off function, but the arrow keys on the numpad would still stay lit until you pressed Num Lock. So if you don't have Num Lock on, even with all of the LEDs turned off, the arrow keys still light up. Makes absolutely no sense to me. And when I'm swapping switches, the LEDs only add to the tediousness.

That's weird. Every keyboard I've had with backlighting you could turn completely off as far as I know.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Moistgun on Tue, 10 May 2016, 18:54:57
When my QuickFire TK had LEDs (I desoldered them), you couldn't turn them completely off. Yes, there was an on/off function, but the arrow keys on the numpad would still stay lit until you pressed Num Lock. So if you don't have Num Lock on, even with all of the LEDs turned off, the arrow keys still light up. Makes absolutely no sense to me. And when I'm swapping switches, the LEDs only add to the tediousness.

That's weird. Every keyboard I've had with backlighting you could turn completely off as far as I know.

That is definitely one weird board.

It has alot of unnecessary quirks.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: mind_funeral on Tue, 10 May 2016, 21:03:20
Keyboards are highly  AESTHETIC  pieces of peripherals so ultimately it's up to you.  I like backlighting because I'm ****e at typing and I'm too stubborn to learn to type properly.  I personally don't like RGB animations (beathe, pulse, rain) but I wouldn't mind RGB on my %60 to change the all my LEDs without having to spend $10 on leds, cutting leads, and plugging them into my SIP sockets.

I should add I turn my backlighting off when it's bright in my room.  When I'm at work I like my bland Topre Type Heaven.  I wouldn't want flashy lights at my desk.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Zar7 on Wed, 11 May 2016, 01:37:35
Well the first time I got interested in mechanical keyboards, I fell in love with two things:
1) Backlighting (especially vibrant RGB)
2) Cherry MX Blues (or any clicky keys like MX Greens and Razer Greens)

Then, after some time passed, I began to migrate to my current preferred switch type: Cherry MX Reds (for both typing and gaming).
Occasionally I use Browns, but I find my interest in clicky switches diminishing as time goes by.

Same with backlighting. To me, they serve little to no purpose apart from giving you that awesome visual aesthetics. Then again, if the keyboard is already attractive without the LEDs, you will find yourself having no need for backlighting whatsoever.

My current mechanical keyboard collection consists of Leopold FC750R, QFR, QF Stealth, Rosewill RK9000V2, and Pok3r.
See a pattern there? Yep, all with no backlighting. 
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: demik on Wed, 11 May 2016, 01:38:47
only use it to show the world how much of a noob u can be
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: xtrafrood on Wed, 11 May 2016, 04:58:35
So far I only like the kind of LEDs that show me information like CPI/DPI/settings, and things like that. Since I've only used mechanical keyboards without backlighting I can't really say that I would make use of backlighting but I wouldn't be apposed to trying it out. I'd probably turn off the keyboard LEDs because my LED monitor usually gives off sufficient light in dimly lit areas.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: SBJ on Wed, 11 May 2016, 09:43:39
So far I only like the kind of LEDs that show me information like CPI/DPI/settings, and things like that. Since I've only used mechanical keyboards without backlighting I can't really say that I would make use of backlighting but I wouldn't be apposed to trying it out. I'd probably turn off the keyboard LEDs because my LED monitor usually gives off sufficient light in dimly lit areas.
I agree with this. My daily driver is backlit but it's not really powerful enough so I can actually see the legends on the keys in the dark (side printed) so I don't see the point to be honest.
But the capslock lights up when toggled on and I love that.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 11 May 2016, 11:03:14
I hate backlight in like 99% cases.

First of all, anything even remotely close to blue light is evil.

I recently got a backlit (luckily white/red and well implemented) keyboard w/ Cherry MX to give the feature one more try, and it was terribly distracting even around the edge of my field of view.

I very much prefer good doubleshots with a nice font, including the cheap non-backlit WoB Vortex PBT DS.

Surprisingly though, I don't really mind (dimmed!) backlight in high-end scissor switch keyboards from Logitech, i.e., K740, K800 etc. But that's the only case. Otherwise, I even cover/remove stuff like NumLock indicator LEDs.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 11 May 2016, 11:04:45
Man....all these haters. I like it 'cause it looks cool. Nothing more. I don't need it since I can touch type but it's cool to see. Nothing wrong with a little aesthetics.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: ashraf on Wed, 11 May 2016, 11:09:01
No, I don't even like having those fancy acrylic cases that gives nice soft diffused lights.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zslane on Wed, 11 May 2016, 12:49:51
I can't stand backlighting, especially RGB backlighting. Maybe it's because I'm not 9 years old anymore.

Sure, I like to know if I've accidentally hit CapsLock (or accidentally toggled NumLock off), but other than that, I don't want my keyboards lighting up in any way. I don't type in the dark very often (and I touch type like a pro, so that's not much of an issue), so backlighting would be worthless at best, annoying and fugly at worst. I even sorta wish Vortex had figured out another way to indicate which layer is active on the Pok3r, cuz even that one LED alone is annoying as f**k to me.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: tintoret on Wed, 11 May 2016, 13:33:03
I don't. I initially thought lighting was all really garish and tacky, but some of the boards on here make it work really well. I might try putting in some subtle lighting on my next board.

I can't imagine a scenario where lighting would be necessary or even particularly useful, but if its done right it can be damn good looking.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: TopreFan333 on Wed, 11 May 2016, 13:33:36
Backlighting is actually a deal-breaker for me. I can't stand it. It's a gimmick at best, and really you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard anyways.

I like it when it's done on a very very restrained level (like on my MacBook's keyboard) - but 99.9% of the ones I've seen on forums just look like:

[attach=1]
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Saiph on Wed, 11 May 2016, 13:35:01
Since I touch type and use my computer with my lights on, I only use backlighting for aesthetics. If I don't think it looks good with a particular keycap set or keyboard then I just turn it off.

There aren't really any backlit keycap sets I like.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: dtaflorida on Wed, 11 May 2016, 14:45:34
Reactive lighting when I'm using it. Rainbow wave when I'm not.
Now if I could only tie the lighting effects to windows state. Razer offer an SDK, Corsair have some user's publishing unofficial library APIs. I'd be down to program it myself but I don't really care to buy either of those brands.
Logitech certainly could offer something, they had that crazy keyboard wall display.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Floody on Wed, 11 May 2016, 14:49:39
I only use it when I'm bored or when I need a bit of additional light in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: LiquidEvilGaming on Wed, 11 May 2016, 15:16:30
Honestly if it's there i'll use it with NON backlit compatible keycaps as the shine through in the cracks looks alright IMO, but given i am a FIRM believer if you can't touch type you have no business buying a mechanical keyboard i don't see it as a deal breaker in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: SKD on Wed, 11 May 2016, 15:21:12
When I got my Shine 5 back in March the backlighting helped me spot the keys when I looked down, my desk area is quite dark as my shadow casts over the keyboard. But thanks to typeracer and 10fastfingers I can now pretty much touch type and rarely look down. I only have the backlighting on now just to light up my desk area a bit and when I feel like putting on a light show lol. But I still would like backlighting in my next board. I did just order a full set of blank keys so maybe that will help me touch type fully and probably make me think backlighting isn't needed at all.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Marizen on Wed, 11 May 2016, 20:57:40
I ended up going with backlighting just because I'm so used to having it. I don't need it to help type or anything, I just think it looks good when done tastefully.

I got the WASD CODE 61 backlit with MX Blues. I was going to get the Pok3r from Amazon, but it was out of stock. Kind of a shame because it would have been nice to receive everything at the same time (I also bought a mouse, mousepad, dampeners, and wrist pad from Amazon).

I still don't really care for the white backplate, but since the options are kinda limited I'd rather have the lighting. To help everything kinda blend I bought a black mousepad that has a small white logo.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 12 May 2016, 00:09:52
Do I use it, not really.
It's nice to have, but really it's just not a big deal, and that's the best I can say about it.

I have yet to see any keycaps with backlighting that looked good, most have terrible fonts. Worse, a GREAT many of them are of poor standards (very thin outer coat), I wore through one cheaper set in a week.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 12 May 2016, 00:37:13
I use it on my CODE at work.

I sit in a darkish area, and for typing passwords and weird codey stuff it helps to be able to actually see the keys from time to time.

Plain white backlighting on an otherwise black keyboard looks reasonably professional in the workplace environment.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 12 May 2016, 01:50:17
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)

hell yea
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:21:36
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)


hell yea

That blue is certainly NOT obnoxious!
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: xtrafrood on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:25:48
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)


hell yea

That blue is certainly NOT obnoxious!

I have to agree with you, it reminds of yummy Italian ice
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: SBJ on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:32:27
Man....all these haters. I like it 'cause it looks cool. Nothing more. I don't need it since I can touch type but it's cool to see. Nothing wrong with a little aesthetics.
No definitely not, to each their own. That is true about all things really, you can't argue what other people like. It's just for me, personally there is very little appeal.
I totally respect other people might love it.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: chyros on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:40:02
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)


hell yea
That reminds me of a swimming pool xD .
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:43:22
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)


hell yea
That reminds me of a swimming pool xD .

It reminds me of, er, a keyboard with blue backlighting turned up.

Sometimes my imagination goes to bed early.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:44:02
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)


hell yea
That reminds me of a swimming pool xD .

It reminds me of, er, a keyboard with blue backlighting turned up.

Sometimes my imagination goes to bed early.

It reminds me of Sifo's keyboards.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:56:57
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/23QuKlM.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7q4RBFS.jpg)


hell yea
That reminds me of a swimming pool xD .

It reminds me of, er, a keyboard with blue backlighting turned up.

Sometimes my imagination goes to bed early.

It reminds me of Sifo's keyboards.

Yeah, that's it - that's where I've seen that before!

Your avatar looks somehow familiar ...
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: chryos1029 on Thu, 12 May 2016, 08:11:40
Before buying my first MK, I thought backlighting is important.
After buying my first MK, NO BACKLIGHTING PLS.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 12 May 2016, 16:28:31
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway
hell yea
Have trouble sleeping?
Blue light is terrible for your sleep patterns.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 12 May 2016, 17:15:38
backlighting is a n00ber thing..

Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: NewbieOneKenobi on Thu, 12 May 2016, 20:54:20
I type in dim light a lot, sometimes with the monitor being the only source of light plus some street lights outside the window. I don't really care, though with me being a self taught kinda touch typist and not someone properly taught and skilled, hitting individual keys for shortcuts as opposed to normal typing can be a problem, or remembering which number keys less popular punctuation marks are at. Backlighting removes the problem. Also, seeing contours and rows etc., not just characters, can help if you aren't a 100%-trained touch-typist. RGB can be useful for gaming — just use colour coding, and you're set. Again, hitting something like [ in a game is more challenging than using it in a sentence or line of code.

So I prefer no backlighting but if won't categorically refuse to buy a keyboard that has it, especially if you can switch it off.

backlighting is a n00ber thing..

That's a way to put it. ;)

Have trouble sleeping?
Blue light is terrible for your sleep patterns.

Depends which. My father uses some sort of blue lamp to help him fall asleep. True story, I saw the thing last time I visited him.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 12 May 2016, 23:34:16
nope I just have backlighting cuz I like being obnoxious, all my caps are blanks anyway
hell yea
Have trouble sleeping?
Blue light is terrible for your sleep patterns.

I've had trouble sleeping long before i had blue LEDs in everything lol. I keep them off anyway for the most part. At least gunnars help with blue light :/ but I have the clear lenses now.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: kasakka on Fri, 13 May 2016, 06:57:49
I find backlighting really only useful in the winter when it's really dark outside and you happen to have a keyboard with dark keys. For example I had issues with hitting the right keys in the dark on my non-backlit, almost all black QPAD MK50. Moved to a white Topre Realforce and that issue went away. Now I have a custom 60% with white/purple keycaps and the light keys are still fairly easy to see in the dark even though I do have backlight on the keys available should I want.

Overall it's not a big deal if you prefer light colored keycaps.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: kekman on Fri, 13 May 2016, 09:33:23
i hate backlit keycaps


leds that provide a soft glow underneath the keycaps (not into your ****ing eyes) or on the underside of the keyboard are the only ones that should be legal
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Keycap on Fri, 13 May 2016, 15:14:28
Backlighting may be some sort of aesthetic thing for people, but for me it's about simplicity. This may also explain why I'm not a big fan of artisan keycaps.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: eohmiller on Fri, 13 May 2016, 15:24:23
Eh, only if I'm doing number input on a 60% do I even look at my keyboard. So not really. I find it has to be VERY tasteful for me to like any sort of backlighting.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: SBJ on Fri, 13 May 2016, 20:49:50
i hate backlit keycaps


leds that provide a soft glow underneath the keycaps (not into your ****ing eyes) or on the underside of the keyboard are the only ones that should be legal
*bows head in shame* I'm using a backlit keycap right now. Didn't think I was going to like it. But I LOVE IT.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Fri, 13 May 2016, 22:59:38
I touch type and don't necessarily have a need for backlighting.  However, I often use the board in dim lighting and I find it useful especially if I want to press a few keys with one hand.  I kind of only find the keys with both hands on the home row.  Backlit boards will have several degrees of brightness. I find very bright light to be distracting.  Most backlit boards will have ABS caps.  While I do find PBT to be more pleasurable to type on, I find the keys feel more responsive with ABS caps, so my preference once again has gone to ABS (it changes from time to time).
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: Powerglove89 on Sat, 14 May 2016, 19:38:16
Pretty much anything that makes a keyboard more complicated I don't like. Don't own one with LED's and dont plan to.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 15 May 2016, 02:10:19
Backlighting is actually a deal-breaker for me. I can't stand it. It's a gimmick at best, and really you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard anyways.

If you like a board the LED should not change you decision.  It can be turned on and off as you please.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: davkol on Sun, 15 May 2016, 02:18:23
Backlight adds complexity. More things, that can break. Once something breaks, they keyboard loses market value. It matters, if you ever resell/trade keyboards.

In addition, (in case of through-hole LEDs in [MX-compatible] switches) there are more things to desolder, when replacing switches, and diodes have to be desoldered before opening switches (if the plate supports it or there isn't any, i.e., switches are only PCB mounted).
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: ander on Sun, 15 May 2016, 03:29:06
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 15 May 2016, 04:56:50
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.

Or ... so many gaming peripherals, and indeed gaming PCs, have lots of lighting - mouse lighting, case lighting, front panel lighting, speaker lighting - it was inevitable that keyboards would including lighting to, in order to appear to the gaming market.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: SBJ on Sun, 15 May 2016, 06:20:20
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.

Or ... so many gaming peripherals, and indeed gaming PCs, have lots of lighting - mouse lighting, case lighting, front panel lighting, speaker lighting - it was inevitable that keyboards would including lighting to, in order to appear to the gaming market.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a mouse mat with leds too, I think it was a razer,
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: kekman on Sun, 15 May 2016, 06:34:09
it's pretty smart though, when i was 10-12 i was into razer, even though i had no idea what anything meant such as "mechanical" or "optical sensor"... all i knew was that it had lights......

still though, lots of adults fall for the con for some reason
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: xtrafrood on Sun, 15 May 2016, 07:13:48
I look down at my keyboard when I have to press 2-3 key macros for some programs. I taught myself a bit of html before I learned to touch type and I think that really messed me up. If I owned a desk with a keyboard tray I think I would rather have a backlit keyboard instead of a desk lamp. But like I said before, I've never owned a keyboard with backlight functionality so I could probably live without it
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zcmy on Wed, 18 May 2016, 21:37:08
My work board is non-backlit, but my home board is backlit. What I tend to use it for is to confirm keypresses (backlight only lights up when keys are pressed), as all my password entries are complex and in the bash style, which means I have no clue how many characters i put in, so I can't really guesstimate where I went wrong. So if I type a password wrong, I'll know because of the key brightness (10 ticks) compared to what brightness it should be at the point where i finish typing a password.  So, for example, my password is "Hunter2" by the time I've inputted the password completely, the H is at brightness 2, the shift key is at brightness 2, the U key is at brightness 3,the n key at brightness 4, the t key at brightness 5, the e key at brightness 6, the r key at brightness 7, and the 2 key at brightness 9. Otherwise, my backlight is off.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: NightCabbage on Wed, 18 May 2016, 23:56:05
I do not need backlighting. I always use my computer with the lamp on in the room :)

Which is good, because all of the good mech boards do not have backlighting! (the switches I'm looking at, anyway... I don't like Cherry)
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: phosphoric on Thu, 19 May 2016, 13:24:12
My work board is non-backlit, but my home board is backlit. What I tend to use it for is to confirm keypresses (backlight only lights up when keys are pressed), as all my password entries are complex and in the bash style, which means I have no clue how many characters i put in, so I can't really guesstimate where I went wrong. So if I type a password wrong, I'll know because of the key brightness (10 ticks) compared to what brightness it should be at the point where i finish typing a password.  So, for example, my password is "Hunter2" by the time I've inputted the password completely, the H is at brightness 2, the shift key is at brightness 2, the U key is at brightness 3,the n key at brightness 4, the t key at brightness 5, the e key at brightness 6, the r key at brightness 7, and the 2 key at brightness 9. Otherwise, my backlight is off.

does your keyboard automatically reset brightness levels after a while or do those letters stay lit until you manually reset?
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zcmy on Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:07:49
does your keyboard automatically reset brightness levels after a while or do those letters stay lit until you manually reset?

It currently has two different settings. The first one is where it goes down in brightness every time a key is pressed (which is the one i prefer using).I screwed with the firmware on my home board so that it would only fade when keystrokes were inputted. However, all keys will reset if there is not input for more than 5 seconds or 1000polls, whichever is quicker.  The other one is the natural fade. Natural fade does 7-8 ticks per second and goes faster the faster i type.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: phosphoric on Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:12:26
does your keyboard automatically reset brightness levels after a while or do those letters stay lit until you manually reset?

It currently has two different settings. The first one is where it goes down in brightness every time a key is pressed (which is the one i prefer using).I screwed with the firmware on my home board so that it would only fade when keystrokes were inputted. However, all keys will reset if there is not input for more than 5 seconds or 1000polls, whichever is quicker.  The other one is the natural fade. Natural fade does 7-8 ticks per second and goes faster the faster i type.
this sounds super cool. what pcb are you using?
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zcmy on Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:50:56
does your keyboard automatically reset brightness levels after a while or do those letters stay lit until you manually reset?

It currently has two different settings. The first one is where it goes down in brightness every time a key is pressed (which is the one i prefer using).I screwed with the firmware on my home board so that it would only fade when keystrokes were inputted. However, all keys will reset if there is not input for more than 5 seconds or 1000polls, whichever is quicker.  The other one is the natural fade. Natural fade does 7-8 ticks per second and goes faster the faster i type.
this sounds super cool. what pcb are you using?

I'm actually using a mostly stock ducky shine 3 tkl. I had someone screw with the firmware updates exe so that we could inject custom code into the firmware. I know it's not safe but since this is probably the only board that I'm going to keep with me until it's FUBAR, I decided to have a little fun with it.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: phosphoric on Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:52:07
does your keyboard automatically reset brightness levels after a while or do those letters stay lit until you manually reset?

It currently has two different settings. The first one is where it goes down in brightness every time a key is pressed (which is the one i prefer using).I screwed with the firmware on my home board so that it would only fade when keystrokes were inputted. However, all keys will reset if there is not input for more than 5 seconds or 1000polls, whichever is quicker.  The other one is the natural fade. Natural fade does 7-8 ticks per second and goes faster the faster i type.
this sounds super cool. what pcb are you using?

I'm actually using a mostly stock ducky shine 3 tkl. I had someone screw with the firmware updates exe so that we could inject custom code into the firmware. I know it's not safe but since this is probably the only board that I'm going to keep with me until it's FUBAR, I decided to have a little fun with it.
this is the sort of thing that makes me love this community ahhaha
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: C5Allroad on Thu, 19 May 2016, 22:23:56
Back-lighting is almost useless.
Unless you're looking down when typing I think it would bother you. The glare from the light fatigues the eyes quickly.
Most of time the lights are off. Blue light is hard on the eyes in the dark. F.lux is great on windows. I can't get it to work on ubuntu yet....
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Fri, 20 May 2016, 02:42:23
Ya I've noticed that, especially on RGB boards. Some others (Razer BlackWidow Ultimate 2013 I believe) have a backplate that matches their LED colors. This wouldn't be an issue for me if it wasn't so noticeable.

I could switch out the case, but I'd really like to find an "ideal" keyboard, where I don't have to switch out parts and stuff. I think that's pretty much impossible though, just like I can't find an ideal mouse.

I would be comfortable putting one together if there was like a kit or something where I didn't have to do any soldering or having parts custom made. I'd also like to have it soon-ish (within a couple weeks). I don't really think it's an option all things considered.

I'm probably just gonna go with the VP3 or Pok3r with custom PBT caps. I type in low light occasionally, but never to the point where I can't see the keys. I'm just so used to having the LED's it's hard to imagine not having them lol.

Switching out a case isn't too difficult with most 60%s as you're just removing 5 screws and then swapping the cases, so I think if you're looking for something more ideal, then this should be an option you keep in mind perhaps later down the road. :thumb:

As for making your own keyboard, you can source most parts and get them within a few weeks. There are a lot of soldering guides out there and practice soldering kits if you ever want to learn, but as someone who was once in your shoes, I completely understand not being comfortable in soldering your own board. If you ever do decided to go this route, soldering isn't -that- scary and is quite empowering when you realize you can customize your own board.

Another option you might consider is the KBParadise V60. The case and caps are inferior to the Pok3r of course since Plastic vs. Aluminum Case and ABS vs. PBT Caps, but I believe it has a black backplate (Not entirely sure on this as I own a non-LED model). If the case and caps matter more though to you though and you don't feel like swapping them, then this will not be the stock keyboard you're looking for either.

Also, are readily-created custom PBT caps a thing? If you're looking for your very own special custom keycap set, AFAIK, the only people who do single-order custom keycaps at a affordable price (WASD, MaxKB) only do ABS custom keycaps.
I can confirm that the v60 uses a black backplate instead of a white on the LED models.  This makes the legends nice and visible, but there is no light leakage or underglow from the LED's, which I hate.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: davkol on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:00:12
Back-lighting is almost useless.
Unless you're looking down when typing I think it would bother you. The glare from the light fatigues the eyes quickly.
Most of time the lights are off. Blue light is hard on the eyes in the dark. F.lux is great on windows. I can't get it to work on ubuntu yet....
Redshift (http://jonls.dk/redshift/) is actually free and works much better on GNU/Linux.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: ander on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:14:36
When you think about it, you type best when you're not looking at your keyboard. So why would you add distracting multicolored, tricked-out lights to it? Would you add them to your monitor, too, to distract you from the work you're doing, the website you're viewing, or the game you're playing?

Let's face it: Backlighting a keyboard is just a sales gimmick. For some reason, primates—which includes people—are fascinated by glittery objects. (It's why we think diamonds, gold, and other glittery stuff is so cool.) If it weren't for that, pretty blinking LEDs under key switches wouldn't mean anything at all. They'd just be lights, and no one would put them there because it'd make as much sense as putting pickles in your socks.

That said, go ahead and buy keyboards that light up and do disco effects. It's a pretty random kind of thing, though, ultimately.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: raymogi on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:22:50
Never unless I'm in total darkness and I need to look for that one particular number.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zcmy on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:29:20
Never unless I'm in total darkness and I need to look for that one particular number.

Huh. Never thought of that. Do you have the centering nubs on f and j? or are you using a non-qwerty layout? I have a general idea of where my keys are. I normally use the edge of the board as a reference. Or are you on a smaller board?
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: raymogi on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:30:19
Never unless I'm in total darkness and I need to look for that one particular number.

Huh. Never thought of that. Do you have the centering nubs on f and j? or are you using a non-qwerty layout? I have a general idea of where my keys are. I normally use the edge of the board as a reference. Or are you on a smaller board?

I know where every letters are even without looking but numbers I still have trouble with lol.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zcmy on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:34:14
Never unless I'm in total darkness and I need to look for that one particular number.

Huh. Never thought of that. Do you have the centering nubs on f and j? or are you using a non-qwerty layout? I have a general idea of where my keys are. I normally use the edge of the board as a reference. Or are you on a smaller board?

I know where every letters are even without looking but numbers I still have trouble with lol.

Eh, that's pretty normal, even with mutliple keybvoards with the same layout. I still haven't learned my way around my ducky, even though i've had it for almost a year.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: RobotMalcolmX on Fri, 20 May 2016, 07:38:15
For the most part, I'm not a huge fan of backlighting on my boards. My first board had it, but the two I've purchased since didn't. I almost feel like it's too much, even on low settings.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: C5Allroad on Sat, 21 May 2016, 11:14:20
Back-lighting is almost useless.
Unless you're looking down when typing I think it would bother you. The glare from the light fatigues the eyes quickly.
Most of time the lights are off. Blue light is hard on the eyes in the dark. F.lux is great on windows. I can't get it to work on ubuntu yet....
Redshift (http://jonls.dk/redshift/) is actually free and works much better on GNU/Linux.
You're an amazing person. Thank you  :p
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: khirin on Sat, 21 May 2016, 20:00:02
My very first mech was the logitech g710+ with white backlighting.  Since I am a touch typist I never looked at any keys under my fingers. After only a few months, the keycaps started to shine, oily and I didn't feel comfortable touching them anymore. I ended up by using PBT keycaps ever since, which usually don't allow backlighting. So, backlighting has never been the feature I care for my later purchased boards.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 22 May 2016, 03:24:57
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.

Or ... so many gaming peripherals, and indeed gaming PCs, have lots of lighting - mouse lighting, case lighting, front panel lighting, speaker lighting - it was inevitable that keyboards would including lighting to, in order to appear to the gaming market.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a mouse mat with leds too, I think it was a razer,

http://www.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-mouse-mats/razer-firefly

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: SBJ on Sun, 22 May 2016, 08:31:08
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.

Or ... so many gaming peripherals, and indeed gaming PCs, have lots of lighting - mouse lighting, case lighting, front panel lighting, speaker lighting - it was inevitable that keyboards would including lighting to, in order to appear to the gaming market.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a mouse mat with leds too, I think it was a razer,

http://www.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-mouse-mats/razer-firefly

(Attachment Link)
I'll never understand the appeal of that. I don't judge people who do (too harshly) but I just, personally, don't get it.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: zcmy on Sun, 22 May 2016, 09:42:30
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.

Or ... so many gaming peripherals, and indeed gaming PCs, have lots of lighting - mouse lighting, case lighting, front panel lighting, speaker lighting - it was inevitable that keyboards would including lighting to, in order to appear to the gaming market.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a mouse mat with leds too, I think it was a razer,

http://www.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-mouse-mats/razer-firefly

(Attachment Link)
I'll never understand the appeal of that. I don't judge people who do (too harshly) but I just, personally, don't get it.

Well, gotta have all the matching colours, man. Everything's got a theme to it.
Title: Re: Do You Make Use of Backlighting?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 23 May 2016, 06:02:01
Think about it for a minute: A keyboard is an input device where you press one key at a time. So use it most efficiently, you must learn to type without thinking about the keys you're pressing, the same way you learn to ride a bike by not thinking about staying balanced or which foot is up or down. To use a KB well, the last place you want to be looking is as the KB.

Manufacturers know that keyboard backlighting is a senseless gimmick. But it always sucks in a certain number of people because primates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate)—of which humans are a member—are naturally drawn to bright, glittery objects.

This is why we place such high values on things like gold, silver and gemstones. If we didn't have this meaningless fascination for glitter, those things wouldn't be anything special—and something like a KB with flashy disco lighting would be considered a thing of comedy.

Or ... so many gaming peripherals, and indeed gaming PCs, have lots of lighting - mouse lighting, case lighting, front panel lighting, speaker lighting - it was inevitable that keyboards would including lighting to, in order to appear to the gaming market.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a mouse mat with leds too, I think it was a razer,

http://www.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-mouse-mats/razer-firefly

(Attachment Link)
I'll never understand the appeal of that. I don't judge people who do (too harshly) but I just, personally, don't get it.

I wouldn't get one, but I can appreciate that someone who likes light leaking out of every opening and window in their PC, mouse and keyboard would naturally want light leaking out of everything else too.